Why are some men so adverse to their woman making her own money?

January 21, 2009

Stock, everyone can make it to college, as long as they're within a reasonable intelligence quota and not mentally challenged (no sarcasm intended). This is where pragmatism and understanding your strengths and weaknesses comes into play.

Trial, you do realize there are many adults who still cannot read and/or write?

Let's pretend the highest salary you can possibly make is $40K per annum. What stopping you from supplementing that income with a second job if the one you're in has topped out? So you end up making $60K and working 75 hours a week for years. How different is this with the career person that makes $60K, working 60 - 80 hours to establish themselves?

How about your 1st job? When you are full-time salaried employee, your employer generally expects you to be available on your off days or for longer hours.

The next question to address is why anyone would stay in a $40K per annum job if they can self-improve with some night courses. No one forces anyone to stay in a dead-end job.

Because not everyone wants to constantly progress in their career. They may be happy making less because they in fact don't have to work 60+ hours a week.

Oh, you have a family to support. Why did you have that family on $40K/annum? Because it was YOUR choice in life to do so.

So should we disallow people who don't have the financial means from having children?

January 21, 2009

That's not at ALL what she said. She said that was your choice, meaning you now suck it up and eat out less, go to the movies less, etc. or wifey gets a job.

Yes, that's exactly it.

If someone is happy in their $40 - $60K job, as previously expressed, I'm sincerely happy for them. But...this means they need to be realistic in their expectations. They've given up their ability to have it all, which is where it started from and where my responses come from.

Your life is your own. You make personal choices throughout your life. Taking the easy road or giving up partway, are life choices.

If you're not happy with it, improve it. If this means taking night courses, do it.

January 21, 2009

Yes, that's exactly it.

If someone is happy in their $40 - $60K job, as previously expressed, I'm sincerely happy for them. But...this means they need to be realistic in their expectations. They've given up their ability to have it all, which is where it started from and where my responses come from.

Your life is your own. You make personal choices throughout your life. Taking the easy road or giving up partway, are life choices.

If you're not happy with it, improve it. If this means taking night courses, do it.

I agree, just wanted to see how far you were going to take that.

January 21, 2009

Short answer to the crux of this thread: Control

I have control in my life. Yes, I work, pay my own bills, make all deicisons concerning my life, but this does NOT mean I want to control anyone else, and certainly not in a relationship! That's why the women in this thread keep saying things like compromise, give and take, reciprocal, etc. Just because we have careers does not mean we're cold fish or closed off from considering domestic responsibility!

What's frustrating about this and your earlier post is that you've been creating an artificial ranking on women's choices. Nobody is saying that there's anything wrong with being a mother/wife. But you started this brouhaha by devaluing professional careers for women, and by saying that being an excellent mother/wife is "better."

It's false to pretend that when women are defending their own choices, they're somehow devaluing others'. You are the one who is doing the devaluing here of peoples' choices, and it's intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise. Stop it.

Absolutely. The thing is, being a wife and mother today more than likely comes AFTER a woman has lived some on her own, establishing an identity, understanding who she is and being responsible for herself. However, this woman CAN and DOES make the transition to wife and mother.

January 21, 2009

I agree, just wanted to see how far you were going to take that.

If you go back to the post you originally quoted, you'll find this at the bottom of it.

If you're happy in a $40K/annum job, then that's great and I mean it sincerely. Just own it.

January 21, 2009

That's not what I meant, Audrey. I work and pay my own bills, but I do NOT want to control my man.

I meant men don't want their women making money so THEY can control their WIVES.

I know. I was just expanding on it.

January 21, 2009

If you go back to the post you originally quoted, you'll find this at the bottom of it.

I prefer to cherry pick your posts and ignore certain parts. :laugh:

January 21, 2009

Why would anyone want to give up their personal comfort for HIS future family?

I guess I need to really break it down for you. First, my wife and our children are my family just as I and our children are HER family. I can't believe I have to explain simple family relationships to you.

Second what about never having to work for a wage again is giving up personal comfort? Don't blow smoke up my ass, I take care of all my own house hold chores now and it's a cakewalk, we have machines to do about 90% of the work it's not like we're in some developing country where we have to wash clothes by hand and bathe in cold water.

January 21, 2009

Why would anyone want to give up their personal comfort for HIS future family?

I believe Sara quoted on how pompous this sounded, and I agree. HIS future family, not OUR future family. It sounds very ME oriented. Probably goes back to the OP using the word "serve" a little too often for comfort.

Second what about never having to work for a wage again is giving up personal comfort? Don't blow smoke up my ass, I take care of all my own house hold chores now and it's a cakewalk, we have machines to do about 90% of the work it's not like we're in some developing country where we have to wash clothes by hand and bathe in cold water.

Personal comfort is defined individually. Communication is so important when defining these levels. I think this can be where the independent woman can be misunderstood.

January 21, 2009

I believe Sara quoted on how pompous this sounded, and I agree. HIS future family, not OUR future family. It sounds very ME oriented. Probably goes back to the OP using the word "serve" a little too often for comfort.

Oh my God. I serve her and she as my complement and partner serves me. It's easy to understand and also a very loving and generous arrangement for a couple to have. Dad and Mom have been doing this for close to 50 years.

Personal comfort is defined individually. Communication is so important when defining these levels. I think this can be where the independent woman can be misunderstood.

Please explain how 'you never have to earn a wage again, just be a full time mom' is uncomfortable. I really don't get it.

January 21, 2009

Oh my God. I serve her and she as my complement and partner serves me. It's easy to understand and also a very loving and generous arrangement for a couple to have. Dad and Mom have been doing this for close to 50 years.

Yes, you say this, but this is not what the OP was giving off through his initial discussion. It has been what many of us have been trying to convey, so thanks for supporting our sentiment.

Please explain how 'you never have to earn a wage again, just be a full time mom' is uncomfortable. I really don't get it.

Because I may ENJOY venturing out of the house to learn and experience through a skill that I have and cultivated. It isn't only about making a paycheck. Being provided for is not the end-all, be-all of my existence. This should not be assumed as something that would bring automatic comfort to a married woman with children.

January 21, 2009

Sorry. I misunderstood.

I also agree that "back in the day" women went RIGHT from high school and their pink and white bedroom with the canopy bed and vanity into the home of their husband where they happily (or not so happily) remained barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen.

I got news for ya guys. We aren't living in a "Leave it to Beaver" world any more. Today's woman can DO IT ALL BABY!

We were never living in a Leave it to Beaver world, except on tv.

Child labor laws were put in place in the 1800's because there was child labor. Poor women have always been part of the workforce - cleaning ladies, maids, housekeepers, cooks, and teachers. The poorest also worked in sewing factories, etc., all those places children were banned from working by the child labor laws. And during WW2, even "middle class" women who had not worked outside the home, entered the workforce in factories as well as offices as secretaries. Women worked in the 50's too, and women secretaries became more common.

What has changed starting in the 70's, is the type of work women are doing these days - the doors are open to many, many more careers. Now, it is possible for women to support themselves quite well, and many do so. Now, it is also necessary for many families to include two incomes because they can't make ends meet otherwise.

The 50's housewife idealized in this thread is mostly that - an ideal, even in the 50s.

January 21, 2009

Because I may ENJOY venturing out of the house to learn and experience through a skill that I have and cultivated. It isn't only about making a paycheck. Being provided for is not the end-all, be-all of my existence. This should not be assumed as something that would bring automatic comfort to a married woman with children.

Kids need a full time mom so thanks for making MY point. I don't care whether women in general make their own spending money, but I care very very deeply about any children I am father to having appropriate care, including the full attention of their mother.

I'm not asking anyone to give up something they want to do, indeed my stance has always been that such women are not fit to marry primarily because I don't want to ask someone I love to give something so important to them up. I will love someone whose goals and values are compatible.

January 21, 2009

Stock, everyone can make it to college, as long as they're within a reasonable intelligence quota and not mentally challenged (no sarcasm intended). This is where pragmatism and understanding your strengths and weaknesses comes into play.

In Germany, it is difficult to go to college if you didn't go to the right type of secondary school. Simply because no college can accept you as you don't have the required secondary school qualifications.

In order to get that you have to catch up on 3-4 years, get used to a faster pace, a more challenging curriculum, learning a new language, etc.

In a way, I think that makes it very difficult (of course there are people who do it, but not too many) to finally be able to go college this way. It is a lot easier to be challenged as a 10-11 year old kid, slowly getting used to "learning/aquiring" such knowledge than having to start at full pace at the age of 16/17 after a couple of years of never having been really challenged.

If a talented flutist pursues a career of flute playing, hoping they're going to make it big like Kenny G, that's an idealistic career. Not many people aren't talented in more than one way. It doesn't mean everyone has to be at the top of their game, to be reasonably successful within their lives.

I agree.

Let's pretend the highest salary you can possibly make is $40K per annum. What stopping you from supplementing that income with a second job if the one you're in has topped out? So you end up making $60K and working 75 hours a week for years. How different is this with the career person that makes $60K, working 60 - 80 hours to establish themselves? The next question to address is why anyone would stay in a $40K per annum job if they can self-improve with some night courses. No one forces anyone to stay in a dead-end job.

You can't simply take a second job with so many hours in Germany.

But that is not really the point. Unless a person is unhappy or simply can't survive on that income, I wouldn't call it a dead-end job, even if they never get much more than what they are paid now.

And I don't want to bash people who work long hours to establish themselves or if they want to make a certain amount of money. That is a choice and theirs to make.

It just depends on what goals you have, what lifestyle you want. Some people want to retire at 50, others want to own a house or spend their free time travelling the world. Others have expensive hobbies. Others want to save as much as possible while they can which is understandable and smart. Or they want and can have all of the above.

Oh, you have a family to support. Why did you have that family on $40K/annum? Because it was YOUR choice in life to do so.

Each person makes choices in their lives. Just try to make wise choices for long-term happiness. If you're happy in a $40K/annum job, then that's great and I mean it sincerely. Just own it.

I have no idea about the costs of living in Canada or the US and how far you can get with $40K. I should probably stay out of those discussions once they involve cost of living for that very reason.

It just sometimes sounds like a six figure household income is needed to raise a family. Depending on what lifestyle people are used to, it might actually be that much, but it can be done with far less without running the risk of starving to death.

At least in Germany you don't need that much. 40k Euros (I disregarded the exchange rate) are enough to raise a family. 38k is the average income for someone who works full time (which is usually a 40 hour week). But we also get tax exemptions for families, a favourable tax bracket for married people if only one works, affordable health care which includes spouse and kids. College costs virtually nothing, etc.

That family can't buy whatever they want, but I know my parents raised three kids with a much lower income during our early years. And I doubt that my dad ever made more money than those 40k while we were teenagers. There is still a mortgage on the house though, so more money wouldn't have hurt.

January 22, 2009

Please explain how 'you never have to earn a wage again, just be a full time mom' is uncomfortable. I really don't get it.

I know you don't get it. I don't think you even mean to be so contemptuous about it. Thats why you don't see how you are being so. Its being conveniently oblivious. Its like a white person saying "I don't know why it bothers colored people to be called colored." You don't have to get it because it doesn't apply to you.

Its this assumption you have that being a full time mom must be easy just because YOU WILL NEVER BE ONE. You will need a woman to have children because it is something you cannot do and it makes you feel better to think its a piece of cake. You will never have to actually prove it to be so much easier.

Who are you trying to convince? Other men? They will never be one either so it doesn't matter if they are convinced. Its a whole other series of stupidity for them if they choose to be stay at home fathers.

I'm certain you can find a woman who wishes to have children and be their primary caregiver but I don't think it'll be such a snap for you to find one who thinks its easy to do. Let alone one who will be happy being called a "thing" while she does it for YOUR family.

January 22, 2009

I care very very deeply about any children I am father to having appropriate care,

But not enough to ever do it yourself.

January 22, 2009

Its this assumption you have that being a full time mom must be easy ....

Some short people hate to be called short. *shrug* You're right, I don't get it and I think it's stupid to get upset over it. Moving on ...

I never said or inferred it's easy, just that (in interests of addressing the topic) I pointed out that "my woman" (wow, no one is up in arms about the "their woman" part of the topic ...) is gonna have to want kids and be willing to care for them properly. I don't give two ****s what sort of poor quality care anyone else gives their kids, it's not my day to worry about that.

I care too much about her feelings to ask her to give up a career that's important to her, so for me a woman that's attached to a career is not marriageable. If that offends you then tough, I'm sure you can find some guy to marry you or stay married to you while you work at whatever job it is you love so well.

Or maybe not. I really don't hear too many men complaining about not being able to find marriage minded women. I do hear them gripe about not being able to find any who are worth marrying.

I'm certain you can find a woman who wishes to have children and be their primary caregiver but I don't think it'll be such a snap for you to find one who thinks its easy to do. Let alone one who will be happy being called a "thing" while she does it for YOUR family.

I've found a lot of them and I'm dating 3 (or4, or 5, depending on your view of what dating is) at the moment. I'm actually quite charming in person and it's not hard for me to date women. Blessing and curse I guess.

As for your fun and games with words, "thing" in this context is not derogatory, but carry on with the hating, it suits you.

But not enough to ever do it yourself.

Sure I will. The fact is that until my portfolio can carry me I have to continue working full time, and no woman who earns what I make can earn straight through 2-3 pregnancies.

January 22, 2009

Some short people hate to be called short. *shrug* You're right, I don't get it and I think it's stupid to get upset over it. Moving on ...

I never said or inferred it's easy, just that (in interests of addressing the topic) I pointed out that "my woman" (wow, no one is up in arms about the "their woman" part of the topic ...) is gonna have to want kids and be willing to care for them properly. I don't give two ****s what sort of poor quality care anyone else gives their kids, it's not my day to worry about that.

I care too much about her feelings to ask her to give up a career that's important to her, so for me a woman that's attached to a career is not marriageable. If that offends you then tough, I'm sure you can find some guy to marry you or stay married to you while you work at whatever job it is you love so well.

Or maybe not. I really don't hear too many men complaining about not being able to find marriage minded women. I do hear them gripe about not being able to find any who are worth marrying.

I've found a lot of them and I'm dating 3 (or4, or 5, depending on your view of what dating is) at the moment. I'm actually quite charming in person and it's not hard for me to date women. Blessing and curse I guess.

As for your fun and games with words, "thing" in this context is not derogatory, but carry on with the hating, it suits you.

I'm not hating and I'm not opposed to caring for children or any traditional family plan. You only take it as hate because you cannot and do not want to see the tone you're applying here. If I'm Hispanic and I have a friend who calls me a slur but in a familiar way it doesn't make it any less condescending if someone I don't know well uses the same slur. I don't care if you and some female have some understanding about calling her a "thing", you're on a public forum and we don't love you.

All I'm trying to point out to you is that if you have these standards good for YOU. Trying to tell everyone else its the way it should be and the right way, or even the natural way or ideal, doesn't mean it is for everyone else. Your thread wasn't a celebratory heads up to let everyone know that you stuck to your values and got married to that perfect woman and are now planning a family - this way. Yeah you rock we're so happy for you!

No.

You are here to spout about your beliefs. I only point out that your beliefs are convenient for you because it imposes nothing to you. These beliefs were not a realization on your part formed by making some mistake and getting a better perspective that you'd like to share with us all. They didn't come after some personal inner struggle either. You took the easiest and most ego boosting way to explain why men like yourself seem to struggle with today's women.

Also, interestingly but unsurprisingly:

This thread is a pretty convenient way for you to look down on women who will reject you and your beliefs.

Furthermore, much like the thought that truly independent women don't need to tell people they are independent - I don't believe charming men who have luck with the ladies need to tell people they are charming and have luck with the ladies.

January 22, 2009

All I'm trying to point out to you is that if you have these standards good for YOU. Trying to tell everyone else its the way it should be and the right way, or even the natural way or ideal, doesn't mean it is for everyone else.

I started out assuming you are not an idiot, please don't make my positive view too hard to maintain. The topic of the thread is ... "Why are some men so adverse to their woman making her own money?" and I'm answering the question. What is your problem?

Your thread wasn't a celebratory heads up ....

Not my thread sugar pants. Try to keep up.

January 22, 2009

I started out assuming you are not an idiot, please don't make my positive view too hard to maintain. The topic of the thread is ... "Why are some men so adverse to their woman making her own money?" and I'm answering the question. What is your problem?

Not my thread sugar pants. Try to keep up.

I know, it was the other thread. Its just that there are a rash of you and they're all so inter-changable. Any of you will do!

January 22, 2009

I know, it was the other thread. Its just that there are a rash of you and they're all so inter-changable. Any of you will do!

Wow. Just wow. No, the other thread is ALSO not my thread. Can you drink your morning coffee or something soon?

January 22, 2009

Wow. Just wow. No, the other thread is ALSO not my thread. Can you drink your morning coffee or something soon?

What I'm trying to get across to you is me doing this

attributing all this to you

is as logical as you thinking

any woman who cares about a career being worthless to family values

Just because a woman cares about her career, doesn't mean she loaths the idea of bringing children into this world and can be lumped into the catagory of militant feminist.

sorry if I was too subtle.

January 22, 2009

What I'm trying to get across to you is me doing this
attributing all this to you

is as logical as you thinking
any woman who cares about a career being worthless to family values

No, again please read what I really wrote. I don't care how great a career woman may or may not be and whether her fecal matter smells like roses or not. I just want any children I father to have a full time mother. Simple really.

By the way the line feeds are interesting are you trying for Haiku?

Just because a woman cares about her career, doesn't mean she loaths the idea of bringing children into this world and can be lumped into the catagory of militant feminist.

Again, please complain to me about things I actually said. Thanks.

January 22, 2009

Don't be too hard on him.
He's only a kid.
He has got sooooo much learning to do.

But for some obscure reason, he actually believes that eventually, he will find a woman who perfectly fits his required profile. The little stay-at-home wife who will raise the kids and fit the 50's advertising image of elegance and style whilst her head is in the oven cooking the pot roast.....
What he doesn't realise is that no such woman exists. Either here, or in actual society.
Unless he shops for one on the internet.....

lol, no kidding, and if she is smart she will have a backup plan, and her own savings account fill with funds he has paid for her worthwhile services,

January 22, 2009

Second what about never having to work for a wage again is giving up personal comfort? Don't blow smoke up my ass, I take care of all my own house hold chores now and it's a cakewalk, we have machines to do about 90% of the work it's not like we're in some developing country where we have to wash clothes by hand and bathe in cold water.

This cracks me up, because there is no way in hell (most) men clean like women do!

Have you ever cleaned out the corners of the bathroom tile with a wet cloth, did it yesterday, the door was closed and omg where did that crap come from,

Do men, take the drawers out of the fridge and clean under them, there is some definate ecoli living there!

When is the last time you dusted under the bed, there is a family of bunnies living there.

Wipe down and sanitize the door jams and knobs, especially after someone has been sick!

Read an article that said, you should change your sheets every 7 days, how about that mattress cover, bet there are bed mites galore in it (and EVERYONE) has bed mites!

Washed or changed the bed pillows?? heck a slobber in dem babies!

ok, ok stop me heck i havent even gotten to the living room!

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