OK So I am an Arse

[LoveLace]

The only miniscule chance in h*ll of getting this guy to "change" and commit, is not to enable his excuses by listening to them. I'd tell him to take his list and shove it up his arse. That he knows what you want and expect, and if he isn't prepared for it, then to go make a list for someone else. You are doing the wrong thing if you go chit chat with this guy.

 

He needs to feel loss. And to realize that you are not there anymore. Because right now you are still there.

 

 

I agree. If you do talk to him about his "issues", your attitude should be, well, YOUR issues are YOURS and not mine; so good luck getting those figured out and have a nice life. Matter of fact, what about YOUR issues...you have them too, you know, like the one that says you want him to commit in the way you deserve. YOUR issues should matter to him as much, if not more, as his own. And obviously that isn't the case so far.

[nature]

Trying this again using the Notepad foremat! It doesn't let you see that it will look all wacked out, until you hit Post...after that it is too late! So I'm taking a deep breath and hoping this works this time!!!!

 

Commitment phobic men are tortured souls full of FEAR. They are in a constant state of emotional conflict because of their negative irrational beliefs about love, commitment and relationships. In relationships they create great confusion, havoc, pain, and anguish as their behaviours are often insensitive, unpredictable and bizarre.

 

 

These types of men can make women who are saints turn into mad women, as they play games with their minds and their hearts.

 

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#800000][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#800000][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#800000]Commitment phobic men may display SOME or MANY of the following behaviours:

[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]1. They usually have a history of short relationships and they may never have been married - there is often an excuse that they haven’t met the right woman, or they justify their history by saying they still have plenty of time to settle down as they can have children at any age. A favourite line is "someday".

2. If they have been married it is likely to have been for a short time, or, if they have been in a long term relationship or marriage, they will usually have a history of infidelity.

3. They want a relationship but they also want freedom and space so they are often attracted to long distance relationships and busy independent women.

4. They are fast to move in on a woman they are attracted to, and they pursue ardently until they win the woman over.

5. They are very charming. They say and do all the right things and they can be very romantic. They are very good salesmen to get their own needs met, but in reality they have very little concern for the woman’s feelings, as they are always operating from hidden agendas.

6. These men are usually very affectionate and loving. This is because in their mind the relationship is not going to be long term, so they feel free to give affection and love, knowing it won’t be forever. It isn’t long though before they suddenly start rejecting the woman, by not ringing or not wanting to see her for days, or not including her in weekend arrangements etc. This is because they subtly want to give the woman the message that they don’t want a long term committed relationship.

7. Severe commitment phobics play the seduction/rejection game. They can’t make the decision to give totally to the relationship, but they can’t commit to walk away either. They feel trapped by both choices. They feel love for the woman when they don’t see her, but they want to run away when they become involved again.

8. Commitment phobics love the chase but they don’t want the kill. This may happen after 1 night, 1 week, 1 month, 3 months or 1 year. They may start sabotaging just as they are about to get married, or just before or after there's a decision made to move in together.

9. They spin stories to justify their contradictory behaviour, and when the woman threatens to leave the relationship they may make promises to change, but they never do.

10. They tend to treat the woman like a mistress rather than a real girlfriend.

11. They tend to limit the amount of time they spend with the women and treat her as a low priority.

13. Commitment phobics behaviours announce subtly…“You will be special for a short time, but it won’t be forever”.

14. They often choose women who are not the type of partner they are looking for, for example they may be much older, much younger, married, or they may have different interests. They use these differences as excuses to end relationships.

15. They can have a history of frequent career change and often work in environments where they have a certain amount of space and freedom.

16. They treat requests for respect as demands and become, angry, obnoxious and rebellious.

17. Severe commitment phobics avoid events or outings that may include the woman's family or friends.

18. They know an ongoing sexual relationship often leads to commitment so they choose to run when things start to head in that direction.

19. They like to feel in control and create time frames that suit them, often treating the woman like a puppet on a string.

20. They don’t like structure, particularly in their personal life.

21. They tend to compartmentalize their life and keep their work environment, friends or family off limits. They can create wonderful excuses why the woman shouldn’t meet these people.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]2.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] When they get the feeling they need to run, their words and actions are full of mixed messages. They play mind games.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]3.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] A [/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]c[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]ommitment phobic won’t allow the relationship to grow and they have no intentions of ever doing so.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]4.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They can be moody or aloof and blame the woman for why they are acting so bizarrely.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]5.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They may withdraw sexually and blame it on the woman for being demanding, or on work fatigue, or illness, or anything else that they can think of.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]6.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They can have a history of unavailability and inaccessibility .They can be hard to contact, and they are often unpredictable when it comes to returning phone calls. They can even avoid answering calls completely.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]7.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They lie, or they are evasive and secretive about where they are and what they are doing to create space.

2[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]8.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] Their living arrangements may be rather off-beat. They may have an apartment but they may rarely stay there, preferring to stay at friends places, with parents or ex-girlfriend’s.

[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]29.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They hate planning ahead because that means commitments.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]0[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]. Severe commitment phobics may have very little furniture, not own property or a car, as these represent commitment as well. To some buying a car can be as big a decision as deciding to get married - it can be all too much for them as they don’t want to feel stuck with anything.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]1[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]. They often don’t invite women to their home because of their peculiar living arrangements, but they have no desire to change their situation. Even if their home is comfortable it exudes the feeling that they want to be alone. It is not welcoming to the outside world.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]2[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]. They are often unreliable, late and sometimes they don’t turn up at all. They are like this with family and friends as well, although this is not the case in their working environment.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]3[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]. They are often unfaithful in relationships.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]4.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They can be overly committed to their work or to their children to avoid spending a lot of time with a woman.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]5.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] Severe commitment phobics rarely lower their defences because they don’t want to get too close to a woman, or vice versa. If they do, they usually only give little pieces of their soul in well- planned instalments, except if they are having an affair. Affairs are perfect for commitment phobics as they feel completely safe to disclose and to chase, as commitment is not an option while they are in another relationship.

3[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]6.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] If a man has been married he may void putting his divorce papers through as he can use this as an excuse to keep a woman at bay. This helps him to feel safe from the possibility of ever getting married again.

[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]37.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] Behavioural inconsistencies are very noticeable with these men when they find themselves getting too close. They become argumentive and abusive, or they create distance. A lot of uncaring sabotage behaviours surface eg. working long hours, taking on extra projects, creating space, not ringing, being late, finding fault with the woman etc

[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]38.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They often choose to travel a lot for work, to play a lot of sport, or be involved in many projects to create distance.

[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]39.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] These men know on some level that they are deceptive and cruel to women.

[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]40[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]. The word “forever” terrifies these men. Love doesn’t scare them; rather it is what love represents to them that scares them. This is due to their negative belief system about love and relationships.

4[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]1.[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2] They usually end up behaving worse and worse, and they sabotage more and more because they want the woman to end the relationship as they feel too anxious and guilty to do so.

4[/sIZE][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=#000080]2[/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]. Severe commitment phobics can also suffer from claustrophobia and/or a personality disorder.

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[nature]

Oh jeesh...I give up!! Here is the link if anyone wants to read it or try pasting it correctly in here...SORRY!!

http://www.simplysolo.com/relationships/how_to_spot_a_commitment_phobic.html

[curiousnycgirl]

LOL thanks Nature, so very much. I actually copied it from the first post, cleaned it up, printed it out, and have been reading it. What huge aha moments.

 

Much of this describes my b/f and I made many of the mistakes it warns not to do. Oh well that is water under the bridge - all I can do is progress forward.

 

The amazing thing is that he also demonstrates many of these commitment phobic traits with his son, which is very sad. b/f was not involved with his son for 13 years of his life - they reconnected with the son was 18. He's a great kid, with a great wife and an amazing daughter.

 

Thing is that his son and daughter in law and I speak often. Since all this began, even his granddaughter has been calling me (she's only 2, I'm on speed dial). My point being that b/f seems to want to claim he's a victim here, poor him his kid resents him - but truth is all the kid wants is for his father to make an attempt/expend a little effort.

 

Yup he's a commitment phobic all around. I continue in my resolve that he gets no more time - we either move forward NOW or we'red done.

 

Meanwhile after last night's call - the ball was in my court to tell him when I was available to meet/discuss. I sent him an email earlier today - no response. I'm shocked, NOT.

[Trialbyfire]

He'll respond but on his own time.

 

Btw, nyc, did you count up the points he hit on nature's list?

 

Just for fun, I did it for that previously mentioned man. 34 hits out of 42! Mucho phobe!

[nature]

Oh Curious..I know the pain and frustration it involves. As I said, I got involved with one for a year...and thankfully was at a strong enough stage in my life to say good-bye when he started pulling out his "list". lol

 

The hardest part of all, I think...is that commitment phobes cannot commit to being in the relationship, or being out of it. They want their cake and to eat it too. They love the waffling "relationship" that doesn't grow or move forward towards real commitment. They will come up with every excuse in the book to keep you there, in their stagnant, waffling idea of a "relationship". They don't like growth...whether it's growth towards a commitment, or growth towards breaking up. Either way, they will AVOID. Avoidance is the key word here. They are avoiders!

 

My commitment phobe got angry at me when I finally said enough. And he still tried after that. For about a year, sending me lovey-dovey little emails as if nothing had happened. It was his way of AVOIDING the fact that we were broken up. He tried and tried to string me back into his web. And boy, does it take strength to not allow it. Especially when you love them. Which I did. Argh.

 

Just glad I kept my wits about me. To this day, he is still single. lol

[curiousnycgirl]

Nature - I'm fairly confident I am at the walking stage - we'll see how it goes when/if he responds, and when/if we can coordinate a time to get together (btw this is completely new to him, I've always put him first - but I made plans, thinking we were through, and I don't back out - tee hee).

 

TBF how we managing the points system? One point for every line that applies? I'll go back and do that shortly. I'm afraid he's probably very high.

[Mikey Action]

In my opinion, Unless a commitment phobic person (of either gender)

 

acknowledges their phobia

goes to see someone to get help about this phobia and treats it seriously I would never date them.

 

Even with that, I would probably walk away.

 

Having once dated the epitome of the "20-something, educated, female professional, commitment-phobe"

 

I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone. That's what it really boils down to. For the non phobic person, you are in for pain, pain and more pain.

 

You'll feel terrible. you'll wonder what it is you're not doing right.

You'll wonder if they're cheating.

You'll wonder what you can do.

You'll stop feeling happy.

You'll wonder why they recoil when you kiss them in public or grab their hand.

You'll wonder if you're no longer attractive to them.

 

They'll tell you they love you. Because they do.

They'll tell you there isn't someone else. Because there isn't.

They'll project all their pain, sadness and anger onto you as a reason to avoid commitment and tell you that the relationship isn't working. (a la the previously mentioned "list of problems").

They'll blame you for this to avoid facing the fact that commitment scares them more than anything else.

 

In my case, she decided she would rather be alone, not date, just live in her apartment by herself, work 15 hour days and simply hang out with her friends and work.

 

It took me a while to figure out that it really was that she was just scared to death of a committed relationship and the word "commitment" was probably one of the scariest words she'd ever heard. Every time I said it she probably cringed inside.

 

Right around the two year mark is when one party starts to get, "ok where is this going?" questions and wants to see what the other party thinks. I would also suppose right around this time the commitment-phobe is thinking the opposite "I'm afraid of where this is going".

 

It is them and not you.

 

I just learned to recognize the signs and not get into that again. I would never put myself through that again.

[nature]

I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone. That's what it really boils down to. For the non phobic person, you are in for pain, pain and more pain.

 

Mikey, I would agree. It eats away at your own self-esteem. Especially when they are not forced in to admitting they have a problem. And even if they do admit it at times, they will quickly shift admittance and say they don't have a "problem"....and that is when the "list" of excuses comes out for why they cannot commit.

 

Someone who wants to commit, commits. It's plain and simple. As I said before, we all have problems, issues, etc. We could all find 8 million reasons why "today" is not the right day to commit. But when you are commitment-minded and not afraid of it, you don't look for excuses. All the problems in the world aren't enough to stop you from committing to the person you love. After all, isn't that why people look for a committed relationship....to have someone there to share life with. To help each other through the good times and the bad.

 

Commitment-phobes become very insulting, frustrating, irritating, angering, etc. Everything is a big game. A game to keep you going along to the beat of their drum, while holding you back from having what you want....a committed relationship. Grrr..it still makes me angry when I think back to my experience with the commitment-phobe. The frustration he caused me. The stupid games. (ie. not answering the phone when I had supposedly put too much pressure on him, etc.) Going away together for a one week holiday, and he was practically salivating to get back to his own place away from me...for some space. After he had chased me down for a year to get me to date him. Argh. They just love the conquest. Not the prize. Or they like the prize on their terms.

 

They are the most insulting of all people. Most will not admit they have a problem, and use excuses instead. So frustrating. And I agree with Mikey. They need serious help. But most won't seek it. They honestly do not believe they have a problem. I guess they are the people who wake up alone when they are old and gray, never having being married. The consummate bacherlors/bachelorettes.

[Trialbyfire]

TBF how we managing the points system? One point for every line that applies? I'll go back and do that shortly. I'm afraid he's probably very high.

Yes, one point for every line!

 

Since I'm a numbers person, the 34/42 rating equals almost 81%. That's staggeringly high based on the comment from the site about some or many applicable traits! I do like what they say about how to handle someone like this and also what a commitment phobic person needs to address and do.

[curiousnycgirl]

He scored around a 67% - still really not bad.

 

BTW he did finally respond to my email, at 2:20 am!!! He as online all afternoon and evening (not that I have him back on yahoo, but someone told me) - he wanted to get together tonight for dinner. So I responded at 4 this am, that find I'll be home by 7.

 

Guess I'll have more to update after tonight. Will do so - now I'm off to reread the section on how to handle a commitment phobe - to shore up my resolve.

[curiousnycgirl]

So he came last night, we went out to a nice dinner - a place we had been meaning to try. Got home and he was catching me up on the trials and tribulations of his life. Finally he pulled out "the list" - he even had two copies, one for me, one for him

 

Nothing terribly shocking, I know we have issues - who doesn't? He wants to work on them to allow us to move forward. My knee jerk reaction is that it is too late - I need to move forward now. But I listened - and I asked, wo with this list, what now? What do we do today, tomorrow, next week, etc?

 

He heard my need for more time together, and suggested that rather than him coming Saturday night, and leaving Sunday evening, maybe he should come Thursday night, and leave monday am.

 

We discussed moving in together, and the economics of the situatoin are one of the big issues. On the emotional side of things - I am unwilling to move to his - way too far away, he's got way too much stuff so there is no room and frankly I hate his house) and he's not willing to move to mine. He suggested we work together to get rid of the clutter and excess stuff in his house - while we figure the rest out.

 

At this exact moment I am torn. On the one had I love him, and I appreciate that he is suggesting some compromises - on the other had, I don't think it should be this hard.

 

I would REALLY appreciate input.

[sunshinegirl]

I knew it. I knew this would happen.

 

You're already caving.

 

Please. Re-read this entire thread.

 

Go NC on his ass for a few days (weeks?), so you can think clearly about your wants and needs. Haven't you been compromising for 4.5 years?

[curiousnycgirl]

I have been compromising for 4.5 years, and no I am not caving. I am weighing the options. Entirley different.

[Trialbyfire]

Okay, I see a little movement on his side such as, spending more time together per week and some discussion about moving in together. This is good.

 

What I don't like are all his bolt holes but then, if you're determined to somehow make things work with a commitment phobe/passive-aggressive person, they need bolt holes. If you shut down all bolt holes, he'll run for the hills...STAT!

 

The discussion about working on the issues could potentially be good but it's reliant on whether he owned his portion of the issues. Did he?

 

I don't like the "work together on the clutter in his place" portion. His place or your place WILL become the sticking point, when push comes to shove. He'll use it.

 

Here's a way to call his bluff:

 

Do you have any good friends or relatives who're looking for an interim place to live? If so, you could rent out your place and move in with him right away. There's no reason why you couldn't work on his "list" of issues and "the clutter of his house", while living together.

[curiousnycgirl]

Good points (as always) TBF - the thing about asking my help to clear his clutter is because he just doesn't motivate to do it. and I am BRUTAL when it comes to not keeping stuff you won't use.

 

I agree that I see the fact that he is trying - and the truth is, if he had said I should come to him thursday night, I would have said no. But he recognized he would have to come to me.

 

I'm still thinking about it. Told him I want some time to think - as some of his issues really need to be seen from both sides - so I need to thoughtfully respond.

 

The other thing making me consider, is that at the bottom of his typed out list of issues was the acknowledgement that he does not know how to effectively be part of a relationship - and desperately wants to try to be what I want/need him to be. That acknowledgment seemed to be more self aware than I had expected.

 

I am reserving response to allow myself to think. Will likely be on and off this board as I ponder my options/choices/responses - so I really appreciate you guys being my interactive sounding boards.

[nature]

the thing about asking my help to clear his clutter is because he just doesn't motivate to do it.

 

He is not motivated to clean up his place so that the woman he loves can move in and share his life? Do you really want someone who finds this too much trouble? Yes, you obviously do. So tell him to get off his lazy arse, clean it up, and move in I guess. However, you also said earlier that you hate his house. So it does not sound to me like you want to move there? Does he own his house? Do you own yours? Why will he not consider moving to yours?

 

Relationships take work. You say this feels like too much work with him, and I can understand why you feel that way. But in the big scope of life, the things that are stopping you two from moving in together are really little things...excuses. If you really love each other and want to make it work, then you boht have to compromise.

 

I am still leary about this guy though. And I think you are too. And I think your gut instinct is telling you not to give up your place and move in with him. Because instinctually, you know, that a few months down the way he is going to panic, freak out, and pretty soon you are going to be the one out in the cold looking for a new place to live. Am I right? I think this is the real reason you do not want to give up your place and move in with him. Fear. Fear that he will lose his mind. And you wll be the one lost.

 

I think you both need to give up your places and find a place together over the next few months. So that it is on both of your terms. And if he wont' consider that, then you have your answer.

[sunshinegirl]

The other thing making me consider, is that at the bottom of his typed out list of issues was the acknowledgement that he does not know how to effectively be part of a relationship - and desperately wants to try to be what I want/need him to be. That acknowledgment seemed to be more self aware than I had expected.

 

CNYCG, I don't mean to sound harsh. I think it's that I've had my share of commitment-phobes and have made decisions to keep hoping, keep giving more chances, only to have every single one blow up in my face.

 

The bolded thing stands out to me. I'd urge you not to invest much stock in his self-awareness. My last ex told me once that he didn't know how to empathize with people. I thought "Wow, how self-aware of him! At least he sees the problem." But he never did anything about it. I've had other boyfriends, who, years into the relationship had some big 'breakthrough' of awareness that always had me singing Jesus praises because finally everything would change. But things never actually changed.

 

Some people are expert at telling others what they want to hear - just enough crumbs to give them hope and keep them hanging in there. Please don't be taken in by that. Self-awareness isn't change. And unless his change is motivated from within, from his own desire to live his life differently, any compromises you make in the heat of this breakup moment are going to fizzle. Guaranteed. And you'll be back here in a few months wondering why you're not moving forward when there was all this promising talk and compromise!

 

I'm giving it to you straight because I think you can take it and because I think your gut is telling you the same thing.

 

I'm a little surprised by TBF's advice, really - she's stoking your hope, I can see, when normally she's pretty straight-up and no-nonsense when she sees people being treated poorly or not getting what they want/need. Maybe she sees something I don't see?

[curiousnycgirl]

 

In the ideal world, yes this is what we both agree we would need to do. However in the current economy, and it's affect on house values, we cannot afford to do this.

 

He agrees that in all likelihood selling his house would be the one we would have to sell, because he has more equity in his. Mine is close to being underwater - not yet, but close - however I could not afford to sell the house, pay off the mortgage and pay the realtor.

 

The concept of cleaninng out his crap came up when I admitted how much I hate his house and that there is no room in it for me. He immediately agreed that he's got a lot of extraneous stuff that he's just moved from place to place (as employers were paying for his moves) - and he felt he could make a lot of room.

 

I understand and appreciate your reluctance, trust me I have it too - just trying to be fair and balanced in my review of the data points.

[curiousnycgirl]

I'm giving it to you straight because I think you can take it and because I think your gut is telling you the same thing.

 

I'm a little surprised by TBF's advice, really - she's stoking your hope, I can see, when normally she's pretty straight-up and no-nonsense when she sees people being treated poorly or not getting what they want/need. Maybe she sees something I don't see?

 

Sunshinegirl - I appreciate your candor, and your concern - and yes I have the same concern. I am not jumping up and down happy skippy after last night's discussion, I am cautious and I am thinking, that is all.

 

I think TBF sees a kernel of possible hope - nothing guaranteed, but cause to think.

 

Thank you!

[Trialbyfire]

ssg, regrets are something not worth living with. nyc is a woman who's not controlled by her emotions. She's capable of stepping back and analyzing the situation.

 

The impression I get, and correct me if I'm wrong nyc, is that this is his first movement forwards in 4.5 years, that's not solely based on excuses of why he can't. He's willing to spend more time with her and is having a feasibility discussion about moving in together.

 

On the otherhand, he could bolt at any moment. That's the nature of the beast, which is why I suggested that she call him on his bluff.

[nature]

Curious, you are not ready to give up on this relationship. And I agree, he is at least acknowledging that he has issues and that he wants this relationship to work. Why don't you set a timeline in your head. Say March 17th (St.Patricks Day) or something. Pick a day about 6 wks away.

 

Now over the 6 wks, do not say anything to him about the relationship moving forward. Just spend time with him and let him be the one making most of the plans, coming to you, etc. Don't harp on him, don't remind him. Just seeeeeeeeee.

 

See if he follows thru on his word. Because if he really means his word that he wants this to work, he will not need you reminding him of it. He will put in the time and make the effort. All on his own.

 

this will give you the chance to feel like you tried and gave him the opportunity. And you will get your answer. Either he will "step up" and spend more time with you. Or he won't. It is now up to him to prove that he does want all of this with you. And you will be able to tell very clearly by his actions over the next 6 wks.

 

But you have to sit back and not remind him, not hard on him, not discuss it with him. You have to let him make these moves forward. On his own. He's a big boy. If he wants it, he will do it.

[curiousnycgirl]

nature - all good input, but you forget, I've done that. I don't nag, I don't harp, I don't remind him of what I've already said. I suggested we weren't right for each other (due to the fact that he wasn't ready to move forward) in April 2008 at which point he begged for more time, he brought it up in August - and I put my foot down January 2009. Those are the only discussions we had in the past year on this topic.

 

My intent is to figure out how to comprehensively respond to his two page list - and then do exactly as you suggest, tell him that progess must be constant, and by X date (haven't defined X yet) we don't both feel more comfortable about this relationship - then we agree to go our separate ways.

 

Can't pick March 17th though - screw St. Patrick it's my horse's birthday! From now and forever to be known to everyone who reads this thread as TUX's day!:bunny::bunny: (four bunny salute to Tux my baby boy)

[Trialbyfire]

How are things going, nyc?

[Lishy]

Wow, wow and WOW!

 

How did I miss this thread?

 

I am in shock, my ex is a commitment phobe and I really did not see it!!!

 

CNYG, take things nice and slow honey as you are in for a bumpy one, a CP says what you want to hear but does not follow through with actions.

 

An update would be excellent!

 

TBF's advice has been spot on, as some others too