Engagement Disaster! (long, sorry)

[lkjh]

sb129, I wasn't referring to your post.

[sb129]

I think that what she really needs to do is find out what HE is thinking and feeling.

He definitely knows how she is feeling, but its clearly not mutual- and thats not a good starting point for a marriage either.

[boldjack]

Don't presume to interpret my meanings. Marriage isn't the ONLY form of relationship, only ONE form of relationship. If there is LOVE present, then the type of expression is their JOINT decision.

[lkjh]

BoldJack, I never question your relationship with the allmighty. I was pointing out why marriage is more important than a relationship to some people. I was pointing out why marraige is bigger than a few words or however you put it. You are right marriage isn't the only form of a relationship but it is the one this thread is dedicated to and the one andwhoknew was asking about. Marriage to some people is more than a expression. Its fine if you think that but some people believe it is a "God blessed Union". Some people feel it makes the relationship complete.

[sb129]

Don't presume to interpret my meanings. Marriage isn't the ONLY form of relationship, only ONE form of relationship. If there is LOVE present, then the type of expression is their JOINT decision.

 

Absolutely.

 

There are lots of marriages out there that are devoid of love and respect. I'd rather be unmarried and with someone who loved me and respected me than married to someone who didn't.

 

It takes more than a couple of rings and a piece of paper to make a successful R, and if you are getting hung up too much on marriage per se, then you are falling at the first hurdle IMO because you are forgetting about the other things the make a R great.

 

You may say well its easy for you to say, as I am married, but it was a joint decision entered into freely and willingly by both of us- the fundamentals of our R are still the same.

Since we signed the papers, nothing has changed. I am not suddenly "happier" or more secure because we are married.

I was happy and secure before....

[lkjh]

The only part of my first post that was directed to you was the fact that you are now married. The rest was simply the reasons why marriage and living together are not the same things and why someones love is not always enough.

[lkjh]

sb129, you are a atheist but not all people are. If marriage really meant so little to then why did you get married. Let me ask you were you happy when you got engaged? If you said no would your H still be with you? Im just wondering really.

 

Also I never said a marriage with out love and respect is a good thing. I actually have no idea where you got that from in my post. Actually most people vow to love and respect there SO when they get married. I competly agree with you that a marriage with out these are more harmful then good.

[boldjack]

Ikjh, You said that I was " trying to discredit the value of marriage", you also said,"I guess you love wasn't enough". If that isn't attempting to interpret my meaning then we apparently speak different forms of the English language.

[sb129]

sb129, you are a atheist but not all people are. If marriage really meant so little to then why did you get married. Let me ask you were you happy when you got engaged? If you said no would your H still be with you? Im just wondering really.

 

Also I never said a marriage with out love and respect is a good thing. I actually have no idea where you got that from in my post. Actually most people vow to love and respect there SO when they get married. I competly agree with you that a marriage with out these are more harmful then good.

 

Show me where the OP has mentioned that she wants to get married because of god.

If you can't, then that is not a relevant part of this particular discussion about marriage.

 

Of COURSE I was happy when he asked me. But it was a happy decision and time for us both.

It wasn't something that I bullied him into doing, it was a complete surprise and then we both planned the wedding together. He was really excited about the wedding and getting married.

 

Thats the key difference here.

 

I didn't say it meant little to me. But loving HIM and being with him meant more to me than "being married".

I was happy with him without being married. I am happy with him as his wife.

 

I loved our wedding, it was a truly emotional, loving, romantic, special day, and here wasn't one iota of doubt from either side at ANY time from engagement to wedding.

It meant alot to our families, and we were both surprised at how much it meant to us in the end.

 

Maybe I did end up with more respect for it in the end.

But if we could rewind time and erase the engagement and wedding, I would still be with my H, because I love him and he is the person I want to be with. He says the same, I just asked him.

[lkjh]

Many couples have had long (30+years) relationships without marriage. (Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn come to mind) He is clearly happy with the status quo and you clearly are not, but it seems to be you, who is making this disagreement into a battles of wills. If you love him and he loves you, a piece of paper and a few spoken words seem to me to be a sorry reason to break up. I was married for 8 years and cheated on my wife, I lived with a woman for 10 years and was totally devoted to her because my love was more important to her than a golden ring.

 

Here this entire post makes it seem like you are saying marriage isn't that important. You even tell her breaking up with someone over marriage is a "sorry reason". You literally called marriage a sorry reason. This is discrediting it.

 

The love wasn't enough was harsh and Im sorry. The point I was trying to make is that yes love formed your relationship but now you are married. There is clearly a reason for that. If marraige was just a piece of paper" then nobody would get married . You even said you are married because she is the mother of your children and wife. Which I completely agree with.

 

I am not interpreting your post I am reading them for what they say.

[lkjh]

I never said she wanted to get married because of God, This was just a side note that boldjack and myself got on. I was just pointing out that to some people marriage is a big deal. My original post said it could be because of religion, how you are brought up or something else. The point is; getting married is important to her. If you didn't notice I agreed with you about both wanting it. I even said if he wants something different then she should find someone else.

[boldjack]

129, I agree that love comes first , but some people need or want more structure and ritual.

[sb129]

But isn't that sad if they break up over that, and that alone?

 

Yes, getting married is important to her. But at the expense of losing someone she loves and loves her?

You can argue it this way from both sides.

 

They are in a catch-22 now- she won't believe it if he suddenly ends up showing a large amount of enthusiasm for getting married, and the seeds of doubt are already sown. He is in a lose-lose situation either he does something he doesn't want to do or he loses his GF.

 

I think that perhaps shoe could have avoided this situation waay back by handling it with more tact earlier on.

[sb129]

129, I agree that love comes first , but some people need or want more structure and ritual.

 

Yes, and I don't hold that against anyone.

 

I can see how it happens.

 

However,when it becomes a problem is like this situation (and there are literally hundreds of threads like this on LS), where the couples have different opinions and both think that theirs is the most important.

Early communication breakdown= problems later on. ONe half of this couple wasn't being honest when they had early discussions about marriage.

 

My dealbreaker is kids.

I want kids, and when i met my H at the age of 29, I told him pretty early on that i wanted kids and i didn't want to cultivate a R at that stage with someone who didn't want kids, as I considered that to be a waste of time.

He wanted them too (and thankfully he didn't lie about it, as we are planning to try to start a family in the next couple of weeks)

 

i appreciate that you can;t always enter a R with a list of stipulations.... but it can help!

[lkjh]

But isn't that sad if they break up over that, and that alone?

 

Yes, getting married is important to her. But at the expense of losing someone she loves and loves her?

You can argue it this way from both sides.

 

They are in a catch-22 now- she won't believe it if he suddenly ends up showing a large amount of enthusiasm for getting married, and the seeds of doubt are already sown. He is in a lose-lose situation either he does something he doesn't want to do or he loses his GF.

 

I think that perhaps shoe could have avoided this situation waay back by handling it with more tact earlier on.

 

That is life. You pick the person that is best fit for you. After all our feelings do change later in life and it is better to have someone then with similar goals as yourself. The person she stays with will one day be the father of her children and the man she will relies on to instill morals in them. Also we really are jumping the gun in believing he doesn't want to marry her. He may want to but for whatever reason just isn't getting into it

[boldjack]

No problem IKJH. But if you are going to use the quote, use it all. I have no problem with saying that marriage thru coeorcion, marriage without love, or marriage for any other reason BUT LOVE is indeed a sorry institution.

[sb129]

Well if he isn't into it he shouldn't be doing it.

 

Thats not fair on her, as its hurting her.

 

Anyway thats all I have to say about that, as i need my beauty sleep.

[boldjack]

129. Are you sure you really want to do this? I have a whole tribe of the little beggars and I'll loan you a couple to try out. I won't loan you more cause I don't think N.Z. could handle more than two.

[Lauriebell82]

I didn't read this whole thread, but it sounds like you gave him an ultimatum. That's why he changes the subject. He feels pushed into it. He was happy with the way things were, but you made it clear that you wanted marriage or else, so in an effort to please you he agreed reluctantly.

 

The reason he said 2012 is because he was testing to see if you would go for it. He doesn't want to be engaged obviously (even though he says he does) or else he:

 

a) would have asked you without the ultimatum

b) he would be helping you plan the wedding, not changing the subject

c) would be saying how much he loves you and can't wait for you to be his wife

 

Is he saying any of that? Doesn't sound like he really is. He is afraid you will leave him if he says he isn't ready because you really want marriage. Sorry if all this sounds harsh..I'm in your same situation..but without the ultimatum. My boyfriend would NEVER respond to something like that. Ever. Plus, I don't want to force anyone to marry me..I want him to WANT to marry me. Not be threatened into it.

 

This dude is not ready to get married. The engagement will be a disaster if it continues. He doesn't want this so you either have to leave him if you want to get married or call off the engagement and tell him you will wait until he is ready. I know neither of those sound particularly appealing, but do you really want to force this guy to marry you? You shouldn't have to do that.

[SierraRose]

He is just not ready to get married. Stop pushing, or it will backfire in your face.

[Lauriebell82]

He is just not ready to get married. Stop pushing, or it will backfire in your face.

 

I agree. Why would you want to force someone to marry you?

[2sure]

You are not engaged. Engaged to be married implies a date and plans, ring or not. A date 2 years down the line is still "someday". What part of his actions indicate that you and he are engaged? Engaged itself indicates a committment and action. When you announce to his parents - what is going to be different that day from last week? What in your life has changed?

 

You want to get married. Most people do. You arent asking for anything unusual. You are allowing him to pacify you with the words"We're engaged". Just the words. They arent magic by themselves.

 

What happened to the ring he was designing? How much is in his wedding fund? You live together, this is your future and life you are talking about here. Whats with the games?

[melodymatters]

Some people want to be married, some don't. It's a non judgemental thing just like some people like sushi and some don't.

 

Unfortunately, you can be very happy with a sushi hater, but you CAN'T be very happy on " deal breaker" issues, like marriage, having kids, accepting an open marriage, etc : You just FEEL how you FEEL.

 

I don't see the point in any of these gazillion threads in trying to convince an OP that she doesn't feel how she feels.

 

I was with someone, we we're pretty happy. He proposed in front of all our friends at a new years party sans ring.

 

A few months later, he decided " he didn't believe in marriage and would never get married again". he was also extremely close/dependant on his family and the property we lived on was within a family trust and would never truly be ours. So, did i love him ? yes. Was I willing to be a life long live in GF on his families property ? No.

 

I left, he kept trying to keep the status quo, I eventually met a man who I fell madly in love with and he couldn't WAIT to marry me !

 

He's the one who framed our wedding pics and certificates, he's the one who turns ghost white if he misplaces his ring, in short he's a man who belives in marriage and I'm a woman who does as well.

 

There's no right or wrong, but there IS right and wrong for YOU.

 

I would have a long, calm, unemotional talk, and if he expressed that he really didn't feel like he wanted to get married i would BELIEVE him, and walk. He could have a change of heart, but you need to find someone with similar values. This issue does NOT go away.

 

Good luck !

[Lauriebell82]

6 months later, we have a romantic vacation planned. I think maybe this is it. Before we leave, I figure out that No Engagement Is Forthcoming and No Plans Are Being Made. I am Not Willing To Wait Indefinitely. So I told him we needed to set a date and get the ball rolling. So he says, reluctantly, “How about 2012?” WHAT?!?! When I asked to consider something sooner, he said, “Why does it have to be on your timeline?” Ouch. He then asks why it’s so important anyway, why should the government be involved? A total flip-flop on our discussions. Anyway we rehash the points made 6 mos ago and agree on a date in 2010.

 

This part jumped out at me. Did he ACTUALLY propose to you? It doesn't sound like he did. It sounds to me like you just all the sudden told him you were engaged and that you NEED to set a date. Another red flag. You shouldn't need engagement or need to set a wedding date. You should WANT to do those things. It also sounds like you are so hell bent on getting this guy to marry you that you have lost sight of what marriage is all about. I realize it's hard to focus on that when one of you isn't ready. But seriously, why in the world do you want to marry someone who doesn't want to marry you???? Is that going to make you happy?

 

Of course he flip flopped on your convo..he doesn't want to get married!!!! Although he did mention some things such as "designing rings" and talking about a wedding fund. Sounds like that is all talk to keep you around. Because know you are actually making this REAL and not some b.s. fantasy of a ring. And he doesn't want it. He may want it in the future but not now. I know that it is SO hard to accept, it hurts me as well that my boyfriend doesn't want to marry me right now. But forcing him will make us both miserable. Tell this guy you are okay with waiting or leave the relationship. That's the choice you have to make.

[andwhoknew]

Wow, interesting thread! It has taken a few different directions. I want to thank everyone for their responses. I read each of them very carefully and I appreciate your insights and advice. I think it is so wonderful and humbling that perfect strangers will take some time out of their day to help me, someone they don’t know. I’m honored.

 

Well first the news: I broke off the engagement last night.

 

I used a few ideas I got from here (thank you!) and said that I had seen some indications he was reluctant, and if we're going to do this thing it ought to be with two enthusiastic people. My mother, when she arrives, will be told we're focusing on other parts of our lives now, so we're downplaying this for the time being. Also got a bit more out of him on what he was so nervous about, still the "economy". Ah well, at least it's not me. I could not get out of him what sort of role the economy played in our relationship, and felt it best to drop the issue.

 

It was a casual discussion, which went well. He seems relieved. I am happy he is feeling better. I wish I could say the same about myself.

 

After considering all the responses, and his reactions, I would say the major issue is that he AGREED to do this thing, but clearly didn't want to, and might even have resented it. That is NOT a healthy way to make a major life decision! And now I am wondering what other things there may have been that I thought were done out of love, but he did just to please me or because he thought that was what I wanted, regardless of my true feelings on the issue. Also I seriously doubt our ability to communicate effectively on serious issues after this incident.

 

I definitely don’t want to be in this relationship as a live-in forever, as some posters suggested. Marriage is important to me for personal reasons, some of which I have outlined here in this thread. I know myself, and if I accept that situation, I will be setting myself up for problems later.

 

About the "forcing him to get married" bit. I'm not doing that, and never intended that. He is an adult, and if he can’t state his preferences in a rational discussion, if he feels he has to sublimate his desires to superficially please me, that is unfortunately his problem (and by extension somewhat my problem, because we’re together). But, I am hardly forcing him to do anything. I can state preferences; he can make choices.

 

We do not have a pattern of him expressing opinions and being punished for ones I disagree with. It might be family issues (overbearing father)? I don’t know if this is a pattern, or a one-time thing regarding an issue with high stakes.

 

Currently I am trying to decide how to decide when I will meet the crossover point of the pain outweighing the benefits of the relationship. I am angry, and frustrated, feeling sorry for myself, and probably can’t make a good decision about this until my thoughts settle down and my mother has left.

 

I deserve to be happy also, and I am really the only person who can be responsible for that happiness. I deeply, humbly appreciate all your help while I find my way there. Thank you very much.