Engagement Disaster! (long, sorry)

[Lauriebell82]

Good for you awk!!!!

 

It's wonderful you had the strength to do that. I agree that he did seem to "appease" by agreeing. It's gotta be his idea though. He knows how you feel, so you know have to let him make the decision. He will resent you if you keep pushing and keep bringing up engagement.

 

Pick up the book "Why Men Marry Bitches." It is awesome!!!! Tons of great advice.

 

First piece of advice: go NC on marriage! Do not even mention it, bring it up, hint about it, ect. Absolutely nothing. If HE brings it up act casual like you don't care. Answer with one word responses like "yeah" or "uh huh" then change the subject. He may also feel some relief that it isn't the central issue of your relationship. I know it may be hard, but have you thought about moving out? Not for a ring/engagement, but for yourself. So you won't be miserable, so you won't be the "forever live in girlfriend." Im thinking about moving out in May when our lease ends. As hard as that may be, I don't want to give him the impression that he can still blow smoke talking about "its going to be a big surprise" and b.s. and that I will take it and it will satisfy me. It won't. Your boyfriend (and mine) both have what they need right now. Why should they take a step they aren't ready for? They got you where they want you. Yeah it sucks. I feel for you. Do you have PM? If you do then PM me anytime.

[carhill]

OK, help a clueless guy understand....

 

You break off an engagement, meaning the commitment to become a legally married couple, but remain as live-in boyfriend/girlfriend?

 

Ah, non-traditional engagement...no ring to keep or give back, no plans to cancel, nothing. More electrons

 

I can categorically tell you that if my wife had "broken off" an engagement, we would've been done right exactly at that moment. No waffling there. Buh-bye and, BTW, I want that nice ring I spent a year finding back...

 

Other than that, commiserations, I guess...

[andwhoknew]

Lauriebell -- Thank you! I don't know how PM works here I'll have to get that sorted out. Yes I wish I was in a position to move out. The problem is -- he moved in with me, I own the place . I would be throwing him out, effectively, which is a lot of upheaval to inflict on someone unless I'm sure this relationship isn't going anywhere. I'm in the process of figuring out how to be sure now.

 

Carhill -- Clueless guy or judgmental guy? You would have called it quits right then -- great for you. For us, that is the wrong decision, for many reasons. The least of which is, throwing him out 2 days before a family visit would be disruptive at best. We're not living in a 50's ideal where we have to ask daddy for permission and can't nookie without the church's blessing. I am evaluating leaving the relationship but I'm going to do it when/if it's the right time.

 

In a way, you're exactly right, we were engaged with words only, not actions or things. Don't doubt for a moment that I'm not currently pondering over every other word he's said in the past, trying to discern the real meaning. It's painful, wondering how much truth has been betrayed.

[lkjh]

Lauriebell -- Thank you! I don't know how PM works here I'll have to get that sorted out. Yes I wish I was in a position to move out. The problem is -- he moved in with me, I own the place . I would be throwing him out, effectively, which is a lot of upheaval to inflict on someone unless I'm sure this relationship isn't going anywhere. I'm in the process of figuring out how to be sure now.

 

Carhill -- Clueless guy or judgmental guy? You would have called it quits right then -- great for you. For us, that is the wrong decision, for many reasons. The least of which is, throwing him out 2 days before a family visit would be disruptive at best. We're not living in a 50's ideal where we have to ask daddy for permission and can't nookie without the church's blessing. I am evaluating leaving the relationship but I'm going to do it when/if it's the right time.

 

In a way, you're exactly right, we were engaged with words only, not actions or things. Don't doubt for a moment that I'm not currently pondering over every other word he's said in the past, trying to discern the real meaning. It's painful, wondering how much truth has been betrayed.

 

 

andwhoknew, you are right that we are not in the 50's. But if you do not hold him to those standards why should he give the 1950's dream; marriage and family. Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? I agree do not throw him out before his parents come but you do need to set some boundaries about your relationship or next thing you know you will be a 44 year old woman in a relationship waiting for her live in boyfriend to be ready for the next step.

[andwhoknew]

Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?

 

I have a different question: Why force the guy to buy the cow when all he wants is the milk?

 

If I'm a cow, dammit, my partner had better want a COW. Not just milk. Living together with an intent to marry is an excellent way to discern who wants to buy cows and who just wants milk. I want my life partner to want to be my life partner, not someone who just grudgingly agrees to buy a cow because otherwise the milk supply is cut off.

 

Let me be clear: I do NOT want a guy that just wants milk. If he only wants to share household expenses, chores, and have sex, he can get a roommate with benefits for that. No stigma there anymore.

 

If I refused to take the relationship further unless we were married, I might end up with someone who just wants milk and doesn't want a cow.

 

Wow that was a lot of cows! This was a pretty weird post. Thanks for all the responses, I'm starting to laugh at the situation now a little instead of being so worked up over it.

[lkjh]

Wow that was a lot of cows! This was a pretty weird post. Thanks for all the responses, I'm starting to laugh at the situation now a little instead of being so worked up over it.

 

That was pretty funny. My point was that he is getting comfortable. What motivation does he have to take it to the next step?

[melodymatters]

I'm glad you're laughing ! I cracked up a lot too with your multiple milk and cow analogies; I think you've won the official Love shack Milk/Cow trophy !

 

Too funny, keep your spirits up, you sound like a smart woman, welcome to LS !!!!

[carhill]

OP, you're sending a message to this guy and I'm telling you it's a message, in my considered opinion, that will result in something you're going to end up unhappy with.

 

I'm going to call your ex-fiance a path of least resistance man and invite you to prove me wrong

 

You do notice I'm not taking his "side", here, don't you? He needs to man-up and take responsibility for his perspective. Placating the status quo does neither of you any good, IMO.

 

Hope it works out the way you want, and I would recommend PMC. See how that flies with him. No ring required. Counseling isn't just for we married folks.

[Lauriebell82]

I have a different question: Why force the guy to buy the cow when all he wants is the milk?

 

If I'm a cow, dammit, my partner had better want a COW. Not just milk. Living together with an intent to marry is an excellent way to discern who wants to buy cows and who just wants milk. I want my life partner to want to be my life partner, not someone who just grudgingly agrees to buy a cow because otherwise the milk supply is cut off.

 

Let me be clear: I do NOT want a guy that just wants milk. If he only wants to share household expenses, chores, and have sex, he can get a roommate with benefits for that. No stigma there anymore.

 

If I refused to take the relationship further unless we were married, I might end up with someone who just wants milk and doesn't want a cow.

 

Wow that was a lot of cows! This was a pretty weird post. Thanks for all the responses, I'm starting to laugh at the situation now a little instead of being so worked up over it.

 

Wait, huh? You contradicted yourself. You said you don't want a guy that just wants milk. Well, unfortunately that IS what he wants right now! Are you saying that living together is the right choice then? That if you move out he will NEVER marry you? Personally I hate that saying because lots of folks who live together end up getting engaged and married. And then some don't. Then there are couples who don't live together, but the guy STILL isn't ready.

 

I'm sorry but the bottom line right now is that he doesn't want to get married. Are you okay with that? I know you don't like the thought of moving out, but do you think that living together will help him move towards marriage? Do you think if you keep living together he's going to GET ready? Those are all questions that you have to ask yourself. I'm asking myself the same things.

[andwhoknew]

You said you don't want a guy that just wants milk. Well, unfortunately that IS what he wants right now!

 

Right. And if he doesn't want cow, then I don't want him. He has done some things indicating he may be cow-desiring in the future. Someday he may want cows, but this particular cow may have moooved on by then.

 

I'm sorry but the bottom line right now is that he doesn't want to get married. Are you okay with that? I know you don't like the thought of moving out, but do you think that living together will help him move towards marriage?

 

Of course I am okay with him not wanting to get married -- right now. I am not okay (in the relationship) if he doesn't want to get married -- ever. Then the cow moves on to a greener pasture. I can't say for certain what is causing him to balk at marriage. If I take his reason "the economy" at face value, living together won't help us move towards marriage. Only time and GDP growth will. Stupid reason? Excuse? Maybe. Still need to think about it.

 

That's really what I (currently, as of this second) believe -- he wants to get married, to me (!), someday (!).

 

Basically, at some point he has to perform some concrete actions which proclaim his intentions --or-- I will ask him to move out. I am not sure how much time I should allot to this process. Right now my gut feeling is give it 6 months. But I still waffle between 2 seconds and a year. I'm not feeling very decisive right now!! And it won't hurt anything much to put the heavy thinking on hold until after Mom leaves. I'll have enough to deal with when she's here . Putting everything on hold before she showed up really took the short-term time pressure off. I'm grateful to the community here for helping me see that was the right decision.

[Lauriebell82]

Of course I am okay with him not wanting to get married -- right now. I am not okay (in the relationship) if he doesn't want to get married -- ever. Then the cow moves on to a greener pasture. I can't say for certain what is causing him to balk at marriage. If I take his reason "the economy" at face value, living together won't help us move towards marriage. Only time and GDP growth will. Stupid reason? Excuse? Maybe. Still need to think about it.

 

Are you REALLY okay with not getting married right now..or are you trying to convince yourself that you are?

 

Basically, at some point he has to perform some concrete actions which proclaim his intentions --or-- I will ask him to move out. I am not sure how much time I should allot to this process. Right now my gut feeling is give it 6 months. But I still waffle between 2 seconds and a year. I'm not feeling very decisive right now!! And it won't hurt anything much to put the heavy thinking on hold until after Mom leaves. I'll have enough to deal with when she's here . Putting everything on hold before she showed up really took the short-term time pressure off. I'm grateful to the community here for helping me see that was the right decision.

 

Setting a deadline is a great idea. That's what I did. HOWEVER please set it internally. Do not give him an ultimatum, do not say "I want you to move out if we don't get engaged in 6 months, ect." He'll resent you and it will make him feel pressured again. He needs to have it be HIS decision.

[Enema]

I hate that stupid cow analogy. You don't suddenly get more of your partner when you marry them. ie. The whole cow as opposed to just the milk.

 

Everything is exactly the same.

 

To fix the analogy: Why buy the cow, when you already f'n own it?

[andwhoknew]

Are you REALLY okay with not getting married right now..or are you trying to convince yourself that you are?

 

Fingers in ears... La la la I can't hear you! haha. No seriously, in a perfect world, of course he should have wanted to get married at the exact same time I figured out I wanted to marry him. I'm not happy it's taking him so long to figure out what he really wants. As long as I see progress, I think I could be happy waiting. Even turtles get across the finish line eventually. (See, it wasn't a cow analogy!) What brought this to a head was, I felt we were stalled and took action to get things going again.

 

Setting a deadline is a great idea. That's what I did. HOWEVER please set it internally.

 

Good point and agreed. If I didn't do what you suggest, when/if it actually happened, I would always be wondering if he really wanted to of his own accord or if he just felt time pressure.

 

Also agreed (with virtually everyone) that after it actually happens, PMC is a given.

[andwhoknew]

Why buy the cow, when you already f'n own it?

 

I want to be with someone who wants to formally purchase a cow, not just think he owns one because he is hanging out with one under the same tree indefinitely. OK! Now I'll drop the stupid cow analogy. Sorry!

 

He certainly doesn't own me. He currently enjoys some of the benefits (and frustrations) of cohabiting. If he is content with this and doesn't want more commitment, I will move on, and he will find someone else to cohabit with.

 

And of course the decision to make a formal commitment should not be taken lightly. That's why I've been trying to be so patient. Now I think the patience is running out. It hurts but if he doesn't want to, for whatever reason, that's life. People aren't always what they seem. I can't wait around forever pinning my happiness on him eventually figuring out what he wants.

 

Edit to add:

 

What you seem to be suggesting is that there is no reason for a person (man, specifically?) to enter marriage when he can cohabit. If so, that's an awfully bleak view of marriage you hold. I won't spend a lot of time explaining why this isn't the case for everyone -- just ask the people who are currently fighting for the right to marry in many countries, including my home the US.

[Enema]

He certainly doesn't own me. (1)He currently enjoys some of the benefits (and frustrations) of cohabiting. If he is content with this and doesn't (2)want more commitment, I will move on, and he will find someone else to cohabit with.

 

1) My problem with this is that you (and many others!) seem to expect a big change in your relationship once you get married. Nothing changes, it's just a piece of paper.

 

2) You should be fully committed to him now.

 

I'm married - it's a stupid antiquated practice imo. But, it shut her parents up and didn't cost me much, so I gave in.

 

What you seem to be suggesting is that there is no reason for a person (man, specifically?) to enter marriage when he can cohabit.

 

Nope, no real reason for anyone to get married, not just men.

 

If so, that's an awfully bleak view of marriage you hold. I won't spend a lot of time explaining why this isn't the case for everyone -- just ask the people who are currently fighting for the right to marry in many countries, including my home the US.

 

Why do you idolize marriage like a "goal" everyone should strive for?

 

The people fighting for the right to get married I believe are doing so more to defend their human rights rather than for any real benefit they're missing out on from marriage. Insurance, inheritence etc - all the practical things marriage gives can all be sorted outside the confines of marriage.

[andwhoknew]

Enema -- I'm not going to debate the benefits of marriage. Marriage is important to me and that's what is germane to this thread. Having been there, done that, I feel I have realistic expectations.

[Mary3]

What a man means : When a man says " I don't want to get married " it means " I don't want to get married " No secret clues there..FACT.

 

What is this secret ring fund ? I think its BS.

 

Why 2012 ? Because thats 3 more years away and he can get you to be quiet about marriage for awhile...

 

I would BACK away and STOP !

 

My friend did this. I posted this earlier. She FORCED him to marry her . He didnt want to lose her so he did after 3 years. I predict DOOM as many readers did here too.

 

Find a man who wants to marry you.

 

Never force , bribe , threaten or coerce someone into marrying you....EVER ~!

[lkjh]

Enema, your wife is a lucky woman.

[boldjack]

AWK, It's very sad that both of you don't want the same thing at the same time. It's also sad that you feel that a relationship without marriage is time wasted. Not true. But don't lose heart. I am living proof that it will come when it's ment to come. My first marriage (church, minister, choir, flowers,8 groomsmen, 8 bridesmaids, the whole shooting match, lasted about as long as it took the wedding cake to spoil. We married because thats what my first wife wanted, as well as my parents, her parents, and both our family and friends. My second took much longer, but has lasted for many years and will probably end when I croak. My Lady NEVER pressured me before marriage and has never tried to change me after marriage. Whether we lived together or were wed, didn't matter, because she is the best of the best of the best

[Lauriebell82]

Enema -- I'm not going to debate the benefits of marriage. Marriage is important to me and that's what is germane to this thread. Having been there, done that, I feel I have realistic expectations.

 

True, marriage is important to me too. I have heard though that life doesn't really change when you get married. My best friend has actually said the exact same thing. Just kind of makes you wonder why everyone strives for it so much if it doesn't make much of a difference to your relationship...

 

For me I'm just done be fixated. Last night I suggested that my bf and I go out to dinner tonight and he said that we shouldn't to save money. I already have a hefty savings account (moreso then he does) but he made it this huge point that we should save money. I asked him specifically what I'm saving for and he got weird and said "none of your beeswax." Yeah it's comments like that, which usually throw me for a loop. Instead I just blew it off and said "okay." I don't really know where he was going with that nor do I care at this point. He wants to act weird like that he can. I'm not going to let it phase me. And if your BF makes weird comments OP, then make sure it doesn't throw you off either. Blow it off like nothing is wrong. Act non-chalent. If you don't let him get to you then it will most likely take the pressure off your relationship.

[Aloros]

AWK - I think you're on the right track. No need to set ultimatums, because who wants to feel they've forced someone to marry them (and some people are just contrary and will seriously balk at the notion)? Set an internal deadline - 6 months sounds like a good idea to me - and start living your life for you. Get out, start a new hobby, reconnect with friends. If the deadline passes and there's no proposal, then you can walk away with your dignity intact.

 

If he's got that ring designed and that secret wedding fund, why is he waiting? Economy? How much sense does that make? Does getting married suddenly mean that the poor economy has more of an effect on you? I don't get it. Marriage can be done on the cheap if you really want it.

 

It sounds like he's simply not ready and he's communicating this very poorly.

[andwhoknew]

Economy? How much sense does that make?

 

It makes zero sense to me. Maybe he feels he can't be married unless we throw a big catered party and have guaranteed employment? Maybe he's worried about the marriage tax penalty?

 

It sounds like he's simply not ready and he's communicating this very poorly.

 

Amen to communicating poorly. I think you are right about just being not ready.

 

Sometimes, he will give a string of random excuses instead of just stating his reasons. Like once he didn't want to study. So he made an excuse about (paraphrased) "the book is terrible and the tests are all garbage anyway and the game is on and I really needed to work from home tonight..." See how he just contradicted himself? Does he want to work, or watch the game? The real reason is, he just didn't feel like studying. He wants to study, he needs to study, he just doesn't feel like it.

 

If I don't pick up on that, I might spend time trying to help by asking why the book is terrible and could we find a better book? i.e. trying to solve a problem he doesn't even have.

 

I think his views on marrying right now are like that. He doesn't want to, for some unexplained reason, and he's making up some garbage excuses.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and they're completely valid concerns.

 

But I don't know which it is. If I take everything at face value it doesn't make sense. If I try to read things into what he says/does, I'm just guessing.

 

And you know what? It's making me angry. On an issue this important, he is jerking my chain around because he won't come out and discuss his preferences like an adult. I am deeply hurt by what he said and did, and on top of it I don't feel like I can even express my hurt to him because this culture will just tell him that I'm a clingy needy woman trying to force him into marriage. Better to coddle him by pretending I Don't Care, otherwise he might feel pressured. Oh noes! But, if I'm cheerful enough and busy enough and independent enough, then he might come around with a ring after all!

 

This isn't about trying to get him to marry me. It's about him stating clearly what his goals for this relationship are. Because there is another human being involved here (me) who happens to think her future is pretty damn important. If he had just said what he wanted upfront I would respect that much more.

 

Well, that was pretty angry. I guess I am done laughing about it. So far my three stages of grief have been bawling, laughing, and now anger. I can't wait to see what comes next.

 

Thank you for letting me vent here. It helps A LOT. It is SO nice to have people to talk to about this! And coming here also helps me from going home and saying this stuff out loud. I mean, as angry as I am right now, I don't have any desire to hurt him over this, and I have felt tempted to say hurtful things during this ordeal. Thank you for reading and being patient with me. And I do very much appreciate all your advice and listening.

[Prodigal Princess]

I'm married - it's a stupid antiquated practice imo. But, it shut her parents up and didn't cost me much, so I gave in.

 

You are a true romantic.

[Lauriebell82]

This isn't about trying to get him to marry me. It's about him stating clearly what his goals for this relationship are. Because there is another human being involved here (me) who happens to think her future is pretty damn important. If he had just said what he wanted upfront I would respect that much more.

 

It pretty much is about getting him to marry you. I am not saying that to be mean, it's just the truth. You want to get married to him, he's not rready, therefore you want to get him ready so he'll marry you. It sounds horrible when you put it that way, but that's pretty much what it is. That being said, I know that wanting your boyfriend to committ when he's not ready for it is hard and frustrating. I think you are already angry and resentful and if that continues then when/if the proposal does come you won't even enjoy it. I'm trying to take my own advice here because it's good advice.

 

On the "him being upfront" issue. I wonder why my boyfriend won't be upfront with me either. However I think that it may be hard for guys to express to their gf's what they are feeling. I mean this is an issue that can make or break your relationship. I'm sure he doesn't want to let you go, so maybe he is afraid that if he just flat out tells you he doesn't want to get married that you will bolt. Plus he may just figure that he wants to marry you someday so giving you excuses IS a way of telling you he isn't ready. But it sucks because in essense, it's like he's stringing you along.

 

Wow, I sound smart, where did that come from?

[Aloros]

And you know what? It's making me angry. On an issue this important, he is jerking my chain around because he won't come out and discuss his preferences like an adult. I am deeply hurt by what he said and did, and on top of it I don't feel like I can even express my hurt to him because this culture will just tell him that I'm a clingy needy woman trying to force him into marriage. Better to coddle him by pretending I Don't Care, otherwise he might feel pressured. Oh noes! But, if I'm cheerful enough and busy enough and independent enough, then he might come around with a ring after all! quote]

 

I think you've got every right to express your hurt. Sit him down, express your hurt, but let it go afterwards, whether or not you get through to him (part of that's up to him, really).

 

I think it's important to be cheerful, busy, and independent not for HIS sake, but for YOURS.

 

Fact is, if he was ready to marry you, he would have asked you already, or at least be seriously on the way to asking you. You can't make him be ready. It's out of your control (and I know how that smarts, believe me!). This is a major part of your life, your future, and you just have no control over it. It SUCKS.

 

What you do have control over is you. If you're cheerful, busy, and independent, it'll make it all the easier on you if it comes down to leaving. It might not come to that. Maybe he'll come around. I think at this point, though, it should be about protecting yourself and your feelings.