Your thoughts on free will

[chris250]

What are your beliefs about free will? I can't seem to find anything in the bible that suggests that humans have a free will. I find more evidence of God overriding the will of men in order to accomplish His purposes.

 

I do not believe in free will. I know that free will is a more popular view among both the religious and secular crowd. I have more reason to believe that God has preordained everything that happens in this world.

 

He didn't consult with us when He created us so why would He consult with us in saving us? You didn't ask to be born into this world and you didn't ask to be born again of the Spirit. This was all a divine act of God alone.

 

Even the fall of humanity was preordained. It was God's will that Adam & Eve be deceived by the devil in the garden of eden. The people who are not serving God at this present time is because it's God's will that they do not serve Him right now. It does not mean it will always be that way.

 

I believe God created both light and darkness, good & evil. If God wanted this present world to be a utopia society He would make it happen but for some strange reason that's not God's will. God's going to save everyone in the end.

 

I also believe that even the folks who believe in free will were preordained by God to believe that way.

 

I believe that if God wants me to be in a serious long term relationship right now He would make it happen either by softening the hearts of certain women I come in contact with and/or softening my heart.

 

Right now I don't want a relationship and I intend to keep it that way until I'm 70 years old. The Lord would have to change my heart if He wanted me to get in one sooner.

[knaveman]

What are your beliefs about free will? I can't seem to find anything in the bible that suggests that humans have a free will. I find more evidence of God overriding the will of men in order to accomplish His purposes.

 

I am no expert on the bible, I'm not a Christian, but I do remember this story from the Sunday school I went to. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_would_God_ask_Abraham_to_kill_his_son_in_order_to_prove_his_faith_and_if_God_does_ask_people_to_sin_how_are_you_to_know_that_direction_comes_from_Him

 

I do not believe in free will. I know that free will is a more popular view among both the religious and secular crowd. I have more reason to believe that God has preordained everything that happens in this world.

 

He didn't consult with us when He created us so why would He consult with us in saving us? You didn't ask to be born into this world and you didn't ask to be born again of the Spirit. This was all a divine act of God alone.

 

I do believe in free will and I don't think God created us to be his puppets. I think there is a little more to our lives. If God preordained everything in our lives and made us this way then why would he need to save us? It suggests that he needs to save us from the choices we have made, but he has already made all our choices for us then there would be nothing to save.

 

I believe that if God wants me to be in a serious long term relationship right now He would make it happen either by softening the hearts of certain women I come in contact with and/or softening my heart.

 

Right now I don't want a relationship and I intend to keep it that way until I'm 70 years old. The Lord would have to change my heart if He wanted me to get in one sooner.

 

It seems that this has to do with your belief in free will more than anything. If God has already decided everything then at least there is a reason for the pain and heartache and loneliness. It's nothing I did or by any choice I made, it's what God has planned out for me. That makes it ok.

 

By the way, I have really enjoyed the topics you post. They seem to spark pretty good discussions, keep it up.

[chris250]

I admit it is a great mystery why God would preordain for us to fail for a season and then save us later. But causes all things to work together for good.

 

It seems to me that God has designed me to fail and to be weak. Failure keeps me humble. If I succeeded and was strong then I would become one arrogant person. If I'm going to boast at all I boast in the Lord's strength and His righteousness.

 

All of my righteousness is filthy rags. I truly believe God has put roadblocks in my path for now. He uses all kinds of means for roadblocks. I have a masturbation addiction that I'm probably not meant to get over in this life.

 

All I know is that for right now God does not want me to get rid of my sexual addiction because it still has a useful purpose as far as keeping me humble and dependent on Him. How will I know when He wants me to get rid of it? When I lose the desire to masturbate.

 

God is 100% sovereign. There is no power on earth that can usurp His sovereignty. Paul had a thorn in his flesh and he prayed for God to remove it but He didn't.

 

I believe God has purposely set up roadblocks for me to fail at overcoming my addictions. He has purposely set up roadblocks to keep me from getting seriously involved with a girl.

 

The very fact that God will save everybody is proof that He is just and He takes full responsibility in all our shortcomings and flaws.

[andrewrost3241981]

I believe in free will. I am Catholic and although I can't say for certain that this is the reason (only God really knows for sure) but I believe that God gave us free will because he wanted to create beings that would love him in return because we actually want to love him and chose to love him. I don't believe that he created us as "robots" that do what ever he wants us to do. I believe that real love is something that we actually WANT to give to someone else. I don't believe that it is possible to force someone to love someone else. True love is something that someone must choose to give to someone else by their own free will.

[electric_sheep]

The whole notion of free will is one of the great mysteries of life. I think the answer is far more complicated than we could ever conceive.

 

If you are religious, and have beliefs regarding karma or an intervening God, then clearly free will gets limited. And a limitation in one area sort of spans out into an entire network, implying limitations everywhere. If "something" was meant to happen, then all the events leading up to that something were preordained on some level, and none of the people involved in them could be truly considered 100% "free".

 

Likewise, if you are a materialist, then there is plenty of evidence that free will is complicated by biological ideas of the brain. Think about drug interactions, mental illness (bipolar), Alzheimer's disease, etc... My friend is taking anti-depressants and has gained 15 lbs., which is totally normal for the meds he is taking. So... is he "freely" deciding to eat that cheeseburger, or is it the pull of his meds, manifesting itself in the way they stimulate the histimine receptors in his stomach. Maybe any one individual choice is free, but he is under a constant "pull", making it very likely he will over time make certain decisions.

 

Likewise, there are cases of people having complete personality changes after suffering a head injury. Peaceful people becoming violent, e.g. It appears, on many levels, that our "will" is at least somewhat determined by biological things... hormones, biochemistry, the neuronal map in our heads.

 

Indeed, a truly materialistic viewpoint on the universe almost seems to exclude the idea of free will, in many ways, and it begs the question what exactly is it that is free? The bundle of neurons in your brain?

 

Even the judicial system understands the gray areas, when we try to determine if someone was of "sound" mind or not, and in the case of defense by "insanity".

 

Needless to say, free will is much more complicated than it at first appears. I think Kant considered it one of 3 "unknowables".

[electric_sheep]

PS

 

If free will isn't some absolute thing, then this has all sorts of implications with regards to notions of blame, guilt, punishment, and other areas where we "judge" others and their behavior.

 

Maybe it makes more sense for us to judge someone's actions than to judge them personally.

[Geishawhelk]

If you are religious, and have beliefs regarding karma or an intervening God, then clearly free will gets limited.

 

Oh crikey, not the 'karma' crap again....

I wish people wouldn't talk about something they know nothing about.

 

karma doesn't limit your free will. if you're Hindu, you have NO free will, it's all pre-ordained (maybe Chris is Hindu without realising it....)

and if you're Buddhist, Karma has nothing to do with Free will.

 

Chris - get some sleep.

You'll feel better in the morning.

[Adamagnet]

Humanity can most certainly rationalize the decision making process as "free will", so it exists as a concept, but when it is understood that all decisions are based from the electro-chemical state of the brain, then it can be seen that humanity's will is constrained within biological boundaries.

[Moose]

Chris,

 

What is Love to you?

 

It's a CHOICE.

 

IF we didn't have free will, we couldn't make any choices....and we wouldn't be able to Love our Lord with a contrite heart. We would just be pre-programmed robots at that point.

I believe God has purposely set up roadblocks for me to fail at overcoming my addictions.

And you're absolutely right.

 

I purposely melt gold to remove impurities....it has to go through INTENSE heat so the dross floats to the top and I can then skim the impurities out resulting in pureness.

 

Roadblocks = Opportunities

[electric_sheep]

I wish people wouldn't talk about something they know nothing about.

 

Yeah, that irritates me too.

 

karma doesn't limit your free will. if you're Hindu, you have NO free will, it's all pre-ordained (maybe Chris is Hindu without realising it....)

and if you're Buddhist, Karma has nothing to do with Free will.

 

Having NO free will is the ultimate limitation on free will.

 

Any system of cause/effect (philosophic, religious, and/or scientific), implies limitations on free will if there is the possibility that human agents can be "recruited" somehow into the "laws" of the system. I really do believe it's as simple as that. Once people are recruited into the chain of cause/effect the strong notion of free will disappears entirely.

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a close scrutiny of Vedic literature revealed such cases, and I'm sure the Bible has examples too. Whether or not this represents a fallacy in the opinion of one or more of the theoretical traditions of some religion is another matter entirely.

 

In contrast, free will is under assault by science not because we get "recruited" as agents of the chain, but because the "laws" themselves apply to us. To someone who believes in strong determinism, the "I" becomes merely an observer watching things unfold, and the notion that you choose anything at all is merely an illusion.

 

Even a weak sort of determinism is problematic. Are the deterministic "gaps" really free will? According to quantum mechanics I can't tell you exactly where an electron is going to be (things are not strongly deterministic), yet I still don't think of the electron as making a "choice". Is there something modern sciene is missing (Einstein thought so), and if so that just chases the notion of free will down another rabbit hole. If not, maybe that's where the real mystery lies.. in that determistic "gap". I suppose if there is any chance of their being a soul that's where it lies. Of course, now I'm talking non-sense.

[knaveman]

Any system of cause/effect (philosophic, religious, and/or scientific), implies limitations on free will if there is the possibility that human agents can be "recruited" somehow into the "laws" of the system. I really do believe it's as simple as that. Once people are recruited into the chain of cause/effect the strong notion of free will disappears entirely.

 

How does cause and effect limit free will? If I know that by saying certain things or doing certain things to someone it will hurt them, my free will hasn't been removed. I still choose to hurt or not to hurt. I still choose to say or not to say regardless of the result. I have one hundred percent control over what I do with my hand or my mouth, that is free will.

[Geishawhelk]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a close scrutiny of Vedic literature revealed such cases, and I'm sure the Bible has examples too.

 

Doubtless.....

Name one.

 

Whether or not this represents a fallacy in the opinion of one or more of the theoretical traditions of some religion is another matter entirely.

Come again....?

What's a "theoretical religion"....?

 

 

In contrast, free will is under assault by science not because we get "recruited" as agents of the chain, but because the "laws" themselves apply to us. To someone who believes in strong determinism, the "I" becomes merely an observer watching things unfold, and the notion that you choose anything at all is merely an illusion.

Isn't this nihilism...?

 

Even a weak sort of determinism is problematic. Are the deterministic "gaps" really free will? According to quantum mechanics I can't tell you exactly where an electron is going to be (things are not strongly deterministic), yet I still don't think of the electron as making a "choice". Is there something modern sciene is missing (Einstein thought so), and if so that just chases the notion of free will down another rabbit hole. If not, maybe that's where the real mystery lies.. in that determistic "gap". I suppose if there is any chance of their being a soul that's where it lies. Of course, now I'm talking non-sense.

I'm so glad you recognised that, I was about to say the same thing.

[chris250]

It has been my experience at least in the dating department that there is no free will. If we had free will then we could choose the kind of people we would be attracted to.

 

I have found no evidence that suggests that attraction is a choice. If anything I find more evidence that I can't help who I'm attracted to.

 

I suspect God has His hand behind it. I've been on both sides of this. He's hardened some women's hearts from me and He has also hardened my heart from some women too.

 

Why do I think this? well have you ever had the experience of meeting a girl that you were not attracted to but you knew that you should be because she would make a good wife for most men?

 

I have had that experience before. Actually it was just recently when I stopped seeing a girl who has just about everything that any guy could want or should want.

 

I was not attracted to her in a romantic way. I felt bad because I knew that I should have been attracted to her. I should have romantic feelings for her and I couldn't understand why I didn't have those feelings.

 

I could never understand why I didn't make much of an effort to call her and spend time with her. For awhile I made excuses for myself but deep down it was because I just wasn't into her.

 

I felt bad because I had no reason not to be into her. She's done nothing wrong. She was attentive to me and faithful and even ran errands for me sometimes. She showed classic signs of being wife material in the future. I knew most guys would be lucky to run into her.

 

So I suspect that God hardened my heart towards her because she wasn't the one that He had prepared for me. I couldn't do anything about the lack of romantic feelings on my part. I didn't choose to not be gone over her.

 

Even to this day I feel like I made a mistake to let her go but if my heart wasn't all that enthusiastic about her then letting her go was the only option. I should have had high romantic interest level in her. She was a good looking girl too. I just didn't feel that connection on my end.

 

God hardened Pharoah's heart for a time in the bible. So I got to thinking that maybe God really is behind hardening and softening our hearts in different areas of life and for different purposes.

[Geishawhelk]

It has been my experience at least in the dating department that there is no free will. If we had free will then we could choose the kind of people we would be attracted to.

You do.

It's just that they don't like you very much.

 

I have found no evidence that suggests that attraction is a choice. If anything I find more evidence that I can't help who I'm attracted to.

But you can, because you can also choose who you're NOT attracted to. Attraction is not merely a question of visual impact. it's the whole package. Attraction doesn't end at what a person looks like. It begins with their temperament.

Oh dear...

I suspect God has His hand behind it. I've been on both sides of this. He's hardened some women's hearts from me and He has also hardened my heart from some women too.

Trust me - if a woman has hardened her heart against you, your god had nothing to do with it. I'd say it was more your doing, and judging by your outrageous and ridiculous posts/threads, I think I'm spot on....

 

Why do I think this? well have you ever had the experience of meeting a girl that you were not attracted to but you knew that you should be because she would make a good wife for most men?

No But then, I'm a woman. I'm looking at this from a woman's POV. And from where I'm standing, it's not a preetty sight.

 

I have had that experience before. Actually it was just recently when I stopped seeing a girl who has just about everything that any guy could want or should want.

Yes., but she thought better of it. I would guess that she dumped you.

If she was everything you wanted and the feeling was mutual - why would you dump her?

 

I was not attracted to her in a romantic way. I felt bad because I knew that I should have been attracted to her. I should have romantic feelings for her and I couldn't understand why I didn't have those feelings.

You're incapable. You're not 70 yet, remember?

Everything will kick in then. Just wait. Be patient. Lthe girls alone.

 

I could never understand why I didn't make much of an effort to call her and spend time with her. For awhile I made excuses for myself but deep down it was because I just wasn't into her.

I think it was more the subliminal vibes she was sending you.

like...."No way Jose!!"

 

I felt bad because I had no reason not to be into her. She's done nothing wrong. She was attentive to me and faithful and even ran errands for me sometimes. She showed classic signs of being wife material in the future. I knew most guys would be lucky to run into her.

 

Shoot! Oh sorry! We're talking about lassie here! That explains it....

 

So I suspect that God hardened my heart towards her because she wasn't the one that He had prepared for me. I couldn't do anything about the lack of romantic feelings on my part. I didn't choose to not be gone over her.

No, that's right. None of this garbage you're coming out with is your idea at all. It's all god's doing.

 

Hang on...

You know when you said you insulted god and he didn't strike you down with a bolt of lightning?

Well, I told you he'd get his revenge. perhaps this is it.

To make you so completely unfanciable to any female, that you'll only date in your 70's, by which time it will be too late......

 

Even to this day I feel like I made a mistake to let her go but if my heart wasn't all that enthusiastic about her then letting her go was the only option. I should have had high romantic interest level in her. She was a good looking girl too. I just didn't feel that connection on my end.

Well we can all thank god for that then, can't we.....?

 

God hardened Pharoah's heart for a time in the bible. So I got to thinking that maybe God really is behind hardening and softening our hearts in different areas of life and for different purposes.

Speak for yourself. My heart isn't hardened because I have a partner and I'm deleriously happy.

So what did I do right that you haven't?

Maybe I just relax, am less anally retentive, less analytical and far more laid back than you?

or maybe you're just being idiotic?

[Trialbyfire]

Chris, I'm going tell you to jump off a bridge. Will you do this right now? If not, you've chosen to exercise your free will to not listen to me...

[chris250]

You do.

It's just that they don't like you very much.

 

 

But you can, because you can also choose who you're NOT attracted to. Attraction is not merely a question of visual impact. it's the whole package. Attraction doesn't end at what a person looks like. It begins with their temperament.

Oh dear...

 

Trust me - if a woman has hardened her heart against you, your god had nothing to do with it. I'd say it was more your doing, and judging by your outrageous and ridiculous posts/threads, I think I'm spot on....

 

No But then, I'm a woman. I'm looking at this from a woman's POV. And from where I'm standing, it's not a preetty sight.

 

 

Yes., but she thought better of it. I would guess that she dumped you.

If she was everything you wanted and the feeling was mutual - why would you dump her?

 

 

You're incapable. You're not 70 yet, remember?

Everything will kick in then. Just wait. Be patient. Lthe girls alone.

 

 

I think it was more the subliminal vibes she was sending you.

like...."No way Jose!!"

 

 

 

Shoot! Oh sorry! We're talking about lassie here! That explains it....

 

 

No, that's right. None of this garbage you're coming out with is your idea at all. It's all god's doing.

 

Hang on...

You know when you said you insulted god and he didn't strike you down with a bolt of lightning?

Well, I told you he'd get his revenge. perhaps this is it.

To make you so completely unfanciable to any female, that you'll only date in your 70's, by which time it will be too late......

 

 

Well we can all thank god for that then, can't we.....?

 

God hardened Pharoah's heart for a time in the bible. So I got to thinking that maybe God really is behind hardening and softening our hearts in different areas of life and for different purposes.

Speak for yourself. My heart isn't hardened because I have a partner and I'm deleriously happy.

So what did I do right that you haven't?

Maybe I just relax, am less anally retentive, less analytical and far more laid back than you?

or maybe you're just being idiotic?

 

 

It is not always my fault that a woman is not attracted to me. It's unrealistic to think that as long as I don't do anything wrong I"m guaranteed a certain result.

 

It's not always the woman's fault that I wasn't attracted to her either. I've been on both sides of this. I can treat a girl right and that's not a guarantee of anything and vice versa.

 

If I turn down a date it's because God put the desire in my heart to do it. Therefore He hardened my heart. You don't think God is capable of changing our desires?

[chris250]

Chris, I'm going tell you to jump off a bridge. Will you do this right now? If not, you've chosen to exercise your free will to not listen to me...

 

But you are not God. That's not a good comparison you gave. You as a human being do not have the power to soften or harden my heart. You don't have the power to change my will to do or not do something. God does.

 

If God wanted to take me out of this world through means of having me jump off a bridge then He would make it happen. He would use the means necessary that would drive me to jump. Free will implies that God needs our help to carry out His will.

[Storyrider]

Why on earth would you expect to be automatically attracted to someone just because she would make a good wife and mother? You're attracted to the person who makes you feel alive and who excites you and who you want to strip naked and take to bed.

 

Making a good meatloaf and bringing your laundry to the cleaners and even raising your children has nothing to do with that.

[Storyrider]

This isn't about God at all. This is about you not wanting what you believe society expects of you.

[Geishawhelk]

You don't think God is capable of changing our desires?

 

God doesn't exist.

At least, the god you describe doesn't.

It flies against 2and a half millennia of faith to see god the way you have chosen to.

You are so misguided and blinded in your perception that it would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

You are basing your entire existence on a completely misguided and wholly mistaken concept.

 

If you choose - and yes, it IS your choice - to lead an existence governed by the entirely flawed and blinkered opinions you have developped, you are wasting a lifetime in pursuit of something completely fictitious, and your days will have been completely wasted.

 

God really doesn't want this for you, so why condemn yourself to such a restricted and strait-jacketed, narrow-minded mind-set?

 

The moment you come to this realisation, your life will be happier, simpler and free from such idiotic rationale.

[chris250]

God doesn't exist.

At least, the god you describe doesn't.

It flies against 2and a half millennia of faith to see god the way you have chosen to.

You are so misguided and blinded in your perception that it would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

You are basing your entire existence on a completely misguided and wholly mistaken concept.

 

If you choose - and yes, it IS your choice - to lead an existence governed by the entirely flawed and blinkered opinions you have developped, you are wasting a lifetime in pursuit of something completely fictitious, and your days will have been completely wasted.

 

God really doesn't want this for you, so why condemn yourself to such a restricted and strait-jacketed, narrow-minded mind-set?

 

The moment you come to this realisation, your life will be happier, simpler and free from such idiotic rationale.

 

 

I honestly don't care how unpopular my views are. It's also idiotic to believe something just because the majority believe it and it's popular.

 

Truth is truth because it's true NOT because a majority of people say it's true. So I don't care how many theologians in church history would disagree with my views. I don't care how many religions think my ideas are ridiculous.

 

I believe what I believe because it makes sense to me not because it's popular for the last 2000 years. If the whole world decided tomorrow that 2+ 2 = 5 it still wouldn't make it so.

 

Your views don't have to make sense to anybody but you as long as you are not harming others or doing anything illegal in the process.

 

My beliefs are not dangerous to society. I have no intention of legislating my doctrine in our government. If anything I'm glad that church & state are kept separate. I even want to keep prayer out of the schools. I base that on a biblical perspective too.

 

And by the way I'm not the least bit concerned nor worried about wasting my days. So what if I risk wasting this life away? I don't look at my time as a waste at all. I believe I was meant to live this way.

 

As long as I'm going to heaven after I die that's all that matters. I'll see you in heaven whether you like it or not.

 

No I didn't choose to deny free will. Belief is not a choice. You didn't choose to believe the sky is blue. You just believe it because your mind is convinced of it. You can't choose to believe otherwise.

 

You could lie to yourself and say the sky is green but your mind will still believe it's blue.

 

In the same way your belief in your own existence is not a choice. Can you just decide tomorrow not to believe that you exist? Try it and let me know.

[Geishawhelk]

I honestly don't care how unpopular my views are. It's also idiotic to believe something just because the majority believe it and it's popular.

It's also idiotic to persist in perpetuating a stupid and dumb idea and be the only one doing so in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are wrong and everyone else is right. Think of it this way.

 

Truth is truth because it's true NOT because a majority of people say it's true. So I don't care how many theologians in church history would disagree with my views. I don't care how many religions think my ideas are ridiculous.

What truth would that be? tell me what that truth is, complete with substantiated evidence, and I'll consider it.

 

If by truth, you mean faith, then that's not truth, it's belief. Which in your case amounts to complete and utter conjecture.

I believe what I believe because it makes sense to me not because it's popular for the last 2000 years. If the whole world decided tomorrow that 2+ 2 = 5 it still wouldn't make it so.

You can't compare a tried and proven mathematical equasion with something you - and only you - happen to believe in. That's like comparing lemons to elephants.

Your views don't have to make sense to anybody but you as long as you are not harming others or doing anything illegal in the process.

Great.

We've gone from "truth" to "Belief" to "views".... weakening all the time. As if it had any strength to begin with!

 

My beliefs are not dangerous to society.

They're dangerous TO YOU.

 

I have no intention of legislating my doctrine in our government. If anything I'm glad that church & state are kept separate. I even want to keep prayer out of the schools. I base that on a biblical perspective too.

Which one would that be?

"Jesus wept"....?

 

 

 

And by the way I'm not the least bit concerned nor worried about wasting my days. So what if I risk wasting this life away? I don't look at my time as a waste at all. I believe I was meant to live this way.

I'm glad you're the only one that believes that, by the way.

It would be a tragedy of epic proportions if this got around as a faddy cult-type of belief.

 

As long as I'm going to heaven after I die that's all that matters. I'll see you in heaven whether you like it or not.

Prove it.

No I didn't choose to deny free will. Belief is not a choice. You didn't choose to believe the sky is blue. You just believe it because your mind is convinced of it. You can't choose to believe otherwise. You could lie to yourself and say the sky is green but your mind will still believe it's blue.

No, I know it's blue, because science has a rational and logical explanation for why the sky is blue.

 

The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air.

However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky is perceived by our eyes, as blue.

 

In the same way your belief in your own existence is not a choice. Can you just decide tomorrow not to believe that you exist? Try it and let me know.

 

Actually, I already know, without any shadow of a doubt that I do not exist, yet I do. But I don't. Even though I am here. I'm not.

I can let you know, if you want me to.

 

So there.

Which is more than can be said for your crackpot theory of your particularly odd variety of god and heaven.

[chris250]

It's also idiotic to persist in perpetuating a stupid and dumb idea and be the only one doing so in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are wrong and everyone else is right. Think of it this way.

 

 

What truth would that be? tell me what that truth is, complete with substantiated evidence, and I'll consider it.

 

If by truth, you mean faith, then that's not truth, it's belief. Which in your case amounts to complete and utter conjecture.

 

You can't compare a tried and proven mathematical equasion with something you - and only you - happen to believe in. That's like comparing lemons to elephants.

 

Great.

We've gone from "truth" to "Belief" to "views".... weakening all the time. As if it had any strength to begin with!

 

 

They're dangerous TO YOU.

 

 

Which one would that be?

"Jesus wept"....?

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you're the only one that believes that, by the way.

It would be a tragedy of epic proportions if this got around as a faddy cult-type of belief.

 

 

Prove it.

 

No, I know it's blue, because science has a rational and logical explanation for why the sky is blue.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I already know, without any shadow of a doubt that I do not exist, yet I do. But I don't. Even though I am here. I'm not.

I can let you know, if you want me to.

 

So there.

Which is more than can be said for your crackpot theory of your particularly odd variety of god and heaven.

 

 

It's only stupid because you think it is. But it is God's will that you believe in free will for the time being. He has blinded your eyes.

 

I know how much free will appeals to your ego. Even if there was evidence that you had no control of your life you would refuse to believe it because it would shatter your ego. You like to take credit. You want to think that you are God.

 

Well if you are God then prove it to me. How arrogant? You didn't even choose to come into this world. You didn't choose your race or your height. It was not your idea to create the universe.

 

So why would it be your choice which direction your life will take you? We all came into this world against our will and we will all leave it against our will sometime or another.

 

If we have free will then how come we haven't been able to cure death? All of us are victims by the simple fact that we can't even prevent our own death. Nobody likes to talk about that but it's the truth.

 

You might die tomorrow and everything you accomplished in this life will not matter. You are not guaranteed to live long enough to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Nobody's going to remember your name 500 years from now.

 

That's right. 500 years from now none of our experiences in this life are going to matter. Even the most powerful man on the face of the earth can't even prevent his own death. That doesn't sound like free will to me.

[Geishawhelk]

This response is so stupid, so blinkered so misguided, so thick, and so idiotic, I'm not even going to waste my time trying to discuss something with you logically, because you're just an idiot.

I'm just going to sit back and be entertained by the flim-flam you post and have a really good laugh at your expense.

because I can.

That's my choice.

[gopher]

Without free will, salvation would be pointless..the whole point of it is that we choose to follow Him and that than is alligned with what the Bible says about Jesus.

 

Do I believe in God? yes...sure do, don't talk about it unless asked. It's a personal relationship for me.

 

Personally, I don't care what anyone else believes...it's not offensive to me because it's different, I don't feel the need to be critical to somehow prop up my beliefs. I do believe in the Quaker approach to faith...which is "Let your life speak"...