Author chris250 Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 This response is so stupid, so blinkered so misguided, so thick, and so idiotic, I'm not even going to waste my time trying to discuss something with you logically, because you're just an idiot. I'm just going to sit back and be entertained by the flim-flam you post and have a really good laugh at your expense. because I can. That's my choice. Do what you have to do. It's not my fault that you wasted your time. You preach about personal responsibility. Well why not practice what you preach by taking responsibility for reading my posts and responding to them? Why make it out to be my fault? You make it sound like I forced you to read and respond! It sounds like you are very good at handing out criticism but you can't take it yourself. All you've done so far is criticized me while you have excused yourself. If you are going to criticize me then you better be prepared to accept criticism also. And by the way if my beliefs are only dangerous to me and nobody else then why do you care? What I'm doing with my life should not be any of your concern unless you can prove how it's going to damage the rest of society. We live in a world where everyone has a right to be miserable or happy as long as it's not ruining other people's lives. So if you think my way of life is miserable what does it matter? I have a right to be miserable. I have every right to destroy my own life if that's how you perceive my beliefs to be. Link to post Share on other sites
Author chris250 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Without free will, salvation would be pointless..the whole point of it is that we choose to follow Him and that than is alligned with what the Bible says about Jesus. Do I believe in God? yes...sure do, don't talk about it unless asked. It's a personal relationship for me. Personally, I don't care what anyone else believes...it's not offensive to me because it's different, I don't feel the need to be critical to somehow prop up my beliefs. I do believe in the Quaker approach to faith...which is "Let your life speak"... Good for you if that works. That doesn't mean your approach is better than anyone else's. Not everyone has the same calling. I don't do street preaching but I respect the christians who do. Just because street preaching is not my calling doesn't mean I'm going to try to undermine those who sincerely believe God called them to preach on the street corner. Besides they have a right to do that as long as they are not disturbing the peace. Street preaching is protected under freedom of religion. It's not like they are hurting anybody. Sure they might be a public nuisance to some but the solution is to ignore somebody that you find annoying. It's not against the law to be annoying. The way I see it is that we are all under grace so there is no right or wrong approach to witnessing. You have every right to remain silent about your beliefs or speak up about them. Either way God's view of you remains positive. Knock yourself out with whatever approach you use. Link to post Share on other sites
Author chris250 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Here is a quote from one of my myspace friend's blogs about the subject of free will, salvation, God's love, etc. "[sIZE=4]You see, I do not believe anymore that one has to make any sort of decision to accept the Spirit of God. I believe God's spirit resides in everyone because of the one who gave us the Spirit, Jesus. He is the Savior of ALL men. He was successful in His mission and He did it without your or my help. He has triumphed over Satan and the accuser which is the law. He has set us free from sin and has made the crooked paths straight. He did not ask our permission nor does He need it. He has proven once and for ALL that God's love does not hinge upon our ability to be "faithful". His Love Never changes, nor does it fail. His mercy endures forever. His grace has replaced sin and His love and acceptance is unconditional. Thank God you have been judged according to His life and not your own, because you would fail the test, as would I. He is the way. He is the truth. He is the life. He provided this Life to us as a free gift. No, not a gift that must be accepted in order to be used, but a gift that cannot be rejected. Like air, it is provided freely to all, and no one has to ask for it. He has destroyed everything that was against you, and it cannot be undone, no matter how bad you are or try to be. What He did, He did for ALL and He has received what He paid for. ALL men have the Spirit of God in them. There is no one better than anyone else. There is no one more worthy than anyone else. There is no one deserving, yet no one without Him. He has finished His work. He has seperated men from their transgressions. He has forgiven everyone, even before they were born. He did this before the world ever began. His grace was revealed to us when He tasted death in place of us all. Is it your understanding that God doesn't forgive everyone? If so, why would He require us to forgive everyone if He doesn't? Love keeps no record of wrongs. Does God keep a record of wrongs? Love doesn't seek to get its own way. Does God tell us that we must do it His way or burn? God is no respector of persons. Does God do things for one and not the other? Love never fails. Did God fail in His mission to save the world? Was Adam more powerful than God's son? Adam converted us all to sinners. Did Jesus not get us back? Did God give us a "free" will, just to turn and threaten our lives for using it? (doesn't sound free to me) Did God create men just to see them die? Could He not create faithful men? Did He not make Pharoah? Did Pharoah make himself? Who made you? Was it your idea to come here to Earth and serve God? Was it your plan to seek Him, or did He seek you? He made you just the way you are without your permission. He is the Architect. He is the Mastermind. He is the Author. He is the one who endured to the end. He is the one who is Faithful. He loves you and gave you eternal life before He even made the Earth. He alone is responsible for our lives. He has not left us to fend for ourselves. He is our Father. He makes decisions for us that effect our lives. He has decided your fate. So rest easy. You are not alone. He is with you. There is nothing wrong with you. You are His creation and you are good. Don't let anyone tell you that you do not belong to Him. He has decided what is His, and He has claimed ALL that was lost. He owns the world and everything in it, including you."[/sIZE] Link to post Share on other sites
knaveman Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Was this thread intended as a discussion on free will or simply to flaunt your beliefs? It seems that you didn't really want an exchange of ideas but only wanted to preach. There's nothing wrong with preaching if that's what you want to do, but you shouldn't ask for others thoughts on the subject. It would seem that for Christians free will doesn't really exist: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/freewill.htm http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_freewill.html and my personal favorite: http://www.google.com If you wanted to know how people of other faiths view or deal with free will you shouldn't spend so much time telling them they are wrong when they share. If you just want to argue about something I think that is what the PM is for. Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Do what you have to do. It's not my fault that you wasted your time. You preach about personal responsibility. I'm not preaching about personal responsibility. I'm stating we all have it, and it's a matter of choice as to what we decide we do in ebvery moment. it's not pre-ordained or pre-destined. Well why not practice what you preach by taking responsibility for reading my posts and responding to them? Why make it out to be my fault? You make it sound like I forced you to read and respond! I thought the thread title was "Your thoughts on Free Will" and not "These are my thoughts on free will, and I'm right and you're wrong"..... It sounds like you are very good at handing out criticism but you can't take it yourself. All you've done so far is criticized me while you have excused yourself. If you are going to criticize me then you better be prepared to accept criticism also. I'm completely prepared to accept criticism, providing it's based on logic, research, proof, hard tangible evidence and fact. Your criticism is based entirely on something you happen to believe, but that is completely unsubstantiated. Put up or shut up. And by the way if my beliefs are only dangerous to me and nobody else then why do you care? What I'm doing with my life should not be any of your concern unless you can prove how it's going to damage the rest of society. Every single human being is equally deserving of loving kindness and compassion. No matter how intelligent or how idiotic. Are you concerned that I care about you? We live in a world where everyone has a right to be miserable or happy as long as it's not ruining other people's lives. So if you think my way of life is miserable what does it matter? I have a right to be miserable. I have every right to destroy my own life if that's how you perceive my beliefs to be. Is this actually what you want to do? Why not be a bit more open to other systems and learn from them? Glean some wider information on how other Spiritual and religious structures propound. It will open your eyes to a completely different existence. One where Free Will does exist, and where you are complete mastewr of your own destiny, as am I. Remember. I have living proof my system is working. All you have is your own belief system based on faith. Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 How does cause and effect limit free will? If I know that by saying certain things or doing certain things to someone it will hurt them, my free will hasn't been removed. I still choose to hurt or not to hurt. I still choose to say or not to say regardless of the result. I have one hundred percent control over what I do with my hand or my mouth, that is free will. Let me clarify what I mean when I say by human agents getting "recruited" into the chain of cause/effect. In some peoples thinking, whether it be due to divine intervention, predestination, or some system of fate, people themselves become pawns in the cause/effect system. As an example... Joe does something terribly wrong, and as a result (in these systems) he gets run over by a bus, or his wife leaves him, or his boss fires him as a result of his action. In all of these examples people have gotten "recruited" into the cause/effect system, so they can't be construed to be truly free agents. His boss's decision to fire him couldn't have been truly free. Nor his wife's decision to leave him, or all of the bus drivers decisions leading up to the accident. In a system like this, each and every one of us could seemingly get involved in this elaborate cause/effect network. We are like pawns, carrying out some divine prescription or fate in each others lives. Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Come again....? What's a "theoretical religion"....? I use the phrase "theoretical" to distinguish between those who simply follow a religion (or follow simply), from the rich tradition of philosophical and theoretical discourse that goes on in most religions, over things like meta-ethics, metaphysics and ontology, epistemology, free will and it's implications for moral responsibility, etc... I'm surprised you don't know this, as this is particularly the case with Indian and Chinese traditions (Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, ...). There are also plenty of Christian philosophers (St. Augustine, of course) representing this tradition in the West. As for my rambling comments regarding quantum indeterminacy, I was trying to say that quantum indeterminacy in not at all evidence for free will, though some people think it may be (a stance taken by some incompatibilist libertarians, which is simply a fancy label for their viewpoint on the free will/determinism argument). And no, I don't want to get into a pissing match about facts and religious texts. You win! Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Let me clarify what I mean when I say by human agents getting "recruited" into the chain of cause/effect. In some peoples thinking, whether it be due to divine intervention, predestination, or some system of fate, people themselves become pawns in the cause/effect system. No, they don't. They're not 'pawns' because pawns have absolutely no objective discernment and they don't have free will..... As an example... Joe does something terribly wrong, and as a result (in these systems) he gets run over by a bus, or his wife leaves him, or his boss fires him as a result of his action. In all of these examples people have gotten "recruited" into the cause/effect system, so they can't be construed to be truly free agents. How on earth did you come to this logic? That's crazy.... What has he done "Terribly wrong" to get run over by a bus? And the bus driver has no choice of swerving, or braking sharply, does he? His wife has a choice as to whether to leave him or not. It could go either way - as many situations on this board will attest.... His boss can choose whether to fire him, but he could also choose to demote him, suspend him or bring disciplinary proceedings against him, which may or may not result in the loss of his job.... Because multiple possibilities are possible, nothing is pre-ordained.... His boss's decision to fire him couldn't have been truly free. Yes it was, he had a choice as to whether firing would be best, or an alternative. He had a choice.... Nor his wife's decision to leave him Yes it was, she had a choice as to whether this situation was intolerable for her, or whether she wanted to work it out somehow. She had a choice. or all of the bus drivers decisions leading up to the accident. This depends entirely on surrounding circumstances and the driver's reflexes. but there are ways of avoiding an accident, and it involves partially choosing whether to steer, brake or swerve.... In a system like this, each and every one of us could seemingly get involved in this elaborate cause/effect network. We are like pawns, carrying out some divine prescription or fate in each others lives. Well, I chose to respond to this post, even though you will tell me that it was pre-ordained that I would reply. In the negative. I saw that one coming. But it's utter bull. I am many things, but a pawn? I ain't..... Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Chris, I'm going tell you to jump off a bridge. Will you do this right now? If not, you've chosen to exercise your free will to not listen to me... Ha. Either that, or... His deterministic life arc, determined by his genetic inheritance, combined memories, present neural map, relational framework, and whatever psychological algorithm is at work, have not determined that he is going to jump off a bridge. (It's unlikely evolution would produce a neural map in humans that could so easily be derailed) I guess we will never know for sure, though I bet I can guess at what sort of reply your deterministic life arc has in store for me. Perhaps an even more interesting question is... does it even matter? Link to post Share on other sites
electric_sheep Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 How on earth did you come to this logic? That's crazy.... What has he done "Terribly wrong" to get run over by a bus? And the bus driver has no choice of swerving, or braking sharply, does he? His wife has a choice as to whether to leave him or not. It could go either way - as many situations on this board will attest.... His boss can choose whether to fire him, but he could also choose to demote him, suspend him or bring disciplinary proceedings against him, which may or may not result in the loss of his job.... Because multiple possibilities are possible, nothing is pre-ordained... Whew, you're avatar is misleading. I'm not espousing my own system, but rather that of others. I personally am agnostic on the free will/determinism debate, and I took an entire university course on the subject! I'm merely pointing out what are the possible consequences of believing in divine predestination or fate, in certain circumstances. Someone posted a perfect example in a previous message... he thought God was determining who he was attracted to or not. If he believes that, then that constitutes a limitation on free will. The conclusion he reached is true, given his assumption. Poor free will, it comes under assault from both religion and science! Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ah. Sorry. Gotcha. Oooommmmmmmm......! Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I am not sure that any of us really has free will because we are all trying to capture the same thing - happiness. Can we truly have free will if all routes are trying to capture the same point? Todd Solondz portrayed the search for happiness well in his contraversial film of the same title in 1998.. I think that the notion of free will can be a captivating fallacy. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
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