getting over an affair

[taylor]

as the NC continues, the images/remembering seem to get more intense, I really hope this passes soon.

 

Been there, done that, too, tchrgrl. The fantasies...the images and memories... are what keeps the affair partner close to us and keeps the affair alive as we go thru the withdrawal of NC. They help to soothe our grief and they have a powerful ability to make us feel the same feel-good feelings we had while were in the midst of the affair. It's as if the affair partner is still in our lives and the affair never ended.

 

These fantasies are hard to get under control. So many things can trigger them. And when we are feeling especially bad...lonely, upset, empty...we get motivated to conjure up a few of these fantasies to make us feel good again.

 

It's hard to break free from these images, but as long as you hold on to them, the affair continues...even if just in your mind. You will not be able to let go of the affair partner or the affair until you can stop the flow of mental images.

 

You can try shoving them out. Distracting yourself with other things. Avoiding things that trigger them.

 

But honestly, the only thing that helped me break away from the fantasies was time and distance. As time went by, the fantasies stopped having the ability to give me those feel good feelings that I craved. They became fuzzy and jumbled. Their impact diminished.

 

At first, when I knew this was happening, I panicked. I didn't want the fantasies to fade or to lose their ability to make me feel good. I struggled to hold on to them. But time has a way of healing. As the fantasies faded, I gained strength to let go and move on. I realized they were holding me back.

[Dexter Morgan]

Hi tchrgrl,

 

Sit your husband down and tell him you will divorce him if he doesn't go to MC.

 

She should divorce him anyway because it looks like no matter what he does, she isn't probably going to reciprocate the effort from him anyway:

 

"The therapist had me talk with my husband about how little he puts into the marriage (I know it sounds like I am blaming my husband) and what he could do to help me feel more wanted/needed and my husband blew it off. In fact, I often wondered even if he did start trying would I even be interested any more?"

 

 

Of course he doesn't want to see a therapist. He has been destroyed...she is blaming this on him....she probably wouldn't respond to any effort he puts in anyway, she said it herself.

 

So maybe she needs to do him a favor and divorce him, but not for the reasons you stated.

 

 

Your husband may have checked out of the marriage, just like you did when you had the affairs. The question is do each of you want to try to save the marriage. If you don't, divorce. You don't do anyone any good by staying in a dysfunctional marriage. If you want to save the marriage, you need to get both of you to counseling.

 

But what good is counseling going to do if she isn't going to respond to any effort?

 

 

It may just be a matter of your husband not knowing what to do to fix the problems in the marriage so he does nothing.

 

If he goes to counseling, its going to drudge up a bunch of stuff he doesn't want to think about. He doesn't want to relive her affair even if he rehashes it here and there on his own.

 

He doesn't want some counselor telling him he needs to be patient...doesn't want a counselor telling him that the affair is his fault. Some counselors WILL tell a BS that and even if they don't, it most certainly comes off as it is the BS's fault.

 

I think he may be afraid that he will become enraged if he has to go to a counselor....especially WITH her.

 

So maybe the best place to start is to go by himself. I know if I ever had to go to counseling after an affair, I wouldn't want to go with my betrayer. i'd want to go to individual counseling first.

 

But then again, with me, it wouldn't even make it to counseling. I'd leave the relationship.

 

So I wouldn't push him to MC if he doesn't want to go, but I would urge individual counseling.

[65tr6]

Did you and your wife have emotional connection problems prior to the affair or are you blaming this issue on the affair? Like Untouchable Fire pointed out, marital and affair issues can overlap. You may be dealing more with pre-affair marital issues than with the affair itself. If that's the case, your wife may be farther along in getting over the affair than you think and what you may be dealing with is pre-affair issues. What do you think?

 

My husband and I were having trouble connecting emotionally for about 3 years prior to my affair. We became distant. We both felt it but didn't know how to fix it. The affair just made it even more difficult to connect emotionally. But the problem existed before the affair. We are dealing with it now with a new determination and with better means.

 

This looks like a carbon copy of what we are going through. You and UF both hit the nail on the head....The issues before the A and the ones that lead to A are different but it is very difficult not to address both at the same time. They do overlap. I believe IC is helpful in identifying the issues to lead to an A and I am a huge proponent of that.

 

The Affair has been a wake up call for both of us (me more so than her i would say) to take a step back and go into major introspection...I mean everything. Look at times before marriage, pre-affair, and during the affair.

 

I asked her last night about my emotional needs not being met well before the affair and why is that I still loved her ? I dont know what the answer is except I had lowered my expectations, without actually blaming my wife, for the trouble in our marriage. We become part of "giving up relationship" marriages where more than 90% marriages fall under. That would have probably continued for rest of lives until the A and subsequent admission. We would have continued to lead a "giving up" marriage for ever and now we both agree 100% that is not what we want. So the A coming out in the open has been great for both of us.

 

That she saw more negatives in our relationship and at times with a magnifying glass is what made her more vulnerable to the A. I know she was not looking for one, but as Dr Harley says all of us are wired for infidelity - and it does happen under right conditions.

 

I do agree. Get over an affair is similar to getting over a romantic relationship...There is a difference though. A true romantic relationship is based on solid foundation and the one in an A is not. Unfortunately the "feel good" feelings for most women in such relationships dont quite differentiate between the two. And it takes the same healing process to get through both. (And for woman it takes as much time for either - power of the E-bond I guess).

 

We both now understand that the e connection was missing. Regular communication is helping. It is new for both of us. We have been doing this since the d-day. She is struggling more than I am but improving every day. Couple that with no love busters (my complete 180 deg change of behavior) and both of us trying to meet each others' needs is a good start, right ?

[taylor]

I probably would have then asked the counselor...."why should I have to wait?"

 

Its bad enough he got stung by an affair from his spouse, but now HE is the one that has to wait? Something fairly out of whack with that.

 

All I have to say is, for someone to wait for a WS to come around, there better be some big freakin' rewards in that light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Can't think of what they would be.

 

Dexter,

 

The point is my husband didn't HAVE to wait. He CHOSE to wait.

 

He weighed his options - divorce or recovery.

 

Had he chosen divorce, he would not have had to wait at all.

 

But he chose recovery. And by choosing recovery, he chooses to work on the marriage knowing that it won't be fixed overnight. That it takes time. And that requires patience.

 

Recovery is not the road to take for people who are not patient, who get easily discouraged, who do not have faith that the marriage is recoverable, who are too hurt by infidelity to ever be around their betrayer again, or who no longer see any value in the marriage to make it worth the work or risk.

 

I can't tell you why my husband chose the hard work of recovery. I don't know exactly what the "freakin rewards" would be that would motivate him to do this. But there must be something he sees...something he values...because recovery is no picnic.

 

 

 

 

And did he end up cheating because of it?

 

No, he did not cheat. But he did withdraw his love from me. And I withdrew my love from him. After three years of living like this I think we both felt dead inside. He tolerated it. I did, too, until I met the OM. He made me feel alive and brought some happiness into my life. I compromised my values. It was a trade-off. I realize now that it was wrong to let myself develop feelings for another man. I am paying the price. And my husband and I are paying the price for allowing our marriage to get as weak and vulnerable as it did without doing anything constructive to turn it around.

[Dexter Morgan]

Dexter,

 

The point is my husband didn't HAVE to wait. He CHOSE to wait.

 

Right, but he isn't liking it. My point was that someone telling a BS to wait is almost like telling them to "shut up and get over it". I know thats not what the counselor meant and didn't imply it, but someone betrayed may just see it that way. It could be seen as the counselor trying to buy the WS time and almost siding with them.

 

your husband probably didn't see it that way at all, but if he really got angry over waiting, he might have.

[taylor]

She should divorce him anyway because it looks like no matter what he does, she isn't probably going to reciprocate the effort from him anyway:

 

"The therapist had me talk with my husband about how little he puts into the marriage (I know it sounds like I am blaming my husband) and what he could do to help me feel more wanted/needed and my husband blew it off. In fact, I often wondered even if he did start trying would I even be interested any more?"

 

The thing is, Dexter, her husband isn't doing anything. She has suggested MC. She has communicated her unhappiness. She has spelled out what she needs from him. Yet, no response from him. She's frustrated. She's ready to give up, throw in the towel, check out of the marriage.

 

But this isn't really what she wants to do. She wants her marriage. She's just starting to give up hope that it can ever work, given that her husband is being so unresponsive. She probably wonders if he even wants to stay married...if he wants to still be married to her?

 

So many posters on this forum scream at WS telling them they should have talked to their spouses, gone to counseling, worked on their problems, rather than run off and have an affair. But it's not that easy, as you can see from this woman's story.

 

What do you do when you want to save your marriage but your spouse appears oblivious?

 

Despite what this woman says, I believe if her husband showed some desire and interest in the marriage, and demonstrated a sincere and concerted effort to work on the marriage, she would be more than willing to join him in saving the marriage.

 

Right now, she's just tired of trying.

 

 

Of course he doesn't want to see a therapist. He has been destroyed...she is blaming this on him....she probably wouldn't respond to any effort he puts in anyway, she said it herself.

 

I don't think alot of men like going to therapy. I think if they could they would avoid it at all costs. Men hate to open up and talk. And they hate looking at themselves in the mirror. Few like to talk about weaknesses and fears. And the last thing they like discussing is their "relationship." It's foreign and uncomfortable for them.

 

Women, on the other hand, love to talk and don't feel uncomfortable discussing their relationship most of the time. And I think women can handle criticism better than men, for the most part.

 

 

 

But what good is counseling going to do if she isn't going to respond to any effort?

 

Like I said, she is just getting tired of trying to get him to DO something to help their marriage and she is probably wondering if he even has the desire to be with her anymore. She is adopting the attitude, "Well, if he has no desire...if he doesn't care..why should I."

 

She's trying to be the marriage advocate. That gets tiring if your efforts are continually met with no response.

 

 

 

If he goes to counseling, its going to drudge up a bunch of stuff he doesn't want to think about. He doesn't want to relive her affair even if he rehashes it here and there on his own.

 

He doesn't want some counselor telling him he needs to be patient...doesn't want a counselor telling him that the affair is his fault. Some counselors WILL tell a BS that and even if they don't, it most certainly comes off as it is the BS's fault.

 

I think he may be afraid that he will become enraged if he has to go to a counselor....especially WITH her.

 

All the more reason to go to counseling. He and she both need to drudge up a bunch of stuff neither one wants to think about. It's that "stuff" that's causing problems in the marriage and need to be addressed. The marriage can't be fixed if they keep shoving the problems under the carpet.

 

You know first hand how devastated an affair is. What it does to a person emotionally and physically. Therapy is a way for him to come to terms with it...deal with it...in a way that he can cope with it...so that it doesn't completely destroy him.

 

So maybe the best place to start is to go by himself. I know if I ever had to go to counseling after an affair, I wouldn't want to go with my betrayer. i'd want to go to individual counseling first.

 

And I think this is a great option. My husband did this, too. He needed to gain some perspective on the affair before he could focus on the marital issues (aside from the affair). And he was able to do it comfortably without me in the room with him. He could let it all out.

 

But then again, with me, it wouldn't even make it to counseling. I'd leave the relationship.

 

And that is the option every spouse has. There is no right or wrong answer. It's what each person personally feels is in their best interest. You make the decision and then never look back. No regrets.

 

So I wouldn't push him to MC if he doesn't want to go, but I would urge individual counseling.

 

Whatever he would be willing to do first would be a great start!

[taylor]

Right, but he isn't liking it. My point was that someone telling a BS to wait is almost like telling them to "shut up and get over it". I know thats not what the counselor meant and didn't imply it, but someone betrayed may just see it that way. It could be seen as the counselor trying to buy the WS time and almost siding with them.

 

your husband probably didn't see it that way at all, but if he really got angry over waiting, he might have.

 

My husband was very frustrated over having to wait. He is a problem solver and a very efficient one at that. So that only added to the frustration...having a problem he couldn't fix ASAP.

 

What helped him was understanding the affair process, particularly the WITHDRAWAL that follows an affair. This withdrawal period is REAL and it makes it next to impossible to deal with the marital issues until this period is over.

 

It's like a drug addict. You can't take the drugs away and expect the addict to go out the next day and turn his life around...find a job...new friends..decent place to live..pay bills..eat right...etc. First, they have to detox...go thru a nasty withdrawal period. And that takes time.

 

A person's emotions don't turn on a dime. It takes time to process them.

 

I'll agree that women take a longer time to process emotions. Men can put them in a box and bury them easier than women can, IMO

 

That is why I started this thread. To see if others felt the same way. If it does in fact take women longer to process emotions after an affair..thereby making recovery a slower and more difficult process.

 

I asked my husband what I could do to alleviate some of his frustration during this waiting period. What he wanted was reassurance that I still loved him, some small signs that I was getting over the affair, and that I had the desire to save my marriage.

[Untouchable_Fire]

The thing is, Dexter, her husband isn't doing anything. She has suggested MC. She has communicated her unhappiness. She has spelled out what she needs from him. Yet, no response from him. She's frustrated. She's ready to give up, throw in the towel, check out of the marriage.

But this isn't really what she wants to do. She wants her marriage. She's just starting to give up hope that it can ever work, given that her husband is being so unresponsive. She probably wonders if he even wants to stay married...if he wants to still be married to her?

 

You are clearly projecting to much of yourself into Tchrgrl's situation. I think Dexter is a little closer to the answer here.

 

Judging by word choice, tone, and content... she isn't really trying to save her marriage. She never really was. She is too selfish.

 

What do you do when you want to save your marriage but your spouse appears oblivious?

Despite what this woman says, I believe if her husband showed some desire and interest in the marriage, and demonstrated a sincere and concerted effort to work on the marriage, she would be more than willing to join him in saving the marriage.

Right now, she's just tired of trying.

 

Here is how this works. Based on what I have read, husband is in essence fed up with her. She has this laundry list of wants and is constantly pushing to make him take care of it. On the other hand there is no concerted effort to find out what he wants or needs.

 

Most guys will open up about relationships and talk without problems. However, you need to not make it PAINFUL! Men don't like therapists, because they are strangers. We don't like spilling our guts to people we don't trust.

 

So... if your husband isn't talking to you. There is a good chance it's your fault. Figure out where his pain points are and ease over them. Also, be trustworthy of his feelings. Do that and very few men will continue their silence.

[Reggie]

My God. What a bunch of sexist crap about men opening up and being resistant to therapy. This is utter nonsense and explains a lot about why WWs cheat. They seem comfortable pigeonholing men as if they are non-communicative drones.

 

Nothing sould be further from the truth, in my expierience. Many of my firends are what some might feel are streotypical jocks. We all excelled in college athletics and none of us has an inability or unwillingness to share our feelings. What do women think we talk about, carbeurators, NASCAR, Da Bears?

 

I read a very good article by a woman who had done lots of research on cheating wives. She found that , on the contrary, it was the women that were the poor communicators, often shutting their husbands down when the guys would start to reveal their feelings.

 

These women wanted to strictly focus on themselves and had little interest in exploring their husbands feelings. She found that the cheating wives were terrible communicators, expecting clairvoyance from their husbands.

 

I guess folks are comfortable stereotyping, just like ythe ridiculous notion that women are not having affairs for primarily sexual reasons.

 

I know so many predatory women, just looking for sex.

[taylor]

I asked her last night about my emotional needs not being met well before the affair and why is that I still loved her ? I dont know what the answer is except I had lowered my expectations, without actually blaming my wife, for the trouble in our marriage. We become part of "giving up relationship" marriages where more than 90% marriages fall under. That would have probably continued for rest of lives until the A and subsequent admission. We would have continued to lead a "giving up" marriage for ever and now we both agree 100% that is not what we want. So the A coming out in the open has been great for both of us.

 

She saw more negatives in our relationship and at times with a magnifying glass.

 

My husband said the same thing. He said he tolerated the marriage as it was because he kept lowering his expectations. He kept saying to himself, "It's not that bad."

 

I think women generally are the relationship watch dogs. We have high expectations for our relationships. And we are senstive to changes. We are emotional. If the relationship isn't right, we aren't feeling right. And we want to do something about it.

 

both of us trying to meet each others' needs is a good start, right ?

 

YES!! Especially since both of you are on the same page about not wanting to be in a "giving up" marriage.

[Dexter Morgan]

Here is how this works. Based on what I have read, husband is in essence fed up with her. She has this laundry list of wants and is constantly pushing to make him take care of it. On the other hand there is no concerted effort to find out what he wants or needs.

 

Thats the thing that always bugged me. WS's acting like they are entitled to force the BS's to do what they want not realizing that they have been hurt down deep inside by the WS's actions. And now the BS has to be the one to bend to the WS's will?? Thats a little f'd up.

 

Maybe the WS needs to worry about the devestation they caused before making any demands of the BS. And really, a WS isn't in a position to demand anything.

[Dexter Morgan]

My God. What a bunch of sexist crap about men opening up and being resistant to therapy.

 

 

Well, I know I wouldn't be too receptive of therapy. I'll tell you why.

 

Alot of people that have been to therapy tell the story of the therapist trying to get the BS to see "their role" in why the WS cheated.

 

Oh, they'll tell you that its not an excuse, but really.....it is. They are saying, "you didn't do this" or "you didn't do that" "and thats why your WS cheated". They'll say it isn't laying blame, but really.....it is.

 

So if I were to go to counseling and someone tried to tell me that my wife (not married now by the way, just saying in general) cheated because of something I did or didn't do, I'd have half a mind to stand up and say FU to both of them.

 

I know people will say they aren't laying blame at the BSs feet when giving the reasons for cheating, but to me thats just a cop out so they can say, "I'm not blaming you, just showing reasons that led up to the cheating".

 

all the same to me.

[taylor]

You are clearly projecting to much of yourself into Tchrgrl's situation. I think Dexter is a little closer to the answer here.

 

Judging by word choice, tone, and content... she isn't really trying to save her marriage. She never really was.

 

Perhaps, UF. We will just have to wait to see how she responds. I will have no difficulty conceding my perspective on this if it is totally misinterpreted.

 

Here is how this works. Based on what I have read, husband is in essence fed up with her. She has this laundry list of wants and is constantly pushing to make him take care of it. On the other hand there is no concerted effort to find out what he wants or needs.

 

I think this is an excellent point you bring up here. I think alot of us women approach our men in the wrong way. We need to learn how to motivate with alienating. It will be interesting to see if the OP "sees" herself doing this.

 

Most guys will open up about relationships and talk without problems. However, you need to not make it PAINFUL! Men don't like therapists, because they are strangers. We don't like spilling our guts to people we don't trust.

 

But sometimes therapy is the only way to get two non-communicating spouses to talk in ways that are constructive. They may need to find effective ways of communicating..somewhere there is a breakdown or a roadblock they can't get passed.

 

So... if your husband isn't talking to you. There is a good chance it's your fault. Figure out where his pain points are and ease over them. Also, be trustworthy of his feelings. Do that and very few men will continue their silence.

 

Some good advice.

[taylor]

My God. What a bunch of sexist crap about men opening up and being resistant to therapy. This is utter nonsense and explains a lot about why WWs cheat. They seem comfortable pigeonholing men as if they are non-communicative drones.

 

Nothing sould be further from the truth, in my expierience. Many of my firends are what some might feel are streotypical jocks. We all excelled in college athletics and none of us has an inability or unwillingness to share our feelings. What do women think we talk about, carbeurators, NASCAR, Da Bears?

 

I read a very good article by a woman who had done lots of research on cheating wives. She found that , on the contrary, it was the women that were the poor communicators, often shutting their husbands down when the guys would start to reveal their feelings.

 

These women wanted to strictly focus on themselves and had little interest in exploring their husbands feelings. She found that the cheating wives were terrible communicators, expecting clairvoyance from their husbands.

 

I guess folks are comfortable stereotyping, just like ythe ridiculous notion that women are not having affairs for primarily sexual reasons.

 

I know so many predatory women, just looking for sex.

 

Actually, my husband learned in therapy that his inability to open up and express his feelings was related to his upbringing.

 

He came from a family of 7 boys. His mother was very domineering and strict. She had to be. What she said, went. They boys did not really have a safe avenue to express feelings, wants, desires.

 

That carried over into adult life. To this day, no one in his family hugs or says, "I love you" to each other.

 

My husband and I attended a marriage program designed to give partners tools for better communication. We wrote on topics that required us to share innermost feelings with each other. All writings were private among the couples.

 

It was unanimous across the board, though..the wives wrote volumes, the men, a sentence or two.

 

And it's been my experience that men do talk more about sports, cars, and their jobs than they do about their relationships and how they feel about the people in their lives. Just a difference in life experience, I guess.

[taylor]

Alot of people that have been to therapy tell the story of the therapist trying to get the BS to see "their role" in why the WS cheated.

 

Oh, they'll tell you that its not an excuse, but really.....it is. They are saying, "you didn't do this" or "you didn't do that" "and thats why your WS cheated". They'll say it isn't laying blame, but really.....it is.

 

So if I were to go to counseling and someone tried to tell me that my wife (not married now by the way, just saying in general) cheated because of something I did or didn't do, I'd have half a mind to stand up and say FU to both of them.

 

I know people will say they aren't laying blame at the BSs feet when giving the reasons for cheating, but to me thats just a cop out so they can say, "I'm not blaming you, just showing reasons that led up to the cheating".

 

all the same to me.

 

If a WH told a therapist he cheated because he didn't get sex from his wife for a year, and wants to turn his marriage around, what would you have the therapist tell him? What would you have the therapist tell his wife?

 

If a WH told a therapist he cheated because his wife would give him the silent treatment for 3 and 4 months at a time for stupid reasons, but he still wanted to save his marriage, what would you have the therapist tell him? What would you have the therapist tell his wife?

 

What could the therapist possibly tell each of these couples without the wife saying, "FU. Don't blame me for your cheating. Don't tell me what I should have or shouldn't have done."

 

How does the MC address the problems in the marriage without ticking one of them off?

[Owl]

What do you do when you want to save your marriage but your spouse appears oblivious?

 

Simple...set some clear, concise boundaries about what YOU will accept in the marriage.

 

Communicate those boundaries, and the consequences, clearly to your spouse.

 

And then enforce them if your spouse refuses to acknowledge them or to work with you in fixing the marriage.

 

Start small...example:

 

Boundary: I will no longer clean up after a spouse who refuses to clean up after themselves. Consequence: If they refuse to start cleaning up after themselves, start cleaning up only after yourself. If they're mess begins to infringe on your, start moving their messes into places that are specifically theirs, like their computer room, their chair, etc...

 

By starting out with enforcing the smaller boundaries, you demonstrate your willingness to enforce the bigger ones as they are communicated.

 

At the end of the day...you decide if your husband's lack of desire to change is a "deal breaker" or not. If it is...then end the marriage if he refuses to change. If it's not...then there's no reason to attempt to make a boundary out of it...learn to live with it.

[taylor]

Simple...set some clear, concise boundaries about what YOU will accept in the marriage.

 

Communicate those boundaries, and the consequences, clearly to your spouse.

 

And then enforce them if your spouse refuses to acknowledge them or to work with you in fixing the marriage.

 

At the end of the day...you decide if your husband's lack of desire to change is a "deal breaker" or not. If it is...then end the marriage if he refuses to change. If it's not...then there's no reason to attempt to make a boundary out of it...learn to live with it.

 

But I wonder now if this isn't what UF describes as the "laundry list" wives give their husbands, and the consequences come off as ultimatums that tick the husbands off.

 

Reggie suggests women can be poor communicators when it comes to letting their husbands know what they want.

 

I do agree it's a good thing to be able to motivate without alienating.

 

But how do you know for sure what is behind the husband's lack of response. Is it that the wife alienated him with a list of demands or that he truly has no desire to fix the problems in the marriage.

 

What about tchrgrl? Did she alienate her husband or does he have a true lack of desire to fix the marriage?

 

Would it be out of line for her to insist on MC with divorce as the consequence..or is that asking too much?

[65tr6]

Reggie suggests women can be poor communicators when it comes to letting their husbands know what they want.?

true in my case.

 

but be careful here...Even if they communicate, husbands may not react the way they should. Like in your case, right ? I am fairly certain, I would have done the same if my wife had said our marriage was in trouble prior to the affair.

 

If a marriage is heading south, both spouses need some kind of electric shock that will jolt them back to reality before they realize it is too late.

Then you understand how petty other things can be. Stupid little fights, name calling, put downs etc. I thought after the d-day, if i can treat folks at work with respect, why can i not do the same at home ? All of sudden it did not seem that hard.

 

If you dont have that mutual respect and/or love, total honesty, it is difficult to move forward. In my opinion lists, boundaries everything follows after that. And that realization has to come from both spouses.

 

Most of us now know Marriage is work, constant work.

 

For some of us, it takes an A to understand this. But from what i read, it takes couple of divorces before people realize that they are part of the problem!.

[Reggie]

On the suprficiality of topics of conversation, I think men get a bad rap. Women are not all focused on deep topics. I've been privy to many converations by women. The topics are different, but the depth is not.

 

My XWW had disdain for therapy and would never open up. Many counselors are men, so what draws them to that profession?

 

I just think it is about time people stop romanticizing women's affairs and see them for what they are, essentially the same as men's. It's about sex for some, emotions, for other and a mix for most.

 

Look at how society views domestic violence, as if it is a mainly male thing. Studies show it is not.

 

Look at how women pedophiles are treated much more leniently, in general.

 

Many women seem to devalue their husbands, just like men do their wives.

 

The researcher whose work I read related an intersting story demonstrating how many women view thier husbands opening up.

 

At a lecture about some issue of interest to some women, the male lecture was desseminating some info on how women viewed the topic. During the question and answer session, a woman raised her hand and told the lecturer how impressed she was that he had been so forthcoming on his views and how she wished her husband was as open.

 

The stunned lecturer told her he had said nothing about his views and was merely giving info on his research. Turns out the woman assumed that , since he was mirrorin her view, he held that view.

 

The reearcher concluded that this was a common dynamic in male/female communication with the wife commandeering the conversation and only listening to feelings that mirrored her own. The man was given very clear cues that the wife had no interest in hearing his feelings.

 

 

Soon, the men learned that it was futile and not only would their views be ignored, but there would be reprisals, sometimes, for taking a different view. So, eventually, they shut down.

 

I think many women would be surprised about what guys discuss. Look at the publications geared toward women. They are every bit as full of superficial topics as "Chicks and Ammo Magazine".

[Owl]

Here's the thing...you're right, most people WILL resent that "laundry list".

 

But if they wanna stay married, they need to "meet the requirements".

 

If you don't take a stand, then you can expect that things are going to stay exactly as they are.

 

When you communicate that "laundry list", the biggest thing that needs to go along with it is just how important it is to you that it is enforced.

 

That's a common problem in marriages...a spouse may know that their actions are making their spouse unhappy...but the depth of that unhappiness isn't clearly communicated, until they cheat or leave.

 

If you truly cannot stand your marriage the way it is...tell your H that, and tell him exactly what needs to change...and make sure he understands just what the potential repercussions of NOT changing are going to be.

[Reggie]

Here's the thing...you're right, most people WILL resent that "laundry list".

 

But if they wanna stay married, they need to "meet the requirements".

 

If you don't take a stand, then you can expect that things are going to stay exactly as they are.

 

When you communicate that "laundry list", the biggest thing that needs to go along with it is just how important it is to you that it is enforced.

 

That's a common problem in marriages...a spouse may know that their actions are making their spouse unhappy...but the depth of that unhappiness isn't clearly communicated, until they cheat or leave.

 

If you truly cannot stand your marriage the way it is...tell your H that, and tell him exactly what needs to change...and make sure he understands just what the potential repercussions of NOT changing are going to be.

 

I agree with this. Seems there is an incredible expectation of clairvoyance, the old "if you have to ask, I am not willing to tell you thing". It leads to all types of problems and resentments.

[taylor]

On the suprficiality of topics of conversation, I think men get a bad rap. Women are not all focused on deep topics. I've been privy to many converations by women. The topics are different, but the depth is not.

 

Not saying men are superficial, Reggie. Just saying that men do not get into all the relationship stuff and the emotional stuff that women like to talk about.

 

An example. A couple gets engaged. The man tells his buddy:

 

Man: I got engaged.

Buddy: Hey, congratulations, man. So when's the big day?

Man: Next year sometime.

Buddy: So how much did the ring set you back?

Man: A few grand.

Buddy: Guess you'll be doing some overtime to pay for that now won't you?

Man: Yeah. (They both have a good laugh)

 

 

Same example. Woman tells her girlfriend she just got engaged.

 

Woman: I got engaged.

Friend: You did. Let me see the ring. Oh, it's beautiful. So how did he propose.

Woman: (Big explanation with lots of details)

Friend: Oh, that sounds so romantic. You're so lucky to have a guy like him. So when is the big day?

Woman: (Big explanation of when, where, why, how)

Friend: I'm so excited for you. You look so happy.

Woman: I am. I cried when he gave me the ring. I am so excited to get married. He's the best. I love him so much.

Friend: I can see that. You are just beaming from ear to ear. (hugs)

 

Men focus many of their conversations around the act of doing something. Women focus on the journey of emotion, rather than the act itself.

 

It's not that one is more superficial than the other. Just that the focus is different.

[Dexter Morgan]

If a WH told a therapist he cheated because he didn't get sex from his wife for a year, and wants to turn his marriage around, what would you have the therapist tell him?

 

I don't know what I'd have the therapist say, but I know what I'd like to say to him. boo-freakin' hoo.

 

Either he turns the marriage around, or he gets a divorce....not go off and cheat. He talks to his wife. If his wife doesn't want sex, then he can choose to end the marriage if its that important to him.

 

 

What would you have the therapist tell his wife?

 

I'd ask why she doesn't want to have sex with him. I wouldn't tell her, "he cheated because you don't have sex with him".

 

 

 

If a WH told a therapist he cheated because his wife would give him the silent treatment for 3 and 4 months at a time for stupid reasons, but he still wanted to save his marriage, what would you have the therapist tell him? What would you have the therapist tell his wife?

 

What could the therapist possibly tell each of these couples without the wife saying, "FU. Don't blame me for your cheating. Don't tell me what I should have or shouldn't have done."

 

Nothing, thats why I think therapy is a crock of *****. Because its going to boil down to the therapist looking like they are placing blame.

 

 

How does the MC address the problems in the marriage without ticking one of them off?

 

By suggesting what they can do to work on the marriage and leave cheating out of it perhaps. But if a therapist tries to point out that certain actions led to the cheating, then that, to me, is placing blame.

[Reggie]

Taylor, I beleive you have a terrible misconception of how man are. In a previous post, you said men have a terrible time opening up and do not want to look at themselves.

But, look at all the authors,poets, and philosophers that are men.

 

You are looking at caricatures of men, the butt slapping, have a beer , Al Bundy thing seen portayed in films etc. It's baloney. I've had many intimate conversation with my buddies and I do not think I am the exception.

 

I don't understand the affinity for going with stereotypes. I kniow many women who are invested in things like the Brad/Angelina story or crap like that. These are people you consider invested in opening up and communicating on an intimate level?

[tchrgrl]

I have not checked out of my marriage and my husband is not angry -he is indifferent. I don't find divorce to be an option as he is a good father and it would be unfair to my children to not be with their father on a daily basis. Financially it would be a disaster for all involved. My parents divorced when I was young and I would have rather them stay together for the "sake of the children" than create the insecure adult I am today. My husband and I get along well but there is no real emotional connection.

My children are happy and so I feel it is my obligation as their mother to forgo that emotional connection to keep their lives on track. I guess I have become indifferent as MC does not appeal to me at this time. After being in therapy at different points in my life, there is little left to say. I do blame my husband and will not back down on that. I am incredibly articulate in my needs/wants and expectations of what I want in my marriage. Like I said, my husband never takes it seriously. Maybe telling him about the affair would wake him up but I am not willing to go that route at this point. I am in the middle of the night replying to this as I can't sleep. MM made contact tonight via text and my head is very confused. I did not make contact back....this board actually helps. I would have felt terribly weak/guilty telling you all that I had broken my NC streak! Deep down I was thrilled to know he still thinks of me but I focused on all the terrible things he has done to me and I tried to imagine my children finding out. This kept me from making the wrong decision yet again. I'm sure people are wondering why if my parents divorced and I was so destroyed by it, why would I put my own children at risk? I ask myself that question everyday and I don't have a good answer. I think I have been lonely my entire life and am always looking for that connection with someone else.