If you could get away with cheating, would you do it?

[boldjack]

James, what I was trying to point out was I cheated because I chose to and stopped because I chose to. My looks haven't changed, my looks didn't make me cheat. If you want to cheat there will always be someone to oblige you whatever you look like. I am not less moral or less honorable because I look better. That's being elitest.

[Mr. Lucky]

No. Some men cheat because they have healthy egos and an honest sense of self-value.

Couldn't disagree more. People that cheat are more likely to have low self-esteem based on the fact that they need validation from someone other than their spouse. Partners with "healthy egos and an honest sense of self-value" are more likely to see their options within the context of their committed relationship. If I'm a secure and well-grounded individual, I'm less likely to jump into someone's else's bed at the first sign of trouble in mine...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Trimmer]

Did you have the temptation to? Or none whatsoever?

Depends on how you define "temptation..." When I was married, I would see other women who I would find sexually attractive, so if you call that "temptation" then yes, but I was never "tempted" to cheat.

 

And before our local expert on men (who is a woman) chimes in with all of her conditions, I was tested in her exact scenario: I was on a business trip, by myself, in a city I had never been in and would never be in again, with nobody who knew me anywhere near, and I was unambiguously hit on by someone asking me to have a drink with her.

 

I think it is very complicated. I don't agree with it at all - but yet something in me seems to see some sort of reason within it....weird I know! But I think if you haven't done it, then you can't really explain the why's and wherefores of the emotions and thoughts (or lack thereof) that goes into the process of cheating.

 

I once heard or read (I forgot) that 99.9% of men would cheat, given the opportunity and knowing they would NEVER get caught..

 

I'm convinced that MOST men would (99.9999999%).

 

Those who say they would NEVER cheat, given the opportunity and would NEVER get caught.. are BS'ing.. IMO.

Hmmm - BS'ing any more than someone who quotes a 99.9% statistic that they "once heard or read (I forgot)"? I think that anyone who quotes such a fantastic statistic, claiming that it comes from somewhere, and can't back it up, is BS'ing.

 

At least you're being honest... I admire that.

 

It's easy for a young guy (who's never been married yet) to say they would never ever cheat.. just wait..

 

It's also easy for a young MM (who is still in the 'honeymoon' phase) to say they will never ever cheat.. just wait..

 

It's also easy for some men to say they would never ever cheat.. cause they know very well.. they just wouldn't get anyone.. because they are either too fat, plain too 'gross' looking... or simply can't get an erection (that would be embarassing...)

So once again, in Lizzie's world, if you don't agree with her, you are either dishonest with yourself, young and inexperienced, newly married and in the honeymoon phase, or fat, gross and unable to sustain an erection. Fatuous reasoning. I won't even call it "logic" because it contains none.

 

And speaking of logic: please don't be fooled that her assertion that you can never say never, because you don't know (which I'll admit to be objectively true) proves or supports her assertion that 99.9999999% of men would. Those are not synonymous statements, and the relative truth of the one does not prove, or even support, the other one.

 

So guys who answer no are not "being honest?"

 

Personally, I don't think anyone who says no to this question is being dishonest. But I think many of those that say they couldn't (I said many...not all, Mr. Lucky) are being naive for reasons that Lizzie said, and because they really have not discovered the truths about themselves.

But again, like Lizzie's assertion that "you must be fat, ugly, gross, or limp-dicked..." to disagree with her, this infantilizes and disenfranchises the entire group of men who disagree with you from the discussion. Don't agree? There, there, of course not, you are just naive, you don't understand yet, and how do I know that? Because you can never say never, so if you do, then you are obviously naive...

 

When someone disagrees, then he must be young and inexperienced and naive. Oh, not that? Then he must be in the honeymoon phase. Oh, not that? Well, then he's ugly, gross, and can't keep it up. There, that covers everyone.

 

My fundamental problem is in looking at cheating as being "caused" by something outside. Now, I'm the first to agree that problems in a relationship are often precursors to cheating, and that a healthy, smooth relationship often results in "not cheating."

 

However, I think that cheating is caused by a personal character flaw. It's not about a penis and a vagina, it's about the ability to promise something and stick to it (and I don't mean "love you forever", but "I won't f**k anyone else while we're together...")

 

I'm not even against serial monogamy, or having multiple partners at once - I'm against lying to a partner about it. I'm against being in an exclusive relationship and then pursuing one somewhere else because that's a lie. It's not the genitals, it's the lies.

 

And here's the thing: that's not who I am. I am honest enough to admit that I look at women and wonder what it would be like to have sex with them - there, honest enough for you? (And also honest enough to know that most of them probably wouldn't want to have sex with me -there, Lizzie, honest enough for you?) But what I do know about myself is that I couldn't lie about that kind of thing in a relationship. Not just because I don't want to get caught, but that's the person that I am.

 

So then this really reframes the question, then doesn't it? James, you question whether someone who says "I wouldn't" is being naive. I maintain that I am being quite honest with myself, because while, in the heat of the moment, some would be asking themselves, "How might this hurt my spouse..." and looking to their relationship to prevent them from straying any further (leaving open, incidentally, the possibility of blaming cheating on relationship problems...), I know myself, and I'm honest enough with myself to know that yeah, it sure would feel good to put my penis into her vagina, but I'm not going to because that doesn't match my clear vision of who I am.

 

So call me naive, fat, gross, ugly, or all of the above, but I've been tested. Nobody would ever have known. It was a HUGE ego boost. I could have convinced myself, at the start, that it was "just" a drink - that that was all she was asking. And yes, she was very attractive - now that I'm single again, I wouldn't let that opportunity slip by again. All the stars were in alignment, but almost by reflex, I smiled, looked down, and giggled and pretended like I didn't "get" her offer. It happened so quickly, and I demurred so automatically that I had to process later how and why it happened.

 

I didn't think, "maybe could I? Could I get away with it?" I did it because my vision of who I was was clear - I was married, and that was not something I would do as a married person.

 

So is that naivete, or is it having a clear, confident view of oneself, and being guided - almost automatically - by a strong self-image? I have my opinion, but I suppose I can't say, for the other 99.9999999% of men out there. Apparently, Lizzie speaks for them.

[pelicanpreacher]

Lizzie, as I've said before...I think your viewpoint and 'experience' are biased.

 

Given your "second profession"...I can easily see that you'd MEET a large number of men who are already 'primed' to cheat...and that you would be in your best interests to believe that such a large number of men would be willing to cheat (potentially with you, of course).

 

If you live in a submarine and that was your primary reference point, you'd be convinced that 99% of people lived under water.

 

Owl to the rescue!

 

James, "would" and "could" are two very different things. Your admission that you could is simply an acknowledgement of that potential in you. Stating that, having recognised that potential, you would then actively choose to act on it, is something else entirely, and contradicts the latter half of your post where you speak of not putting yourself in positions where you might feel vulnerable to that temptation. That suggests - quite strongly - that while you know you COULD, in fact you WOULDN'T.

 

Not because you're an angel or some superhero, but because you're recognising your agency and choosing to act in a way that is more consistent with your values - while acknowledging how easy it would be to choose the other route.

 

I think that's the difference between fearlessness and courage.

 

That analogy went right over my head!

 

 

I don't doubt this at all. And when it is said that most men would cheat if in the wrong place at the "right" time, we don't mean that they would always cheat when the opportunity is there. Personally, I have been many situations with an opportunity to cheat, but the desire has not been there.

 

The question for all of us is...when both desire and opportunity are there, can we say for certain we will not cheat? And I know myself enough to say no. So my goal is to prevent such a situation.

 

As for mentioning wife and family, I am always amazed at how I just happen to mention my wife. I can say that many times it just comes an automatic response. When my wife's name is mentioned, the atmosphere usually changes, and the opportunity "slips away." I can honestly say that one occasion when both were there, the mention of my wife by mean killed the opportunity...thankfully.

 

I firmly believe it is in every guy. It is just that some/many guys are certain that commitment and rational thinking rule over their emotions and "physical lust."

 

In your mind, will there ever be a level of emotional maturity that you achieve in your lifetime that ever insures that, no matter the emotional state of your self esteem, you rise above the selfish inclination to indulge your desires to satisfy physical lust at the expense of your S/O?!! If not, then having to proclaim your wife's name in the face of temptation any time it rears it head is no more than a crutch preventing you from ever standing on your own two feet as a man for you shall never rise above the hormonal challenges faced as a boy when you were 16 years old. I can say for myself that at this time and age, unless I have been rendered totally mentally incapacitated, there will never be a time where opportunity meets desire in the face of temptation to overrule my thinking fomenting the betrayal of someone I love and respect. JMO!

[OWoman]

Couldn't disagree more. People that cheat are more likely to have low self-esteem based on the fact that they need validation from someone other than their spouse.

 

This sounds like a circular argument - "cheaters" are more likely to have low self-esteem because people with solid self-esteem don't need to "cheat".

 

I'm not entirely sure anyone NEEDS to "cheat" - it's a choice people make for different reasons under different circumstances - and while some people may seek validation through an A, others are in it for the thrill, the danger, the distraction, the pleasure, the indulgence, the hot sex... whatever.

 

I've had As with guys who were in every way the ultimate sorted, happy, balanced, mature grounded guy - yet by your definition their self-esteem could not have been healthy simply because they had an A. Similarly, I've seen many people on this forum accuse ALL OWs of having low self-esteen simply because they are / were OWs - which would certainly crack up anyone who knows me IRL!

[pelicanpreacher]

 

Ahm...cheating and terminating a life????? that's hardly a fair comparison. But yes, I understand what you are trying to say.

 

Come on DM, come on...You of all people should be keenly aware of just how fair that comparison is for you know through experience the pain of a dying soul. Pain is pain and death is death and both come in all shapes and forms.

[Woggle]

No because I love my wife more than that and quite frankly this board has made be afraid of getting involved with an OW.

[grogster]

These hypotheticals always open up a broad diversity of opinions. There's the cheating is always a matter of choice crowd, the cheater has low self-esteem crowd and the everybody (at least the men)would cheat if they could crowd. There are probably more factions but my eyes start to glaze over:narcissist, sociopath, etc.

 

As a former cheater, I agree with JamesM's more nuanced formulation. Cheating becomes more likely as opportunity and desire converge. In my case, my career was going gangbusters, I loved my wife and I was a great, involved dad. I had no self-esteem issues of which I was aware. Can one have unconconscious low self-esteem? I doubt it.

 

Nevertheless, this very attractive married woman at work began coming on to me after we became the best of friends. I was flattered, one night after drinks we had tremendous sex and our affair was off to the races. She was sexually and emotionally bored with her husband, and my wife was rarely home. But I thought I was happily married. I was not in the market.

 

Opportunity and desire converged, and the long downward spiral began. Was it a "choice" on my part? You bet. But quite often choices aren't quite as "free" as one would expect. Too often, the free choice mantra is pushed by those with more need to blame than understand.

 

The lesson: don't make another man's wife your best friend at work. The line between friends and lovers becomes blurred.

 

In response to the original question, I would not have an affair even if my wife remained blind to it. Affairs strip the paint off marriages and corrode the marital bonds. That happens when your spouse is emotionally and sexually preempted by another. The marital ties no longer bind.

[Geishawhelk]

No because I love my wife more than that and quite frankly this board has made be afraid of getting involved with an OW.

 

Cool.

It's good to know that all this butt-chewing has had some good effect.

[Mr. Lucky]

This sounds like a circular argument - "cheaters" are more likely to have low self-esteem because people with solid self-esteem don't need to "cheat".

You know OWoman, we all have faults. None of us is perfect, we are all human and fallible. It is hypocrital for someone who is say, cheating on their taxes to come on here and label cheaters as moral failures. We all have our issues.

 

But none of that changes the fact that cheating on your marriage is wrong. Self-steem aside, cheating is a manifestation of weakness. And I stand by my statement that people with "solid self-esteem" tend to seek other solutions to problems in their marriages (including ending the marriage) rather than cheating...

 

Mr. Lucky

[desertmoon]

Come on DM, come on...You of all people should be keenly aware of just how fair that comparison is for you know through experience the pain of a dying soul. Pain is pain and death is death and both come in all shapes and forms.

 

 

Touche!

 

Hi pelicanpreacher!!!!

 

I wasn't a tiny speck of living blob(no disrespect intended) that did not have the faculties to make a decision to keep something alive or choose death. True, mine was a reaction to some decision two other people have made without my consent, still..

[desertmoon]

But none of that changes the fact that cheating on your marriage is wrong. Self-steem aside, cheating is a manifestation of weakness. And I stand by my statement that people with "solid self-esteem" tend to seek other solutions to problems in their marriages (including ending the marriage)...

 

You are certainly welcome to hold those tenets as true. I am pretty sure it makes you feel better to think of yourself as the man who did everything but cheat to save your marriage instead of entertaining the thoughts of you not having the courage nor the fearlessness to get out of your marriage when it was not satisfying to you. You have a constant need to validate yourself that you are a good man, a man with a strong sense of self, high self-esteem, decent, moral, and oh, don't forget-desirable, capable of maintaining a marriage and making it last (the first divorce was HER fault), brave...and yet...me thinks, something is not all right at home....

[OWoman]

Self-steem aside, cheating is a manifestation of weakness. And I stand by my statement that people with "solid self-esteem" tend to seek other solutions to problems in their marriages (including ending the marriage) rather than cheating...

 

That assumes there was something wrong with the M before the "cheating". Most of the MMs I've been involved with would have said they had great Ms, no problems - they weren't looking for an A and had certainly never had one before. It wasn't something they'd considered until they were faced with the opportunity, and - for whatever reasons - chose to take it.

 

Should they - at that point - have ended a M that they, and their W, considered good? Some of them did subsequently leave their Ms, but others stayed after I ended the A. AFAIK those ones are still together. Maybe the MMs are wracked with guilt and remorse, maybe they're not, IDK, but to presume that there are / were problems in the M that led to the A is I think a generalisation that the evidence doesn't support.

[KismetGirl]

I think it's unfair to say that about all men.

 

I know a fair amount of good men, who also happen to be attractive who would NEVER make that choice. One of my old coworkers had a million chances to cheat, women always throwing themselves at him, but all he could talk about was his wife and 2 daughters. He'd never have even had the TIME to cheat considering the hours we worked. And always informed everyone of his wife, insisted on introducing her to everyone and gushes about her all the time. He is so devoted and I know that even if it was offered, he's just not that kind of guy.

 

Also, a few of my exes never would have cheated, I even offered an open relationship to one and he couldn't bear the thought.

 

Also, my current bf is damn fine and there are always girls hitting on him. He makes a point to casually show his ring finger where he wears a wedding band and then talks about me. Some guys, attractive or not, will never take that step, it's just not "in them".

 

Same as some women, no matter HOW unwanted the pregnancy or what dire position they are in, would NEVER consider an abortion. People are all different.

 

Having an abortion and slipping up one time and sleeping with someone are two different things.

 

Also, don't be so sure about what people seem to be on the outside. My MM appears to be the happy family man, talks about his family constantly and Im sure not one person that knows him would even fathom he would cheat on his wife. EVER. FYI....working long hours is one of the best excuses a MM or MW can have for fitting in an affair.

 

Hopefully your boyfriend is of the sort that can resist. But to say that that other guy you mentioned doesn't cheat on his wife just because he talks about his family alot is a little naive.

[Mr. Lucky]

You are certainly welcome to hold those tenets as true.

 

Which of the tenets do you disagree with, desertmoon?

 

That cheating on your marriage is wrong?

 

That cheating is a manifestation of weakness?

 

That well-grounded individuals tend to look for other solutions to issues in their marriage rather than cheating?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Lizzie60]

Hopefully your boyfriend is of the sort that can resist. But to say that that other guy you mentioned doesn't cheat on his wife just because he talks about his family alot is a little naive.

 

Exactly.. I met a guy once.. it didn't go anywhere.. he wasn't quite my type.. anyway... he was the perfect husband, father, friend.. professional... NO ONE would ever EVER have thought he was looking for an A.

 

In his 12 years of marriage (I think it was about 10-12) he said he had only one A.. many years ago.. that only lasted a few months... but he wanted to 'taste' it again.. but he had to be ABSOLUTELY sure no one would ever find out. He wanted to keep his PERFECT side.

[desertmoon]

Which of the tenets do you disagree with, desertmoon?

 

That cheating on your marriage is wrong?

 

That cheating is a manifestation of weakness?

 

That well-grounded individuals tend to look for other solutions to issues in their marriage rather than cheating?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I will let you wonder about that .

[Mr. Lucky]

he was the perfect husband

In his 12 years of marriage (I think it was about 10-12) he said he had only one A..

Maybe we should downgrade his husband status to "almost" perfect ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Woggle]

I don't know about other men but I seriously have no desire to cheat. The only reason I would even consider another woman is to upgrade and I seriously doubt I will ever find a better catch than my wife. I look at the type of women that usually go for married men and people think I would risk losing for that? The risks far outweigh the benefits of cheating in my case.

[JamesM]

However, I think that cheating is caused by a personal character flaw. It's not about a penis and a vagina, it's about the ability to promise something and stick to it (and I don't mean "love you forever", but "I won't f**k anyone else while we're together...")

 

I am with you for almost all that you said, but I cannot say it is a "character flaw." Maybe it is me, but then this somehow gives an excuse for cheating...kinda like, "The devil made me do it" philosophy.

 

No, it is a responsible choice which while it may be influenced by the current situation and marriage, it is also one that we do make based on inner resolve.

 

To say that "he is a cheater, there fore he has a character flaw and will always be a cheater" is fallacious. The reverse cannot be said either IMO. Just because someone has been tested and passed does not mean he or she will be able to pass the next test. Passing one test or even ten tests does not mean someone doesn't have the "character flaw" and can rest easy.

 

Tomorrow is yet another day.

 

So then this really reframes the question, then doesn't it? James, you question whether someone who says "I wouldn't" is being naive. I maintain that I am being quite honest with myself, because while, in the heat of the moment, some would be asking themselves, "How might this hurt my spouse..." and looking to their relationship to prevent them from straying any further (leaving open, incidentally, the possibility of blaming cheating on relationship problems...), I know myself, and I'm honest enough with myself to know that yeah, it sure would feel good to put my penis into her vagina, but I'm not going to because that doesn't match my clear vision of who I am.

 

And I admire your for that. As I sit here and as I look back over many years of life, I feel confidant that I can pass any test thrown at me, too. However, I also know from experience that life changes, things change, and I change.

 

Every test is a new test and requires a new resolve. My guess is that each test gets easier or harder....depending on many factors.

 

In your mind, will there ever be a level of emotional maturity that you achieve in your lifetime that ever insures that, no matter the emotional state of your self esteem, you rise above the selfish inclination to indulge your desires to satisfy physical lust at the expense of your S/O?!!

 

No.

 

If not, then having to proclaim your wife's name in the face of temptation any time it rears it head is no more than a crutch preventing you from ever standing on your own two feet as a man for you shall never rise above the hormonal challenges faced as a boy when you were 16 years old.

 

You read me wrong.

 

First, I rarely have situations where I feel that there is a temptation that is rearing its head.

 

Second, while I am amused that you think I throw my wife's name around like a talisman to protect me, it is simply not the case. I only mentioned that as one way that I have used to disarm a situation that seems to be developing. And I have noticed many women using a similar method (and no, not always with me) when they mention family or husband. Also, women like to ask about family and wives, too.

 

Third, the assumption that someone can arise above temptation simply because he or she is "mature" is fallacious. This means that those who are 16 (as per your example) cannot handle temptation. Even my ten year old has been able to say no to something he felt tempted to steal. It also means that anyone who has yielded to temptation is simply not mature enough. As if there will be some day that we reach a level of maturity which enables us to handle all that life throws at us.

 

While I think I know what you are saying, I cannot agree with it. My wife's name is not used like some "truth sword" (go read some fantasy ) which makes everyone see who they are and what they are doing. It is not a crutch.

 

I hope never to feel confidant enough to say that I can simply do what I want and put myself into any situation because I am mature enough to handle any temptation.

 

Personally, I think it takes maturity to recognize what weaknesses we have, and then it takes maturity and strength to proactively prevent them from getting the upper hand.

 

I can say for myself that at this time and age, unless I have been rendered totally mentally incapacitated, there will never be a time where opportunity meets desire in the face of temptation to overrule my thinking fomenting the betrayal of someone I love and respect. JMO!

 

And the highlighted phrase is the key. As I sit here with my cup of coffee with my heart overflowing with love admiration for my wife and family, I have no problem saying the same thing. I also know that in the past when such temptations have hit me, I have said no.

 

But I can sit here and say that I can handle any pain or illness that strikes me as well. Why? Because I have strength and vigor. I have just completed a full workout and feel energized (so why the coffee...speaking of crutches. ) Yet I know full well that this can all change.

 

So it is with the temptation of cheating. I believe that many will hold true to their resolve, and I think that the ones who understand what they would do in such a situation are prepared for another one. And I have ways that I can disarm the moment when cheating seems attractive.

 

BUT...the moment of cheating does not only have a strong attraction when we have much love and respect for our wives or family. It doesn't just get us at a moment when we are strong emotionally. It will get us at those times when we doubt our love for our partner. It will get us when we least expect it. It is at those times that the automatic "crutch" will be helpful.

 

Call me weak and pessimistic. Call me immature. Call me not devoted enough to my wife. Tell me I cannot stand on my own two feet. Not a problem.

 

BUT...if I appear to be unprepared for a moment when my emotions are weak and my marriage is faltering, then call me stupid for I will listen to that admonition. In the US Army, they send people to boot camp and put them in all sorts of situations. They deprive the soldiers of food, sleep and water. THEN they put them in simulated combat tests. For they know that people don't falter when the times are easy. It is when the going gets tough that the tough get going.

 

So it is with marriage and commitment. Preparation is the key. And after almost nineteen years of marriage to my best friend and only real love, I think some of my preparation is actually working.

[Dexter Morgan]

Good point.

 

When it's easy for him to attract women... he will cheat.. no doubt.

 

Oh here we have a subtle little stab at guys that can keep it in their pants. Saying that we must not be able to attract women. I guess those women that wanted to know if I wanted to have dinner with them on my business trips, that I turned down, weren't attracted....ho humm.

[Dexter Morgan]

I think this is true. A man who does not think of himself highly is less likely to cheat--this is a man who is just grateful some woman married him and is afraid to take the risk because he probably does not think another woman would be crazy enough to marry him.

 

So basically a man, like me, who has never cheated, and never will doesn't do so because we have low self-esteem? We are grateful to be with anyone?

 

i don't think so. I'm not grateful whether i have anyone or not. If I am with someone and committed, I give that person all the respect they'd want in return. And if I care about them, I wouldn't stoop so low as to cheat.

 

Your view is highly offensive.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'd never cheat in a commited relationship- never, ever.

I'm 38 and I never have cheated.

 

Well, by the words of 2 people in this thread, that means you aren't attractive enough to have men falling at your feet from one person, and you have a low opinion of your ability to attract men, therefore you should be grateful you have anyone. so by their logic, you won't cheat because you see yourself lucky to even have anyone.

[Dexter Morgan]

You are certainly welcome to hold those tenets as true. I am pretty sure it makes you feel better to think of yourself as the man who did everything but cheat to save your marriage instead of entertaining the thoughts of you not having the courage nor the fearlessness to get out of your marriage when it was not satisfying to you. You have a constant need to validate yourself that you are a good man, a man with a strong sense of self, high self-esteem, decent, moral, and oh, don't forget-desirable, capable of maintaining a marriage and making it last (the first divorce was HER fault), brave...and yet...me thinks, something is not all right at home....

 

yet another slam of a good man that doesn't cheat.

[Nikki Sahagin]

I really don't think it comes down to whether you are male or female. Both genders feel DESIRE.