movingonandon Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 ^^^ Sorry, your theory crumbles easily --> you don't see many men bitching that their girlfriends won't marry them, but the opposite is classic . What I do see though is men bitching about is that they get less and less sex after they get married . If so, why bother with marriage, given that good girlfriends already cook and are emotionally supportive, hmm? Let's face it - the only thing that women really bring into marriage (relative to dating/co-habitaiton), is kids, and that's why age is an important variable in that. (not to mention that you don't even have to be married for kids, it's just better for them). Basically, it boils down to deciding whether wanting to have and properly raise kids justifies the huge financial and emotional gamble of marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
IrishCarBomb Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Such as....? Boobs, shiny hair, and a skilled tongue. Link to post Share on other sites
PinkKittyKat Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well, that's great - I'm happy to hear, and see that. So why didn't you marry any of those great guys, huh? The problem is - as I have concluded based on everyday experiences and reading here - is that many girls do have this attitude to a much greater extent in their 20s. Then, a decade later all of a suddedn many/some ger the "marriage itch" and the priorities shift dramatically. All of a sudden a guy with no checking account doesn't cut it quite as easily. This transition - when it happens - IMO is at the core of much bitterness from men, simply because who wants to satisfy changing priorities, rather than be valued in a relationship for who he is, hmm? There is no bigger turn off than a woman who wants to get married because "it's time". I hope this becomes less and less common. I love marriage, as long as it's for the right reasons. Well it certainly wasn't because they weren't ATTRACTIVE. They all were. Since that's what this thread is about. What are people initially "attracted to". Of course there were other problems. Did you expect me to say, "Hey honey, you're just not successful enough for me, I need someone with prospects!" because I don't give 2 poo poos about that. Incidentally, my bf I'm planning a wedding with is so far in debt that I've been supporting him while I collect EI. The job market is crap right now and all my old coworkers are out of work from layoffs. But even on financial assistance, my bf owes so much money to his loans and credit cards that he ends up bringing home way less than my employment insurance gives me. I wuvs him....... It helps that he does all the laundry/dishes/cleaning/cooking... He feels guilty for not bringing home more money.... but I don't mind. Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 ... quality is not about looks and money, there are so many other traits that most find far more important than these like kindness, gentleness, love, laughter. Absolutely, and men will seek the mate that offers the most of what they value as well. No matter what it is women are looking for, the other women who have more of what men are looking for will get a better pool to choose from than the women who have less of what men are looking for. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 ^^^ Sorry, your theory crumbles easily --> you don't see many men bitching that their girlfriends won't marry them, but the opposite is classic . I am not sure what point you are trying to make please explain!?!? What I do see though is men bitching about is that they get less and less sex after they get married . If so, why bother with marriage, given that good girlfriends already cook and are emotionally supportive, hmm? EXACTLY this is why I think women give TOO MUCH TOO SOON lessening the worth of a woman by giving a man everything she can offer him before he has made any sort of solid commitment to her. All these women with modern takes one "a woman should pay on a first date" "a woman should ask a man out when she feels like it" "a woman should have no strings attached sex right away" "a woman should live with a man pretty much right off the bat and cook and clean and cater to him in every single way before he is even sold on committing to her in any real way" is ALL COMPLETELY counterproductive to women and I will NEVER EVER support that kind of silly modernism . We stand to lose the less we make a man work for us, and I will NEVER EVER lower my standards to become a "modern woman" in that respect. It works for me great to know that a man is on the same page as me because he knows there is potential for me to give him more, rather than giving him everything I have and get only hald in return. I know my value as a woman. I wish more women did, for their own sake. This is why I won't pay for early dates or go dutch, and I WILL walk away from a man who wants that right off the bat even if he is GREAT. What I do see though is men bitching about is that they get less and less sex after they get married . If so, why bother with marriage, given that good girlfriends already cook and are emotionally supportive, hmm? If you really think that men get nothing out of being married then marriage should NOT be for you. I on the other hand get nothing out of playing wife to a man when I don't have that level of commitment with him, so I let him win me over, time and time again and that way he will not get comfortable thinking "I have it all now why do I need to commit more of myself to her?" Until I do settled down for good I refuse to do more than I feel comfortable doing. Link to post Share on other sites
blondesmiler Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Absolutely, and men will seek the mate that offers the most of what they value as well. No matter what it is women are looking for, the other women who have more of what men are looking for will get a better pool to choose from than the women who have less of what men are looking for. what everyman wants and what everywomen wants is different, thats whats makes us individual. One mans/womens ugly (not talking just looks wise) is another mans/womens ideal/perfect............beauty (attractiveness) is in the eye of the beholder. What makes someone attractive any manner of things from looks, personality, warmth, kindness, sexuality, confidence, generousity, smile, eyes, hair, laughter, standoffishness, braun, dress sense, education and brains etc etc etc So this evens out the "pool" you refer. Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Men never do that because they don't have to give up anything to settled down and form a family ... Well that explains all the myriad threads men start here about how women won't commit and marry them ... er, what? No, I guess your theory is bullocks. they don't get to have that choice of "I want someone wealthy as opposed to someone poor" Why? ... men really gain more than women when it comes to settling down. Well that explains all the myriad threads men start here about how women won't commit and marry them ... er, what? No, I guess your theory is ... wait this sounds so familiar ... A man will get MORE regular sex while in a relationship than he will being single Oh I see, you're trying to make a joke. Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 what everyman wants and what everywomen wants is different .... What people will settle for is different, the ideals they desire are more alike than different; most differences are in the details. Link to post Share on other sites
blondesmiler Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 What people will settle for is different, the ideals they desire are more alike than different; most differences are in the details. your chatting BS now. What I find attractive is men with open minds rather than closed off one!!! :laugh: Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 We stand to lose the less we make a man work for us .... This is why I won't pay for early dates or go dutch, and I WILL walk away from a man who wants that right off the bat even if he is GREAT. I hope your prospective partners know about this attitude early on for their sakes. Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 your chatting BS now. Hahaha. Well I just ignore what women say and watch what they do; it's a lot more consistent that way and the things I learn are more useful. Link to post Share on other sites
movingonandon Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 ^^^ Well, you can't quilt anybody into marrying you per the above scheme (and if you do - they'll resent you). But they'll probably just date somebody else instead of succumbing to this type of blackmail. The empowerment of women is great, but the side effect is that men lost almost any incentive to marry. 50 years ago you didn't have this problem, because if you got married, you knew that most likely you wife would be devoted to you and to your family no matter what, hence it was a no-brainer to commit to a woman and be a proper "family man". People are quick to mis-label this as "opression" without realising that it is actually perfectly balanced interaction - the man is easily committed to a woman because he knows that this involves relatively low risk to justify him giving up sexual and financial freedom. Fast forward to present day - you get married, only to have your wife flip out and move out with half of your assets the second things don't go her way. That's all fine, we'll roll with the times, I'm just saying that it changed the dynamics of courtship and dating irreverseably, most notably in that it reduces the incentive to marry; and any witholding games like the ones you contemplate above are not going to fix it... Women today are just as great as they were 50 years ago, it's just harder to love them and be devoted to them 'till death.. etc.'. What most guys wuld want in a (marital) relationship is stability, not "fierceness" Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well that explains all the myriad threads men start here about how women won't commit and marry them ... er, what? No, I guess your theory is ... wait this sounds so familiar ... . Women are the ones complaining that men won't marry them because they have given men ALL they have to offer, and are playing wifey and the men's attitude is this: . If so, why bother with marriage, given that good girlfriends already cook and are emotionally supportive, hmm? When a man gets everything he needs from a woman he has no need to progress, and tends to become more complacent. If as a woman you put out right away no strings attached, pay for his dates, do all the asking and cook and clean for him what the hell sort of incentive does a man have to keep pursuing that woman? If all women were to act this way there would be NO incentive whatsoever for men to commit, to even HAVE a relationship. Of course guys would LOVE for that to happen, but it ain't happening so long as there are women smart enough to know that the true worth is in what the woman controls. SO if a woman knows that the value of a woman is in how she can hold court in terms of a relationship progressing to the point of procreation under a monogamous pairing, she will give accordingly to get to where she needs to be. And I know this will upset a lot of guys and you will rebel and tell me that I am the type of woman you avoid like the plague but that's OK, for every one of you that avoids me like the plague there are 10 more of you that will flock to me, so that's why going back to the original statistic on why women want financial stability in a mate, it's BECAUSE we have power of choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Fast forward to present day - you get married, only to have your wife flip out and move out with half of your assets the second things don't go her way. Half YOUR assets if she brought nothing to the table as some of you are suggesting in hooking up with a woman with no other aspirations other than to be a wife to you and mother to the children. IF she is a contrbuting member of society with her own financial means and assets she will move out with half of BOTH your combined assets, not just your stuff. Still reading the rest of your post had to comment on that. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The empowerment of women is great, but the side effect is that men lost almost any incentive to marry. Men lost any incentive to marry because they get everything for free and with little to NO effort, women call you and ask you out now, women pay for your dates now, women feck and chuck you now of course you have 0 incentive to marry why would you when you can have all that for little to no effort on your part? Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 If as a woman you put out right away no strings attached, pay for his dates, do all the asking and cook and clean for him what the hell sort of incentive does a man have to keep pursuing that woman? If she's really great, to keep her around. If men are not pursuing maybe it's because they don't see anything worth running after? The great career and multi-dimensional shoe selection capabilities of a lot of women just don't add anything for the vast majority of men. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 If she's really great, to keep her around. If men are not pursuing maybe it's because they don't see anything worth running after? Well speaking strictly from experience from the point of someone who has always been pursued and not the other way around, I must have something that's in demand. The great career and multi-dimensional shoe selection capabilities of a lot of women just don't add anything for the vast majority of men. True enough! It was a LOT better for men when they had us cooped up at home completely disconnected from the real world and they were the only ones who were able to poke the secretary, and our only goal in life was to cater to a man's every macho need while we begged to be fed a bone. Which is why it's even MORE important for a lot of women keep their independence. It gives us bargaining power, again the premise of your stat in the original post! Link to post Share on other sites
sumdude Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 True enough! It was a LOT better for men when they had us cooped up at home completely disconnected from the real world and they were the only ones who were able to poke the secretary, and our only goal in life was to cater to a man's every macho need while we begged to be fed a bone. You make some good points but sometimes it seems like your view of what used to be comes off as a bit stilted. In more cases I think there was just a different division of labor and responsibilities in the past that worked quite well for a very long while. I grew up with a 'stay at home mom'... and every once in a while your comments on women like that border on derogatory. Let me tell you one thing... she would rip you a new one if she was still around. She held a preety equal share of decision making as well. That was one fierce woman and had a lot more to her than just cooking, cleaning etc.. and she was not cooped up.. heck she had more free time to move around and do things later on in her life than my dad did because he was 'cooped up' in an office 40 - 80 hours a week... so who exactly is getting the better deal sometimes? Luckily we currently live in an environment where there is more time and freedom to be had for individuals in general so gender roles are changing as well. The unfortunate side effect is that children don't have as solid a familial foundation. But I guess I'm some kind of throwback... my folks stayed married till the day they died... seems like most of my friends come from divorced homes and have a totally different view of marriage and relationships than I do. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I grew up with a 'stay at home mom'... and every once in a while your comments on women like that border on derogatory. Let me tell you one thing... she would rip you a new one if she was still around. So did I Sumdude, my mom was a STAHM too. I'm sorry if you feel your mom would be offended that is not my goal. I would not say anything here that I would not say to my mother's face because I have the utmost respect for the woman. She would agree with the things I am saying and would even add that her life was a lot more balanced and she felt a lot more complete inside as a human being and a woman being a mom and wife but also having her own financial independence and life OUTSIDE of the home. she went back to work when we were all old enough to take care of ourselves we were in highschool and worked until her early 60's not because she HAD to but because she wanted to, she enjoyed going in to work and doing something with her life other than making the entire focal point of her day "What will I make my husband for dinner today?" and "do we have enough milk and toilet paper?" That's not a rewarding as some of you men make it out to be In turn I am also a woman, lest you forget, one who will gladly give up her independence and career for the right man to form a family and do the exact same thing my mother did for us but I have my career to fall back upon and it feels great to be able to know that since if for whatever reason things don't work out with my companion or husband, then I know I was a somebody all on my own before he came into my life and will continue to be that when/if he doesn't work out. People wonder why women stay in abusive one sided relationships? Fear of being alone in the big scary world. Not being able to fend for themselves. That is really sad. A man doesn't have that fear because he is going to work and be on his own regardless a man is not conditioned to find love for support like some women he has to fend for himself therefore he never has to worry about love not working out for him. This is the core of what men find so frustrating the idea that women finally put themselves on a leverage point where by we don't need to depend on them we choose to. Link to post Share on other sites
movingonandon Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well speaking strictly from experience from the point of someone who has always been pursued and not the other way around, I must have something that's in demand. True enough! It was a LOT better for men when they had us cooped up at home completely disconnected from the real world and they were the only ones who were able to poke the secretary, and our only goal in life was to cater to a man's every macho need while we begged to be fed a bone. Which is why it's even MORE important for a lot of women keep their independence. It gives us bargaining power, again the premise of your stat in the original post! This is all true - as I said, there is a lot to like and love in interactions with present day women, as long as we're not talking about marriage - that's the interaction that has taken a major hit. I don't like women any less because of that - I'm just less likely to marry one because of that, unless she's capable of convincingly demonstrating strong family orientation and devotion, not shoe-picking capabilities . So no, empowerment does NOT give women more bargaining power as far as marriage is concerned, it might even diminish it. So, as long as women understand the tradeoffs coming with empowerment and independence and don't wonder why the hell aren't their men marrying them (and give them a hard time about that) I see no problem at all. Basically, a woman who wants to get married *easily* needs to make up her mind about what's more important to her and then own it Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 .... when they had us cooped up at home completely disconnected .... You have a bizarre view of a home makers job I guess. I do for myself when someone isn't there to do it for me and it's just not that much work, leaving a lot of time to pursue all sorts of activities *if* one wasn't also working 60 hours a week. Now on the other hand *I* am pretty cooped up in this office for huge slices of time, like the old joke says; "the problem with work is that it takes all day". We have machines to wash clothes, wash dishes, robots to sweep the floor, chemicals to bleach and clean all manners of household surfaces, you name it. The free time afforded this sort of life is pretty large. Now granted adding kids will eat up a lot of this but I'm hoping she will enjoy spending time nurturing the kids with me. One hopes. .... no, empowerment does NOT give women more bargaining power as far as marriage is concerned, it might even diminish it. Exactly. Back on topic, women seem to be wired to view men who earn more as more attractive than they would otherwise, to the point where it looked like $70K a year can earn or lose a guy about 1 point on the old 1-10 scale. Men typically don't give 2 cents about what a woman earns. They like youth and health, with women possessing external characteristics of those traits generally being identified as beautiful. Thus we don't see a lot of market for cosmetics that will make a 20 year old ballet dancer look like she's 32 nor do we have clothes promoted as making you look saggy as a 40 year old. Thus a woman pursuing a career might find it fun but it adds virtually nothing to her sex appeal while at the same time sapping her youth away. Link to post Share on other sites
CommitmentPhobe Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thus a woman pursuing a career might find it fun but it adds virtually nothing to her sex appeal while at the same time sapping her youth away. Who says it doesn't? I much prefer women that have a career, esp a creative one. I think it gives them an extra dimension, and I don't know where you get the idea that it saps their youth? What are they supposed to do sit at home all day making themselves look pretty? I'm 33 and my last couple of girlfriends were a decade younger than me. It's all very fun at first, but to make it last, I way prefer women on my wavelength and that can give me a bit of challenge. I can easy get a girl that age, it's not even a challenge, and it's nothing to do with money, but it just doesn't work. See, I think this whole thing about guys of a certain age being attracted only to much younger women has to do with them not getting experience or much of "it" between the age 20-30. At some point, you get bored of having a bit of skirt, it's not all it's cracked up to be, so to keep that as your goal in life is rather sad. If you've been around a bit, at some stage you just accept that that phase of your life is other, and in a lot of ways you're glad it is. I can't imagine spending my time searching for my long lost days where I didn't go out there and knock em dead. Been there, done it, bought the t-shirt. Don't need to do it again. On the genetic/childbearing front, I don't believe that s a younger woman is better either. I can't imagine bringing up a kid with a woman that hasn't experienced a career or has a sense of independence. Link to post Share on other sites
Author clv0116 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 .... I don't know where you get the idea that it saps their youth? Elapsed time erodes youth. Building a career takes time. I can't make it any simpler for you. Of course you like career women, based on your handle why would you not? Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 You have a bizarre view of a home makers job I guess. I do for myself when someone isn't there to do it for me and it's just not that much work, leaving a lot of time to pursue all sorts of activities Do you juggle all the housework and dinner lunch and breaky for two (you and your mate) plus cater to children who need your attention ALL day long? You do realise that when you do this day in day out you don't HAVE an option to do things or not? You HAVE to feed your family, you HAVE to have the house clean and their clothes ready, you HAVE to clean their poopie bums every hour, you HAVE to leave enough energy to make love to your husband when he gets home and listen to him and be supportive when he tells you about computer crashing in the middle budget report preparation. There is absolutely NO time for a long mid afternoon mind fecking wank to porn on the computer, no time to closely study odds for some bets on Ladbrokes, or a nap or even a chance to call in sick to all of that when you ARE sick because your family needs you. You don't HAVE an option you do this EVERY day for years to come. SO unless you have done ALL that day in day out 24/7 because weekends don't exist for moms with babies (motherly duties don't know a specific day of the week) YOU my dear haven't the faintest what it is like to do the jobs of SAHM so please spare me on the "I do for myself and it's not that much work, there's plenty time to devote to hobbies as a stay at home" :laugh: Link to post Share on other sites
CommitmentPhobe Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Elapsed time erodes youth. Building a career takes time. I can't make it any simpler for you. Of course you like career women, based on your handle why would you not? Erm, what else are they supposed to do with their youth? According to you they're supposed to spend it letting a guy take care of them?? It is possible to go to Uni, build a career and have time to go out in the evening you know. Actually I'm not a commitment phobe at all. I used to be a few years ago, definitely not now. And funnily enough, when I was, it wasn't older career women I was banging. But I'll leave those type of women to sponge of the type of guy that can't offer them anything else. Link to post Share on other sites
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