7 months later...they still work together!

[Owl]

First off...sit down and work out a budget and gameplan to allow the two of you to survive for at least six months without her income from that job. If really needed, factor in some MUCH lesser amount of income from her assuming she's forced to take a much lower level position.

 

Then, sit her down, and calmly, quietly tell her that you can't take this anymore. Look her right in the eye, and inform her that she either leaves her job (AND OM), or she leaves you. Tell her you've got a plan for surviving without her income.

 

And tell her that this is non-negotiable. Tell her you don't care if she calls it an affair or a peanut butter sandwhich...what she's doing is destroying your marriage, and it has to END if the marriage is to survive.

 

Expect to see WWIII kick off again.

 

While she screams and rants and raves...you do NOTHING. NOTHING. Sit there quietly, and let her throw her fit. Whenever she stops, or pauses...you sit there quietly and pause for at least five seconds (count them off slowly in your head), and then QUIETLY and CALMLY repeat back the salient points of what she just said. If she starts her tirade again...stop talking, let her go...sit there quietly.

 

Repeat this for as long as it takes for her to stop screaming.

 

Here's the key...the louder she gets...the quiet and more controlled you get.

 

It's impossible for someone to keep a fight going long like this.

 

STAY FIRM...don't waiver, don't negotiate.

 

If she tells you that she's leaving...let her go. Don't let her take anything that belongs to you, or is joint property. She can take what she needs to survive...clothes, toiletries, etc...

 

If she leaves...cut off her funds immediately. Shut her out of any joint accounts, cancel her credit cards, etc... This is protecting yourself financially, AND it let's her see life without you.

 

If she agrees to end contact with him, and leave work, make it clear to her that she's got to PROVE all of this to you, since you KNOW she's been lying to you about contact up to this point.

 

This is your starting point for recovery.

[lkjh]

Get a key logger and figure out her email password. Do not have her write the letter. What if the OM was to claim he had feelings for her?

[five&dime]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

Taylor - your bolding of so much of my description above certainly can give the impression that our home is now an untenable war-zone, but it's not. I'm a professional writer, so I might be prone to a bit of hyperbole in my description of things. My wife and I are non-violent people. I've never laid a finger on her, nor the children. Not once. But it has most certainly been an unhappy household. Terms like "shell-shocked" and "post traumatic stress"...I don't know, it's just how I feel. Furniture and plates are certainly not flying through the air in our house, and we have both been hypersensitive to trying to keep our crisis as far away from the children as possible.

 

Still, much of what you said rings true. We have both, myself included, not handled this in the best way. Not even in a good way. In addition to extensive therapy, I've read 15 books on the subject of marriage and affairs since my discovery. Obviously in this type of situation, logic and emotion often clash, and many times raw emotion gets the better of you. It's all been quite the learning process, one I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

 

I've read so many responses along the lines of "she's continuing her A" and "she doesn't really want to work on the marriage while her A continues". Maybe that's true, but she's in MC and hasn't missed a single appointment. In fact, it's me who's actually cancelled a couple of appointments because I just wasn't in the mood (usually because of a direct result of something she did or some new piece of disappointing information I uncovered.)

 

I've spoken to both my IC and MC therapists about the difficulty in juxtaposing the notion of healing, repairing and rebuilding our marriage with the fact that she still has daily contact with the person she betrayed me for (coupled with the tidbits of further betrayal I've uncovered along the way in the form of personal communications between them).

 

I do believe she has tried (on some level), from the very beginning when I first discovered the A, to erect a wall between her and the OM (he is single). The lunches have stopped. The cell phone to cell phone calls have stopped. The emails between their personal accounts have stopped. Of course, their A traveled down many trails, and it's the trails I have access to (credit card statements, cell phone bills, etc.) that they no longer travel down. I have no access to other trails (work, work emails, work IM's, etc.), and it's at work where their relationship blossomed.

 

 

But whatever wall she did erect has been compromised along the way. They've both gotten around the wall from time to time (I have found), and I can only assume that the wall isn't as big of a wall as she would have me believe. I'm not with her at the office, and it was in that office, over a six-year period, where the foundation of their relationship was built. This isn't some new cute guy in accounting. For the first three years of OM working there, their offices were three steps across the hall from each other. Three solid years. They were closer in physical proximity to each other than anyone else, by far.

 

So, their's is a relationship built on a 6-year foundation.

 

I do believe she wants to work on our marriage. It's just very difficult to work on the marriage, for me, while they still have contact. I have asked her how she can just "turn off her feelings" for someone at the drop of a hat (or the discovery of the A), and she has repeatedly said, "I am strong. My family means more to me. I am strong." And I do believe she has tried (on some level). But I have seen and discovered enough instances where, even though she has tried, she has failed. Of course, it can be argued (and has been on this forum!) that she hasn't even remotely tried. 4 resumes in over six months? That's not a ringing endorsement for trying really hard.

 

Obviously, I don't know what's in her heart. Only she knows that. I do believe she has tried. Unfortunately, I also believe that regardless of her effort, seeing OM every day is not the formula for successfully dissolving feelings for someone. How do you just "turn off" your feelings for someone, even if you really try to? Especially when you see them every day? OM hasn't changed. I've met him a number of times. He is a "nice guy, a good listener, gentle, respectful"...all those things that made her fall for him in the first place. (Of course, I no longer view him as any of those things. He's a despicable and loathesome cretin to do what he has done, and regardless of whether or not his feelings toward my wife are reciprocated by him and this is all just fun sport for him, he allowed a married woman with two little kids to get carried away with him, and he enjoyed it. Still does. This makes him a despicable excuse for a human being. And I have reminded her of that a lot.)

 

So, yes, on some level I do believe she wants to work on the marriage, but she has failed to do much of the really, really hard work needed to help re-establish trust with me and assure me that her relationship with OM is completely over. No NC. No "letter" to OM. Locked work email. Snippets of connection discovered by me. There are more. God, I know some of you reading this will look at me like some rube! I guess if it walks like a rube and quacks like a rube...

 

I don't necessarily agree that she is still enjoying a full-fledged A with OM anymore. I do believe she has tried to drastically curb her connection to him. Still, she has failed to make that wall impenetrable. Her nature is genuinely nice and non-confrontational, regardless of what she has done. Good people make bad choices, and she certainly falls into that category. Don't get me wrong, I remain very angry, hurt, you name it, at her...I certainly didn't deserve this. I'm just trying to navigate these waters in a productive way, especially if she's frazzled and at the end of her rope, too. We've had a very difficult six+ months. I've slept in the guest room since October.

 

Okay...let it rain. Call me naive. Call me the fool. I can take it. I'm just trying to save this marriage, if it's ultimately salvagable at all. Time will tell.

[Owl]

OK...so what are you going to DO as a result of all this deep thought?

 

Your insight is interesting...but what matters is HOW YOU PLAN ON ENDING THE AFFAIR AND RECONCILING YOUR MARRIAGE.

 

That's what I still don't see in your last post, and what I specifically tried to spell out for you.

 

Thinking about the why's, about how she feels about the whole thing...that can all wait until you're actually recovering your marriage.

 

You're not there yet.

 

Right now, her attendance in MC is nothing more than that...she's showing up.

 

But I can garauntee she's not being honest with you or the MC...and that totally negates it's value in saving your marriage.

 

You need to get her to a point where she's ACTIVELY working to save your marriage, and that will never happen while she's still in the affair (which she clearly is).

 

Your only priority right now needs to be focused on getting her OUT of contact, of any kind, from OM. Anything less is contrary to recovery...you won't make it.

 

So what's your PLAN on making that happen?

[jwi71]

So, yes, on some level I do believe she wants to work on the marriage, but she has failed to do much of the really, really hard work needed to help re-establish trust with me and assure me that her relationship with OM is completely over. No NC. No "letter" to OM. Locked work email. Snippets of connection discovered by me. There are more. God, I know some of you reading this will look at me like some rube! I guess if it walks like a rube and quacks like a rube...

 

Oh you get it, you just won't actually STAND UP for YOURSELF. Grow a spine already.

 

Unless YOU make a change, NOTHING will change. You will still be hurt and angry and sleeping in the guest room. And your W will still be banging her OM (in 6 years of EA, yeah my money is on PA as well). Its YOUR life, live it as you see fit.

 

I was in a very similar situation to you OP. I'll give you the pertinent points. My W was boffing her boss. I caught them via a chat session. I threw her out that night and had my biz lawyer give me a reference on a divorce lawyer. Got appt the next day. I then emailed the chat logs (racy) to every email contact she had - boss, boss' boss, coworker, clients (yes clients), friends, family...everyone. Had W meet me there, negotiated settlement and we both signed. Whole time my W was saying "I don't want this". I relented and issued my demands...inlcuding quitting her job immediately. She did. And met all the others - including IC for both and MC for us.

 

Consequences to HER actions. She knew in no uncertain terms she failed to deliver and she was out on her ass. Its not about what I believe - its about her PROVING worhty of return.

 

Your W...has NO consequences. She has you, the house, the kids and the penis on the side. Why should she change?

 

So YOU change for YOU and HER.

 

No more pretty words. No more grand oratory. In six months its gotten you what?

 

ACTIONS.

[imagine]

She is unable to stop contact with OM.

 

How viable is your financial option when a divorce kicks in.

 

Why are you two presently sleeping apart. You need to reconnect.

[taylor]

Five&Dime,

 

Your wife will not be able to take one step towards reconciliation until she comes out of the affair fog. And she will not be able to come out of the affair fog until she breaks ALL contact with the OM.

 

Affair addiction is powerful. Even if your wife wanted desparately to detach from the OM, she is not going to be able to do it as long as she is working with him. It's impossible, no matter how hard she tries. The draw is that strong. Don't underestimate it's power.

 

This is why you continue to see your wife waffling, wavering. She is weak and vulnerable to this temptation. The only solution..remove the temptation.

 

I am a MW who had a 7-month-long EA with a sOM at the workplace. I broke all contact with the OM a few short days after D-day. And even going NC it still took a good 6 months for the affair fog to clear, another 3 months for the longing, the fantasies and the memories to fade, and another month or so for my feelings to start coming back for my husband.

 

Your wife knew this guy and worked with him side by side for 6 years. And she continues to work with him. And who knows if the affair turned physical. Your wife will not overcome her feelings for this man for a long time, even if she wants to, and even if she goes NC. It takes a long time. It's a monumental task.

 

But she will have no chance of recovering from this affair as long as she works with him. Believe me, fantasies and memories are enough to keep an affair going for months after NC, even.

 

You say you don't know what is in your wife's heart. Sit her down and ask her. You need to know this. And her talking about it will help her untangle her own confusion.

 

Share what's in your heart as well. The pain, the confusion, the anger, your needs. Let her know you want to save the marriage.

 

Talk, talk, talk.

 

I re-committed to my marriage and my husband soon after D-day DESPITE the fact that I still had feelings for the OM. I had little hope that things would turn around for my husband and I and I wasn't even real sure I could get feelings back for him.

 

But you know what kept us moving forward? My husband's faith in us. He never stopped believing that we could make it thru this crisis. And now that we are, I am so thankful that he never gave up. He carried us both thru the storm for a long time...til I could get my head and my heart untangled again.

 

Hang in there. And remember, communication is key. It's how you will reconnect.

 

And as soon as you and she feel comfortable enough, get off the couch and back together in bed. By doing so, you tear down one more wall between you. You don't have to have sex. But I know some of our most intimate talks took place there after D-day. The sex came way later.

[citizen67]

Your wife sounds incredibly selfish. First off, you need to tell her that you need complete transparency - you need her work and personal email passwords, and you'll be checking regularly, and you'll be checking her cell phone on a daily basis as well - if she says no, that's a deal breaker - this is NOT alot to ask if she is on the up and up. Next you need to call him - tell him you are aware of what you consider an inappropriate relationship btwn him and you wife, and unless he wants to be a witness at your divorce trial, it had better stop. Then you need to tell her that she has to make a decision about whether she wants to stay in this marriage - I think a time frame is a good idea - a week or so. If she does want to save it, she is going to have to work on repairing the damage done by her betrayal

[five&dime]

Wow! So much advice, it's almost overwhelming. But I appreciate it. There is almost universal consensus here that she is still in her A, regardless of what she is saying. I guarantee you she would deny it with every inch of her fiber (I also guarantee that everyone of you folks would laugh out loud at her denial.) Then she'd get super-indignant toward me.

 

Owl - I hear you. I need a plan of action. A plan with teeth. I'll give it some serious thought.

 

jwi71 - a little over the top, but you're in the same camp as Owl. Action with teeth is needed. Thanks.

 

Taylor - I understand the concept of the "fog" you (and everyone) feels my wife is in. What you (and everyone) seems to be saying is that as long as they work together and have regular contact, the fog will remain. Is that your opinion? You talk about communication, and we have communicated. Less than a week ago we had a fairly frank two-hour conversation, and at one point I asked her point blank, "What does OM mean to you? Right now? This instant?"

 

W: "He is nothing more than a work colleague. That is it."

 

Me: "You're sure? Nothing more?"

 

W: "He's just a work colleague."

 

Taylor - you say talk, talk, talk... Well, there you go. How do I reconcile her words with the consensus on this board? Of even your opinion of the fog and where she must still be in her inner-thoughts about OM? I can share what's in my heart with her, and I have ad nauseum. But when she says OM's "nothing more than a work colleague...", how is that honest and open dialogue?

 

My guess at your response--and many therapists' responses--will be to continue to talk, talk, talk, and maybe, just maybe, she'll open up more. I know she's denying and still minimizing everything. It's what you do in A's. Of course she is.

 

Thanks

[taylor]

Taylor - I understand the concept of the "fog" you (and everyone) feels my wife is in. What you (and everyone) seems to be saying is that as long as they work together and have regular contact, the fog will remain. Is that your opinion?

 

Yes, as long as they are working together she will not have an opportunity to detach emotionally from him. It's not possible in this affair relationship. It's not possible in many "normal" relationships. Look on the Break Up forum and the Coping forum and see how often NC is recommended to help posters get over the loss of a lover.

 

You talk about communication, and we have communicated. Less than a week ago we had a fairly frank two-hour conversation, and at one point I asked her point blank, "What does OM mean to you? Right now? This instant?"

 

W: "He is nothing more than a work colleague. That is it."

 

Me: "You're sure? Nothing more?"

 

W: "He's just a work colleague."

 

It's communication. But not honest communication. Believe me, I can feel your frustration. Your wife is in denial. For whatever reason, she does not want to admit how strong her feelings are for this OM.

 

Maybe because she wants to continue the affair. Maybe because she is too ashamed. Maybe because she is afraid of the consequences. Maybe because this man does not feel the same for her so she feels like a fool admitting feelings for him. Who knows. But you and she both know she is in denial.

 

You have enough proof that she is in at least an EA with this man. The communication between them is enough.

 

I know we all sound like a broken record here. But you need to get your wife to quit her job for the sake of the marriage. This is the first step towards marital recovery.

 

If she won't quit, you will have the answers you are looking for. You will know she has chosen him over you...and you will know she is not willing to take steps to recover the marriage.

 

I agree with OWL that you should figure out a budget over the next 6 months that will permit her to quit her job. She will have no excuses not to then.

 

She can continue to deny, deny, deny. But if you force the job decision, the writing will be on the wall. To her and to you.

 

It's too bad she can't come clean with you. She's already said she betrayed you and that she had stronger feelings for the OM than he did for her. She ought to just spill the rest, for heaven's sakes.

 

Ask her this, if the guy was truly just a coworker, why the heck are you sleeping on the couch!!!! This man is a huge elephant coming between you and your wife and your marriage.

 

You have been a patient man to put up with this for this many months post D-day. I can tell you are at your breaking point.

 

Taylor - you say talk, talk, talk... Well, there you go. How do I reconcile her words with the consensus on this board? Of even your opinion of the fog and where she must still be in her inner-thoughts about OM? I can share what's in my heart with her, and I have ad nauseum. But when she says OM's "nothing more than a work colleague...", how is that honest and open dialogue?

 

My guess at your response--and many therapists' responses--will be to continue to talk, talk, talk, and maybe, just maybe, she'll open up more. I know she's denying and still minimizing everything. It's what you do in A's. Of course she is.

 

Thanks

[whichwayisup]

W: "He is nothing more than a work colleague. That is it."

 

Me: "You're sure? Nothing more?"

 

W: "He's just a work colleague."

 

You: If he's just a work colleague, then why is he more important than me and our marriage? It seems you're choosing him over us, and I'm just letting you know I'm coming close to calling it quits if you don't get your sh*t together.

[five&dime]

Right, Taylor...like you said, it's communication, but it's not honest communication. It's frustrating when you know and feel you're being lied to but you can't decipher between the lies and the truth. It's a scenario that naturally leads you to feel like talking less, not more.

 

When she refers to OM now as "nothing more than a work colleague", I know it's not true. It can't be. Someone she has admittedly developed feelings for and acted on those feelings is now just another work colleague like the other 64 people in the office? C'mon!

 

But call her on it, press the point, and she'll just say, "Don't tell me how I feel. I'm the only one that knows how I feel, and I'm telling you the truth."

 

It's hard to talk to someone you feel is lying to you, and it's equally hard talking to someone you know may be giving you some truth and some lies and you can't decipher which is which. I guess the safe thing would be to just assume that virtually everything she says about OM is a lie. Understand that going in, and maybe there's still some progress that can be made by talking.

 

And, yes, it is frustrating when she's essentially "come clean" to some degree, yet she'll say "But now? Oh, OM's just a work colleague now, nothing more." I can't tell you how many times her own words and actions have painted her into a corner. She has contradicted herself constantly from DDay, and it's just impossible for her to reconcile some of the things she's said with her own actions, even to this day. Yet she'll still try to tell you the banana you're staring at on the table is actually a bowl of fruit loops.

 

Obviously, she's still denying basic truths, be it from shame or trying to protect me or the simple fact, as you say, that as long as she still sees OM daily, it's next to impossible for her to 100% detatch herself emotionally from him, regardless of her efforts. And I do believe, on some level, she has tried. Probabaly all of the above.

 

Thanks

[whichwayisup]

she's still denying basic truths, be it from shame or trying to protect me

She's doing it to protect herself, this has NOTHING to do with you or the OM. She's still in the affair fog and acting selfish, that's a fact. If she cared about your feelings then she would cut this guy OUT of her life in everyway..Problem is, her ego and her feelings are being fed EVERYTIME he pays any kind of attention to her..She's probably addicted to how he makes her feel.

[Owl]

Stop talking with her about how she feels about him...instead, focus on how YOU feel about "her and him".

 

THAT is the crux at this point, and it's the only way you'll be able to force a change.

 

You can't make her see what she's turning her eyes away from.

 

Instead of making this about him...make it about your marriage.

[SRV]

You are up against a monumental task.

 

She is not feeling any consequences to her actions, which equates to no motivation to change her behavior.

 

She has definitely shown you who she is and what she is capable of, and do not be fooled, I think this is a full blown PA if you dig deep enough, you will unravel that for yourself.

 

What is your end goal? Is this marriage worth saving considering what you are up against? If so, you need a plan of action, ACT and stick to it full knowing the consequences of choice at the end.

[jwi71]

Right, Taylor...like you said, it's communication, but it's not honest communication. It's frustrating when you know and feel you're being lied to but you can't decipher between the lies and the truth.

 

This is PRECISELY why talking gets you NOWHERE.

 

You can keep talking and thinking and playing "what if" all you want. It CHANGES nothing and well, that's where you are - little moved from when you discovered the A.

 

Forget talking to your W. Its pointless. Its pointless because your W is so deep in the fog she can't see the tip of her nose. The ONLY way out is to force NC between her lover and herself. The ONLY way.

 

And she will NOT choose that until there are consequences and this becomes "real" for her.

 

Her consequence is the loss of her job or the loss of you and the M.

 

Until then NOTHING changes.

 

Stop talking. Stop thinking. ACT.

 

OKay...what is YOUR plan to end her A? What actions are you going to take right now to save your M?

[taylor]

I rescind my advice pushing for open honest communication with your wife. You are beating your head against the wall with this one.

 

I agree with other posters that your only choice now is to force her to make a decision..you or the OM; your marriage or her job.

 

Sit her down and tell her very clearly and firmly that you CHOOSE not to live like this any longer. She either quits her job, severs ties with the OM, and commits to working on the marriage OR she keeps her job, continues contact with the OM, and you divorce. Mean it!

 

Give her a short amount of time to make this decision. You have already given her 7 months!

 

Then go see a divorce lawyer. Let her see that you did this. It will put some teeth into your ultimatum. It will show her that you are not afraid to lose her. It will show her that you WILL NOT continue to live the way you are now. You deserve better.

 

And remember, no decision on her part IS a decision.

 

Five&Dime, you will go nowhere..you will hang in limbo, until your wife makes this decision. How much longer do you want to live like this?

[taylor]

One more thing I forgot...

 

I agree with OWL. In light of her stubborn denial regarding the OM, cease all talk regarding him, the nature of their relationship, and her feelings for him. You apparently are not going to get a straight answer regarding this.

 

Instead, tell her YOU feel uncomfortable about her relationship with him, regardless of what that relationship is, and you want that relationship severed because YOU feel it is causing problems in the marriage.

 

Don't argue with her anymore about what it is or isn't.

 

Tell her the relationship is disrupting the marriage and it has to end. Period. End of discussion.

[SRV]

If she clearly had RESPECT for both you and your marriage, she would honor you and your union in marriage, the lack of this clearly shows you what she thinks both of you and the marriage.

 

Boundaries, time-lines, contigency plans need to be established and adhered to for her to feel the full impact of her actions or lack thereof.

 

Concentrate on your kids, following the advise you have been given here and try to waste no more time, she is out enjoying herself and having the best of "both" worlds- family and affair- as you wait for her to "change" her ways, time waits for no man/woman.

 

Inaction = Time wasted in this situation.