giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I’ll try and be brief... married 18 years, together 23, 4 kids (16, 13, 10 and 8). Mostly happy for the first 10 years, after the birth of the second child we start having problems, mainly about sex. She's off it and I find it very difficult to deal with it. Put pressure on her and make things worse. After another 10 years of feeling rejected, I start withdrawing and participate very little to family life... I feel I cannot be part of a family without the emotional connection and intimacy with my wife. We talk about it, but she refuses to do anything about our sex life. I’m very present as father (I work from home) and help a lot around the house (cook meals everyday and look after the kids when she is at work... she works shifts). About six months ago she tells me she’s fed up with my isolation and proposes to go to counselling together. We go, but it makes things worse. I think we come to the conclusion that our differences are too big. Our sex life becomes even worse. At the end of last December, she dumps me. We are together again for a few days and then we decide to separate temporarily. I move upstairs into my office. We talk again and she agrees to go to counselling on her own, both for the sex issue and her own past issues regarding her upbringing. She’s also been on antidepressants for many years due to her anxiety. Unfortunately, I’m getting really fed up with it. My life’s been hell for a very long time and I don’t know if I’m prepared to wait another 6 months/1 year in the hope that she will be able to solve these issues. I’m at the end of my tether. I really used to love her a lot, but my feelings for her are dissolving, day after day. I don’t really want to hurt my children, but I feel that I’ve got to a stage where I believe I should put my happiness first. I also re-connected with this old friend online and we get on very well... nothing’s has happened, but it makes me realize what I’m missing in a relationship. I honestly don’t know what to do. I want to be loved again, but I feel that it will never happen with my wife again. Is it too late? Thank you for any advice... Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 So your wife disconnected you emotionally in the past in addition to eschewing sex? Or, do you equate emotional connection with sex and, when sex stops, there is no emotional connection or intimacy from your perspective? That's an important distinction, IMO. Tell me, do you feel that your wife ever believed in you? Note I said feel, not think. Feel is an emotional processing of signals you get from another person, in this case. Others will tell you how children change intimacy and a marriage. They're right. If you're compatible, the beauty of creating children will serve to enhance your bond and love for your partner. You will face your challenges and successes as a team, an unbreakable union of two minds and two souls. Do you feel like a team? Have you ever? Contemplate that... Who first said, in counseling, that your differences were too big? Why? How long did you attend counseling? How many sessions? Personally, and I've done this, I'd suggest establishing a specific timeline in your mind wrt progress related to counseling/treatment. I specifically gave us a year of counseling and a year of post counseling work to see if health could be achieved. I also helped my W buy a house of her own so she wouldn't feel pressured and to observe how she proactively approaches "bending for the betterment of the team". I "bent" to feel good about myself. MC taught me it's the emotional impetus for actions which assigns positivity or negativity to them. Positive actions imbue a sense of well-being, independent of how the are received or processed. Hopefully you'll get specific advice from others. I'm more of a support guy Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I also re-connected with this old friend online and we get on very well... nothing’s has happened, but it makes me realize what I’m missing in a relationship. I honestly don’t know what to do. I want to be loved again, but I feel that it will never happen with my wife again. Is it too late? Thank you for any advice... Aaah. There's always the "and also I did this...." bit. I guarantee that if you hadn't "connected with this old friend"...you'd still be trudging the same-old, same-old.... You'd be there for the sake of your kids and bimbling along with your wife. You wouldn't be posting. Why are you not going to counselling together? You're married together, aren't you? You're in this together? Do you think you are blameless, or that this is 100% not your problem? Your bottom line is - "I want to screw someone else, and the temptation is huge because i'm not getting it for my wife. Should I?" The answer is No. You made a vow to your wife for better or for worse. Go to couples counselling. If push comes to shove, separate, divorce - And THEN "reconnect with your friend". But don't do this arse-about-face. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 OP, did you have female friends before you got married? While you were married? Can you relate to women in any way other than a sexual way? Important questions to ask yourself wrt your "old friend". Friends are a great support system. Do you feel like you lost your support system when you got married? Did you choose whichever course of action occurred? I agree with Geishawhelk that you should examine this current inappropriate emotional attachment and decide if it is healthy for your and your M right now. Does your W know this old friend? Have they met each other? Do they get along? I ask as a preface to an example. You know that new house I helped my wife buy? Guess where I got the moving van from to move everything? Yep, my old female friend. You know, the one who reminded me what it was like to be in a healthy relationship. She and my wife know each other well now and my wife thanked her for her help in person. That's appropriate. That's what friends are for. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Thanks for your input... I need indeed to clarify a few things... I believe marriage is a combination of emotional connection and intimacy. For me, the two cannot exist without the other. I equate sex with intimacy and emotional connection. She used to believe in me, I don’t know now, because she says she doesn’t know. We are a very well-oiled machine, as a family, always been. In fact, we do get on quite well. She is a good mother and I respect her for all the good things she does for the family. We’ve been to counselling together about 6/7 times... I still wanted to go, but I felt that she wasn’t getting anywhere. Unfortunately, I don’t think that confronting her ghosts did any favour to her. She is a very private person and she hates talking about her feelings. I suppose she also didn’t like what I had to say about our marriage. It hurts. But she knows she has big problems, so she has decided to go on her own... and I’m happy about this, even if it doesn’t solve our situation... Remember... she left me... and I suggested separation in order to give her time to think and resolve her issues... @Geishawhelk... I know that, from what I said, it looked like I just want to screw around because I’m not getting it. When I said I reconnected with this old friend, I didn’t explain myself properly. We haven’t even met again, we are just talking online and we started talking by chance long after I gave my wife all the space she needs... and even if me met, I would not get involved before telling my wife. The thing is, I’ve been waiting for a solution for many years, I’ve done all I can, but nothing works. You said I made a wow to my wife. But she made a wow as well and she is not keeping it. She wants an asexual relationship with me... she’s even proposed that. I have my faults, for sure, and maybe my main fault has been not walking out on an emotionless marriage many years ago. But I think I’m a decent guy, who supports the family, does more than his own share around the house and doesn’t get the involvement he deserves. I tried very hard to get this involvement, and now I’m getting really impatient. How long am I going to sleep on the floor in my office for? Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Remember, we don't know you or your entire situation. Categorically I can say that my wife is a decent, loving person who is just emotionally incompatible with myself. Like your wife, she's "private" and there is little emotional intimacy. It's a disconnect for me, as such is a primary motivator for my sexual desire. Neither of us are "wrong", merely different. Can those differences be bridged? Can yours? I don't know. Set a timeline and stick to it. Take positive proactive measures. Don't wait around. Act, not react. Think of all the healthy examples you wish to show your children Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 OP, did you have female friends before you got married? While you were married? Can you relate to women in any way other than a sexual way? Important questions to ask yourself wrt your "old friend". Friends are a great support system. Do you feel like you lost your support system when you got married? Did you choose whichever course of action occurred? I agree with Geishawhelk that you should examine this current inappropriate emotional attachment and decide if it is healthy for your and your M right now. Does your W know this old friend? Have they met each other? Do they get along? I ask as a preface to an example. You know that new house I helped my wife buy? Guess where I got the moving van from to move everything? Yep, my old female friend. You know, the one who reminded me what it was like to be in a healthy relationship. She and my wife know each other well now and my wife thanked her for her help in person. That's appropriate. That's what friends are for. I moved to another country to be with my wife... I don't have any female friends. I never played aways and I'm always been faithful. I can see that talking to a female friend online can be seen as an emotional attachment and it might be, but can you blame me for it? At the moment, it's only being supportive chats... I need to vent. But she's someone who can listen and give advice, someone who understands and this is something completely new to me. But rest assured that I would tell my wife... on the other hand, we are technically separated... and she is the one who dumped me... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Remember, we don't know you or your entire situation. Categorically I can say that my wife is a decent, loving person who is just emotionally incompatible with myself. Like your wife, she's "private" and there is little emotional intimacy. It's a disconnect for me, as such is a primary motivator for my sexual desire. Neither of us are "wrong", merely different. Can those differences be bridged? Can yours? I don't know. Set a timeline and stick to it. Take positive proactive measures. Don't wait around. Act, not react. Think of all the healthy examples you wish to show your children I do believe that we are just merely different... we've obviously drifted apart, but it's very difficult to throw away 23 years of relationship. She says she is going to counselling, but it's been 2 and a half months since we separated and nothing has happened yet. She tends to sweep her emotions under the carpet... Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Separation is a self-fulfilling prophecy, IMO. Many say separation (even if to different parts of the house) leads to divorce because it becomes easy to be alone and not be engaged. Our MC pushed us to get back together physically when my wife was living at my mom's house (mom's in a nursing home). He said we would have a hard time solving problems and working on the relationship living separately. He was right Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Separation is a self-fulfilling prophecy, IMO. Many say separation (even if to different parts of the house) leads to divorce because it becomes easy to be alone and not be engaged. Our MC pushed us to get back together physically when my wife was living at my mom's house (mom's in a nursing home). He said we would have a hard time solving problems and working on the relationship living separately. He was right you are probably right... but at moment I feel she is having her cake and eating it... I'm still in the house, doing everything I do as usual - and I'm there for the children - but she doesn't have to put up with the side of the relationship she doesn't like... that's why I fear I might be stuck here forever and I'm fed up with it... Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I think your instincts are good. Take action Link to post Share on other sites
hunkahunkaburninlove Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 If you have put the effort in and she is still putting you off. Don't waste your life and hers. Divorce and find someone to love. Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Thank you for clarifying giotto.... Sorry I didn't come back earlier. I would add my voice to those of Carhill and hunka.... Something like this becomes so stagnant we get used to the hum-drum and live at a "lower" level than we would either prefer or deserve. We get stuck in the rut, and go round and round until it's a deep ditch..... Do you think you would be able to let her know it's over for you? Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Do you think you would be able to let her know it's over for you? mmm... it's difficult. I think we both know it's over, but as I said before, you cannot cancel a 23 year long relationship in one stroke and there are the children to be considered. I offered her the chance to think about it and take action, but I'm pretty sure it won't come to nothing... I just know her too well. But I believe I should wait and give her a proper chance, even if I'm going through hell... I tend to be a bit impatient and that's one of my biggest faults, hence my post. I feel somewhat reluctant to impose a time limit... that would put pressure on her and she is not very good with pressure... Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 giotto, if you're going to give it an honest chance, you'd better disconnect from the "AND" woman. If you remain connected to a third party, might as well call it quits now. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 It took a good friend of mine six years to get divorced. Is that long enough? Remember, you can stop at any time and can even get back together after you're divorced. I see divorce as the paperwork following the decision, just like in any business dealing. Making the decision is the hard part There's no reason that she can't continue IC and join you in FC or MC, as appropriate, if she so chooses. I recall the real clarity in MC coming about 8 months in, after 15 sessions or so. That's when I could really hold the mirror up and look at myself, rather than just biotching about my wife's emotional distance. That's when the real work for me began. I know guys like to fix things, but these kinds of things take time, especially when basic personality characteristics and the resultant engrained behaviors are involved. As I often say here, time reveals all truths Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 What's FC, carhill? If it means that giotto should be going to IC, I agree. This way, he can work on himself at the same time his wife is working on herself, so there's no emotion being diverted to a third party, who's enabling his inappropriate behaviour. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 FC = family counseling Four kids, all at differing impressionable ages, involved here. W evidently has history of depression, a disease which behaviors impact the children. I agree the OP should discontinue any inappropriate attachments/interactions with third parties and I think a counselor would agree. In his case, apparently no physical contact, so this tells me that his bank is very empty, in that he would derive such strong reactions to a distant, non-physical contact with someone he hasn't apparently seen in years. This is one dynamic I know pretty well. If he sincerely does want his M to work, that has to be the focus, above his old friend, above work, above everything. Even then, no guarantees. OP, just so you know, I failed following my own advice, preferring to embrace full disclosure (see my prior post here). I hope you do better Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 ok, I can see many of you see my involvement with a third party a negative thing and I understand that. But this involvement is no more that a support during a very tough time of my life. Having said that, I thought hard about what I'm getting from this online "attachment". I'm getting someone who can actually listen to me. Is it abnormal to seek reassurance after so many years of rejection? Maybe. I can only say that it's an alarm bell for me. Maybe I'm not being entirely honest with myself, but I'm going through a very tough time... Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Abnormal? Absolutely not. Inappropriate? Well, if your wife were getting "support" from another man, how would you feel about the marriage rebuilding process? If the friendship is disclosed and your wife has no issues with it, that's an answer There's lots of great support of a similar type from both men and women here on LS. Make use of us. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I think you should pull the trigger one way or another and decide to be in or out. After 23 years and already been in MC, you have plenty of evidence on which to base a decision and commit to a course of action. Neither alternative - divorce or reconnection - is possible in the "one foot in, one out" condition that you find yourself and you could easily waste another decade of both of your lives in this frozen state. Were it me, I'd decide and put all my effort into maximizing the reults of that decision for my family and myself... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Geishawhelk Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 mmm... it's difficult. I think we both know it's over, but as I said before, you cannot cancel a 23 year long relationship in one stroke and there are the children to be considered. I did. I had two girls, my ex- and I had been married 22 years and together 25. He and I both knew, 100% that the situation was completely unsalvageable. There was no physical relationship, and had not been for 15 years or so. (maybe 2 or 3 times in that period.....) The catalyst of my meeting someone else happened in August 2004. I knew I wanted out. By October, we had separated. It really was, that quick. The only thing stopping you doing this - is your fear. I offered her the chance to think about it and take action, but I'm pretty sure it won't come to nothing... I just know her too well. But I believe I should wait and give her a proper chance, even if I'm going through hell... I tend to be a bit impatient and that's one of my biggest faults, hence my post. I feel somewhat reluctant to impose a time limit... that would put pressure on her and she is not very good with pressure... Sounds to me like you keep drawing lines in the sand, and saying "OK, step over that one, then!" and she does, and then you draw another one, and say, "OK, step over that one, then!" and she does, and then you draw another one, and say, "OK, step over that one, then!" and she does, and then you draw another one, and say, "OK, step over that one, then!" and she does.... So, are you going stop..... when....?? Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Fear is a powerful motivator. Admitting fear is a powerful impetus to action. Most of my positive actions occurred after admitting fear in MC. Definitely be wary of those lines in the sand and the constant redrawing. It can become a lifestyle. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 thank you very much for your insights... to be brief, I don't really know if I can wait any longer. Counselling can take years and doesn't guarantee anything. In my heart I know it's over, but then, yes, there's the fear factor, of the unknown. Family is a very comfy cocoon... I will set a time limit to this and "disconnect" with the friend. One little worry for me: how can you set a time limit to something so untangible like self healing? Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 IMO, there is no predictable time, as each of us are different people and live different lives. I prefer to see timelines as cognitive milemarkers, where I decide to examine my progress, but not focus on them as goals, as in "gotta get this fixed by then". For me, that's too much pressure. Emotional and spiritual health isn't a business deadline Look at it this way. If you don't already realize it, you will realize that 50% of the failure in your relationship was/is you. You will carry that, and your psyche, forward into life and any future relationships you have. Take positive steps for yourself, to understand yourself better; to identify a healthy partner better; to relate better to that partner. Your wife is an independent individual. There is no reasonable way you can predict or control the path or outcome of her life. You can perhaps influence it in small ways if she is open to that influence. Accept that reality, and her, and give up any formula (your last post sounded like one) you have flying around in your head. There is no solution. There is no spoon. The only person you can bend is you Link to post Share on other sites
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