Ronni_W Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Yep, as you say. There are always individual people involved, which makes all 'generally common' experiences totally unique. maybe I could have done some things different as a husband Naturally. And maybe there are things you could do differently as an ex-husband. It does depend on personal preferences, fears, perceptions, etc. And maybe the things that you're not doing differently as an ex-husband also point to the things you could have done differently as a husband? But. That's your own thread, is it not? OneFootOut, I do understand your...feelings (mine were a loop of sadness, confusion, frustration, anger, self-preservation, etc.) Made me laugh about wishing he is gay -- I never thought about that, about my own ex. Link to post Share on other sites
peteyj Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Yep, as you say. There are always individual people involved, which makes all 'generally common' experiences totally unique. Naturally. And maybe there are things you could do differently as an ex-husband. It does depend on personal preferences, fears, perceptions, etc. And maybe the things that you're not doing differently as an ex-husband also point to the things you could have done differently as a husband? But. That's your own thread, is it not? OneFootOut, I do understand your...feelings (mine were a loop of sadness, confusion, frustration, anger, self-preservation, etc.) Made me laugh about wishing he is gay -- I never thought about that, about my own ex. It's a whole other thread in itself I guess. I'm really not doing anything differently now than when we were together. Except for I really don't care who she hangs out with or when she gets home and so on. The only real different now is that I go out with my friends and party more often. I didn't do that when we were married. It seems she wanted to go out and hook up with random men. But she still needs somebody to support her. AKA why she sort of has a bf but still dates other guys all the time. There honestly is nothing I would have done differently to save our marriage. I did many things to make a better future for both of us. I worked a lot because she rarely made $5K a year. I worked a lot because she also likes nice big expensive toys. Most of our arguments over the years revolved around money. Which eventually broke into me not spending enough time with her. Which eventually broke into her spending all the money in the bank for clothes so I needed to make more money. And that's how it went. So while I could have done things different, I really don't see how it ever was an option. If I did she would have left me a long time ago to be with somebody else who had more money than I. Cause this time around, while I did make good money, she did end our marriage to be with some guy who was a trust fund guy with no job, unlimited funds, who could spend all his time with her. I never had that luxury. Everything I had I earned along the way. Link to post Share on other sites
theBrokenMuse Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It's always struck me as odd that so many people have no clue that relationships and love require maintenance. It's like that they think after the wedding, they don't need to bother to give their partner the things that made their relationship work to begin with. What kind of madness is that? Link to post Share on other sites
husbndinthemaking Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It's always struck me as odd that so many people have no clue that relationships and love require maintenance. It's like that they think after the wedding, they don't need to bother to give their partner the things that made their relationship work to begin with. What kind of madness is that? It's called falling into the "comfort zone". We get used to the other person and start treating them like we do our family. Want to see what a person will be like a few years after marriage? Watch how they treat their immediate family members. That is how they will act with you in due time. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Well, as someone who's been staring at the freight train coming for a good long time, I'm happy to see the word "people" attached to "have no clue that relationships and love require maintenance". That reality is what kept me single for so many years, trying to find someone who agreed with that philosophy. OP, do you get the feeling that you're a house on fire and your husband is standing around saying "what is that peculiar warmth I feel?" That's a sign of disparate emotional setpoints. You're feeling overwhelmed and angry and hurt and he's going "huh?" IMO, the only way to bridge that gap is with professional help. Even then, results turn upon his sincere desire to keep you in his life and make enough changes to his setpoint so that he can recognize and process your communication and emotions. Link to post Share on other sites
theBrokenMuse Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 OP, do you get the feeling that you're a house on fire and your husband is standing around saying "what is that peculiar warmth I feel" More like I am a house on fire and my husband is shaking his head and saying, "Put yourself out, it's your problem not mine!" Link to post Share on other sites
theBrokenMuse Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It's called falling into the "comfort zone". We get used to the other person and start treating them like we do our family. Want to see what a person will be like a few years after marriage? Watch how they treat their immediate family members. That is how they will act with you in due time. I understand the family thing but I don't know, I do plenty of things for my family members too. It seems like it would be laziness and selfishness that's to blame for someone to stop doing the things they know makes their partner happy just because they've been together for a long time. Link to post Share on other sites
soserious1 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 My now ex husband and I had been living in a marriage that became totally sexless by his choice. After trying everything I could think of to fix things I had him served with divorce papers, he was not only shocked,he was ANGRY. He had it in his head that I'd continue to pay all the bills, be warm, loving and giving all the while continuing to sleep on the sofa. His line of thought? that at my age I should be on my knees, sobbing in gratitude that I had a husband, any husband at all. He couldn't believe that I'd actually have the stones to divorce him,despite having been told point blank that I would divorce him as I had no intentions of remaining chained to a sexless marriage for the rest of my life. I've come to the conclusion that the fact that he was so shocked simply speaks to the major disconnect that led up to the divorce in the 1st place. Let's face it,if we're filing for divorce our communications as a couple have been really poor or non-existant in many cases for a very long time. That this extends to how your spouse receives the news that it's over is hardly shocking when looked at in the bigger picture. Link to post Share on other sites
Ronni_W Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 results turn upon his sincere desire to keep you in his life and make enough changes to his setpoint so that he can recognize and process your communication and emotions. I agree with that and would add that, along with "sincere desire", there must also be an extremely courageous willingness to delve into own fears and unresolved wounds. Because I totally believe that my ex had the most "sincere desire" of any ex who has yet walked our planet . What he lacked was the strength to face his own "shadows and demons", which is where his most important changes (to satisfy MY needs and wants) needed to originate. Which is fair enough. I did finally get that he wasn't obligated to go where he didn't want to go (within) just because that is what I needed/wanted for MY marital happiness. And I got that I needed to temper my criticism and snide remarks about what I perceived as his 'stubborn & stupid' inability to change with some understanding and empathy for the fact that his fears far outweighed his sincere desire. OneFootOut, I honestly believe that most often, people woulda if they coulda. And, at the end, we have to do as carhill suggests -- realize the sacrifices (tough decisions) that we must make so as not to go down with the sinking ship. It's tough, though. One does not wish to leave the other to drown but if they are so afraid that they cannot even get themselves to the life-saving raft...it's impossible to help them climb into it. For me, it was about not feeling guilty for leaving that ship, AND forgiving myself for not doing enough to make that raft seem a safe and viable option, AND forgiving him for not having courage/strength enough to do what (I/the marriage) needed to be done. Because, clearly, HE did not need those changes...they would have been for me, basically, and his shadows and demons just made it impossible for him to do any differently than he did. (Which didn't mean that I was obligated to stay on that ship.) Best of luck. Link to post Share on other sites
stbx2007 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I've attended or visited divorce support groups at churches in my area. The guys usually act like they've been blindsided. After listening to this in silence I finally confronted one of them. He admitted that he didn't listen. She got tired of it and left. His main upset with her was that she had found someone else too. Another cue was that she moved while he was at work. This usually means she feared him. Its been over 3 years and he's still in support group. He still brags on what she didn't get. What she did get was away from him. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 More like I am a house on fire and my husband is shaking his head and saying, "Put yourself out, it's your problem not mine!" OP, TBH, I've had to force myself to have those days/moments. I've had to alter my setpoint to keep from being taken advantage of. Find a healthy path for yourself Link to post Share on other sites
stbx2007 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My now ex husband and I had been living in a marriage that became totally sexless by his choice. After trying everything I could think of to fix things I had him served with divorce papers, he was not only shocked,he was ANGRY. He had it in his head that I'd continue to pay all the bills, be warm, loving and giving all the while continuing to sleep on the sofa. His line of thought? that at my age I should be on my knees, sobbing in gratitude that I had a husband, any husband at all. He couldn't believe that I'd actually have the stones to divorce him,despite having been told point blank that I would divorce him as I had no intentions of remaining chained to a sexless marriage for the rest of my life. I've come to the conclusion that the fact that he was so shocked simply speaks to the major disconnect that led up to the divorce in the 1st place. Let's face it,if we're filing for divorce our communications as a couple have been really poor or non-existant in many cases for a very long time. That this extends to how your spouse receives the news that it's over is hardly shocking when looked at in the bigger picture. Yep. I agree. Even after I filed for divorce I've tried to communicate with him and he refuses. Oh, yeah, he also blames me for filing. I guess I was supposed to take his emotional (building up to physical) abuse forever. Its like he's pushing me off a cliff and blaming me for falling. If a man can't own up to at least 50% of what happens in his relationships, he's weak. Most of them are weak. Link to post Share on other sites
TrustInYourself Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Men don't listen. We suck at communicating emotions. We like to "fix", but only when there is a problem. We have pride and ego. We are human, so yeah in a sense we can be weak. We are not perfect knights in shining armor. We have our issues. But we have our good points too, lol. I think. I do at least, lol. Link to post Share on other sites
stbx2007 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Men don't listen. We suck at communicating emotions. We like to "fix", but only when there is a problem. We have pride and ego. We are human, so yeah in a sense we can be weak. We are not perfect knights in shining armor. We have our issues. But we have our good points too, lol. I think. I do at least, lol. I think we know enough not to expect you to be perfect knights in shining armor. All we're asking for is compromise. Meet us half way with all of this. Women have pride and ego too. Pride can be a vicious animal by the way. I don't know what the answer is but there certainly seems to be too much talk about how men just aren't wired to communicate. That is the biggest problem IMO. Get wired. Link to post Share on other sites
Virgo1982 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Well, as someone who's been staring at the freight train coming for a good long time, I'm happy to see the word "people" attached to "have no clue that relationships and love require maintenance". That reality is what kept me single for so many years, trying to find someone who agreed with that philosophy. OP, do you get the feeling that you're a house on fire and your husband is standing around saying "what is that peculiar warmth I feel?" That's a sign of disparate emotional setpoints. You're feeling overwhelmed and angry and hurt and he's going "huh?" IMO, the only way to bridge that gap is with professional help. Even then, results turn upon his sincere desire to keep you in his life and make enough changes to his setpoint so that he can recognize and process your communication and emotions. Carhill, I never say anything, but I read some of your posts and crack up! My goodness, you should have been a comedian. I'm dead serious... Link to post Share on other sites
Virgo1982 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Men don't listen. We suck at communicating emotions. We like to "fix", but only when there is a problem. We have pride and ego. We are human, so yeah in a sense we can be weak. We are not perfect knights in shining armor. We have our issues. But we have our good points too, lol. I think. I do at least, lol. Well, the problem is that you all are not seeing the lack of intimacy as a problem. Work toward understanding your partner as if a promotion depended on it. Treat your wife as you would treat your car. Tending to her emotions is like changing the oil. As for the OP, her husband hasn't changed the oil in 8 years. I don't know what kind of car can run without a regular oil change. So, this is an extreme case. The sheer fact that you are even considering anything is amazing to me. I would have conked out years ago. And maybe you are just sitting in the driveway, waiting for him to get his tools together and service your engine-At least make an effort to restore. In the end, I'll say you'd probably need a handy guy who appreciates you and is good with maintenance. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Carhill, I never say anything, but I read some of your posts and crack up! My goodness, you should have been a comedian. I'm dead serious... Well, I'll tell you exactly where it came from. I just got back from delivering some meds to the dementia facility and, as soon as I walked in the door, I heard yelling and immediately recognized the voice. I held the hand of a lady who approached me in a wheelchair and signed in and walked by the room where the yelling was and dropped off the meds. Now, you might wonder why someone would walk right by their own mother without stopping. You see, I dealt with that for years after she developed dementia (psychotic-type). It hurts to even think about it. The only way I could deal with it was to develop a somewhat odd sense of humor. That's what you read in my postings. So, as a man, I've seen it coming. All of it. There are days I wish I was wired more "normal". When I read the OP, it was like a mirror was held up. I felt and feel in my M exactly like she does. MC really helped me to communicate in language my wife can understand, instead of the language of emotion. I just feel sad if she, like I, loses her love and leaves. I hope she finds a different path Link to post Share on other sites
Author OneFootOut Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 So, as a man, I've seen it coming. All of it. There are days I wish I was wired more "normal". When I read the OP, it was like a mirror was held up. I felt and feel in my M exactly like she does. MC really helped me to communicate in language my wife can understand, instead of the language of emotion. I just feel sad if she, like I, loses her love and leaves. I hope she finds a different path Thank you for this carhill. If you read my current posting about the shocking truth of what is wrong with our marriage, you'll see that we've had a communication break through. The passion and spark have long been dead between us. I've been hanging on and struggling to fight for us for many long hurtful years, and now I have decided to give it at least 1 more. Ladies and gents.. COMMUNICATION is the most important thing that can break or save your marriage. Be HONEST and OPEN. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Honest and open in language which each can understand and process. I was speaking the wrong language for too long and, feeling ignored, my love died. I hope this does not happen to you. Once gone, it is exceedingly difficult to recapture and the loss can be and is contagious. Best wishes in your efforts Edited to add link to other thread with pertinent developments... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t179976/ Link to post Share on other sites
stillshocked Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 "They're totally NOT GETTING that it is THEIR OWN denying, and ignoring, and taking for granted, and being complacent, and hearing but not actually listening that is leading to their own shock and horror." I understand your point here, but don't women have some responsibility to make us listen? I mean, if I was unhappy and my wife didn't seem to be listening, I would force the subject (basically say listen, I need this or it is over) or insist on counselling. Either of those would have worked for me. My wife even refused counsellign when I suggested it. I just think that is something or someone is that important to you, that you do EVERYTHING you can to make them hear you before you walk away... Link to post Share on other sites
skinman Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I just think that is something or someone is that important to you, that you do EVERYTHING you can to make them hear you before you walk away... This was the opposite my wife... She kept everything inside never telling me how unhappy she was until the day she threw me out... She said she had shutdown yet we were having sex and everything seemed great... It really hurts to know after 15 years together she didnt care enough to tell me or even try........ Now she is with another man and I am left to pick up the pieces of my life...... But I will perservere !!! as Gunny would say "what one will abuse another can use" Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Quite simply most women are unpleasable. No matter how much a man listens during a marriage or tries to take care of her needs she will find some reason to be unhappy and some reason tp blame him for it all. Most men are shocked because for some reason they don't see this side of women. They believe the propoganda that women are always the victim and they figure that if they are a loving and faithful partner she will appreciate it when in reality these are the man that most often get left. Walkaway wives have little if anything to do with what a man does. He is barely even a factor. Many women just get to a point where they feel they need to shed their husband to go find themselves or because the marriage isn't the 24/7 fairytale that Oprah tells them it should be. Men just do whatever pleases us and a woman can take us or leave us. This attitude actually makes for more successful marriages. Link to post Share on other sites
reservoirdog1 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 If a guy truly "never saw it coming", that doesn't mean that he didn't know there were problems in the relationship. But it DOES mean that, whatever the problems were or however many problems there were, he didn't know that they were serious enough to potentially bring about the end of the relationship. That's the fundamental disconnect between men and women in a lot and, I suspect, most of these cases where the guy "never saw it coming". Women in those situations, it seems, usually expect that their partners would have just figured out that the problems were threatening the continuation of the relationship. Women often expect their partners to read their minds, to say the right thing in the right way at the right time, and if they don't, the women get upset. What seems intuitively obvious to women is often NOT obvious to men. Men, admittedly, can be kind of thick. We generally need it spelled out to us. We're problem solvers by nature. We don't function or respond at our best when called on to discuss feelings. Often we have no idea how to respond at all. On the other hand, come to us with a problem: "I'm not happy with how _____ works in our relationship, how can we fix that?" A guy is much more likely to work on the problem if he actually knows what the problem is, and how serious it is. So, I think it's a two-way street. Men need to stop assuming, quite so readily, that each problem is self-contained, because the more of those individual, self-contained issues that go unresolved, the more their partner's overall dissatisfaction and desire to the end the relationship will grow. And women need to come "out with it" more often and say "I don't like ____ about our relationship, it's putting our relationship at risk, let's talk about how we can fix it" rather than letting it get to the point of no return. My marriage went somewhat like that. XW had raised some issues during the seven years, but there were a lot that she never even brought up. She just became bitchier and bitchier. Initially, when the bomb dropped, she took the position that I "should have figured out that she was unhappy". (She later backtracked and admitted that she kept most things hidden away and never raised them, and by the time she did, it was too late and she wanted out.) So, if something's fundamentally bothering you, ladies, SPELL IT OUT. Who cares if you don't think you should have to because it's obvious to you and should be obvious to us. SPELL IT OUT. And if it's done early and clearly, maybe more relationships would survive. Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Walkaway wives have little if anything to do with what a man does. He is barely even a factor. Many women just get to a point where they feel they need to shed their husband to go find themselves or because the marriage isn't the 24/7 fairytale that Oprah tells them it should be. People of both genders will often just avoid a tricky situation than deal with it head on. It's not the most honourable way to behave, but few people live up to Loveshack ideals of how a decent person behaves. I know that, on a small scale, I've let people down like that on occasion. Not in the context of an actual relationship, but it's still not a good thing. It's far more serious in a long term relationship or a marriage, granted. The effects on the person left behind without answers must be devastating.... but I agree with you that it happens. That sometimes people would prefer to run than to face up to the extreme conflict involved in saying "this marriage isn't working." Men just do whatever pleases us and a woman can take us or leave us. When you adopt that stance, it's pointless to rail about someone walking away. It's not likely to work any better in a marriage than stonewalling would meet with success in a business negotiation. These tactics generally only get results when the person using them holds all the cards, and the other person has everything to lose. In most cases, people are either deluding themselves or bullsh*tting when they assume the position of "holding all the cards". Those are the cases where, when B decides to walk, A struggles with a mass of hurt, bitter feelings which they choose to project onto B rather than accepting some responsibility for the consequences of their entrenched "my way or the highway" stance. The OP said she's trying to communicate with her husband, but seems to be getting nowhere (edit, though things seem to be improving more recently, fingers crossed that that will continue). I think her opening post was partly a rant about men who fail to recognise or acknowledge the signs, and also a request for male advice about how she can communicate her feelings to him in a way he'll hear and understand. So that even if she does end up leaving the marriage, at least it won't come as a bolt out of the blue to him. Most of the men posting appear to have understood that, are acknowledging the efforts she's made - and attempting to give her advice as to how she might clarify things for her husband. That's what's meant by constructive advice. Given your feelings about the dishonourability of walkaway wives, combined with your apparent belief that other men shouldn't make compromises for the women in their lives, how would you suggest the OP address her current problem in an honourable manner? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 The OP is in a unique situation where her husband refuses to touch her or have sec with her. In many ways she is going through what many men go through so I don't think her situation is a of a typical walkaway wife. The typial walkaway wife is one who just resents the hell out of her husband no matter what he does and he is at loss as to how he can make her happy. Or it is a case of her smiling in his face while secretly hating his guys and somehow he is wrong becuse he failed to read her mind that she really hated his guts. The OP's situation could have been fixed with some attention and inimacy on his part. The typical walkaway wife situation can't be solved with all the love and attention in the world and she will only change her mind when he wants out more than she does. The OP seems like a logical and rational person while walkway wives do not know the meaning of the word rational. Link to post Share on other sites
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