To the WS's If the shoe were on the other foot.......

[Dexter Morgan]

Couldn't live with here for what she had done years ago?, couldn't live with her because she lied for so many years? or couldn't live with her because she was cheating again?

 

All of the above. Even if she wouldn't have been cheating again, I wouldn't have been happy being with her after the lies and what she did. To me, there is no statute of limitations for cheating.

[Owl]

So the bottom line for you is that there are simply somethings that you can never possibly forgive.

 

Cheating being at least one primary example, right?

[Reggie]

Forgiveness is not neccessary for healing. One gets to the point of accepting it happened and moving on. I see very few people that truly let this go. It is akin to having someone murder a loved one, IMO, truly one of the most hateful behaviors I have seen.

[Dexter Morgan]

So the bottom line for you is that there are simply somethings that you can never possibly forgive.

 

Cheating being at least one primary example, right?

 

Correct....

[Athena]

To me, there is no statute of limitations for cheating.

 

Regarding the above, I feel the same way, especially with a serial cheating spouse. My dear Mother-in-law, however, tells me that since I have let my H back into the marital bed, that I have Forgiven him (yet again). grr.

So, what now?, I have forgiven all because I continue to have sex with him? How about if I continued to cook for him? Or continued to speak to him? Where do you draw the line? I am still married to him, so if I wish to sleep with him, does that mean ALL is forgiven?

[Owl]

Forgiveness is not neccessary for healing. One gets to the point of accepting it happened and moving on. I see very few people that truly let this go. It is akin to having someone murder a loved one, IMO, truly one of the most hateful behaviors I have seen.

 

And here we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I believe that forgiveness is KEY to healing.

 

I'd also point out that the majority of those that post the more...angry...responses are also the ones that weren't able to forgive.

 

My thought is that this is a large part of why Dex, and even yourself Reggie respond so emotionally to threads on LS. And it's a large part of why you tend to focus more on berating the person rather than working with them to identify and solve the problems.

 

You still hurt...in a large part because you haven't forgiven. There's still the anger, bitterness, pain...that was never let go.

 

Yes...infidelity leaves SCARS. But for some...it looks more like open wounds that are infected and never healed into a scar.

 

Forgiveness is key to healing.

[michelangelo]

Owl, I'd like to expand on why the anger and unforgivness can occur.

 

It can happen when it forgiveness has been given too early, when the offense is still ongoing.

 

In my situation, my wife tried to convince me she made a one time mistake. A horrible thing for sure, but with marriage counseling and a renewed marriage (so I thought) I could forgive and move on.

 

HOWEVER

 

What was really going on is a deep dive into deception by my wife. she was still cheating and carried on her affair and the lies and deceit for many years. Then when she was done screwing the guy she still lied and deceived me about what went on.

 

So how does one forgive that? She, knowing how hard it is to put aside the hurt of a "small" infidelity, a one night thing, continues the offense even as she fakes repair and renewal?

 

The anger the Op expresses? The hurt? They are not put aside easily.

 

And in my own case, I just feel used and duped by someone who should have been there for me and should have stepped up tremendously to repair the damage she wrought. Instead, she piled it on.

 

How does one forgive that? And if one goes through that painful exercise, knowing it was pointless before, how do you work through that?

[Owl]

And that is a great point, Michelangelo.

 

If they CONTINUE the offense...then you're right...there's no way to forgive them.

 

Not taking the Christian stance on this, but using the same terms...forgiveness is dependent upon repentance.

 

Repenting means you regret your actions, and STOP them.

 

If you don't end that action...you can't be forgiven for it.

 

In your situation, you can't forgive her. You can't rebuild trust with her. And nothing can be done to reconcile things or to rebuild your marriage until she DOES truly repent, end the offense, and make an active change. THEN you have the opportunity to forgive her. But at the moment, you do not.

 

So in that case...you keep working on things for as long as YOU choose to do so...give her as many chances as YOU feel you're willing to give...and when you've reached your end point...you end your relationship with her.

 

Really good question.

[Dexter Morgan]

My thought is that this is a large part of why Dex, and even yourself Reggie respond so emotionally to threads on LS. And it's a large part of why you tend to focus more on berating the person rather than working with them to identify and solve the problems.

 

Probably thats because those that are responded to in such a manner are the ones where a solution isn't desired or the "problem" is they want to continue to BE the problem to get what they want at someone elses expense.

[lostsoulmate]

Probably thats because those that are responded to in such a manner are the ones where a solution isn't desired or the "problem" is they want to continue to BE the problem to get what they want at someone elses expense.

 

Not in my case, but still you chastised me (more than once). I have established no contact with the OM. I have been trying to work things out with my SO.

 

Don't tell me... your problem with me (and those like me) is that I will not tell my SO of the cheating.

 

Dealing with the problems that lead "us" to where we are is what we are focusing on.

[Chrome Barracuda]

Not in my case, but still you chastised me (more than once). I have established no contact with the OM. I have been trying to work things out with my SO.

 

Don't tell me... your problem with me (and those like me) is that I will not tell my SO of the cheating.

 

Dealing with the problems that lead "us" to where we are is what we are focusing on.

 

...If the SO doesnt know about you cheating half of the problem will never be resolved. Your tricking him into a false sense of security by not telling him the whole truth. The real reason you dont want to tell is that you still want control over how he will feel about you. If he knew the whole truth, right now. I'd say he'd be less than pleased.

 

Think about it...

[Athena]

The real reason you dont want to tell is that you still want control over how he will feel about you.

 

This is well put

[Reggie]

And that is a great point, Michelangelo.

 

If they CONTINUE the offense...then you're right...there's no way to forgive them.

 

Not taking the Christian stance on this, but using the same terms...forgiveness is dependent upon repentance.

 

Repenting means you regret your actions, and STOP them.

 

If you don't end that action...you can't be forgiven for it.

 

In your situation, you can't forgive her. You can't rebuild trust with her. And nothing can be done to reconcile things or to rebuild your marriage until she DOES truly repent, end the offense, and make an active change. THEN you have the opportunity to forgive her. But at the moment, you do not.

 

So in that case...you keep working on things for as long as YOU choose to do so...give her as many chances as YOU feel you're willing to give...and when you've reached your end point...you end your relationship with her.

 

Really good question.[/quotOwl, I cannot agree with this. Janis Abam Spring does a nice job of explaining the acceptance vs forgiveness distinction in her biik, "How Can I Forgive You". Her premise, which rings true to me is that forgiveness requires expressions of true remorse and an acknowledgement of the pain the betrayer caused. For many of us, this was never forthcoming. It may be semantics, but I cannot fathom forgiving someone who has never requested forgiveness. Rather,I have learned to accept that my XW is personality disordered and there was nothing I could do about it.

Many of the WS's that come to this site seek a way to continue their marriages without ever confessing, continuing to decieve their spouses.

I have consistently given encouragement to those that are willing to take responsibility, make ammends and do the work to fix the relationship they broke.

Like Dex, I se the greatest % of the WSs plotting to continue the subterfuge, never telling the BS what has happened, exposing them to STD and trying to sweep this stuff under the rug with no consequences.

The cliche's about forgiveness being essential to move on just are not true. How many crime victims move on despite no remorse. I have seen many do so. What about holocaust survivors? Did they have to frogive to live happy , productive lives despite the scars. No.

[lostsoulmate]

The real reason you dont want to tell is that you still want control over how he will feel about you. If he knew the whole truth, right now. I'd say he'd be less than pleased.

 

He is less than pleased that I am not happy in our relationship. He says if he is happy I should be happy.

 

How do I even begin to understand logic like that?

[Owl]

Not in my case, but still you chastised me (more than once). I have established no contact with the OM. I have been trying to work things out with my SO.

 

Don't tell me... your problem with me (and those like me) is that I will not tell my SO of the cheating.

 

Dealing with the problems that lead "us" to where we are is what we are focusing on.

 

But...you're "where" you are BECAUSE of your affair.

 

Ergo, to focus on those problems should INCLUDE focusing on the affair as well.

 

If you're trying to deal with fixing the "other problems" without addressing the affair, it's like trying to treat someone with a dangerously high fever by only administering antibiotics to treat the infection, and doing nothing to address the fever.

 

The patient will die from the symptoms (the fever) long before the treatment for the "cause"(the infection) is dealt with.

 

Treat the GREATEST issue in your marriage first...and whether or not your spouse knows it...the affair will ALWAYS be the greatest issue, unless there is some type of physical abuse going on that would supercede it.

 

Anything less is just conflict avoidance. It's just avoiding the REAL issue at hand because you don't want to deal with the conflict that you know it will generate...even if that is the only way your marriage could possibly recover.

[Owl]

I cannot agree with this. Janis Abam Spring does a nice job of explaining the acceptance vs forgiveness distinction in her biik, "How Can I Forgive You". Her premise, which rings true to me is that forgiveness requires expressions of true remorse and an acknowledgement of the pain the betrayer caused. For many of us, this was never forthcoming. It may be semantics, but I cannot fathom forgiving someone who has never requested forgiveness. Rather,I have learned to accept that my XW is personality disordered and there was nothing I could do about it.

Many of the WS's that come to this site seek a way to continue their marriages without ever confessing, continuing to decieve their spouses.

I have consistently given encouragement to those that are willing to take responsibility, make ammends and do the work to fix the relationship they broke.

Like Dex, I se the greatest % of the WSs plotting to continue the subterfuge, never telling the BS what has happened, exposing them to STD and trying to sweep this stuff under the rug with no consequences.

The cliche's about forgiveness being essential to move on just are not true. How many crime victims move on despite no remorse. I have seen many do so. What about holocaust survivors? Did they have to frogive to live happy , productive lives despite the scars. No.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I look at many posts on these threads and I don't see them coming from someone who's healed...I see them coming from someone who's STILL suffering, STILL in pain. And still lashing out at those that are similar to the ones that hurt them.

[Reggie]

Not in my case, but still you chastised me (more than once). I have established no contact with the OM. I have been trying to work things out with my SO.

 

Don't tell me... your problem with me (and those like me) is that I will not tell my SO of the cheating.

 

Dealing with the problems that lead "us" to where we are is what we are focusing on.

 

This rings untrue to me. How can you deal with the problems, cheating among them, without disclosing them? The problems are not what led you to cheat. We all deal with issues and dissatisfaction in our relationships at times. Not everyone resorts to abuse, like cheating.

How can you expect to work on your marriage when you have this problem with honesty and do not want to deal with it, sclaiming that problems caused you to cheat?

[Reggie]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I look at many posts on these threads and I don't see them coming from someone who's healed...I see them coming from someone who's STILL suffering, STILL in pain. And still lashing out at those that are similar to the ones that hurt them.

 

It takes time, Owl, but it happens. It is not like flipping a switch and, suddenly, onne is past it. Most experts say the time frame is 2-5 years, and that is when the WS is remorseful and does the work.

You've not expierienced the non-remoseful, continued lying situation, have you? So, it's a process and takes time.

[Dexter Morgan]

Not in my case, but still you chastised me (more than once). I have established no contact with the OM. I have been trying to work things out with my SO.

 

Don't tell me... your problem with me (and those like me) is that I will not tell my SO of the cheating.

 

Yup...and thats just what I speak of. You want to keep your SO in the dark, which is basically a lie. What a relationship to be in when your SO craps on you and wants to keep one in the dark because the information would come in handy in deciding how to live their lives.

 

 

Dealing with the problems that lead "us" to where we are is what we are focusing on.

 

 

Ya, while keeping secrets and lies from your SO. But out of convenience for yourself, you pick and choose that information which YOU feel your SO has a right to know.

[Dexter Morgan]

...If the SO doesnt know about you cheating half of the problem will never be resolved.

 

EXACTLY!!

 

 

Your tricking him into a false sense of security by not telling him the whole truth.

 

Well said

 

 

The real reason you dont want to tell is that you still want control over how he will feel about you.

 

Damn....spot on.

 

 

If he knew the whole truth, right now. I'd say he'd be less than pleased.

 

yes, and for her own selfish reasons...she'll keep him in the dark.

[Owl]

Initially, I did indeed experience the same thing.

 

She had no remorse for what she had done (she'd say she was sorry I got hurt, but didn't regret her choices)...she continued to lie about aspects for the affair for as much as a year after d-day.

 

I don't know of anyone who's NOT had that kind of experience with their WS...it's all part of the "standard script".

 

It's only after time that they truly "get it". No WS "gets it" right away after d-day. Some may THINK they do...but I've yet to meet one.

 

Recovering a marriage is a PROCESS...it requires a lot of work and effort...and in the vast majority of cases, the initial load of that effort has to be done on the BS's shoulders...as unfair as that is.

 

Only once the WS starts to get out of the "affair fog" do they BEGIN to shoulder their portion of the load...and typically don't take on the lion's share for a year or more after d-day.

 

So I dealt with the same reactions from my (then) WS that most have...

 

And I agree with those timeframes too...even with nearly everything going to script in my own situation, I didn't start to consider our situation "recovered" until sometime after the two year mark.

 

And yes...it takes time. It's not the "flip of a switch". But it also takes ACTIVE EFFORT TO HEAL YOURSELF as well. Not simply reacting to whatever impulse you have at the time...not lashing out at anyone who resembles your WS. Nope...you get there by deciding NOT to do those things. By looking at things with an open eye, and using empathy to see the pain that OTHERS are feeling, rather than focus solely on your own.

 

Been there, my friend. Go back and read my posts over on the OW/OM forums from back in 04 and 05.

[Reggie]

Yes, I have no doubt you expierienced it for a time, but not long term, OWl. And, I would be willing to bet that your healing was accelerated by getting the truth and remorse.

It is just unrealistic to expect folks that have never, ever received remorse or the truth to heal as fast or the same way you had the opportunity to do.

I agree, everyone gets some of the fog stuff for a time. But, it is different in the walk away, never admit or apologize situation. The difference is immense.

You've walked a football field, not a mile in those shoes.

[NoIDidn't]

What if he never cheated in the first place? You think he'd forgive you then?

 

 

Its so hard posting with/to you as you keep trying to control the conversation by changing the goal posts.

 

Your question was concerning a person that already cheated. The *not* cheated option is NOT available.

 

Can you stick to your own rules? LoL. <shakes head at Dex>

 

If he hadn't cheated, I'd not be here posting on this or any other forum related to infidelity. If he hadn't cheated and I did, I have no idea of what he would do. But considering he did, I am pretty sure that given his own mistake and how easily he did it out of his own brokenness, that he would be more inclined to forgive me.

 

But, I'm not interested in cheating per the reasons I stated earlier in the thread: our kids that we both love and want to model the best for.

 

Note my reason if I did take him up on his offer was not a tit for tat. And I have to add another reason too: I don't want a divorce and so I would feel bad using another person for my selfish ends. I'm no saint, but I don't like the thought of using another if they're thinking the R has a real chance if only I weren't married - or some other dinky reason people give for staying in affairs.

[Owl]

So, am I hearing you tell me Reggie that "since you've never been there, you have no idea what we're REALLY dealing with"?

 

I've heard that many times before...but honestly, never from a BS!

 

I get that it's not 'switching off the light'.

 

Perhaps instead of telling me that I can't see where you're coming from because I healed faster due to my circumstances, you could consider my advice as useful to you since I'm looking back at WHAT/HOW I managed to heal? It's not that I don't have a frame of refrence to your situation...not at all...it's that I'm looking at it from further down the road, and suggesting to you what I've seen could help you heal?

 

Isn't that basically what "wisdom" is...knowledge gained through experience?

 

Or are you telling me that my experiences haven't been bitter enough to have learned from?

[michelangelo]

But...you're "where" you are BECAUSE of your affair.

 

Ergo, to focus on those problems should INCLUDE focusing on the affair as well.

 

If you're trying to deal with fixing the "other problems" without addressing the affair, it's like trying to treat someone with a dangerously high fever by only administering antibiotics to treat the infection, and doing nothing to address the fever.

 

The patient will die from the symptoms (the fever) long before the treatment for the "cause"(the infection) is dealt with.

 

Treat the GREATEST issue in your marriage first...and whether or not your spouse knows it...the affair will ALWAYS be the greatest issue, unless there is some type of physical abuse going on that would supercede it.

 

Anything less is just conflict avoidance. It's just avoiding the REAL issue at hand because you don't want to deal with the conflict that you know it will generate...even if that is the only way your marriage could possibly recover.

 

Exactly.

 

Conflict avoidance combined with telling oneself stories about the situation, thus making a bad course of action palatable.