Terrorists are not bad people

[Mahatma]

So in my personal discussions with people regarding religion, I usually bring up this thought I have always wondered about. I would like to see if anyone here can add any insight to it, or possibly logically dismiss it entirely?

 

For the purpose of this topic the word "terrorist" will refer to little guys in terrorism, such as the suicide bomber. I do not mean the leaders, because I believe they know they are controlling people to do detrimental acts.

 

I have always felt that someone born into the nation of Islam and is surrounded by that culture, is not going to convert to Christianity for a number of reasons. If not death, ostracization from their community, as well as other punishments are deterrents. Also, take into consideration the idea of a Muslim coming to you and trying to get you to convert from your western religion to their's. Chances are, you will not because it would be such a drastic change from all you know.

 

In this belief, which I only explained shortly to give you an idea of it, I decided that these people should not be punished by a "god" should they have chosen the wrong religion. I have had this talk with many Christians and have had many answers explaining what happens to these people and why. The answers on their demise was fairly evenly split down the middle between hell and heaven, usually depending on whether or not they were "introduced" to Christianity.

 

So, on a basis similar to my defense of these types of people, I will now focus on the terrorist. No longer does their religion need to come into play. Most people envision a brown middle eastern male, but for the sake of this argument, try to leave their religion and color out of the equation.

 

If a person is born, and submersed into a culture that educates them about how and why the Western nations are evil, they will begin to believe this. Then they are taught that being a suicide bomber will make them a martyr and get them forty virgins in the afterlife. If that person is then told that their family will be supported financially by the government they will begin to consider the idea. Their culture, family, and personal beliefs all suggest that doing something like a suicide bombing is beneficial to everyone, including humanity. If not suicide, at least bombing and killing Westerners is a good thing for everyone. This person has nothing bad on their conscious. They really do think they are doing the "right" thing.

 

I do not think a terrorist like this, who is filled with propaganda, is a bad person and should be punished in eternity. I actually see this person not being punished in any way at all.

 

In many religions, people are rewarded, even in current life for thinking and doing "pure" things.

 

According to Buddhism, Karma involves your thoughts and how pure they are. A terrorist is thinking the purest of thoughts when he is going to give himself to the cause. By this, he should be experiencing a Karma that is good. If I was to contemplate killing people and myself, my Karma would be much different.

 

Or would it?

 

What about actually killing people? I believe killing anyone is bad, and if I was contemplating it, I would consider those thoughts evil and bad. If a terrorist is contemplating slaughtering 50 Westerners, he is thinking good thoughts because he is purifying the world and doing what his beliefs consider to be good.

 

Does a god or whatever else take this into consideration?

 

Do you?

 

I do not think I can truly fully encompass this sort of belief on a message board, and hopefully some people can grasp what I am trying to point out here. It is not the thought itself that is bad, it is the meaning you actually put to it. Because of the variety of cultures in existence, different values of good or bad are placed on any given thought or action.

[headlesschicken]

they're doing what they think is right, what they've been taught. which in a way makes them courageous.

 

i get it.

[Trialbyfire]

Regardless of culture and values, deliberately killing civilians crosses the line from sanity to insanity. I doubt the Qur'an teaches Islamists that it's okay to deliberately venture into non-military zones and kill unarmed civilians AND children.

[Mahatma]

Regardless of culture and values, deliberately killing civilians crosses the line from sanity to insanity. I doubt the Qur'an teaches Islamists that it's okay to deliberately venture into non-military zones and kill unarmed civilians AND children.

 

Muslims vehemently separate themselves from extremists. No the Qur'an does not teach this, but terrorist leaders do. The people who are taught this firmly believe it.

[grogster]

I don't believe in "God", M, anyone's god. I could give a rat's ass about a killer zealot's motives--pure, impure, mixed--or his/her belief system.

 

As for punishment, I'll happily administer it here on earth with a bullet to the brain so that these courageous, pure, karmicly correct killers can get to heaven and enjoy their 40 virgins.

 

I always aim to oblige.

[Trialbyfire]

Muslims vehemently separate themselves from extremists. No the Qur'an does not teach this, but terrorist leaders do. The people who are taught this firmly believe it.

You're assuming that people have no brains, mass media or Internet access. Sure, some are brainwashed since they don't know any better but the vast majority are extremists due to personal leanings towards this type of violence.

 

If they want to blow themselves up in the middle of an empty field in protest, they're welcome to do so. I won't watch though.

 

The minute they wander into non-military zones to kill civilians, this is insanity dictating their actions. An adult can freely think, albeit in other jurisdictions, potentially can't express their thoughts.

[Green]

Some christians believe you will go to hell if you don't allow yourself to be saved by jesus that is just their religion. Wether a terrorist is a bad person or not is actualy semantics when you get straight down to the point that they are dangerouse and want to kill me or cut my head off on web cam. Its like a bad dog that can never be addopted because it might bite your face off. Once a person has made the decision to kill mame and destroy it doesn't matter how pure you may think they are they need to be stopped.

[taiko]

You're assuming that people have no brains, mass media or Internet access. Sure, some are brainwashed since they don't know any better but the vast majority are extremists due to personal leanings towards this type of violence.

 

If they want to blow themselves up in the middle of an empty field in protest, they're welcome to do so. I won't watch though.

 

The minute they wander into non-military zones to kill civilians, this is insanity dictating their actions. An adult can freely think, albeit in other jurisdictions, potentially can't express their thoughts.

 

Even if they study there are something like 30,000 different subgroups of Judism, Christianity and Islam. Almost all of them claim that while others are almost there only they have the fullness of the Truth. The terrorist who does attack the civilian believe with his heart that God said it was okay to do so against enemy X and that the others who interpret the Bible or the Quron are lacking the full truth.

[Trialbyfire]

Even if they study there are something like 30,000 different subgroups of Judism, Christianity and Islam. Almost all of them claim that while others are almost there only they have the fullness of the Truth. The terrorist who does attack the civilian believe with his heart that God said it was okay to do so against enemy X and that the others who interpret the Bible or the Quron are lacking the full truth.

Ask any sane Christian, Jew or Islamist, if it's okay to kill civilians and children.

[grogster]

Even if they study there are something like 30,000 different subgroups of Judism, Christianity and Islam. Almost all of them claim that while others are almost there only they have the fullness of the Truth. The terrorist who does attack the civilian believe with his heart that God said it was okay to do so against enemy X and that the others who interpret the Bible or the Quron are lacking the full truth.

 

Throughout history, how many people have been sacrificed on some group's "Altar of Truth"?

 

The Truth, however defined-- the State, the People, Jesus, the Church, Allah-- is an abstraction. While abstractions don't kill, people kill and maim in the name of these abstractions.

 

If I had one wish, it would be to eliminate all who would kill innocents in the name of some Cause, Religion, Party, etc., in the name of Truth.

[Mahatma]

As for punishment, I'll happily administer it here on earth with a bullet to the brain so that these courageous, pure, karmicly correct killers can get to heaven and enjoy their 40 virgins.

 

Ask a terrorist and they'd happily administer a bullet into your head for your "out of whack" beliefs.

 

 

 

Ask any sane Christian, Jew or Islamist, if it's okay to kill civilians and children.

 

Then ask a brainwashed terrorist. He'll say it is ok. He believes he is not doing wrong. He believes he is a good person. He actually thinks he is doing good. Why should he be punished?

 

 

And finally, killing these people is not the answer. You can not kill an idea.

[Trialbyfire]

Then ask a brainwashed terrorist. He'll say it is ok. He believes he is not doing wrong. He believes he is a good person. He actually thinks he is doing good. Why should he be punished?

Hence the insanity component.

[quankanne]

If I had one wish, it would be to eliminate all who would kill innocents in the name of some Cause, Religion, Party, etc., in the name of Truth.

 

... or beat them with a stick until they get it straight in their pea-brains that killing just isn't cool. Or smart. Because whether you claim religion or not, surely you understand that taking another life goes against moral and societal beliefs!

[grogster]

If I had one wish, it would be to eliminate all who would kill innocents in the name of some Cause, Religion, Party, etc., in the name of Truth.

 

... or beat them with a stick until they get it straight in their pea-brains that killing just isn't cool. Or smart. Because whether you claim religion or not, surely you understand that taking another life goes against moral and societal beliefs!

 

One would think, quankanne. But, according to the OP, it is your beliefs that are "out of whack."

 

The OP is taking the "blame the victim, whitewash the executioner" game to bold new levels.

 

If my motives are pure, my beliefs strong, then I possess a license to kill, maim and torture.

 

What an inverted moral universe, the OP inhabits.

 

Or perhaps we're simply culturally insensitive.

[wuggle]

Hence the insanity component.

 

One of the classic justifications for many terrorist acts is that they did it to directly or indirectly protect thier families, friends etc. For example a terrorist may blow up several innocent civilians and justify this by saying that if it stops the people that they consider to be the agressor from killing, maiming, raping or just generally oppressing thier family or friends then it is worth it. Likewise military under the control of most governments have to make similar decisions every day, weighing up collateral damage. Is the life of one innocent person being held hostage worth the justice metered out to the hostage takers ??

 

IMO, labelling these issues as 'Insane' seems a bit dismissive and ill thought out.

[Moose]

(in my opinion) is an innate, God given characteristic in all humans, (and I would beg that even most "domestic" animals share that characteristic). It doesn't matter what culture you were raised in, or subscribe to.

 

Heck, even when my rat terrior kills a chicken, duck or goose and I find it....if she's in eye shot she'll turn away from me to avoid eye contact with tail tucked under because she knows what she did was wrong.

 

Life is around us everywhere, and most of it is "good". How can anyone destroy that which was given to us unless that person(s) is convinced out of his or her own gain? That's complete selfishness...

 

To me, yes, I think these terrorists should be punished and judged accordingly, and my belief says that's exactly what will take place.

[wuggle]

Heck, even when my rat terrior kills a chicken, duck or goose and I find it....if she's in eye shot she'll turn away from me to avoid eye contact with tail tucked under because she knows what she did was wrong.

 

Sorry but I disagree with you on that, I really don't think you can apply concepts of right\wrong to your dog. She probably looks guilty because you have in the past berated her and she simply remembers this. It is definitely in a dogs nature to kill foul and eat it. I definitly wouldn't 'blame' my cat when she kills a 'moose'.

[quankanne]

well, I personally think whapping someone with a stick ... or smashing a cast-iron skillet on their knuckles is a much more suitable way of dealing with those who disagree with me/my beliefs than killing them dead, because then where is there room for growth?

[Trimmer]

Muslims vehemently separate themselves from extremists. No the Qur'an does not teach this, but terrorist leaders do. The people who are taught this firmly believe it.

So how does it factor into your good person/bad person spectum to consider that the terrorist "little guy" has forsaken the true word and teachings of his god for the teachings of a man? Isn't that sort of idolatry, shall we say, "frowned upon" in most religions? So even within his own religion, doesn't that push the terrorist little guy pretty far toward the "bad" side?

 

Does "only following orders" relieve you of personal responsibility and cleanse your moral slate with regard to atrocities you commit against humanity?

[Woggle]

Killing innocent people is wrong but the US government is just as much of a terrorist organization as Al Queda is.

[quankanne]

all governments are, when you think about it ...

[Mahatma]

Hence the insanity component.

No. They are not mentally insane. Just because someone does not have the same set of beliefs of you does not make them insane, no matter how radical.

 

They view you as insane too.

 

Heck, even when my rat terrior kills a chicken, duck or goose and I find it....if she's in eye shot she'll turn away from me to avoid eye contact with tail tucked under because she knows what she did was wrong.

 

Your dog acts that way because of the look you give it. The dog senses how you felt. There are plenty of dogs that people use to hunt and they do not frown upon their dogs when the dog kills something, nor does the dog feel it did anything wrong.

 

Did it do something wrong though? In my opinion, hunting is wrong and should not be done for sport. If I shot a bird with a rifle, I would feel bad. I have friends that hunt, and they see nothing wrong with hunting for fun. Who is right?

 

Does "only following orders" relieve you of personal responsibility and cleanse your moral slate with regard to atrocities you commit against humanity?

 

They are not just "following orders." They are following their beliefs.

 

You have been brought up and taught that killing is wrong. They have been brought up and taught that killing westernized people is right and needed.

[taiko]

So how does it factor into your good person/bad person spectum to consider that the terrorist "little guy" has forsaken the true word and teachings of his god for the teachings of a man? Isn't that sort of idolatry, shall we say, "frowned upon" in most religions? So even within his own religion, doesn't that push the terrorist little guy pretty far toward the "bad" side?

 

Does "only following orders" relieve you of personal responsibility and cleanse your moral slate with regard to atrocities you commit against humanity?

Consider, the guy who becomes the suicide bomber believes he has received God's true word. It is you who is pushing the man corrupted version. If we all agreed there would be no religious differences between us. There would be one world faith or lack of faith like on Star Trek were aliens come from homogeneous societies and only the humans have people of different political, social, religious caste, groups, parties etc.

[theBrokenMuse]

No. They are not mentally insane. Just because someone does not have the same set of beliefs of you does not make them insane, no matter how radical.

 

Actually, two points here. Many 'suicide bombers' aren't doing so entirely for religious aspects. In fact I'd say it mostly political. The Koran is just a good tool for helping to drive the point home and justify these actions.

 

It's not that hard to understand why people who grow up in a war torn place like the Gaza strip become numbed to violence and filled with hatred of those they see as their enemy. There have been documentaries done in which you can see young children talking about wanting to become suicide bombers to get back at the Jews who killed their friends, siblings or parents. Revenge and trying to regain a sense of lost power isn't outright insanity. It is rage, despair and desperation.

 

However those that do this entirely for religious purposes are suffering from hyperreligiosity and as such are not well mentally. In ether case, what *the religious terrorists* think of those outside of their delusional mindset is a mute point. We have no need to cater to the mentally imbalanced that are a threat to all of society regardless of their toxic belief systems.

 

You have been brought up and taught that killing is wrong. They have been brought up and taught that killing westernized people is right and needed.

 

Actually no one had to tell me that killing is wrong and I bet that no one had to tell you in order for you to figure that out too. Most people (outside of the sociopathic personality types) have an innate sense of morality when it comes to certain things. Killing happens to be one of them.

 

I don't see why you think that because some religious zealots have been injected with enough vitriol and hatred to dehumanize fellow human beings that they should get a free pass simply because they acted (or tried to act) on their convictions. Are people not responsible for their own actions now simply because they were swayed to action over a belief?

[Eve]

I agreed with what Trimmer said.

 

I would say that the given situation is a form of idolatry and would fall under the faiths view of dissension from God.

 

I suppose the scenario could work only work within a buddist framework because faith in God is generally regarded as the escape from karmic endowerments/debt.

 

Within the faith, I am sure you know that Muslim terrorist bombers are seen in the same light as those who believe in the imperialist version of Christanity and even the sociopathic natures of those who are hardcore atheists..

 

Extremes are always.. well extreme versions of everything not good about HUMAN nature. I dont question Gods nature nowadays.. but I can see why you would ask the question.

 

Overall, I find it difficult to fathom that even a suicide bomber would not have any other influence to base his actions on. Especially as many Muslims can recite their text. So other than being brainwashed or just a hateful person, I dont know how anyone could do something so horrid. Although, the Bible does warn that we must be aware of 'powers and principalities'. To me that means that people will get caught up in political agendas which then become framed as 'faith'.. but really it is not because there is no relationship with God.

 

I am certain that God will forgive children who are forced to take up arms within wars.. I dont know about the rest and would not be quick to judge them but equally would not be quick to aquit them either.

 

Regards,

Eve xx