FleshNBones Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Your position just seems like moral nihilism (you might say relativism, but I don't see a lot of difference). Your statement at its core is that someone who does bad things and thinks they're good can be a good person, even though they have a flaw that anyone outside their mindset can observe. Is there such a thing as a bad person then? And if not, can there be such a thing as a good person?It is all about the suspension of judgment to clear the path for hedonism. Maybe a better and more acceptable scenario would be the kleptomaniac. This is someone who steals, and enjoys doing it, but sees nothing wrong with the act. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 It is all about the suspension of judgment to clear the path for hedonism. Maybe a better and more acceptable scenario would be the kleptomaniac. This is someone who steals, and enjoys doing it, but sees nothing wrong with the act. There should not have to be a more "acceptable" scenario. If anyone could sit here and say a kleptomaniac could possibly not be a bad person because they do not think they are doing anything wrong, then they would have some explaining to do when they would say someone who kills people, and thinks it is right, is wrong. The entire point of this thread was to question people about whether or not someone should be punished for doing something YOU view as wrong, but they do not. Link to post Share on other sites
grogster Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 The entire point of this thread was to question people about whether or not someone should be punished for doing something YOU view as wrong, but they do not. So if I kill you because I sincerely believe that apologists for Islamist terrorism are no better than the terrorists themselves, and thus deserve to die, I'm not a bad person and a should not be punished for my actions. I don't view your murder as wrong, although you and your loved ones may be of a different mind. Sophism is alive and well at the Shack. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Terrorism is wrong but we need to be more consistent and less hypocritical about condemning violence. To me dropping bombs on neighborhood from the safety of a plane or launching cruise missiles from the ocean are just as horrible as blowing yourself up in a bus station but one is condemned by the world while the other one gets medals. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 So if I kill you because I sincerely believe that apologists for Islamist terrorism are no better than the terrorists themselves, and thus deserve to die, I'm not a bad person and a should not be punished for my actions. I don't view your murder as wrong, although you and your loved ones may be of a different mind. Sophism is alive and well at the Shack. If you killed me because you truly and purely believed it was needed, I do not think you should be faulted. You should be taught differently, but not punished. Terrorism is wrong but we need to be more consistent and less hypocritical about condemning violence. To me dropping bombs on neighborhood from the safety of a plane or launching cruise missiles from the ocean are just as horrible as blowing yourself up in a bus station but one is condemned by the world while the other one gets medals. truth Link to post Share on other sites
headlesschicken Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 if we start questioning the motives behind every killing, whether the killer thought that their reasons were "good enough" well we're starting down a nasty path. anyone can justify their actions, however fuct up they are. thus, the reason that ANY killing is punished. it's not up to the murderer to decide if it's "okay." Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 If you killed me because you truly and purely believed it was needed, I do not think you should be faulted. You should be taught differently, but not punished. truth If you start from your premise that if someone has sincere motive it makes an evil act acceptable, how would slavery or segregation ever have been abolished? The societies who did those things thought it was right. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 The entire point of this thread was to question people about whether or not someone should be punished for doing something YOU view as wrong, but they do not. The fact is that the onus is not on whether the person thinks the act is wrong or not - thats why we have a judicial system. Innocent until proved guilty is pretty fair enough! Therefore they can explain themselves but really that is the only right and this must be fairly disproved. This is why we have to make sure that Church and state are seperate so that a person cannot plead that their religion made them do .. whatever. Killing is killing. In fact sometimes it makes me sick to hear some of the crap people come out with for their reasons for murder. .. In this light I must admit that I do see a pretty efficient command within some of the punishments Islamic countries have.. you dont see paedophiles rushing to live in those countries! Whereas in the UK and the USA paedophiles are getting away with a living form of murder. Please dont say that they should not be punished too.. after all paedophiles do see themselves as 'lovers of children' Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 .. At the same time I am must highlight that many of our laws are founded on Christian principles. I wonder what the the punishment is for suicide bombers in Islamic countries? I bet it is way harsher than any sentence they would get in the UK or USA.. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
FleshNBones Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I wonder what the the punishment is for suicide bombers in Islamic countries? I bet it is way harsher than any sentence they would get in the UK or USA..Do you remember the guys locked away at Gitmo? They would be put to death if they were sent back to their home countries. Put them with our prisoners, and they will get killed. Link to post Share on other sites
FleshNBones Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you killed me because you truly and purely believed it was needed, I do not think you should be faulted. You should be taught differently, but not punished.You really think these people can be reformed. I don't think so. Link to post Share on other sites
headlesschicken Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I wonder what the the punishment is for suicide bombers in Islamic countries? I bet it is way harsher than any sentence they would get in the UK or USA.. i think that's a moot point, as suicide bombers who complete their mission are already dead and immune to human law and order. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 i think that's a moot point, as suicide bombers who complete their mission are already dead and immune to human law and order. Sorry, I meant those who had been intercepted. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 You really think these people can be reformed. I don't think so. If not, I understand the *best* scenario may be to lock them up. However, how can you fault someone who is not sane? About the pedophiles, these people are not sane. There is something wrong with these people. If you were born with something wrong in your head, should you be punished? Punishment of these people is like democracy. It is not the perfect solution, but it works good enough. This thread is not about whether or not we jail, or kill people. This thread is about whether or not that person would be punished on a spiritual level. Link to post Share on other sites
missdependant Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 The way I see it, the terrorists of today are like the Crusaders of Catholicism from the dark ages. I don't see what is much different than someone being dehumanized in our military that is taught that anyone of Middle Eastern descent is horrible and evil. Our military has killed many civillians also.. maybe not for a religious reason, maybe not as a suicide bombers.. but it has happened, and we have destroyed many innocent people's lives. Please keep in mind that I do have a lot of respect for our military, and do pay my respect. I do not believe everyone in our military is bad. I have seen our military go out of it's way to actually do something good for other countries, such as building schools and new bridges, etc. But I am saying that there are those extremists in OUR military as well. I do not agree with terrorism no matter what side of the lines it is coming from. It's about mutual respect and understanding. It is sad that anyone has to die in the name of religion, oil, territory etc. I recently lost someone very close to me in Iraq. I guess I am still confused about many things, but I still try to see both sides. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 The way I see it, the terrorists of today are like the Crusaders of Catholicism from the dark ages. I don't see what is much different than someone being dehumanized in our military that is taught that anyone of Middle Eastern descent is horrible and evil. Our military has killed many civillians also.. maybe not for a religious reason, maybe not as a suicide bombers.. but it has happened, and we have destroyed many innocent people's lives. Please keep in mind that I do have a lot of respect for our military, and do pay my respect. I do not believe everyone in our military is bad. I have seen our military go out of it's way to actually do something good for other countries, such as building schools and new bridges, etc. But I am saying that there are those extremists in OUR military as well. I do not agree with terrorism no matter what side of the lines it is coming from. It's about mutual respect and understanding. It is sad that anyone has to die in the name of religion, oil, territory etc. I recently lost someone very close to me in Iraq. I guess I am still confused about many things, but I still try to see both sides. The main difference, the moral difference ids that nobody in our military or Israels has the civilian as his primary target since August 1945. Hamas broke the law of war when they placed the command facilities in the basewmewnt of apartments and did not evacuate their civilians. But then the bodies of their children is their most potent weapon. That's why they use them as human bombs. Link to post Share on other sites
clv0116 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 .... Their culture, family, and personal beliefs all suggest that doing something like a suicide bombing is beneficial to everyone, including humanity. If not suicide, at least bombing and killing Westerners is a good thing for everyone. In that case their culture is evil and it has molded them into an evil person. I'm sure Adolf Hitler believed in what HE was doing also. Link to post Share on other sites
grogster Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 In that case their culture is evil and it has molded them into an evil person. I'm sure Adolf Hitler believed in what HE was doing also. The authors and implementers of Hitler's Final Solution sincerely believed that they were ridding the world of the scourge of European Jewry. The Cambodian Khmer Rouge in their torture prisons such as Tuol Sleng where thousnads of men , women and children were brutally tortured and executed, and in the killing fields, believed that they were protecting the Revolution. Everyone, every time, always has an excuse for their political/religious crimes. To the extent Mahatma's arguments seek to exculpate the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity, he renders himself an accomplice. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 In that case their culture is evil and it has molded them into an evil person. I'm sure Adolf Hitler believed in what HE was doing also. I have done intense studying on Hitler, actually. He did believe in the master race, but he was not sure how to achieve it. He knew that wiping out the people was "needed," but he was not certain on his method. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 This is an awful thread. OF COURSE anyone who kills thousands of innocent people are bad people! Oh, unless YOUR mother, father, siblings, or other family members were NOT one of the people killed I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If not, I understand the *best* scenario may be to lock them up. However, how can you fault someone who is not sane? About the pedophiles, these people are not sane. There is something wrong with these people. If you were born with something wrong in your head, should you be punished? Punishment of these people is like democracy. It is not the perfect solution, but it works good enough. This thread is not about whether or not we jail, or kill people. This thread is about whether or not that person would be punished on a spiritual level. Ok, I get you. In speaking with my Husband regarding this thread, I thought I would write his comment. Essentially he says that there are only ten spiritual laws. Spiritually you should be punished for breaking them, unless you seek forgiveness for those sins. Fair enough .. So, its not for us to judge others (like eternally) but to contain those who break the spiritual laws such as murder etc, so that they cant hurt anyone else. BUT God has laid down only 10 commandments to follow and they do make perfect sense. So, His Laws, His Judgements. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mahatma Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 This is an awful thread. OF COURSE anyone who kills thousands of innocent people are bad people! Oh, unless YOUR mother, father, siblings, or other family members were NOT one of the people killed I guess. Very rude of you to say that. I have lost a couple close people to terrorism actually. Please refrain from such a horrible statement and assumption ever again in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Very rude of you to say that. I have lost a couple close people to terrorism actually. Please refrain from such a horrible statement and assumption ever again in this thread. Well, then, on behalf of those "close people," I have to say you have a very bizarre and unsympathetic view of the whole thing. Do you think those "close people" were thinking, "Well, they're not really bad people." Doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Well, then, on behalf of those close people, I have to say you have a very bizarre and unsympathetic view of the whole thing. Do you think those close people were thinking, Well, they're not really bad people. Doubt it. Some people do roll with the ideal that nobody is really bad, others that they should not be violently resisted. I'm a vet and not in that camp, but people do live and think that way. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Love your enemy...... Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Some people do roll with the ideal that nobody is really bad, others that they should not be violently resisted. I'm a vet and not in that camp, but people do live and think that way. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Love your enemy...... I'm sorry, but I could never love someone as they were preparing to chop off my head with a machete, and I could never find anything but hatred in my heart for someone who would do such a thing to another person. Not that I would wield the sword of justice, but I would most certainly feel loathing toward them. Link to post Share on other sites
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