Quinch Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I started watching a programme on tv last night about a 13 year old girl in England who has been raised as an Evangelical Christian. Her parents and siblings are all Evangelicals and they live on a farm together. This girl has no friends of her own age because she doesn't go to school (she's educated at home) and has very little contact with the outside world except at nights when she goes out with her family to preach the gospel to drunkards and drug addicts that frequent the town. I couldn't finish watching because I found it too disturbing. She does seem happy enough with her life but its obvious that she's living in a bubble that her family have created for her. It was like watching a hostage with Stockholm Syndrome. She said she was worried about the spiritual welfare of people who will (in her view) go to hell unless she can 'save' them. I'm more concerned about her own psychological welfare. What will happen to her when she grows up and leaves home? The shock of the real world might be too much for her to cope with. Am I the only person who finds that scary? I might try to watch the rest of the programme later but things like that really make me wonder if we might all be better off without religion altogether. (If you're in the UK you can see the programme on BBC iPlayer. It's called Deborah 13: Servant of God) Link to post Share on other sites
2sure Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I understand . It is particularly disenheartening when children of who I consider religious extemists are affected. Like being denied medical treatment, or a chance at a normal life - just exposure to the real world. But the same could be said of politics I suppose, to some degree, or other sets of values - A lot of people screwing up innocent children in the name of their extreme beliefs. Again - moderation is an unappreciated way of life. Link to post Share on other sites
knaveman Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 moderation is an unappreciated way of life. Truer words have never been typed. Link to post Share on other sites
Trojan John Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 She sounds quite intelligent, but equally naïve... I've met several people at uni who grew up like her. With some, the theological discussions were interesting, but only to a point as they tended to be so myopic and stone-headed. The others got their first bf/gf, or had their first alcohol drink and it was a downward slide from then on. I would be very interested to find out what happens to her once she leaves "a remote corner in rural Dorset". Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I saw a programme last year on a similar topic, but the protagonist was a 7 year old kids from some bible belt place in the US. I thought it was cruel- this kid was held up as a minor celebrity in his own town, but when they took him "on tour" they hadn't prepared him at all for the fact that not everyone he preached to would agree with him or think he was great. I had my doubts that he fully understood what he preached, but his parents egged him on. In fact, many New Yorkers openly challenged him, and he was too young to appreciate pure difference of opinion. He was confused, and got really upset, and it was really sad to see him in so much distress unneccessarily. His parents weren't even letting him be a kid. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Quinch Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 I have watched a bit more now but it's still very depressing. But the same could be said of politics I suppose, to some degree, or other sets of values - This is very true. My dad was a city councillor and my mum is a Catholic but, to their credit, they've never tried to impose their views and beliefs on me. I am so grateful to them for letting me chose my own paths in life. This probably explains why I'm a non-voting atheist Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Have you read some of the reviews of this programme on the UK newspaper websites Q? Interesting debates, quite alot of support for the girl, which I thought was surprising. Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I figure if they're that indoctrinated into the church, they'll probably be involved with it for their entire lives for: - Work - Relationships - Entertainment That the "real" world is so different to how she perceives it probably doesn't matter. As long as she stays in the bubble she'll be fine. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I might try to watch the rest of the programme later but things like that really make me wonder if we might all be better off without religion altogether. This issue has already been covered via 'South Park' in the atheist alliance episode. In essence both groups of atheists still wanted shot of the other group which pointed to the human issue being one of conformity within chosen groups, even without faith. Hence, I see no other route than living in a pluralistic society - otherwise core human issues are never tackled in order to actualise faith. I see this to be ever more relevant when viewing what is happening in Northern Ireland right now with the call for integrated schools and at numerous other points within history. As for the programme, I watched it with a couple of my teens who could not get over how brave the girl was. They also respected the interaction that came about between her and the groups of kids she spoke with. Each will have their own opinion of whether she is too sheltered etc but at this current time I would say that she did not display any behaviours to be concerned by. In fact, she seemed more able to rationalise her core belief in relation to her behaviours than her peers. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
Mahatma Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 a couple of my teens who could not get over how brave the girl was. They also respected the interaction Brave? Or bold in her ignorance? Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Brave? Or bold in her ignorance? You would think it ignorance because you do not believe in the message. I think she was bold because I do. This chasm can never be met in purely human terms Mahatma and I accept this. No point arguing about it. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I think its ignorance that her parents are restricting her education, therefore propelling their children in one direction. Her beliefs are all she knows, she has never been taught anything else by anyone else other than her family. I think thats very obtuse, and not a good basis at all for critical thinking or mature thought. So yes, its ignorance when they don't know the whole picture. What would be "brave" if she was taught a wider spectrum of knowledge by a variety of people (eg more science and alternatives to creationism) and then still came to the same conclusions about god. Her parents are obviously too scared that this wouldn't happen, therefore restrict their childrens education- I think thats anything BUT brave, and it has nothing to do with believing the message. Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I think its ignorance that her parents are restricting her education, therefore propelling their children in one direction. Her beliefs are all she knows, she has never been taught anything else by anyone else other than her family. I think thats very obtuse, and not a good basis at all for critical thinking or mature thought. So yes, its ignorance when they don't know the whole picture. What would be "brave" if she was taught a wider spectrum of knowledge by a variety of people (eg more science and alternatives to creationism) and then still came to the same conclusions about god. Her parents are obviously too scared that this wouldn't happen, therefore restrict their childrens education- I think thats anything BUT brave, and it has nothing to do with believing the message. I didnt get that feeling from the programme. Yeah, home schooling can be difficult but they must have been taught range of subjects because the older brother had got into University based entirely on his home schooling! The girl was not restricted to her internet usage, having friends, visiting her brother at his Univesity Campus etc. I think that counts as access to alternative lifestyles. I dont know. I suppose different people saw different things. As long as we all aware of our biases and why we have them.. fine. I did not detect any abuse of any sort. It wasnt like she is being used within a cult. Anyhow nuff said on my part. Enjoy tearing the family and Christianity apart. Regards, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
allina Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I watched it on YouTube, so sad, what a misled child. I couldn't believe it when they were saying that there has never been a caveman and that dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve I've heard these people talk like that before but it never fails to shock me, I seriously cannot believe they think that! Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I am biased towards evolution being taught in schools, yes. I think in this day and age its irresponsible to teach anything else, and you are setting your kids up for ridicule in higher education institutions if they decide to go on and study any kind of science subject. I think there is NO place for creationism to be taught at any level, anywhere, by anyone. It infuriates me that scientists have worked so hard for so long to find out and prove and disprove theories and provide a school curriculum that is so rich in knowledge, only for some halfwit to decide thats not OK by them and to then teach their own kids a bunch of unproven nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites
sb129 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 And some of you may say that now I'm being obtuse and not opening my mind to alternatives to evolution, but I came to that conclusion by looking exploring alternatives myself, and I will encourage my kids to do the same if they have any issues with it. Link to post Share on other sites
SpanksTheMonkey Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 In fact, many New Yorkers openly challenged him, . Thats cause many New Yourkers are the spawn of the devil himself! lol.. JK.. they should have taken him to New Jersey! Na but for real that is indeed sad I have to say things like that and the general forceful nature of most "religious" people have turned me off organized religion all together.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Quinch Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 I couldn't believe it when they were saying that there has never been a caveman and that dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve I've heard these people talk like that before but it never fails to shock me, I seriously cannot believe they think that! I believe there's a museum in America based on that theory. It's like a science museum but with animatronic dinosaurs living in loving harmony with animatronic humans and not eating them But ask them to scientifically rationalise their theory and they can't. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 can we expect an animatronic bloodfest to be staged at that museum sometime soon? Link to post Share on other sites
LovieDove24 Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 I am biased towards evolution being taught in schools, yes. I think in this day and age its irresponsible to teach anything else, and you are setting your kids up for ridicule in higher education institutions if they decide to go on and study any kind of science subject. I think there is NO place for creationism to be taught at any level, anywhere, by anyone. It infuriates me that scientists have worked so hard for so long to find out and prove and disprove theories and provide a school curriculum that is so rich in knowledge, only for some halfwit to decide thats not OK by them and to then teach their own kids a bunch of unproven nonsense. I tend to stear clear of creationism and fundamentalist beliefs. I view the old testament as a metaphor, how could any of that be possible? As a christian myself, I've NEVER understood why people feel that they need to argue God vs. Science. God CREATED science. He created "The Big Bang" if thats how it really happened. What is there to disagree about? Can't we all just hold hands and agree that the very first teeny, tiny atom or universe partical came from SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW and that it doesn't need to be in disagreement with science but rather in addition to? Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Science is a human creation. It is a systematic process for understanding how everything works. A being who already knows everything would have no need for such a process. Just a minor nitpick. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
LovieDove24 Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Science is about order. Why wouldn't a "supreme being" or whatever you feel comfortable calling a higher power want order? Link to post Share on other sites
Eve Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Science is a human creation. It is a systematic process for understanding how everything works. A being who already knows everything would have no need for such a process. Just a minor nitpick. Cheers, D. The said higher being does go on about process a whole lot though. Plus if He did not hold to His own process how competent would He be? In human terms the same arguement holds fast also. Hence our breaking things down maybe 'science' to our minds but if God is who is says He is .. He is the only 'reality'. The most fascinating example (for me) is the whole notion of how our brains work.... remember 90% remains unexplained. Synaptic points, dopamine ... blah blah blah. None of it can be viewed, not one of the diagrams is accurate, its all imagination! We just have clever diagrams of what people think maybe going on. So, no, science is not a man made concept, it is a process of analysis by men and women who are looking for answers within an enviroment which ultimately is not of their making. Take care, Eve xx Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Science is about order. Why wouldn't a "supreme being" or whatever you feel comfortable calling a higher power want order? Because you're confused as to what science actually is. Science is not order, it is a process humans use to accumulate an understanding about the natural world. It is a weapon against ignorance. Any being that is all-knowing has no need for such a process; they already know everything and have no ignorance to overcome. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The most fascinating example (for me) is the whole notion of how our brains work.... remember 90% remains unexplained. Sorry for another nitpick, but the 10% myth has been busted for a long time. Synaptic points, dopamine ... blah blah blah. None of it can be viewed, not one of the diagrams is accurate, its all imagination! We just have clever diagrams of what people think maybe going on. We actually have highly accurate images and have had for some time now. Knowledge in this area seems to have advanced quite a way since last you checked. So, no, science is not a man made concept, it is a process of analysis by men and women who are looking for answers within an enviroment which ultimately is not of their making. Err, yes it is. The scientific method is indeed man-made. You haven't even said anything that claims otherwise. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
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