pkn06002 answers to taylors questions

[Owl]

You raise a good point, PKN.

 

I don't know a good way to communicate your needs, and the criticality of having them fulfilled without making it sound like a threat.

 

And I don't mean to imply that you should "threaten" your wife in any fashion either.

 

But she needs to understand just how critical it is for her to "step up" and start meeting those needs. And if she's "rolling her eyes" and acting the way that you've described, she either doesn't understand how critical this is...or she's as LSD described, and already "checked out" of your marriage.

 

Which do you think it might be in your case?

[taylor]

Believe me I have talked to my IC about this in depth and right now I just do the best I can.

 

I don't worry about my wife making me happy anymore, I do that. I have picked back up hobbies that I put on the wayside. I always to invite my wife to participate she doesn't want to that is her choice. But I am done trying to force my wants/needs on her.

 

Reading this scared me PKN because I was in this exact mindset just prior to the start of my affair.

 

I stopped looking to my husband for happiness. I stopped getting upset by what he did or didn't do. I reached a point where what he did just didn't matter to me anymore.

 

I resolved that I would find my own happiness without him. I also joined a few clubs, the gym, took some dance classes, started going out with girlfriends...to dinner and concerts and other events..and I got a job. I started doing many things without him. And the scary thing is I was enjoying myself without him.

 

And right before I launched into the affair with a coworker at my new job, my husband said, "You disgust me. If you are so unhappy, why don't you go find yourself a life."

 

The thing is...I did. A life without him. A life with another man involved.

 

I checked out of my marriage and allowed the OM to "check in."

 

PKN, You are heading down a wrong path, IMO. I have a feeling you are going to find yourself in another woman's arms again.

 

What does your IC say about this?

[pkn06002]

Owl,

I think I may of answered your question in a post above. Let me know if I need to add more.

 

Taylor,

I understand what you are saying and you make a valid point. Except for this. The affair emotionally ended very badly for me, if I was single I would not date anyone for another 6 months to make sure I was "OK". At this point I know what I am "missing" but you know what I am not placing the same type of importance on it I did before my affair. So those same triggers are not in play right now. Now what the future holds in that regard??? That is a different question, frankly something I do not know the answer to right now.

 

I do know that if I get to the point where those triggers are in play again and I am at the point where I am actively looking for someone else I will leave. Because I am not going through the same heartache I just went through. I will get a divorce and chase the dream. Since now I really know what I want from someone. Tell you what I don't know if I would ever get married again.

 

You know this all sounds so depressing.

 

Well I have to work, I will check in later today. I am trying to limit my posts since I do find myself in a BAD funk the following day if I post alot.

[HeidiB125]

Not everyone deals with these types of marriage dynamics with affairs. An affair, much like alcohol or drugs, is an escape. It's not dealing with the conflicts in a mature and productive way. Believe it or not separation and/or divorce is mature and productive in some cases. Not so with an affair. Sure it's possible that someday any one of us may meet someone, even when things are getting better, and want to leave the marriage for another person. The thing is we all have come to realize that communication and treating our spouses with respect are more important and more fulfilling then infidelity.

[Dexter Morgan]

2) I have been VERY specific about those things I would like. I get rolled eyes and snotty comments and sometimes though she will do them. I talked to the MC about this and she does find it strange how my wife responds to things.

 

What are the things you ask for that she rolls seems to dismiss?

[taylor]

Owl,

I think I may of answered your question in a post above. Let me know if I need to add more.

 

Taylor,

I understand what you are saying and you make a valid point. Except for this. The affair emotionally ended very badly for me, if I was single I would not date anyone for another 6 months to make sure I was "OK". At this point I know what I am "missing" but you know what I am not placing the same type of importance on it I did before my affair. So those same triggers are not in play right now. Now what the future holds in that regard??? That is a different question, frankly something I do not know the answer to right now.

 

I do know that if I get to the point where those triggers are in play again and I am at the point where I am actively looking for someone else I will leave. Because I am not going through the same heartache I just went through. I will get a divorce and chase the dream. Since now I really know what I want from someone. Tell you what I don't know if I would ever get married again.

 

You know this all sounds so depressing.

 

Well I have to work, I will check in later today. I am trying to limit my posts since I do find myself in a BAD funk the following day if I post alot.

 

Sorry, Didn't mean to put you in a funk.

 

What you wrote above, tho, is very telling.

 

If I could predict the future I would say you are probably going to spend some time (a year, perhaps) recovering from the affair relationship...and when you are all healed up, you will meet someone new.

 

In the meantime, your marriage will become a marriage only in the legal sense.

 

Hopefully you will end the marriage before that new person comes into your life. But something tells me that's not how it will play out. This new person may serve as a catalyst for you to end your marriage. Because until you meet someone new, your marriage isn't going anywhere.

 

Again, pure speculation.

[HeidiB125]

"Hopefully you will end the marriage before that new person comes into your life. But something tells me that's not how it will play out. This new person may serve as a catalyst for you to end your marriage. Because until you meet someone new, your marriage isn't going anywhere." (not sure how to do the quote thing yet.)

 

My husband had the same mentality and you know what it STILL didn't end the marriage. What will end the marriage is being honest and open with your spouse. Remember we're trying to direct people to higher ground here. Why must we always settle to the lowest water line? Keep talking to her about it. Believe it or not the more you try and see what she is capable or incapable of the more you will realize it within yourself that the marriage will or will not work. By that merit alone you should make your decision. Sure there are times when people meet someone and then that moves them to leave a bad relationship but that is not what we should be striving for. Being emotionally healthy and on your own is not such a terrible place to be. Just think of all the possibilities...

[pkn06002]

What are the things you ask for that she rolls seems to dismiss?

 

Dexter,

I had a list of things I requested.

 

1) She would try (just try) some of my hobbies. I like doing outdoor stuff. I also do RC planes. Well she "tried" for all of 5 minutes and that was it. Complained the whole time. I like bike riding same thing.

 

2) Trying to get here to engage in more exercise, well unless you can consider exercise where you don't sweat that did not work.

 

3) Just coming downstairs when I am working on something and talking to me. Nope will not do that either because I am not paying complete attention to her.

 

4) Watching some of my shows with me. I like UFC, Football etc... that does not interest her in the least so she will not even sit and try to watch with me.

 

5) With our kid working out ideas that incorporated BOTH of our opinions on how to raise our child. Nope unless it is HER idea's and I go lock step with her I am undermining her and not supporting her. So my ideas are just ignored.

 

6) Talk about things without feeling like I am being judged. Just listen to me vent. She does not understand what I do for a job that i need to vent about so she just gets a deer in the headlights look and looks uninterested.

 

7) I don't want her criticizing me in front of our child.

 

8) Sex thing how about the whole notion that she would actually want to be there. I went into depth on this one on my old thread. There has been some improvement on this but very little. I am tired of doing all the work when we do have sex. It is frankly boring. Yes I have tried to "spice" things up with suggestions, both verbal, written, website, videos anything to get the idea across.

 

Notice sex is way down the list. I just want someone to be my friend and hang out where we can enjoy each other's company. Seems like such a simple thing.

 

All the things I listed above I DO for her side of the coin.

 

I am a sarcastic person and I used to tease her a lot, I have stopped that.

I would tease her in front of our child, she did not like it so I stopped.

I will sit and watch her shows.

I try to engage in her activities.

I help around the house.

I back her when she has issues with our child.

I do not bitch and moan about sex.

I provide for the family

 

 

So there you go.

 

Taylor:

You maybe right as to what my future holds. I have thought very much along the same lines. No one here has said anything I have not thought. But I know I have responsibilities that I have to live up to. I am not a squeaky wheel I just continue to go along. But like I mentioned earlier I am not going down the affair path again. It is too much work to put that type of effort in for no long term reward.

[carhill]

Congratulations. We're twins married to twins. See my prior advice in this thread

[Reggie]

Don't know if I can add much. But, one thing you mentioned, PKN, is that , initially, you were okay with her passivity and then started to feel she needed to take charge more. So, it appears she was not hiding who she was from you when you married her.

You were also aware that she was inexpierienced, sexually, and would have no one to comapre you with. You attribute her lack of appreciation of your skills to this. But, without having had sex with others, how can she possibly compare you to tothers.

My point is that you entered into this agreement with full knowledge of what you perceive to be her limitations in these areas.

I am not sure how recent your wife's discovey of your affair is. But, if it is within the typical 2-5 year period most therapists feel in neccessary for recovery, it seems premature to expect a great deal of change. I expect she has pain and resentment to deal with and making changes may feel like you are being rewarded for hurting her.

I'd give this a significant period of time to allow her to heal before getting to upset by her lack of change.

You've mentioned some minor improvement and that is huge in light of the blow she has been dealt.

It seems that a BS recovering from an affair is fairly rare and that the pain and scars last a lifetime. Perhaps the affair has just caused too much damage to expect improvemnt. The choice to cheat may have undermined any chance of improvement, and that is very understandable.

Obviously, it is your choice as to whether you want to continue trying. You are doing a cost/benefit thing, as we all do. How much time do you feel you need to allow for change or are you willing to stay regardless of change?

I was in a marriage much like yours, with no give from the other side, no willingness to compromise or even acknowledge that things sucked. One gets worn down continually hitting one's head against a brick wall.

For me, especially in light of the infidelity, divorce improved my life and that of my kids.

It's too bad that the cheating occurred as it complicates things so much.

[Dexter Morgan]

Dexter,

I had a list of things I requested.

 

1) She would try (just try) some of my hobbies. I like doing outdoor stuff. I also do RC planes. Well she "tried" for all of 5 minutes and that was it. Complained the whole time. I like bike riding same thing.

 

Well I can't blame her there. Men's interests and women's generally aren't the same in this arena. Just like you wouldn't probably be up for scrapbooking if she was into that.

 

 

 

2) Trying to get here to engage in more exercise, well unless you can consider exercise where you don't sweat that did not work.

 

are you sure this isn't self serving?

 

 

3) Just coming downstairs when I am working on something and talking to me. Nope will not do that either because I am not paying complete attention to her.

 

Well is it because you ignore her?

 

 

4) Watching some of my shows with me. I like UFC, Football etc... that does not interest her in the least so she will not even sit and try to watch with me.

 

Again, don't blame her a bit. My gf won't watch UFC or sports with me. Women generally aren't interested. Just like I'm not interested in watching American Idol with her. She watches her thing, I watch mine.

 

 

5) With our kid working out ideas that incorporated BOTH of our opinions on how to raise our child. Nope unless it is HER idea's and I go lock step with her I am undermining her and not supporting her. So my ideas are just ignored.

 

 

Nothing unreasonable here with you expecting a joint parenting effort.

 

 

6) Talk about things without feeling like I am being judged. Just listen to me vent. She does not understand what I do for a job that i need to vent about so she just gets a deer in the headlights look and looks uninterested.

 

It is important for both parties to be able to feel like they can vent to the other about daily happenings.

 

 

8) Sex thing how about the whole notion that she would actually want to be there. I went into depth on this one on my old thread. There has been some improvement on this but very little. I am tired of doing all the work when we do have sex. It is frankly boring. Yes I have tried to "spice" things up with suggestions, both verbal, written, website, videos anything to get the idea across.

 

Notice sex is way down the list. I just want someone to be my friend and hang out where we can enjoy each other's company. Seems like such a simple thing.

 

All the things I listed above I DO for her side of the coin.

 

There are a few reasonable things on here, but I did highlight those that I wouldn't blame her for not wanting to participate in.

 

 

I am a sarcastic person and I used to tease her a lot, I have stopped that.

I would tease her in front of our child, she did not like it so I stopped.

I will sit and watch her shows.

I try to engage in her activities.

I help around the house.

I back her when she has issues with our child.

I do not bitch and moan about sex.

I provide for the family

 

 

So there you go.

 

And its good that you do those things. But there is one thing that may prevent her from totally being on board with all that you expect........you cheated on her. So if she is to get on board with some of your expectations(i wouldn't say all of them cuz there are a few i wouldn't expect her to be in to), then it may take time because you jilted her. Someone who has been betrayed in the worst way may take time to come around. Its kind of hard to think about giving in to a wayward spouses "demands" because it seems like emotional extortion. Like they are doing things to appease the person that cheated on them ONLY to keep them from cheating again.

 

Will it get better? I can't say. I divorced my wife over her infidelity.

 

But as the WS, you need to be patient and see what happens. Keep talking to her. yes, she needs to do her part in the marriage, but the greater burden of effort, since you cheated, lies with you at this point and time until some healing can happen....if that is possible.

[pkn06002]

Well I am not going anywhere right now, so there is time.

 

I very much understand why she may not be on board with things. Which makes sense since she was more on board before I told her. She was able to deal with just marriage problems a whole lot easier than marriage problems and an affair.

 

It is just very frustrating to see her not react like a lot of BS I see here. Almost like she wants to sweep it under the rug and go on. Which is something I can't do.

 

But hey thanks everyone for the opinions and perspective. It actually helps a lot.

[tami-chan]

Maybe she is not "sweeping it under the rug"-maybe it is defiance. Her way of letting you know , she is in control of her life and thus, her marriage. As if, telling you, indirectly, if you want to stay, you stay on her terms and she is not changing anything...I know, I did (or do). In my mind, my husband had no right to demand any change from me-he can either take me as I am or leave...afterall he said the affairs had nothing to do with me...so...why should I have to adjust or change my life for HIS benefit?

[pkn06002]

Maybe she is not "sweeping it under the rug"-maybe it is defiance. Her way of letting you know , she is in control of her life and thus, her marriage. As if, telling you, indirectly, if you want to stay, you stay on her terms and she is not changing anything...I know, I did (or do). In my mind, my husband had no right to demand any change from me-he can either take me as I am or leave...afterall he said the affairs had nothing to do with me...so...why should I have to adjust or change my life for HIS benefit?

 

You make an interesting point.

 

My counter point will be if she wants a happy pkn06002 she needs to make some changes. If not we can just continue in the unhappy mod we are in now and I will just plan an exit for once our child is old enough.

[dreamlover]

Pkn,

 

Have you ever loved your wife? Do you still love her? Have you thought about the negetive impact that your relationship with you W will have on your child?

[dreamlover]

Pkn, forgot to mention that I am in a very similar situation as you. and I totally understand how it feels when staying in a marriage because of small kids.

[pkn06002]

Pkn,

 

Have you ever loved your wife? Do you still love her? Have you thought about the negetive impact that your relationship with you W will have on your child?

 

At one time I loved my wife yes, now I would not say that I do. I do care for her deeply but love no.

 

Yes I know the negative impacts on our child. I have to weight that against all of the research that a divorce in our type marriage has on a child. Right not that balance goes towards staying married.

[tami-chan]

At one time I loved my wife yes, now I would not say that I do. I do care for her deeply but love no.

 

Yes I know the negative impacts on our child. I have to weight that against all of the research that a divorce in our type marriage has on a child. Right not that balance goes towards staying married.

 

Does your wife know you do not love her anymore?

 

Anyway, I do understand why couple stay in the marriage even without this thing called "love"--marriage is much more than that.

 

Btw, I am just curious, you have said earlier you need a "physically attractive wife"--I have two assumptions here:

 

1) That her "physical attractiveness" has deteriorated in time

2) You are physically attractive and has maintained it

 

If her physical attractiveness has deteriorated in time, would you support her getting aesthetic surgery?

[pkn06002]

Does your wife know you do not love her anymore?

 

Anyway, I do understand why couple stay in the marriage even without this thing called "love"--marriage is much more than that.

 

Btw, I am just curious, you have said earlier you need a "physically attractive wife"--I have two assumptions here:

 

1) That her "physical attractiveness" has deteriorated in time

2) You are physically attractive and has maintained it

 

If her physical attractiveness has deteriorated in time, would you support her getting aesthetic surgery?

 

Yes she knows we have discussed this topic.

 

Yes her "physical attractiveness" as deteriorated and I have keep mine. Thing is I do believe that attractiveness goes beyond just pure beauty. Part of someones physical attractiveness is how they act. My wife likes to act like her mother which is old. My wife is 43 no 78. But she acts like she is 78.

 

Pure physical attractiveness has never really been a big draw for me. On the 1-10 scale I generally like woman that are 6-8's. I did date a woman that a lot of men would put in the 8/9 scale for a long time and that beauty did not keep me. Why because she was mean.

 

We have talked about plastic surgery. She is not totally sold on the idea. If anything it would NOT be breast augmentation either.

[jj33]

Plastic surgery? I assume you mean liposuction -- not the answer my friend.

 

Lipsosuction or gastric bypass is not the answer if someone is not motivated to lose weight and lead a healthy lifestyle. Its drastic. And its surgery which comes with its own risks.

 

I assume its not something else as she was sufficiently attractive that you married her unless she suffered some disfigurement since you were married.

 

No offense, but this sounds like an awful mismatch between the 2 of you if she is so unattractive to you that you want her to have surgery. And if she is not sold on it, its a very bad idea. To ask someone to undergo surgery to save a marriage you arent sold on is... it just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and could push her away from you even further emotionally. It sounds like she simply doesnt do it for you. Shes not Coppellia (if you know the ballet). You cant rebuild her into the perfect wife. Or you could try but the prognosis is not good.

 

I have struggled with my weight my whole life and whether I was a size 8 or a size 16 I always thought I was fat (and I am very tall). Never perfect enough. Body image is a delicate thing. Now that I am not as slim I realize its a matter of confidence and attitude and liking yourself (and of course health). If someone was not attracted to me because I am not a size 10 I would write it off as being very superficial but it sounds like your situation is much different.

 

Before trying to convince her to have surgery so that she is the kind of woman you want to be married to, maybe you want to consider just accepting that you are staying for your child. That she is not the woman you want to be with, but she is who she is. And she has to want to change.

 

Whether its depression, self esteem issues or something else, its not something that surgery is going to change. All youd have a cosmetically altered wife who still didnt meet your needs as set forth in your list in the earlier posts. And she would probably resent you like no tomorrow.

[pkn06002]

No lipo suction either, my wife is thin.

 

She could have her nose corrected and have the bags under her eyes removed. Now these are all HER suggestions not mine.

 

I already have come to grips with the idea that I stay for our child not for her.

[jj33]

Oh OK. Im surprised.

 

Isnt it the same nose she had when you got married? And the bags well if she is only in her 40s it is probably premature as she will only have to get it done again later. But what do I know. I obviously havent seen her.

 

Do you think that sort of surgery would make her more attractive to you? Would it make an overall difference? If she wants it that is one thing. It all sounds like there are massive self esteem issues there unless she was always felt her nose made her unattractive. Nose jobs arent uncommon in young girls but I think they are less common when people are older. People usually become more comfortable with their looks. Its difficult.

[tami-chan]

No lipo suction either, my wife is thin.

 

She could have her nose corrected and have the bags under her eyes removed. Now these are all HER suggestions not mine.

 

I already have come to grips with the idea that I stay for our child not for her.

 

 

jj33, pkn did NOT ask her to have her nose corrected, she herself wants her nose corrected. If she would look better with a corrected nose what's wrong with pkn agreeing with her? and the eye bags? some people get them even younger....most get it when they are older...

 

pkn, here's hoping you will find some kind of joy with your decision---no regrets and no resentments....

[jj33]

I understand that but if she brought it up after she knew he was unhappy I think its a slippery slope. She doesnt sound like someone who wants plastic surgery. It would be ashame for her to do it to appease him if hes only staying for the children.

[jwi71]

PK,

 

Flu sidelined me for several days...

 

You are, as I said, in an unenviable situation.

 

How do you clearly communicate your needs to your W (who you betrayed) in a non-threatening manner yet make sure that repercussions are clear.

 

Like Dex said...how do you say "Change or I'll screw someone else again and/or leave".

 

Before we get to my answer...a question for you PK:

 

If you could recover your M to how it once was...would you?

 

Take the question as-is. Do you want your W? Or try for another?

 

I'm thinking you would choose your W and the following is based on such.

 

MY answer to Dexter's conundrum: a history lesson.

 

I would speak of how you met, the places you frequented, your first date and how it made you feel. The phrase "I remember" cannot be spoken enough. The question "DO you remember..." cannot be asked enough. Truly reminisce with her.

 

Then remember how you "popped the question". Remember the planning (or not)...remember the ceremony and how she looked. How she brought out emotion in you.

 

Remember the good days...and the bad. Slowly introduce the stress and hardship and the appearance of "the gap". How the drifting apart (taking for granted) began. How reality interrupted. Discuss, monologue if you must, where your feelings started to go astray.

 

Then discuss the A. What you gained from it. What you lost from it. And where it led you. Draw a picture, a line, from emotional disconnect to A. How it is ultimately unmet needs and one's inability (courage) to deal with "the gap". Be honest...but do NOT use it as a weapon.

 

Tell your W "the gap" is still there. Its OK to admit the A took "the gap" and made it a great big freaking canyon. Ask how to fill it. Ask her to help. And this is the tricky part and largely depends upon your goals and where your W is in recovery.

 

I can almost promise a "you made this mess you fix it...why should I help...why should I change response along the lines of Tami-chan". And to a degree, she IS right..you took the gap and made it into that huge freaking canyon...BUT YOU BOTH MADE THE GAP.

 

And I think its key. This is little more than a verbose "The BS MUST accept the role he/she played. And to that end, the BS can give and meet the needs of the WS". Ask her to fill the gap. The part SHE owns (and she does).

 

This is a HUGE gambit. Your W may not be ready. Only you can make the judgement.

 

In any case...its how I tried. Its what I would do. And I think all the precusor is necessary. You NEED her to see and have hope. You need to tell your side. NO blaming. NO attacks...just a history lesson. This led to that and then the other happened and look where we are. I don't want to be here anymore. Help me.

 

And if that doesn't work...well, then I think you are setting yourself up for hard times. Pain -> Anger -> Resentment -> Bitterness which rubs off on your child. These things are cyclical for a reason...your child WILL learn it or at least be "colored" by it.

 

Spare yourself that.

 

Best wishes...always willing to post more drivel...even w/o request!