Invited to same BBQ as MM and his W, WWYD?

[Owl]

And of course nothing could have possibly been lost in translation in the course of those exchanges!

 

YOU'RE missing the point, KG. It doesn't matter what their marriage is like because he's not leaving it for you or anyone. Period.

 

So if this is how you feel as the OW:

 

 

then it's time you do something about it so you can stop feeling like sh*t every day.

 

KG, this is the bottomline that you've continued to avoid.

 

He's not leaving her. He's not going to do anything to improve his relationship with you. He doesn't care about anything beyond getting what he wants here...his wife, and his mistress.

 

Either you like being his mistress enough to continue with things "as is" (in which case, your posts here complaining about the situation are pointless)...or you're not.

 

If you're not...you need to take action to change the situation.

 

It's that simple.

 

And as long as you continue to intentionally try to make it seem more complicated, you're just letting yourself come up with rationalizations and justifications for his poor, boorish behaviors.

 

Either decide that you don't like the situation and take actions to change it...or stop complaining about it and accept that it's what you want...drama and all.

[Chocolat]

I don't really consider what he and I have to be a relationship.

 

snip

 

I understand she has had reason in the past to suspect, but what's the point of staying married to someone who you won't ever trust again? How can you live like that? Either trust them again, or let it go, right?

 

Yeesh. You sure can miss the point in a really big way.

 

Look, if you are unable to walk away from this guy who is doing nothing for you beyond a good screwing every once in a while, why do you think it will be so easy for her to walk away when she has built a life and family with him? Add to that the fact that he is no doubt telling her the "I love you's" he does not say to you, and why would she be quicker to give up on him than you are?

 

You seem to be all hung up on the fact that you are prettier, better in bed, more interesting, blah, blah, blah. Ok, let's assume you are all that and more. It doesn't matter. He has not chosen to be with you.

 

I really wonder if she WOULD divorce him if she found indesputable evidence that he's had an affair, and whether it would make a difference if she thought it was a one time/short term thing, as opposed to the fact that it has been over four years. I also wonder if it would make a difference if she thought is was purely PA, or purely EA, or a bit of both.

 

Hello, Kismet! Come back to earth. Let's play this one out. She finds out and kicks him out. Never wants anything to do with him again. Are you prepared to have a relationship with a guy who will now be heartsick because he has wrecked his home and damaged his relationship with his kids? Not to mention collateral damage to their friends and his in-laws. He'll be scrambling like mad to pay the child support, spend time with his kids, and appease everyone who will tell him he was a fool to lose it all over a fling. He may well resent you for the outcome, as well as too tired or too stessed to be the lover you know.

 

And he may find you a whole lot less attractive as a potential mother to his kids (albeit on a part-time basis) than once-a-week lover. What will your r/s with him be like when there are small children in the mix and sex is a hurried activity after the kids go to bed and not an all-day romp throughout the house? Have you actually contemplated what day-to-day life with this man would be like?

 

 

I'm better than this...I deserve better.

 

Great. Then let your actions match your words.

[SerenityX2]

KG that was a brilliant reply by Chocolat....really think about that and I'd like to expound on some things.

 

First I think you should be cautious about what Bob's wife told you...it does sound like a fishing expedition but what it could be was a fishing expedition that MM's wife put her up to. It's not out of the realm especially if she's having suspicisions and is looking for proof.

 

See you seem to think she doesn't trust MM for no reason, well we all know there's no truth to that "no reason" right? But you also are coming across that she's just holding on for the family sake surely she must pick up on the distance blah blah blah. That's where it's entirely your speculation and you have no idea what MM says to her behind closed doors. You really need to give her the benefit of the doubt that she is clueless not b/c she wants to stick her head in the sand and not deal with marital troubles but b/c HE convinces her the marriage is A-OK w/him.

 

I really think that it's him projecting what he feels onto his wife regarding the not stepping out for a drink with you. This is my speculation but there is nothing to say that if he said "I'm going to stop off and have a drink w/a buddy" and she' wouldn't say "great have fun etc..." He's not b/c HE DOESN'T WANT TO....Kismet he's a conflict avoider right? He can't even admit to emotions so you say....what in the world makes you think he's going to be completely honest with you? He knows you can't exactly call her up and say "why won't you let MM out to play?"

 

He only wants you to *think* it's his bad controlling wife that won't let him have any fun not even a drink out with people....seriously you're buying that? The only reason would be to feed your fantasy. Bottom line is for whatever reason he doesn't want to feed that type of connection with you or he would....NO ONE controls another's actions to that degree we're all responsible for our choices and actions and if he WANTED to he would. Put that on a mirror to help you detox from this.

 

It's very clear this is an addiction for you. Kismet use what you know about addictions. People will want what they can't have. That's why this is so potent. But anything we "want" will take on that allure and intoxication. From seeing an object such as a car or a piece of jewelery to an actual person. If you don't just appreciate it for the asthetic and say "that's lovely or he/she is good looking" and move on it's going to fuel and control your thoughts. If you now start to obsess and say "I can't have it, or him/her, but I WANT it" and now you can't stop thinking about it and the what ifs and how great it will be to have X thing then you have the problem.

 

That's why many on here with few exceptions will equate this thing to a rollercoaster....the highs are incredible, like no other...but the lows.....Kismet those highs aren't realistic that's why you'll never meet someone while you are entwined with him....NEVER kismet you can't. A normal r'ship will always, always fall short of this unhealthy high and addiction even thoug it feels good.

 

My H and I consider ourselves to be happily married. We'll even say we are passionate but no where near that initial eat, sleep and breath each other. .I can watch him work on a project and get those "cool" feelings. But it changes and grows deeper and becomes "different". The chemistry is still there and even though we have developed things we do to keep the spice and fire, the fire isn't always "ON" nor is it normal in a "normal r'ship". He still can give me butterflys but when we're sitting discussing DS's report card, those butterflys ain't there! But the deep love, trust, friendship is always there no matter the activity.

 

I'm saying this and treading carefully b/c I hear you talk about the intensity and the crazy clawing off the ceiling sex that you can't give up. Trust me when I say, I totally get where you're coming from, I'm giving you TMI about my life for a frame of reference. I understand the whole "every night" and 5x on the weekends. We do that too...BUT it's not a given there's not a set pattern. Sometimes there's a plan, sometimes we fall into it and sometimes no matter...life takes over. And you roll with it so although sometimes it is intense,it's not at a constant level 24/7, but it's better than anything I'd ever imagined b/c it's fused with a security....of being able to say and do anything...of having that level of trust. Kismet I hope to ring a bell with you, that what you have with him is pure fantasy, it does't exist on a real world level, that's it's power.

 

You don't have a trust with MM. Case in point you can't even talk to him about what his thought are on this whole mess. How can you say this is an EA? ...PA absolutely but EA? You guys talk about light stuff. Friends, how you're doing in school, jobs. You'll touch on deep feelings but he'll scramble away. That's not a connection. That's an emotionial avoider.

 

So that brings me to Chocolat's points. Let's just assume all of this is true that he loves but is not "in love" with his wife (btw I agree with that part, you don't show "true" love to someone by cheating on them) I still think he has a messed up definition of love...love is selfless...not selfish. So he misses the mark right there. And also you are lookin for the whys in all of this to make sense, but Kismet affairs cannot be examined by the same logic as a normal r'ship. It can't, it's very nature is secretive the whole set up is flawed so it can't follow normal dating rules logic of love and people's actions.

 

Anyway so he get him by default. Besides the points Chocolat brought up about him being tired and not as "sexy" all the time are likely to be true. Once the "rush" of havig the forbidden and wears off, he and maybe you two are going to need a new high...a new fix. He's cheated before you really trust him? You couldn't talk to him in the beginning about your concerns. So now you're in med school and he's paying out the wazoo for child support, true possibly resenting you, b/c he's lost friends in the process, they've gone to her, b/c he didn't even have the balls to to the decent thing and end things with her when this continued with her...he's been LYING to her for FOUR YEARS.

 

People who respected him now think he's ball-less scum not for the affair...maybe they could forgive him that but for leading a dual cake-eating life b/c he has some sort of entitlement going on. He's depressed now and you try to get him out of it, but it's not working, and the bills and what about when kid's A B and C now need this or that and he feels guilty. Oh and let's not forget the huge possibility of being even more pissed off b/c his wife's met someone who treats her like gold. Looks like it's getting serious and the kids are going to have a new step dad.

 

You enjoy in the what if's Kismet....think about that. You honestly think this selfish MM is going to stand for another guy stepping in the dad role? You're only painting the pretty ending where things are "hard" for a time but it'll all work out and the kids will love you (no guarantee there either they may hate you, esp if the truth comes out) Life has a funny way of getting it's lessons across if we refuse to learn them.

 

Anyway if thinking about the worse case with him doesn't work. And really the reason you should is look at the treatment of you from him. He does absolutely nothing special for you and avoid conflict and you think you're story will be different with him why? Because of the hot sex? C'mon Kismet you said it when you said this isn't a r'ship why hang on?

 

I also fear at the "tall order" (no pun) that you have for meeting a guy. He's got to be tall, light hair and eyes. Plus rock your sexual world, and make you laugh, be a bit of a goofball, not too serious. You are setting yourself up for failure. It's going to be hard enough to find those physical traits (and you never find what you're looking for if you're looking only when you're not...that's true) but while you have these intense feelings going on? Not a chance. It's sorta like OWL said, perhaps you should resign yourself that you like the drama and addiction and refuse to do anything to help yourself extract from this very demoralizing situation.

 

KG I feel bad for you....I want to help....do you want help or drama?

[Awakening]

KG - this is a bit off topic but when I first started reading your posts a few months back I was trying to figure out if you were American or English because of your use of the language.

 

After reading further I realized that you must have picked up on the style from your MM since he is English.

 

Just a suggestion - you may want to be careful when using English colloquialisms when you are with your MM's mutual friends. They may pick up on it and put two and two together. Especially since it seems that Bob and his wife may already have their suspicions.

[GreenEyedLady]

I find it interesting how you talk about your MM.

 

You aren't protective about him at all; there's no defensiveness in your posts.

 

It makes me question your motivations about being with him.

[NoIDidn't]

I find it interesting how you talk about your MM.

 

You aren't protective about him at all; there's no defensiveness in your posts.

 

It makes me question your motivations about being with him.

 

Wow, this is the first time a poster ever tried to protect *him*.

[GreenEyedLady]

Wow' date=' this is the first time a poster ever tried to protect *him*.[/quote']

 

I'm hoping you are being sarcastic. *crosses fingers*

 

If you want reality interjected in the forum, you can tell how OW feel about their man-just read their posts.

 

I don't get it from this one.

 

Now if you want me to be fake, let me know.

 

I just won't post.

 

GEL

[whichwayisup]

You aren't protective about him at all; there's no defensiveness in your posts.

 

It makes me question your motivations about being with him.

 

I think it may be more like Kismet knows deep down he isn't inlove with her but she's so caught up in how he makes her feel, she lies to herself to keep the fantasy going, but somehow in her writings here, her real belief comes out and she knows (again, deep down) she has to end it eventually..She just isn't ready or isn't willing to face life without him. She's letting fear of life without him rule and that is what makes her weak and why she can't detach let alone break it off with him.

[KismetGirl]

KG - this is a bit off topic but when I first started reading your posts a few months back I was trying to figure out if you were American or English because of your use of the language.

 

After reading further I realized that you must have picked up on the style from your MM since he is English.

 

Just a suggestion - you may want to be careful when using English colloquialisms when you are with your MM's mutual friends. They may pick up on it and put two and two together. Especially since it seems that Bob and his wife may already have their suspicions.

 

:-) Yes I picked up a fair bit of English-speak along the way, but not from him as much as you'd think as he's quite "Americanised" himself by now being in this country for like ten years now (though around me, he tends to use alot more slang from "back home" ;-) , otherwise he tries to tone it down quite a bit because no one can bloody well understand him. Ever spoken to a person from up north? Then you know what I mean. haha. ) but that's because I actually have dated quite a few Brits, one that happened to live in London most of our relationship, and I used to frequent the UK at least 6-9 times a year, if not more. I have a bunch of English friends, both here and abroad, so I guess I just picked it up somewhere along the way and it became habit! Something about "favourite" looks alot better than "favorite" ;-) I doubt that will be the factor that connects me to him , people all joke about how I'm a total anglophile and how I was "born in the wrong country", or some such thing. Oh well.

[KismetGirl]

I find it interesting how you talk about your MM.

 

You aren't protective about him at all; there's no defensiveness in your posts.

 

It makes me question your motivations about being with him.

 

Im not sure I follow you, could you be more specific?

 

I actually thought I often get quite defensive, or used to, and just stopped because MM's tend to be demonized by their very nature, so what's the point. And you know what, I realize his shortcomings. I know he is being selfish, and I know he shoudln't be making so many excuses. Yes, he will put himself at more risk to get caught by all of a sudden telling his wife he's hanging out with people she doesn't know, when he generally doesnt ever go out anymore, but I feel like he should still be able to do it once in a while. He USED to do those things in the beginning, but it's aprtially my fault that I've let him become too comfortable with this whole "routine" we have, where at a certain point I was in work and school 17 hours a day, and I was too busy to hang out much anyway, so I was ok with the brief two hour visits a couple times a week, and this went on for a long time so he got comfortable with not having to make up extra excuses to see me.

 

What other motivations would I have to want to be with him, anyway? I most certainly am not after his money, the man is struggling to make ends meet for his family as it is, and god knows if my plan for life goes accordingly I'll be making five times more than he makes now soon enough, so that's not a motivation. He comes with plenty of baggage, three kids, and all the other mess and side stairs and evil looks I'd get when people undoubtadly learned who I am and what our history was. If I didn't love him for HIM, I have to tell you, the outside factors would all seem to be quite the negative. I can't see what other motivation I would have other than purely , really, just wanting HIM....despite all his faults.

 

So Im not sure Im understanding your comment, let me know if Im getting the gist of it wrong....

[KismetGirl]

I'm hoping you are being sarcastic. *crosses fingers*

 

If you want reality interjected in the forum, you can tell how OW feel about their man-just read their posts.

 

I don't get it from this one.

 

Now if you want me to be fake, let me know.

 

I just won't post.

 

GEL

 

PS- by the way, by my very nature, I get very defensive about my own emotions, so Im not sure if that's why you think I don't act "protective" of him whatveer that means. The same reason I do not call what we have a "relationship", nor do I tell him I love him regularly (have only said it out loud to him, what, twice?), and I don't ask him for blatant explanations of how he feels about me, and in fact told him long ago that it was pointless to tell someone you loved them without intending to do anything about it, because words are wonderful, but at the end of the day I don't want to hear "I love you" coming out of his mouth, and then watching him go home to his family. That would be worse torture, somehow, than what I feel now. I've always been wary of expression of emotions...not because I dont have any (im a very emotional, loving person) but because I feel like people often throw around words of love without really meaning it, start calling peopel their boyfriends after three dates, saying they are in love with someone after knowing them three months, and it kind of sickens me. I won't even call someone my boyfriend until I'e been dating them a minimum of 6 months to a year, even if I haven't been seeing anyone else. Am I making any sense here? It's not that I don't care for him (and BTW, I think I've often defended his actions on here, and people have often argued with me that I shouldnt be), and I often make excuses for him, but it is what it is, and he IS being a bit of a cake-eater, and refuses to acknowledge that four years of cheating on yoru wife , with the same and only woman you've ever done it with no less, means something is up with your marriage. The longer I get hurt by this, the more I try to consciously seperate myself from my feelings for him, and maybe that comes out ins ome of the way I type/post lately. But I know I used to make plenty of "protective" arguments about him quite a bit....I thought I still did, to be honest, but maybe some of my bitterness and resentfulness is starting to come out after four years eh?

[KismetGirl]

I think it may be more like Kismet knows deep down he isn't inlove with her but she's so caught up in how he makes her feel, she lies to herself to keep the fantasy going, but somehow in her writings here, her real belief comes out and she knows (again, deep down) she has to end it eventually..She just isn't ready or isn't willing to face life without him. She's letting fear of life without him rule and that is what makes her weak and why she can't detach let alone break it off with him.

 

Yeah, you are pretty spot on about the "fear of living life without him" thing. It is hard to imagine pushing someone out of your life. When Ive broken up with exes, it was ok. It was weird, to think someone you told you loved at one point, would probably never speak to you again, but you didnt want to be with them anymore so it was acceptable.

 

But when you still care about someone and you feel lost and dissapointed at how it's going and frustrated and delude your subconscious into having occasional secret "hopes" that it will one day be ok....I don't know. It maks it hard to say goodbye.

[wildsoul]

I've always been wary of expression of emotions...not because I dont have any (im a very emotional, loving person) but because I feel like people often throw around words of love without really meaning it, start calling peopel their boyfriends after three dates, saying they are in love with someone after knowing them three months, and it kind of sickens me. I won't even call someone my boyfriend until I'e been dating them a minimum of 6 months to a year, even if I haven't been seeing anyone else. Am I making any sense here?

KG, that's kind of sad to read. It kind of seems like you're so afraid of getting hurt/rejected that you chose a relationship where the hurt is all on the table, right up front, as if being in control of it is somehow safer.

[bentnotbroken]

Yeah, you are pretty spot on about the "fear of living life without him" thing. It is hard to imagine pushing someone out of your life. When Ive broken up with exes, it was ok. It was weird, to think someone you told you loved at one point, would probably never speak to you again, but you didnt want to be with them anymore so it was acceptable.

 

But when you still care about someone and you feel lost and dissapointed at how it's going and frustrated and delude your subconscious into having occasional secret "hopes" that it will one day be ok....I don't know. It maks it hard to say goodbye.

 

 

This isn't directed at you, but speaking for myself, that's how I felt when Mr. Messy pulled his crap. I would wager lots of BS feel this way. You are indeed feeling her pain.

[KismetGirl]

Yeah, you are pretty spot on about the "fear of living life without him" thing. It is hard to imagine pushing someone out of your life. When Ive broken up with exes, it was ok. It was weird, to think someone you told you loved at one point, would probably never speak to you again, but you didnt want to be with them anymore so it was acceptable.

 

But when you still care about someone and you feel lost and dissapointed at how it's going and frustrated and delude your subconscious into having occasional secret "hopes" that it will one day be ok....I don't know. It maks it hard to say goodbye.

 

As far as knowing that he does or doesnt love....I have no idea. I really dont. Sometimes he acts like he does, sometimes he doesnt, I dont know. I think I've sort of figured, at this point, that after all this time he does care about me, but wishes he didn't. Because life for him would be less complicated if he didn't like me, it really would be. Im sure those months we were apart he was relieved not to have to lie every day, and yet, he comes back again. Even for the first couple years, when there was no sex involved, he always came back. So he tries to convince himself that its lack f intimacy that is lacking in his marriage....but for the first two years we didnt have sex. One can't help but wonder why he stuck around then. I guess I wonder why. and moreso, I wish he'd figure out for himself why and actually acknowledge it, rather than trying to avoid dealing with the situation.

[KismetGirl]

KG, that's kind of sad to read. It kind of seems like you're so afraid of getting hurt/rejected that you chose a relationship where the hurt is all on the table, right up front, as if being in control of it is somehow safer.

 

I dunno....I don't pick something like this consciously, thinking, "gee I want a situation where all the hurt is already there", that doesnt make much sense.

 

When I started this nonsense I didnt think much about the future....I just really liked him , we connected, we were out that one night, I got drunk, told him I thought he was cute, and was completely floored when he kissed me. I hadn't felt that way about someone in a while. I was actually in a still in a four year relationship with my ex until that night, and promptly broke up with him a few days later, because I didn't want to cheat on him and kind of knew I didn't want to marry him so instead of lying to him I "set him free", didnt thik there was a point in keeping it going. My head was swimming with these weird emotions about MM, and yes, that exciting "newness" when someone you are incredbly attracted to likes you back. Agh. One thing is for sure...i will NEVER get involved with another MM again. I've been so dissapointed throughout my life I just...I don't know...I'm tired of dating, I'm tired of trying to make things work, of having this idea like if I was in a room with 100 guys and I only wanted one of them, the other 99 of them would like me , and the one I liked would either be f**ked up, be married, have a girlfriend, or just not work out for some other various reason. Just tired, tired, tired. I work and stress and work and stress and work and stress, Im jsut tired.

[KismetGirl]

KG-

 

Another simple question.

 

What do YOU think will convince your MM to file for D and live a truly happy life?

 

And as far as Bob's W...I do NOT get a good vibe. Dunno why...just don't...something seems....off. One thing I already know and do not like...she is a gossip. And if she gossips TO you she also gossips ABOUT you. And this can be very bad for all involved.

 

Well, enough about her...love to hear what you think your MM needs to file for D.

 

Yeah I didnt say much to her that night after we left my house, didn't bring up MM again at all. I guess I can't knw what she says about me to Bob or otherwise when Im not there.

 

But anyway....what do I think MM needs to file for D? Who the hell knows? For his kids to be older? FOr him to win the lottery and be able to afford it? For him to finally realize he is married to a friend instead of someone he's in love with? Him getting past the notion ingrained in his mind since childhood that Divorce is a horrible, terrible thing of epic proprotions that people just can't be normal after? All of the above? I have no effing clue, I really don't. I imagine it is a myriad of factors that would need to fall into place. I think a man who is married and has divorced or is considering it would be better at answering this question than me. This is all speculation on my part...

[KismetGirl]

I agree with OpenBook, Bob's wife is setting you up, watching your reaction. Seeing if you slip up or admit something. Remember, this MM's wife is HER friend and Bob is her husbands bestfriend so Bob's wifes loyalities are with them, not with you..Be careful.

 

Bob is MM's best friend (or one of them anyway), but Im not sure that Bob's wife is necessarily friends with MM's wife. I think they are just friendly via association of their respective husbands. But I get what youre saying, that she could very well just be curious as to whether there is still anything going on and is trying to get me to slip up and let it show that Im still involved wth him, but I dont see her often anymore anyway so I think it'l be ok. This weekend was the first time I've actually hung out with her in a year, at least. Wonder if she said anything to Bob when he picked her up later that night! Haven't spoken to MM this week yet (well its only monday) but I always get so panicky over the weekend, never knowing what's going on (part of the problem). Suspect he will email/cal me tomorrow or some such thing....he already knows Im taking thursday off of work so I suspect I'll see him then....

[KismetGirl]

KG, this is the bottomline that you've continued to avoid.

 

He's not leaving her. He's not going to do anything to improve his relationship with you. He doesn't care about anything beyond getting what he wants here...his wife, and his mistress.

 

Either you like being his mistress enough to continue with things "as is" (in which case, your posts here complaining about the situation are pointless)...or you're not.

 

If you're not...you need to take action to change the situation.

 

It's that simple.

 

And as long as you continue to intentionally try to make it seem more complicated, you're just letting yourself come up with rationalizations and justifications for his poor, boorish behaviors.

 

Either decide that you don't like the situation and take actions to change it...or stop complaining about it and accept that it's what you want...drama and all.

 

I most certainly dont want the drama. Im sick of the drama, it makes me tired, I just want to have a relationship that's...."easy" for lack of better words. Normal!

 

Im not trying to mak it seem more complicated than it is, but its not ALL black and white. Yes, there's the black and white decision of "just end it or dont", but its hard to ignore the rest....

 

But hey, GEL seems to think my posts have taken on a tone of un-protectiveness (is that word?) and bitterness towards him....so maybe I am moving away mentally. Its entirely possible...and I think until I can move away mentally, enough, it'll be hard for me to physically NC with him and make it last. The last few NC's never lasted, because mentally I wasnt' ready for it. Im trying to get my head there.

[KismetGirl]

snip

 

 

 

Yeesh. You sure can miss the point in a really big way.

 

Look, if you are unable to walk away from this guy who is doing nothing for you beyond a good screwing every once in a while, why do you think it will be so easy for her to walk away when she has built a life and family with him? Add to that the fact that he is no doubt telling her the "I love you's" he does not say to you, and why would she be quicker to give up on him than you are?

 

You seem to be all hung up on the fact that you are prettier, better in bed, more interesting, blah, blah, blah. Ok, let's assume you are all that and more. It doesn't matter. He has not chosen to be with you.

 

 

 

Hello, Kismet! Come back to earth. Let's play this one out. She finds out and kicks him out. Never wants anything to do with him again. Are you prepared to have a relationship with a guy who will now be heartsick because he has wrecked his home and damaged his relationship with his kids? Not to mention collateral damage to their friends and his in-laws. He'll be scrambling like mad to pay the child support, spend time with his kids, and appease everyone who will tell him he was a fool to lose it all over a fling. He may well resent you for the outcome, as well as too tired or too stessed to be the lover you know.

 

And he may find you a whole lot less attractive as a potential mother to his kids (albeit on a part-time basis) than once-a-week lover. What will your r/s with him be like when there are small children in the mix and sex is a hurried activity after the kids go to bed and not an all-day romp throughout the house? Have you actually contemplated what day-to-day life with this man would be like?

 

 

 

 

Great. Then let your actions match your words.

 

Yes, I get it, she has way more invested, so it would be infinitely harder for her to walk away, but then, doesn't that work in the other way as well? That even if he wasn't in love with her, that with all he has invested, he wouldn't want to walk away for those reasons as well?

 

Anyway, that doesnt even matter, but then netierh does the following, but I guess I can reflect on it anyway.

 

I have thought about what "life" would be like if he left her to be with me, and it would hard. It would probably suck. But its' not impossible to think it might work out. There ARE relationships born of affairs that have worked out. I've seen them with my own eyes. Perhaps the odds are stacked against it, but its possible. Everything you mention in your post, which I wont re=type again cause its up there, I have thought about it all. About the stress of money while Im a student and he's trying to pay child support and alimony (which to be honest, i dont think he could afford). About the depression of coming home at night, or waking up in the morning, and not having his kids there with him, and him becoming possibly resentful of me, somehow blaming me, and everything else you said. Of going from being a homeowner to probably having to stay with me in my aprtment cause he wouldnt be able to afford rent. To be stigmatized by his and his wife's mutual friends and in=laws. I've thought about all of it. And then he makes me wonder when he starts repeatadly asking me about if I like kids, and how many I want to have, and when I plan on getting married, and what kind of guy I want, and what sort of life I want. It makes me wonder if he's just being "curious", or if he might actually see me as someone who could take on that role one day.

 

So maybe now wouldn't be a good time anyway....and then, I just give up because even in my own thoughts I can't win. I rationalize that I don't want him to leave her now, because I'm not ready to deal with all that yet, and that maybe in a few years would be better for everyone anyway....but what the hell, he won't leave her anyway. I really don't rationally think he will....doesn't even matter what the reasons are. Whether he isn't in love with her, whether its the kids, whether he's just using me ......i dont know anything anymore. If he came to me tomorrow and said "im leaving her" I'd be simultaneously elated and scared as hell.

 

In an ideal world I would want him to get a divorce, remain amicable with his wife, raise their kids together, for him to have time to heal from the relationship, in his OWN apartment, so we could date normally, but it's all a fantasy. I just don't see how that could even reasonably happen right now. *sigh* and he won't do it anyway. he'll stick it out until I let him go, and then maybe he'll miss me, and then maybe he'll figure it out, or maybe it'll take him another ten years.

 

i don't know anything anymore.

[KismetGirl]

KG that was a brilliant reply by Chocolat....really think about that and I'd like to expound on some things.

 

First I think you should be cautious about what Bob's wife told you...it does sound like a fishing expedition but what it could be was a fishing expedition that MM's wife put her up to. It's not out of the realm especially if she's having suspicisions and is looking for proof.

 

See you seem to think she doesn't trust MM for no reason, well we all know there's no truth to that "no reason" right? But you also are coming across that she's just holding on for the family sake surely she must pick up on the distance blah blah blah. That's where it's entirely your speculation and you have no idea what MM says to her behind closed doors. You really need to give her the benefit of the doubt that she is clueless not b/c she wants to stick her head in the sand and not deal with marital troubles but b/c HE convinces her the marriage is A-OK w/him.

 

It's kind of a bit of both, isn't it? Ok, according to MM, his wife hasn't said anything in a long time. Im guessing not since that time she found those photos I sent him. And maybe its not her sticking her head in the sand, nor just him convincing her the marriage is A-OK....to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if they both avoid discussing marital problems and act like everything's cool. Maybe I should ask him. I think they focus most of their time and energy on working two jobs (him), watching the kids during the day (her), then both taking care of them in the evening, stressing over the finances (I know this is a big thing for him lately), and otherwise going about the family's normal routine. But hey, its all speculation on my part, right?

 

I really think that it's him projecting what he feels onto his wife regarding the not stepping out for a drink with you. This is my speculation but there is nothing to say that if he said "I'm going to stop off and have a drink w/a buddy" and she' wouldn't say "great have fun etc..." He's not b/c HE DOESN'T WANT TO....Kismet he's a conflict avoider right? He can't even admit to emotions so you say....what in the world makes you think he's going to be completely honest with you? He knows you can't exactly call her up and say "why won't you let MM out to play?"

 

He only wants you to *think* it's his bad controlling wife that won't let him have any fun not even a drink out with people....seriously you're buying that? The only reason would be to feed your fantasy. Bottom line is for whatever reason he doesn't want to feed that type of connection with you or he would....NO ONE controls another's actions to that degree we're all responsible for our choices and actions and if he WANTED to he would. Put that on a mirror to help you detox from this.

 

Oh no, I don't think she controls him, what I meant was, his excuse is that him suddenly going out with people she doesn't know will make her suspicious and he doesn't want to make himself anxious wondering if she's going to ask more questions about who this person is, why hasn't she heard of him before, etc etc. he's not very good at lying....he's better at avoidance. I think it's a lame excuse, don't get me wrong. It's easy to say he's going into work an hour or two early and stop by my place instead of making up a story about an old coworker that she's never heard of come into town and etc. It seems that she knows all his friends, that he never goes out anymore, she has the passwords to all his facebook and email accounts (well, except for that one "secret" email account he set up to talk to me).

 

It's very clear this is an addiction for you. Kismet use what you know about addictions. People will want what they can't have. That's why this is so potent. But anything we "want" will take on that allure and intoxication. From seeing an object such as a car or a piece of jewelery to an actual person. If you don't just appreciate it for the asthetic and say "that's lovely or he/she is good looking" and move on it's going to fuel and control your thoughts. If you now start to obsess and say "I can't have it, or him/her, but I WANT it" and now you can't stop thinking about it and the what ifs and how great it will be to have X thing then you have the problem.

 

That's why many on here with few exceptions will equate this thing to a rollercoaster....the highs are incredible, like no other...but the lows.....Kismet those highs aren't realistic that's why you'll never meet someone while you are entwined with him....NEVER kismet you can't. A normal r'ship will always, always fall short of this unhealthy high and addiction even thoug it feels good.

 

It's a bit like an addiction, I've admitted that before. But lately i start to wonder about the highs. The low feelings Im getting lately are more pronounced. It's starting to occasionally feel like it isn't worth it anymore, even when I see him in person, and I never used to feel that way. Last time I saw him , last week, it was ok, and then before he left I brought up the whole "why can't you make an excuse to come out with me one night" thing and he started with his paranoia/anxious about gettin caught excuses and I just got frustrated. Normally I might just give it up, but when he tried to kiss me and joke with me I turned my head away and wouldn't let him. He tried to make me smile by saying some such bollocks as I look so cute when Im mad and I just told him he was full of it and he makes me feel like sh*t when he can't just find one normal night to hang out with me. And then I do what I always do....I get so frustrated that my brain shuts down, i don't know what to say, and I just tell him to leave. I let him hug me, he even ran back up the stairs again after he left to kiss me one more time, and normally I'd feel happy seeing him being affectionate, but I swear last week I just felt distant and pi**ed off. I guess thts going in the right direction?

 

My H and I consider ourselves to be happily married. We'll even say we are passionate but no where near that initial eat, sleep and breath each other. .I can watch him work on a project and get those "cool" feelings. But it changes and grows deeper and becomes "different". The chemistry is still there and even though we have developed things we do to keep the spice and fire, the fire isn't always "ON" nor is it normal in a "normal r'ship". He still can give me butterflys but when we're sitting discussing DS's report card, those butterflys ain't there! But the deep love, trust, friendship is always there no matter the activity.

 

I'm saying this and treading carefully b/c I hear you talk about the intensity and the crazy clawing off the ceiling sex that you can't give up. Trust me when I say, I totally get where you're coming from, I'm giving you TMI about my life for a frame of reference. I understand the whole "every night" and 5x on the weekends. We do that too...BUT it's not a given there's not a set pattern. Sometimes there's a plan, sometimes we fall into it and sometimes no matter...life takes over. And you roll with it so although sometimes it is intense,it's not at a constant level 24/7, but it's better than anything I'd ever imagined b/c it's fused with a security....of being able to say and do anything...of having that level of trust. Kismet I hope to ring a bell with you, that what you have with him is pure fantasy, it does't exist on a real world level, that's it's power.

 

Yep. I wish we had the oppurtunity to foster a potentially real relationship, but that's sort of impossible right now. And the way you talk about your marriage? Not even close to how he describes his. His seems to embody purely the "comfort" side of it. The discussing the kid's report card. The friendly, homely comfort ofhaving a wife who he gets along with well, who is a wonderful mother, who his family loves, who he knows won't cheat on him. He knows what he gets, its been almost a decade with the same person, but its only ever been.....comfortable. No butterflies, no spark, no remnants of passion. I know, I know, this is where everyone tells me he wouldn't tell me he has a spark with his wife....but I really don't think they do. I dont expect that a relationship retains this high level of sexual thrill throughout , each day, each year. But I do expect that if you really love someone and have those feelings for them, that you don't start saying, less than two years into your marriage, that you lament that there is simply no "spark" between you and your wife. And then start cheating. And then keep doing it between years 3 through 7 of your marriage, and continue doing it right into year 8.

 

You don't have a trust with MM. Case in point you can't even talk to him about what his thought are on this whole mess. How can you say this is an EA? ...PA absolutely but EA? You guys talk about light stuff. Friends, how you're doing in school, jobs. You'll touch on deep feelings but he'll scramble away. That's not a connection. That's an emotionial avoider.

 

I dont' know if I've expressed that I often avoid these topics as well. Not because I don't trust him, but because I have a tendency to get defensive about disclosing emotions when Im not sure that someone deserves it, because this situation is a little different than your typical dating scenario where I can get to know someone and know that they are as available as I am, and it goes through the regular stages of progression. We've had several discussions regarding emotional aspects of our relationship, and in actuality, when he's brought it up, I've gotten almost....uncomfortable isnt the word. Just frustrated. Because I don't want to hear it. I do, and I don't. I do because I feel that way about him, but I don't because he's not going anywhere and what the hell do I need him telling me he cares about me for when he doesn't do anything to prove it. I'm trying ot mentally seperate myself from him, it's hard...

 

So that brings me to Chocolat's points. Let's just assume all of this is true that he loves but is not "in love" with his wife (btw I agree with that part, you don't show "true" love to someone by cheating on them) I still think he has a messed up definition of love...love is selfless...not selfish.

 

You're right on that one, he has a great confusion between loving someone, being in love with them, and how you should treat those two, and what exactly marriage should be. I think he's confused "friendship" for "marriage". While the latter should be inclusive of the former, the former should not be the entire definition of the latter. That's why you can have great guy friends and not want to marry them....it's different, right?

 

So he misses the mark right there. And also you are lookin for the whys in all of this to make sense, but Kismet affairs cannot be examined by the same logic as a normal r'ship. It can't, it's very nature is secretive the whole set up is flawed so it can't follow normal dating rules logic of love and people's actions.

 

Exactly, like I said above, which is why it's hard to deal with. The "normal" rules don't apply. There is no natural progression through the stages of dating. it's all screwed up, all over the place, avoidant by its very nature.

 

Anyway so she get him by default. Besides the points Chocolat brought up about him being tired and not as "sexy" all the time are likely to be true. Once the "rush" of havig the forbidden and wears off, he and maybe you two are going to need a new high...a new fix. He's cheated before you really trust him? You couldn't talk to him in the beginning about your concerns. So now you're in med school and he's paying out the wazoo for child support, true possibly resenting you, b/c he's lost friends in the process, they've gone to her, b/c he didn't even have the balls to to the decent thing and end things with her when this continued with her...he's been LYING to her for FOUR YEARS.

 

People who respected him now think he's ball-less scum not for the affair...maybe they could forgive him that but for leading a dual cake-eating life b/c he has some sort of entitlement going on. He's depressed now and you try to get him out of it, but it's not working, and the bills and what about when kid's A B and C now need this or that and he feels guilty. Oh and let's not forget the huge possibility of being even more pissed off b/c his wife's met someone who treats her like gold. Looks like it's getting serious and the kids are going to have a new step dad.

 

As I said in my post to Chocolat, Ive thought about all of this and then some. It's not really a concern though. I think at the end of the day, right now, he's not going anywhere so my biggest problem is figuring ou how to mentally get over him. All of the things you and Chocolat have mentioned are shi**ty and hard to deal wth, but have been dealt with by any of a million couples with kids and lives built together who have divorced in the past, and not all those people were screwed up for the rest of their lives. It becomes what it becomes, it is what it is. It's putting the cart before the horse, at this point. If he ever decided to get a divorce I think I might faint from the disbelief. You should see him talk about divorce. As if it's akin to the worst thing a human being can do, or a man can do. It is the epitome of failure.

 

You enjoy in the what if's Kismet....think about that. You honestly think this selfish MM is going to stand for another guy stepping in the dad role? You're only painting the pretty ending where things are "hard" for a time but it'll all work out and the kids will love you (no guarantee there either they may hate you, esp if the truth comes out) Life has a funny way of getting it's lessons across if we refuse to learn them.

 

I admittadly get caught up in the "what if's", but alot of people do I guess. Even moreso I get caught up in the "why's"....as in, why the hell is doing what he's going, why he keeps doing it, etc etc, or , why does he think that he knows what a happy marriage is, when he's been unfaithful for more than half of his?

 

Anyway if thinking about the worse case with him doesn't work. And really the reason you should is look at the treatment of you from him. He does absolutely nothing special for you and avoid conflict and you think you're story will be different with him why? Because of the hot sex? C'mon Kismet you said it when you said this isn't a r'ship why hang on?

 

I also fear at the "tall order" (no pun) that you have for meeting a guy. He's got to be tall, light hair and eyes. Plus rock your sexual world, and make you laugh, be a bit of a goofball, not too serious. You are setting yourself up for failure. It's going to be hard enough to find those physical traits (and you never find what you're looking for if you're looking only when you're not...that's true) but while you have these intense feelings going on? Not a chance. It's sorta like OWL said, perhaps you should resign yourself that you like the drama and addiction and refuse to do anything to help yourself extract from this very demoralizing situation.

 

KG I feel bad for you....I want to help....do you want help or drama?

 

I am sick of drama. I want something to be easy for once. I want to find a way to get over it and I feel stuck. I don't know what anyone can DO to help....I feel like i talk to peple and make the same points and arguments and it all goes in circles, and maybe Im getting closer to that point where I just dont care anymore and Im sick of his bullsh*t and will throw my hands up in the air and just give up. Like, I used to be such that come Monday mroning, I'd be itching to call him and find out when we're meeting up that week, but lately, I am better at not caring so much> Sure, I still like the idea of seeing him, but Im not running to the phone monday mroning to see wht his schedule is. Let him call me, if he wants. I'll stop adjusting my schedule for him, and let him find time to see me when Im available, and then if he doesn't, I have my answer. I'll stop doing special things for him, letting him know I've been thinking of him, giving him that extra thrill.

 

Im sorry if my response isn't that great right now but Im exhausted and have to be at work in five hours and really just wanted to try to at least respond to your long and well thought out post before bed! I'll try to add anything if I can tomorrow when my brain is a little more awake, right now Im about to pass out on my keyboard.

 

But yes, i want help, im just not sure anyone can give it. Advice helps, it pushes me in the right direction, Im just stubborn and don't follow it as head on or as quickly as some people would like. I need to stop with the thinking ahead to "what if" he left her in a couple years, or why he's doing what he's doing, and just try to accept he ain't going anywhere right now, and maybe never will, and he's gotten too comfortable with this, and Im not happy with it as it is....and that something, something, something needs to change. *sigh*

[KismetGirl]

This isn't directed at you, but speaking for myself, that's how I felt when Mr. Messy pulled his crap. I would wager lots of BS feel this way. You are indeed feeling her pain.

 

Which is why, despite what anyone thinks, I haven't told his wife. I have no desire to intentionally hurt a woman I don't even know. And I have never, ever, not even once said to him "I'd like to be with you" or "I'd like you to leave your wife". Never said it. Never will.

 

if h wants to leave her, I dont want it to be because of me. I really dont. If he thinks he is happy where he is, then let him stay there. Nothing good comes out of trying to convince someone they are unhappy with something....they need to acknowledge that on his own. And if he doesnt? Then maybe his wife will never be the wiser, and this A can't last forever (not with me, anyway), and maybe they will grow old and happy together. Who knows. God knows I dont want to be sitting here typing posts in another 4 years about this crap.

[Athena]

As far as knowing that he does or doesnt love....I have no idea. I really dont. Sometimes he acts like he does, sometimes he doesnt, I dont know. I think I've sort of figured, at this point, that after all this time he does care about me, but wishes he didn't. Because life for him would be less complicated if he didn't like me, it really would be. Im sure those months we were apart he was relieved not to have to lie every day, and yet, he comes back again. Even for the first couple years, when there was no sex involved, he always came back. So he tries to convince himself that its lack f intimacy that is lacking in his marriage....but for the first two years we didnt have sex. One can't help but wonder why he stuck around then. I guess I wonder why. and moreso, I wish he'd figure out for himself why and actually acknowledge it, rather than trying to avoid dealing with the situation.

What a moment -- so: You've been with MM for four years, of which the first two were only EA no sex, then for almost one year after that (10mths) you were apart, and then one year now together EA + PA? That's not equal to a full four years of being an A partner... I say throw it in... its not too much of an investment for you to hold out in hope.

[Athena]

And I have never, ever, not even once said to him "I'd like to be with you" or "I'd like you to leave your wife". Never said it. Never will.

 

 

Well, maybe he hasn't seriously entertained THAT idea, because 1) he thoughts of you as 'sex pixie', AND that you have never asked for him!

[Athena]

 

But anyway....what do I think MM needs to file for D? Who the hell knows? (...) For him to finally realize he is married to a friend instead of someone he's in love with?

 

But, according to you, he HAS realized this! And now you've heard about his realization through Bob's W, too....