Invited to same BBQ as MM and his W, WWYD?

[KismetGirl]

I was speaking more of opportunities denied or lost because your heart was not 100% into it. Going on those dates with blinders on is not an accurate way to view anyone.

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. Or maybe we are simply quibbling over the amount or number of posts on/about her. An important point but for this thread it isn't.

 

Still pulling for you KG...

 

True to an extent, I do compare other men to him, or rather, how he makes me feel. I find myself attracted to others physically, for instance, but as soon as they open their mouths Im turned off. Or, I might meet a nice guy, but have no physical attraction whatsoever. How to turn off these feelings for MM? Even when we were apart, the longest being , what....10 months or so, I still thought about him , compared men to him. I was lucky in that I found someone I did like, but I will be the first to admit that it was no coincidence that this other man I dated for almost a year was also tall, English, boyish, funny, with light eyes, a slim build, and many similiar mannerisms to MM.

 

I sit and I actually have daydreams about being free of this feeling. Of being able to tell my friends, hell, to come here and tell all you guys, who by now have become some weird internet family ;-) that yes, Im free! I told him to go away! I just haven't really figured out how to do it yet. I get bouts where I am furious with him, where I want to make him suffer, to scream and yell, to tell him he doesn't deserve me or anything I do for him, that he is giving up on a woman he can actually be happy with....and then i see him and I become , i dont know....passive agressive at best. I forget everything I really wanted to say. This morning, instead of being outright mad, I made some feeble attempt to turn my head when he tried to kiss me and wouldnt let him kiss me or hug me, and told him I wanted him to take my request to have more alone time to hang out seriously and not make excuses on why he cant' see me more ( he says he never goes out for drinks anymore and his wife would be suspicious if he starts going out at night all of a sudden), but I get so sad I try not to cry and the anger I had before dissipates. I become weak in front of him. No one else has ever made me like this. Im a strong, independant person. i do everything for myself, i do everything for everyone else, i never ask anyone for anything.

 

Just this one thing I want for myself and it's just such a mess. Thanks for all yoru continued posts. It may seem like youre all banging your head on a wall, but I need to keep talking, its all that keeps me sane sometimes until I reach that point where I can fix things.

[signedin2008]

Do you ever feel guilty after sex with him?

 

I think it's just so evil to sleep with someone's spouse and potentially wrecking a home where children are involved.

[KismetGirl]

I think that you are the one with your head in the sand on this one.

 

Let me tell you from experience, when you leave him, he will do anything it takes to get you back. And he WILL leave the M.

 

He WILL NOT make love to his W and have a 3rd child with her, that is now under a year old.

 

You are wasting your time and energy.

 

He obviously has everyone right where he wants them.

 

ok, as far as the kids go, no i dont think im too off. The first one was already there when i met him, fair enough. The second one was conceived, unplanned, shortly after i met him and we had only really started an EA, hadn't gotten too physical yet. as i said, the third, also unplanned, was when i wasn't around. His wife wants kids, so she'll f**k him for that purpose. Other than that, she isn't much interested in sex. He loves kids and thought he was doing the right thing by letting the family continue to expland, but he really did not want this last one. Obviously he loves his son, but when me and him started to see each other again, she was probably, what....4 or 5 months pregnant, and when we were sitting and talking and he confessed that there was a third on the way he expressed extreme frustration over it, as he had not wanted another one right now, he didn't think they could afford it, and he didnt want anymore. Granted, he probably shoudl have not slept with her seeing as how she's catholic and won't use birth control, but too late for that now. Three kids are here, not going anywhere. There are far too many factors for him to just up and leave. He can barely afford to support his family as it is, to the point where he wouldn't even pay to get a haircut in over four months because he couldnt spare the 20 bucks to get one until I finally made him sit down and let me do it for him and told him to tell his wife he went to the local place that does free haircuts on certain days when there are students training at the salon. When his car broke down and he thought he might have to pay 400 dollars to fix it, he practically broke down in my apartment and ive never seen him cry in my life. He laments daily about he is one unexpected large expense away from a total disaster. His wife does not want to work, she wants to be a SAHM so he supports her decision to do so because he does think she is a good mom and wants his kids to have someone with them at home. He tries to be a good provider, and a good father. At this time, leaving his marriage would cause infinitely more problems than he could fathom. he is not in a situation, as with some others ive seen, where his wife is a horrible woman, or a bad mother, or abusive, or anything of that sort. The only thing missing from his life is really having a marriage in which he is in love with the woman, and i think deep inside he knows this, but its not reached the "enough" point for him yet. he is too focused on money problems, work problems, running after three little kids when he gets home. It's easy to avoid addressing what's lacking in your marriage when youre so focused on a million other things. I suspect this will change in 5-10 years....but thats a long ways off.

 

I mean, I am not trying to make excuses, and I would LOVE to have him to myself and I still can't imagine how he would make it work rght now, and im on the outside looking in. He can't afford to rent his own apartment, (and I see it as nothing but disaster if he is forced to move in with me right away), and keep his kids and wife in their house, make the mortgage payments, the car payments, all the other bills. Plus, give up the mutual friends, the dissapointing stares of family. It's just all not worth disrupting right now just for the possibility that one day me and him could be happy. It isn't the right time for it, it really isn't. I do not see how any really good man, good father, in his position, would really be able to just leave right now. it sounds like it should be in theory easy, but the logistics of it, and the reality of the situation, make it very difficult.

 

But you are also right- he has everything where he wants it anyway. I don't make him choose. he has his family life, his comfortable home, and then he has me to fulfill his emotional and physical needs, his need for passion and excitement, for someone that shows that she is very attracted to him and WANTS sex with him because he turns her on, not just because she's doing it out of wifely duty and to reproduce.

 

The last time he broke things off with me in December, right before the holidays, he lasted not several weeks before he came back again admitting he missed me. He even tried saying that maybe we could try to just be friends, so that he could still get to see me but not deal with the guilt of cheating. Obviously that didnt work too well, but that's my fault as much as his. I do believe that he really did miss being around me.

 

but this is in large part my fault right? I never ask him to change his life. All I do ask him for is to find a way to spend more time with me, and I feel like if he could do this, I would be happier with the situation as it is for the time being, because I dont think its the right time for him to divorce anyway. That's all I want from him right now- to be able to see him on a semi regular basis, sort of like we used to before the third kid came about and he had to take on the second job and his free time lowered dramatically. Because I do have work and school to focus on, and a middle ground relationship would work for me for the interim.....but he isn't doing that, and that is what bothers me. If I found another man in the meantime that suited me better, I would not oppose the idea, I really wouldn't.

 

I guess I am just hoping, that one way or another....it will work out. He's the first man I have ever really, really fallen in love with. I've had long term relationships before and never felt about them the way I feel about him. The first one that I could imagine being with , and only with, for the rest of my life. Having children with. After over 4 years he still excites me. Not in the way he did four years ago, because he isn't "new" anymore, and he has quirks that anger me, but I still desire him like no one else I've ever met in my life. It is a difficult thing to forget.

[KismetGirl]

Do you ever feel guilty after sex with him?

 

I think it's just so evil to sleep with someone's spouse and potentially wrecking a home where children are involved.

 

I make it a point to not respond to you generally, but the only one wrecking his marriage is him. It's HIS marriage.

 

I feel guilty sometimes. I wouldn't say I'm evil lol. You need a new perception on the word evil. if I'm evil, then you live a very sheltered life. Try working at the hospital where I work, and seeing a six year old girl who you have to talk to while the nurse gives her a rape kit while you get her to admit that her 45 year old uncle has been putting everything from his fingers and penis to household objects in her, then come back and tell me what is "evil".

 

The situation I am in, well, it isn't pleasant, and perhaps not morally astounding, but evil is far from it. Misguided, bad decisions- those apply as well.

 

So yes, i feel guilty sometimes, but guilt alone is usually not enough to make a person able to stop something like this. We're only human.

[KismetGirl]

I think that you are the one with your head in the sand on this one.

 

Let me tell you from experience, when you leave him, he will do anything it takes to get you back. And he WILL leave the M.

 

He WILL NOT make love to his W and have a 3rd child with her, that is now under a year old.

 

You are wasting your time and energy.

 

He obviously has everyone right where he wants them.

 

PS- and i know you were once an OW and it worked out for you, but please remember no two situations are alike, no two men are alike. I do not recall your story, I apologize, and don't recall how long your MM was married, how old he was, how many kids he had, how old they were, or what his financial and social situation was, but these things all have bearing on someone. you are lucky yours gathered the will to change his life so that it benefited you, and I envy you for that. Mine isn't able to do so right now. maybe if I just up and left him he would eventually, but truth be told, I suspect that until the kids are all at least in school and his wife goes back to work, which wont be for ...what....five years....that it'll be very tough.

[signedin2008]

We're only human.

 

That's your excuse? I feel ashamed to be in the same "human" category as people like you.

 

Nevermind, I am waisting my energy. Bye.

[KismetGirl]

That's your excuse? I feel ashamed to be in the same "human" category as people like you.

 

Nevermind, I am waisting my energy. Bye.

 

Oy vey, thank god! I thought I would never be rid of you. Yep, you're in the same human category as those rapists and murderers too. It's good to know we have compassionate people like you that lump everyone who isn't a saint into the same evil category. Now please, keep to your word, and never ever post on my threads again. You are by far the most annoying person on all of loveshack. have a lovely day!

[awkward]

The only thing missing from his life is really having a marriage in which he is in love with the woman, and i think deep inside he knows this, but its not reached the "enough" point for him yet.

 

Didn't he tell you that he is in love with his wife? Do you just not believe him and think that he is living in denial? I thought he told you that the only thing missing in his marriage was good sex.

 

Didn't he tell you that he sleeps with his wife maybe 1 to 2x a week? If she is not using birth control, then there could be another child brought in to this mess. If she got pregnant again, would that be a deal breaker for you?

 

It seems like you give him 110% and he gives you maybe 10%. You are worth so much more than MM gives you. He uses you physically and now emotionally dumps his problems on you. Let him go and see how long his marriage lasts without you there to provide what is missing.

 

Did you ever ask him if he is in love with you?

 

With him asking all these questions about your future, do you think he is falling for you? Please tell me that he doesn't joke around with setting you up with someone he knows. It's just a thought that crossed my mind since he is honest and tells you he isn't going anywhere. If not, I wonder why he is all of a sudden concerned. Have you mentioned being done with the affair?

 

I'm not even sure if you will read this because I suspect you have me on ignore. I've given you a lot of advice, some of it I think was good LOL, but you have never responded. But if you are reading this, I want you to know that I am rooting for you. One day you will be done with this mess and look back and think what a POS your EX-MM was.

[Athena]

I was lucky in that I found someone I did like, but I will be the first to admit that it was no coincidence that this other man I dated for almost a year was also tall, English, boyish, funny, with light eyes, a slim build, and many similiar mannerisms to MM.

 

Are YOU English too?

Anyway, I have a suggestion for you – since you like that kind of man, to open yourself to a larger pool of potential mates, you should plan to go to England right after you are finished with school, and expose yourself to a million English men (as opposed to the million American men that wont do), since clearly there's something in that type you like, so go check it out, and bring your prince home with you.

 

 

Just because someone is a nice guy, does not make him a good potential mate for me.

 

Yes, but on the other hand, MM is also not a good potential mate for you either!

 

 

 

***************************

What is stopping you from ending it?

 

million dollar question. Wish I knew. Could be many things i guess. Fear (...)

 

 

I guess I am just hoping, that one way or another....it will work out.

****************************

 

Yes -- just as I imagined -- what is stopping you from ending it --> is HOPE. That ethereal, possible future with him. But you don't have the wonderful, happy relationship you want now. And, you haven't had it in the past four years with him either. You have never had the relationship as you wanted it with him, ever. And yet -- you are HOPING for a better relationship with him... one where you can go out in public with him. One where you can spend more time with him. One where you can have kids with him. One where he wont be considering his first wife and how to be there for her.

You have nothing of what you want now, except once-a-week sex, and frankly, for a woman with a high sex drive, hell that's not going to cut it!!! Even I have seven times more sex than that with my H of 22 years!!! Yes, passion and all... and yet you 'settle' for a weekly tryst.

 

He's the first man (...) that I could imagine being with , and only with, for the rest of my life. Having children with.

 

If he can barely afford these three kids of his now, how excited and willing would he be to have MORE kids with YOU?! Or -- is that something else you will willingly put aside for him, one more wish/dream of yours to shelve for him?

Even if you finish up your residency and earn a good salary to make ends meet, how do you know for sure he is going to want more kids.... he may say he likes kids, but more likely than not, he's done with them now! Even if he says he would have some with YOU now, he may change his mind if and when the day comes... you cant know for sure...

 

Another thing: Truly, you are focused on the wrong issue... you are looking at all the What Ifs, instead of the facts of the here-and-now relationship that you have with him in actuality, and have had with him for four years! This is the pattern. Why would you want to be miserable for the majority of the time, now? This is your life. You must take control and make a decision for your own good. Not for his good. Not for the hopeful possible future-enlightening moment he might have... but for YOUR own good.

What decision could you make today, that would give you the better outcome in ten years time?

Think it over carefully.

[KismetGirl]

Didn't he tell you that he is in love with his wife? Do you just not believe him and think that he is living in denial? I thought he told you that the only thing missing in his marriage was good sex.

 

Didn't he tell you that he sleeps with his wife maybe 1 to 2x a week? If she is not using birth control, then there could be another child brought in to this mess. If she got pregnant again, would that be a deal breaker for you?

 

It seems like you give him 110% and he gives you maybe 10%. You are worth so much more than MM gives you. He uses you physically and now emotionally dumps his problems on you. Let him go and see how long his marriage lasts without you there to provide what is missing.

 

Did you ever ask him if he is in love with you?

 

He's never said he's in love with his wife. He's said she's a good mom, she's comfortable, she feels like home, she's a good woman, things of this nature, but that there is no spark and no passion and no intimacy and that their sex life is essentially sh*te. You can't help but love someone you've been with for like 8 years and who is mom to your kids, so Im pretty sure he loves her, just like he'd love a family member. A familial love, but not the kind of love I would hope a husband should have reserved specially for his wife. I do not think he is in denial about loving her, per say, as much as I believe he is in denial about what a "good" marriage really is. He does not stop to consider that you don't cheat on your wife for over half your marriage if it is that great. He compartmentalizes things, and makes himself believe that because they get along, and don't excessively argue, and are both good parents, and otherwise get along well, that they have a good marriage. Essentially, he married a friend. or his mother. He came to this country from the UK, and married a nice Irish_american girl , with the same name as his mother, I might add, who reminded him of home and made him feel comfortable. He most certainly did not marry a lover or a woman he was in love with. He married someone he was comfortable with, by his own admission. he just hasn't connected the fact that loving someone familialy, and being in love with them, are two very different things. We talk about this sometimes, in a general sense, like when he is asking me about MY love life, and I don't think he wants to acknlowedge it, because after three kids, a house and 8 years together, who wants to admit they married the wrong person?

 

He did tell me at one time long ago that she would sleep with him maybe once a week if he asked, but lately Im not so sure if that's the case. maybe because they don't want another kid right now, and she doesnt use birth control, maybe, they aren't having sex like before? Because when I did not see him for about three weeks recently due to varying schedule conflicts, he called me several times expressing how frustrated he was without his "weekly visits", he seriously sounded frazzled on the phone, saying that he was stressed with work and the kids and the only repreive he gets is me and since I hadn't had time to see him he was trying to contain his sexual frustrations by using his picture collection (he has loads of photos of me hidden away in a secret email, which he uses when he masturbates I guess, late at night when everyone's asleep. I kind of let him have fun with it when we're together, we often take pictures. That might gross some women out but its kind of flattering to me. Maybe Im a little kinky? Whatever. All men like porn, and I think its kind of nice when a man gets so turned on by YOU that pictures of you is all he needs lol. Personally I think I've put on a few pounds lately and he still thinks im gorgeous, which is always nice) Anyway, if he was getting it every week from her on a regular basis I don't see why he'd be so frustrated not seeing me for just a couple weeks. So dunno. Maybe he got tired of having to beg and plead with her just to have her lay there bored waiting for him to finish, or maybe its as I stated above and they arent really doing it because he doesn't want anymore kids right now. Could be either, or both.

 

As for other questions....no, never asked him if he loves me. I feel like love is a sacred sort of emotion, and since he can't give me the full relationship deserving of that word, i dont bring up that particular word very much, if at all. I've said it to him maybe....twice? Twice in four plus years. Of course I love him more than words can express, but I never say it out loud to him. Once when he broke up with me and I figured it didnt matter anymore if I said it or not, and once in a sort of off-topic way where I told him don't bother concerning himself with the "love" topic. I get very defensive and sarcastic regarding this topic with him sometimes, its difficult for me to approach it for these reasons. He will not offer this type of information because, as stupid as he can act sometimes, I think he knows that saying it to me , even if he means it, is almost unfair. How can you tell someone you love them, and then act the way he's been acting? "I love you. By the way, Im going back home to my wife now. Also, i can't see you on friday night because i dont want to get caught by my wife". It's just not appropriate to say it, almost. If you are going to tell me you love me, then act like it, and if you can't, then don't say it to me. Am I making any sense?

 

I told him once that if she got pregnant again I couldn't handle it anymore. He said he wasn't planning on having any more kids anytime soon. If she gets pregnant again....I don't think I could handle it. I'd be out. I just can't do it again. When he told me about the second child, it was only a couple months into our EA and I was devastated enough. Ran out of the office crying, sat on the front stoop crying hysterically as my co workers tried to console me (they thought I was crying about a surgery I had to have soon) while he stood on the side of the building with one of the construction guys working on the building, smoking a cigarette (he NEVER smokes) and looking at me crying with a distraught look on his face. Fast forward to last year when after a year of not seeing me, he stops by my apartment after having lunch one day to catch up. When he sort of slipped about the third child on the way after that nearly year long period of NC, I very nearly then stopped it again, but had missed him so much after not seeing him for a long time, and I had just broken up with someone else who I actually did like, and was very emotional and liked having him around again. But another pregnancy....no I coudln't deal with that. I would hope they wouldn't do that anyway....would be rather fiscally irresponsible seeing as how they can barely support the three they have now.

 

With him asking all these questions about your future, do you think he is falling for you? Please tell me that he doesn't joke around with setting you up with someone he knows. It's just a thought that crossed my mind since he is honest and tells you he isn't going anywhere. If not, I wonder why he is all of a sudden concerned. Have you mentioned being done with the affair?

 

I don't know. I have never mentioned ending the affair right now, but I have implied that if I find someone serious to date I wouldn't need him anymore. He's asked me if I would still see him if I got married and i didn't really answer, because honestly, if I get married, its because I am in love with someone, so why will I need him? After all this time, he is still very difficult to read. He is both terrible at hiding the fact that something is on his mind, and at the same time it is very hard to discern what exactly that something is. There is another guy that works with him , that I used to work with, who has liked me for sme time and over the last six months has been trying even harder than usual to get me to go out with him. This other guy is going through a seperation, so he's not divorced yet, but is on his way there. I don't have a romantic interest in this other guy, but I did tell MM about it to see how he'd react and as nonchalant as he acts about it, saying "go ahead if you want to", he asks me constantly if the guy has asked me out again recently, and will I go out with him, and etc etc etc. He makes jokes about how if me and this other guy end up getting married he'll be my bridesmaid. I told him my male roomate from college happened to come up to visit unexpectadly this weekend and it was like "old times", and right away he was asking "what do you mean old times? did he sleep in your room? what did you guys do?" he never used to act quite as interested in the details of me and other men. He often starts to ask me about my love life , and then stops himself and mumbles "forget it, I probably dont want to know." I let him assume that maybe there are some other guys around Im dating, even though Im not, and Im certainly not sleeping with anyone else. I wouldn't put him (or his wife for that matter) at risk for STD's by sleeping with other men while I sleep with him, especially as we don't use condoms anymore (whole other topic, im sure no one approves of this bit, yes im on birth control, which I might add, he never asked me if I was on! You'd think he'd want to know i was on BC right away...nope, never asked, I told him I was on it months and months later). He has recently started asking me questions randomly in conversations about my own romantic future, and asking if I even want to get married and when I say "yes, but to the right person" he says "really, you want the whole deal? Husband, kids, white picket fence?" and when I say yes, that i want the whole deal, maybe even three kids, but I refuse to settle for just anyone, that I want a man I have passion AND comfort with, he gets quiet, as if he is surprised that I want all these things. He loves my "free-spirited nature", as he calls it, but I think only this past 6 months to a year has he really started to look at me as not just some young carefree single woman, but someone who will potentially be a wife and mother myself one day, except he also sees that I am a passionate person, and he obviously knows my veiws and attitudes towards sex, and perhaps is almost jealous that when I end up with a man, he will not be frustrated in the manner that MM is frustrated with his wife. I think he never wanted to view me as that potential wife/mother type of girl, that he could keep me seperate in his head from that sort of role, and now he is starting to see me as someone who will be that one day, and it confuses him. He wants to still believe that a wife is your companion and your kid's mother and that it's just a fact of life that wives are un-sexy, uninterested in intimacy, as if they are some seperate species of women. Tht makes it easier for him to accept that what he has with his wife is "normal for married people". Whether he has fallen for me I suppose I won't know unless I ask, but I would not be surprised by it. We've gotten to know each other ALOT more over the last year, incredibly more than we did the first three years when it was almost that "polite" phase of getting to know someone , but you dont really know them at all.

 

I'm not even sure if you will read this because I suspect you have me on ignore. I've given you a lot of advice, some of it I think was good LOL, but you have never responded. But if you are reading this, I want you to know that I am rooting for you. One day you will be done with this mess and look back and think what a POS your EX-MM was.

 

Nope I dont have you on ignore, I have no idea how to do that. That SignedIn2008 person is a royal pain in the arse, I'd like to ignore him or her.

 

sorry this ended up bveing so long of a response! I guess I have alot on my mind.

I hope you are right. I hope I look back and realize this was a learning experience like any other, and I hope I do find that person with that combination of passion and comfort that I truly believe is what a spouse should be. After looking at the failures in couples around me, and all the people that cheat, including my own parents' problems when they were married, i hope i take that knowledge with me to my own marriage one day. To say that I didn't secretly hope that maybe MM WOULD be who I ended up happily with would be a lie, but either way I don't want to settle.

 

Only second to ending up totally alone, is my fear that I will end up like so many others I see around me. Settling for familial comfort, raising a family and desperately craving the passion that I know is possible between two people. I don't know which is worse.....be alone or be like MM. I guess both have their downfalls. I have never cheated on a partner before in my life, and I don't intend to ever do so in the future.

 

I just want to be happy. It feels like it's been a long time since I've been happy.

[KismetGirl]

Are YOU English too?

Anyway, I have a suggestion for you – since you like that kind of man, to open yourself to a larger pool of potential mates, you should plan to go to England right after you are finished with school, and expose yourself to a million English men (as opposed to the million American men that wont do), since clearly there's something in that type you like, so go check it out, and bring your prince home with you.

 

Ah, no, I am not english. If i was I probably wouldnt care if he was! ;-) I have a bit of an English-fetish, I admit it. I always did like them, but after MM, it became full blown. It's like Im barely attracted to American guys anymore! Its not just the accent though really (though christ, does that make me melt. Well, most of them anyway. Some areas of England have horrid accents, just like any other country ;-) ), and its not like ANY english guy will do! Just that overall sarcastic sense of humour, the tendency to be more in-tune with worldly knowledge (as let's admit, us Americans have a tendency to be nary concerned with that which happens outside our own country), and of the English guys I hate dated (and there have been quite a few now....probably over a dozen) they seemed to have been more giving in bed, more affectionate, better traveled, and many other things. I used to go over to the UK quite often but havent in a long time....I found a visa Im eligible for, but with the crappy economy, and my own finances being tight right now, its sort of difficult to up and move over there. Finding a job when you aren't there is really difficult. Hell, finding a job when you ARE there is difficult right now. Don't think I didn't think of that before Athena! :-) I had intended to move over there for a year just to try out living overseas, travel around a bit, and yes, hopefully meet a nice guy who might want to come back here! But unfortunately unless I find a good paying job , I cant go there. London is very expensive, and that's where I'd want to be and where I know some people/friends. I am quite settled in NY with a great apartment that is rent-stabilized in a fab neighborhood and a car and family and friends nearby, and while Im not rich (yet ;-) ) I am comfortable to an extent that I can pay my bills and still be able to go out and etc, and i can't give up all that stability to move to London when I dont even have a good job lined up. Im not moving over there so I can be begging on the streets on weekends or having to live in some crap neighbourhood and struggling to pay for everything! Money is such bollocks. Stands in the way of everything! If anyone reading this feels like giving me a job over there, let me know, I have a visa that I can have ready to go ! Very educated and intelligent woman over here, don't let my craziness on here fool you! :-)

 

 

Yes, but on the other hand, MM is also not a good potential mate for you either!

 

Touche. He's not a good mate, however, because of one element, and it has nothing to do with his personality. If he wasn't married, he'd be perfect. Well, I mean, no one is perfect, but for me, it would have been great as a match. He still could have potential if he got divorced, but I guess we know that probably isnt' happening anytime in the next 5-10 years. I just hope he wakes up in 15 years when his kids are grown and thinks about me and just regrets missing out on me just a little.

 

 

****************************

 

Yes -- just as I imagined -- what is stopping you from ending it --> is HOPE. That ethereal, possible future with him. But you don't have the wonderful, happy relationship you want now. And, you haven't had it in the past four years with him either. You have never had the relationship as you wanted it with him, ever. And yet -- you are HOPING for a better relationship with him... one where you can go out in public with him. One where you can spend more time with him. One where you can have kids with him. One where he wont be considering his first wife and how to be there for her.

You have nothing of what you want now, except once-a-week sex, and frankly, for a woman with a high sex drive, hell that's not going to cut it!!! Even I have seven times more sex than that with my H of 22 years!!! Yes, passion and all... and yet you 'settle' for a weekly tryst.

 

Oh god no, once a week isn't enough for me. Even when I was in a long term relationship with someone I didn't have much romantic interest in after a while, but I loved and cared for him , the sex reduced in frequency and it was still at least 5 times a week. When Im actually happy with someone, forget it, its at least once a day, more than once on weekends and when Im not ridiculously tired ;-) I think my record for the last time I visited my ex-boyfriend in London was 62 times in 6 days (poor lad could barely keep up. oh well, i was on vacation :-) ) But what to do? My days of sleeping around and one night stand experiments are done with, been there, done that in college, not my bag of tea anymore. I've tried to just have a sexual relationship with guys in the last 4 years thinking it would be at least a physical satiation, but if I don't really, really have feelings for them, it rarely is that good. I've to a point where I almost need that mental connection with someone. And even though its not as often as I would like (on bad weeks once a week, on better weeks maybe three times a week), sex with MM is absolutely, clawing-off-the-ceiling amazing. The type where you're entwined with each other into one person and can't do more than shiver and shudder and try to breathe normally again afterwards and your whole body is prickles of sensitivity and eroticism. Woosh! Let me tell you, that is hard to find with someone. Another reason he is so hard to let go of....

 

If he can barely afford these three kids of his now, how excited and willing would he be to have MORE kids with YOU?! Or -- is that something else you will willingly put aside for him, one more wish/dream of yours to shelve for him?

Even if you finish up your residency and earn a good salary to make ends meet, how do you know for sure he is going to want more kids.... he may say he likes kids, but more likely than not, he's done with them now! Even if he says he would have some with YOU now, he may change his mind if and when the day comes... you cant know for sure...

 

Well, he's said he doesnt want more kids now (im guessing mostly because of the money situation, but maybe there are other reasons) he has said he might want more in the future. He does love kids. I dont think this even warrants thinking about now, though. If it ever came to a point where he told me he wanted to consider a relationship with me I'd be clear that I want a family of my own and all that, and if he didn't , then sadly it wouldn't work. I want my own kids. And same goes for him being abel to afford them.....IF we ever came to that point, firstly I would imagine his wife would need to get her own job again at some point (she did used to work, when there was only one kid), which would ease up on his burden, but I've always been independant and fully intend to make more than he makes now anyway. Fingers crossed that I finish school properly and become a doctor, I dont think salary will be much of an issue on my end. But as I said, none of this even matters now....this only becomes an issue if he and I ever had relationship potential, and at this time, we dont.

 

Another thing: Truly, you are focused on the wrong issue... you are looking at all the What Ifs, instead of the facts of the here-and-now relationship that you have with him in actuality, and have had with him for four years! This is the pattern. Why would you want to be miserable for the majority of the time, now? This is your life. You must take control and make a decision for your own good. Not for his good. Not for the hopeful possible future-enlightening moment he might have... but for YOUR own good.

What decision could you make today, that would give you the better outcome in ten years time?

Think it over carefully.

 

Its hard NOT to be focused on "what if's" though sometimes isnt it? Decisions decisions. The relationship has ebbed and flowed over the four years, and it isnt the same as it was when it started. Bizarre in that, in the beginning, there was less emotion involved, but we saw each other more ofthen, worked together, hung out after work....and also he lived closer and had the one child then. Now , there's more emotion involved, but we dont get to see each other as much outside, dont work together anymore, and his time is incredibly more constrained due to three kids, living almost an hour and a half away from me now, and having a second job that he took on. Gets confusing sometimes and i cant help but think "what if". I know I need to change something....this can't go on forever. Im not sure I can totally end it yet, but I think I do need to give some kind of ultimatum to at least make myself somewhat happier with the situation. He needs to stop making excuses about fearing "getting caught" and find a way to see me more often, or not bother at all. This morning when I got into that argument about why couldnt he just tell his wife he was meeting coworkers aftere work for a drink so he could see me, he uses his excuse of "i get worried she'll be suspicious, i never go otu for drinks or go out anymore, it will be out of character, i'll have to be lying more". So its ok to lie and say he is going into work a couple hours earlier, and see me those couple hours before work, but not to say he's staying after work a couple hours later to have a drink? Doesnt make sense. he needs to get over it. At least that much, and we'll go from there. Im getting delirious now and probably not making sense any more as Im tired as hell, so Im off to bed now. Thanks for the responses, genuinly, thanks.

[norajane]

I sit and I actually have daydreams about being free of this feeling. Of being able to tell my friends, hell, to come here and tell all you guys, who by now have become some weird internet family ;-) that yes, Im free! I told him to go away!

 

You have it all backwards. It doesn't work that way.

 

You have to tell him to go away FIRST, and mean it. THEN, after you do the hard work of dealing with the heartbreak, letting go of hope, and letting it all go, only THEN will you be free of these feelings you have for him.

 

You can't expect to become free of feeling for him while you're still with him and still fueling your obsession and hope. If you wait until you have no feelings for him to tell him to go away, you will still be waiting 4 more years from now.

 

And you have to do all that hard work of letting go and becoming whole again emotionally before you will truly be open to falling in love with someone else. No one else will ever feel quite right while you are still seeing MM. He fulfills just enough of your emotional and physical needs, that you'd rather pin your hopes on his coming around than do the hard work that it takes to let someone else into your heart.

[awkward]

I hope you are right. I hope I look back and realize this was a learning experience like any other, and I hope I do find that person with that combination of passion and comfort that I truly believe is what a spouse should be.

 

Only second to ending up totally alone, is my fear that I will end up like so many others I see around me. Settling for familial comfort, raising a family and desperately craving the passion that I know is possible between two people. I don't know which is worse.....be alone or be like MM. I guess both have their downfalls.

 

Passion and comfort like you described is the key. His wife gives him the comfort and you give him the passion. He is never forced to choose between the two. I know this part is going to sound really witchy, but it isn't meant that way. KG if he was forced to choose, he isn't going to choose you. Some men do, but your MM isn't one of them. Perhaps this is why, even though you believe he is the love of your life, that you have never made him choose. You know it's the same as ending it.

 

I asked my husband why someone would stay in a marriage where there was comfort but no passion. He said that well maybe they are happy with everything else in their life and don't want things to change because they are generally happy. Then he said, maybe they'd have an affair on the side to get the passion.

 

After reading here on LS, I believe that this is how many men think and probably why so many don't leave their wives. Actually, I think many women feel this way too.

 

Relationship change over time. If you wait 5 to 6 years, he still may not be there for you.

 

My own relationship has been evolving the entire time my husband and I have been together. When my husband and I were HS sweethearts we were more about the passion. After our son was born I think it was more about the comfort. We still had sex several times a week, but it wasn't on the kitchen counter type of thing or things we do now that we didn't even know were possible back then. We were young parents and struggled financially so I think we had more passion when arguing at that time than in bed. As our son got older, I believe the passion and comfort were equal. Now that our son is almost an adult, our marriage has evolved further. I think we're more connected physically and emotionally than we were when we were HS sweethearts. It's probably because we spent 20 years growing and maturing together.

 

I know that one day you will find what you are looking for. I know from everything you said about MM that he isn't the one. Even if he did leave his wife, there is no doubt in my mind that you would dump MM within 6 months to a year. He is a broken man who hasn't worked on his issues that led him to seek out what was missing in his marriage rather than working on fixing his marriage or ending it. He is unattainable for you which probably makes you want him more. Do your friends ever ask you what you see in him? Do other people think he is as special as you do?

 

I just want to be happy. It feels like it's been a long time since I've been happy.

 

This part is the saddest part. I don't even know you but I can read your pain in that statement. I just want you to be happy too. ((KG)) he can't make you happy. He just isn't the man you want him to be nor is he capable of giving you what you deserve.

 

Before when I read your posts I thought your affair would never end unless his wife found out. But now, I believe you are on your way. It's been a long time since you've been happy. Change that tomorrow. Think about him a little less. See him a little less. Let a few of his calls go to VM. Take baby steps until you are able to run. Once you muster up the courage, run as fast as you can. Let MM be the one longing for what might have been.

 

ETA: After you run and are really done, this is when MM will pull the love card and any other tricks he can think of to pull you back in.

[burning 4 revenge]

It really depends on the food

[burning 4 revenge]

Don't go to the barbecue. Its just not worth it unless you are looking for drama.

It might be

 

Have you ever had a Hebrew National hot dog grilled on charcoal with the black grill marks on them, then covered in yellow mustard, chopped onion, sport peppers and bright green relish on a poppy seed bun?

 

Or juicy charcoal grilled chicken in a sweet and tangy BBQ sauce with a side of sweet corn on the cob, some baked beans and a cold German pilsner?

[Billie63]

Kismet, if he divorced her, would his residency rights be affected? I'm wondering if he is vaguely thinking about his future - if he divorced her and quickly married you he would be able to stay in the country surely? Maybe that's why he's questioning you about your future plans?

 

His position is not impossible. Men like him have left their marriages to be with the woman they truly loved. Sure, it came with a lot of trouble but it is not unknown. Also one day you will be earning a lot of money, your money would help him run two homes. I can't say I'd be happy to support another woman's kids but if you really love him, well, nothing is insurmountable is it?

[KismetGirl]

Kismet, if he divorced her, would his residency rights be affected? I'm wondering if he is vaguely thinking about his future - if he divorced her and quickly married you he would be able to stay in the country surely? Maybe that's why he's questioning you about your future plans?

 

His position is not impossible. Men like him have left their marriages to be with the woman they truly loved. Sure, it came with a lot of trouble but it is not unknown. Also one day you will be earning a lot of money, your money would help him run two homes. I can't say I'd be happy to support another woman's kids but if you really love him, well, nothing is insurmountable is it?

 

No.....he's been married well over 5 years, I think that's all you need in this country to stay here. And I would imagine having three kids and a house together wold be enough proof otherwise that the marriage isn't a "sham". God knows why he asks me all those questions....as I said, maybe he's just shocked to find himself thinking of me as more than just a carefree sex-pixie nowadays.

 

I think he does not leave for the plethora of other reasons I always state really....it's really just inconvenient to too many levels, it would hurt too many people, it would be unmanageable financially for him and his kids and wife as she's not working and only one kid is in school yet, and he's just not unhappy enough to want to disrupt everything, give up the house that he's always spending every weekend working on....to do what.....move into my one bedroom apartment? risk it on a relationship that may or may not work out, when even if he's not in love now, his marriage "works" to every other level? He's not mentally open to that option yet and I don't know if he ever will be. In addition, the more I learn about his family and religious background, the more it makes sense why he seems to view divorce as also such a failure on the parts of the people involved. When I mentioned one of our mutual aquaintances had secretly told me he and his wife were sepereated for some time now, MM looked horrified, kept saying, "but his wife is such a nice woman" and etc. I kept saying, "it's irrelevant if she's a nice woman, maybe they were just not meant to be married." and he has no answer, because his parents got married when his mother got pregnant, and have stayed married in a very amicable way despite no apparent affection, and you live what you learn and this is what he learned growing up was a "good" marriage- one in which the couple gets alone well, raises the children well, are friends, and if the passion isnt there, well, that's just "normal for a married couple". get what im saying?

 

If I was him, and a man, I might not see it as being worth "risking it all" either anyway. Men aren't generally that....emotional about it. Some are. Most are not. Stability is important, and he better be ridiculously unhappy to want to give that up. And he isn't. In his mind, the only part of their marriage that is lacking is the intimacy factor, and that isn't enough for him to be portrayed as the "bag guy" yet- the bad father, the bad husband. For all intensive purposes everyone thinks he's a great father and husband. That combined with all of the above....well, I think it's going to take a severe "wake up moment" for him one day to realize he's not fully happy. But it's not something anyone can make anyone else acknowledge, is it....

[bentnotbroken]

Kis, it is apparent through all of your post that this situation is going to continue and it is okay with you. You aren't happy about but it is okay with you. Why...you are still in it, right smack in the middle. You say you don't know how to move on. Yet you really do, you just don't want to. You want to wait until there is nothing left of yourself to salvage. You want to wait until the shell of your life is totally void of anything that remotely resembled you before you got involve with this person.

 

Anything that is killing us, we tend to fight tooth and nail to survive. But not you, you seem so, so.....apathetic. So ready to let the outside stimuli control your life instead of you controlling what happens to you. Over and over I have read you can't control your feelings, indeed you can't when you allow them to control you. But you can control your actions no matter what the feelings are. We do it everyday. When the person at the check out is rude and obnoxious and you want to do the same or worse, but you don't. That's controlling your actions. When you have to sit with a child who is having a rape kit done and you want to rip the perpetrator a new one, but you don't, you let the legal system handle it, that's controlling your actions. When you should tell the om's wife that he is still not being faithful to her, but you don't that is controlling your actions. If your physical life were on the line, you can't tell me that you wouldn't fight to live. So why not fight for your emotional and mental life? Ultimately they lead to the down fall of the physical. You aren't fighting to change your life. 4 years, 2 more children and you still on this board aren't enough to get you to fight?

 

Your feelings for this person shouldn't be the determinate of how you choose to live the rest of your life, but you are letting those feelings do the job for you. No action on your part is speaking volumes about what you think of yourself. The myth of your feelings being the ultimate ruling decision of how we live our lives would result in chaos and anarchy. You are in control....you just don't want to be.

[2sure]

Kismit - Ive got one thing I'd like to pass onto you .

 

When I was seeing MM (4 years) I dated others, available men. It seemed I could never meet anyone with whom I had enough chemistry, etc. even though I wanted to.

 

YOU will not meet anyone until you are truly done with MM. Its not that you arent meeting the right guys and its not that you dont want to...there can be no chemistry between you and another man until MM is gone.

 

One day - when you put MM behind you - you are going to slap yourself up side the head.

[Owl]

KG...I would offer one final bit of thought for you on this whole subject.

 

You've commented that MM is "right where he wants to be".

 

I'd suggest that you strongly consider that the exact same thing applies to you.

 

You are right where YOU want to be.

 

Either embrace it and lose the stress over wanting change...or do something about it.

[whichwayisup]

All I can say is, when YOU want to move on and let go, you will. Until you've suffered enough..Then you'll end it.

 

Problem is, at what expense? My concern for you is, you're going to let this guy ruin your upcoming medical career, all for nothing. All for a man who isn't inlove with you, a man who has no intention of leaving his wife. Ever.. He's selfish and loves having two women meet all his needs, why on earth would he want to give one of you up? You will stay the OW for as long as you want to..He won't end it, there's no reason for him to.

 

Kis, you're smart, you're young and have sooo much infront of you, I just wish that you would dump his @ss and get on with YOUR life.

[Awakening]

This guy has you snowed. It is evident in your need to write posts justifying why he stays with his wife.

 

The only thing you know about his marriage is what he has told you. My suspicion is that the reality is totally different. He's very good at pushing your buttons and using your sympathy to keep you exactly where he wants you. He is a master manipulator. He is a liar.

 

It makes me sick that someone would use a young lady the way he has used you. But only you can change that now.

 

His actions show exactly how he feels but you are so far into the fog you cannot even interpret them correctly and instead twist the facts to fit your need to keep the hope alive.

 

Bottom line - this is going to end disastrously if you don't wake up and get the hell away from him.

 

I want the best for you. Your life is just beginning and you don't even realize it.

[jwi71]

....I found a visa Im eligible for, but with the crappy economy, and my own finances being tight right now, its sort of difficult to up and move over there. Finding a job when you aren't there is really difficult. Hell, finding a job when you ARE there is difficult right now. ... I had intended to move over there for a year just to try out living overseas, travel around a bit...

 

What happened to Med School?

Have you abandoned your dream of being a doctor? Why?

[Athena]

Over and over I have read you can't control your feelings, indeed you can't when you allow them to control you. But you can control your actions no matter what the feelings are. We do it everyday.

 

Kismet, I agree with bentnotbroken's post completely: you are waiting for the time when you feel emotionally ready to break it off with him, but in reality you need to break it off with him now so that you can emotionally heal. The longer you allow this A (which is going Nowhere) to continue, the more you end up damaging yourself in many ways.

 

I realize that you don't want to put yourself into pain (short-term) willingly, but how do you explain hanging on?

You are a doctor -- would you let cancer riddle the whole body over time, or take immediate steps to excise it in the body part its in?

[KismetGirl]

What happened to Med School?

Have you abandoned your dream of being a doctor? Why?

 

No, no, not abandoned, just really wanted to try living overseas for a year, you know. It's always possibel to take a year sabbatical from school. Wasn't sure I'd ever have that chance again after med school considering I'll be like 32 when I graduate, then residency, and assuming (hopefully) I find some nice single lad around that time to start a family with, living the overseas carefree single life would probably be a dream at best. So I kind of wanted to try it now. But as with every other effing thing I want for myself, something prohibits me (in the case of moving, its money. Hateful, hateful money. bah.)