Invited to same BBQ as MM and his W, WWYD?

[KismetGirl]

Kismet, I agree with bentnotbroken's post completely: you are waiting for the time when you feel emotionally ready to break it off with him, but in reality you need to break it off with him now so that you can emotionally heal. The longer you allow this A (which is going Nowhere) to continue, the more you end up damaging yourself in many ways.

 

I realize that you don't want to put yourself into pain (short-term) willingly, but how do you explain hanging on?

You are a doctor -- would you let cancer riddle the whole body over time, or take immediate steps to excise it in the body part its in?

 

Cancer seems more of a tangible thing to attack, even though in reality you obviously have less control over malignant tissue than your own actions, but sometimes my brain is my own prison.....just get frozen and can't do it sometimes. When I don't see him I alternate between sadness and total and utter anger, visions of telling him off, what an ass**le he has been , how he doesn't deserve me or anything I do for him and how he'll miss me when Im gone and he gets older and realizes how pathetic he can be. Then I see him and its like my brain goes on autopilot mush and i become some driveling mess of infatuation where I can get upset with him but not tell him to just go f**k himself and never speak to me again. It's a weird thing. Sometimes I feel like Im getting closer to that breaking point where I just am so mentally exhausted I don't give a sh*t anymore and just am too tired to keep trying and trying to keep it together and maybe one day I'll just wake up and tell him, "Im sorry, i cant see you anymore. You haven't the slightest clue how wonderful i am, you effing pr*ck". That and I sometimes really want to just hurt him. Or throw a brick through his car window. Unfortunately Im not quite that insane. Or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

[whichwayisup]

.....just get frozen and can't do it sometimes. When I don't see him I alternate between sadness and total and utter anger, visions of telling him off, what an ass**le he has been , how he doesn't deserve me or anything I do for him and how he'll miss me when Im gone and he gets older and realizes how pathetic he can be. Then I see him and its like my brain goes on autopilot mush and i become some driveling mess of infatuation where I can get upset with him but not tell him to just go f**k himself and never speak to me again.

 

If you really feel this way and react this way when you don't hear from him, imagine what you'll feel like IF you go to that BBQ and he ignores you and pays alot of attention to his wife, holds her hand, puts his hand on her back or around her, giving her loving looks. Don't go to that BBQ unless you want everyone there to know about the affair. There are some things one cannot hide and the emotional state you're in, I don't believe you could hide it without making a scene. Sorry..

[whichwayisup]

I feel for you because this whole situation is killing everything you've worked hard for and also it's ruining you!

 

and assuming (hopefully) I find some nice single lad around that time to start a family with, living the overseas carefree single life would probably be a dream at best. So I kind of wanted to try it now. But as with every other effing thing I want for myself, something prohibits me (in the case of moving, its money. Hateful, hateful money. bah.)

Money isn't the only thing holding you back, it's HIM! You could borrow money from your family, or get a bank loan.

[KismetGirl]

I feel for you because this whole situation is killing everything you've worked hard for and also it's ruining you!

 

<<<<KG Quote:

and assuming (hopefully) I find some nice single lad around that time to start a family with, living the overseas carefree single life would probably be a dream at best. So I kind of wanted to try it now. But as with every other effing thing I want for myself, something prohibits me (in the case of moving, its money. Hateful, hateful money. bah.) >>>>

 

Money isn't the only thing holding you back, it's HIM! You could borrow money from your family, or get a bank loan.

 

Actually no, with respect to that purely, it really is a money thing. My family can't afford to lend me money, they are in no position, trust me. It's all me. And I already have so much debt from school and credit cards, I can't fathom taking on another loan, it would be completely fiscally irresponsible on my part, i can't handle another monthly payment.

 

He may hold me back on some things (eg- perhaps in finding other guys , opening my heart up to a new guy, etc), but if I had the money/means to keep my apartment here, keep my finances in order, and be able to move over to London, I would do it tomorrow. It really is, unfortunately, a money thing when it comes to that. Just not in a good place to do it and finding a job is really tough since I don't have an M.D. degree yet, and its hard to find a good paying job with just a BA in my field. Im one of those people that cant just be irresponsible and drop everything and go do whatever i want. I wish I could be that way, sometimes. My sister's are like that alot of the time. I'm the oldest of six kids (actually, oldest in my entire extended family too, older than all my cousins) and the overwhelming sense of responsibility I've had my whole life is ridiculous. Mind bending sometimes. I just want to run away. And I cant. Its bollocks.

[bentnotbroken]

Actually no, with respect to that purely, it really is a money thing. My family can't afford to lend me money, they are in no position, trust me. It's all me. And I already have so much debt from school and credit cards, I can't fathom taking on another loan, it would be completely fiscally irresponsible on my part, i can't handle another monthly payment.

 

He may hold me back on some things (eg- perhaps in finding other guys , opening my heart up to a new guy, etc), but if I had the money/means to keep my apartment here, keep my finances in order, and be able to move over to London, I would do it tomorrow. It really is, unfortunately, a money thing when it comes to that. Just not in a good place to do it and finding a job is really tough since I don't have an M.D. degree yet, and its hard to find a good paying job with just a BA in my field. Im one of those people that cant just be irresponsible and drop everything and go do whatever i want. I wish I could be that way, sometimes. My sister's are like that alot of the time. I'm the oldest of six kids (actually, oldest in my entire extended family too, older than all my cousins) and the overwhelming sense of responsibility I've had my whole life is ridiculous. Mind bending sometimes. I just want to run away. And I cant. Its bollocks.

 

 

This situation is exactly the position I was in. I am also the oldest and folks are in no position to help either. It can be done, one step at a time...but steps must be taken.

[KismetGirl]

If you really feel this way and react this way when you don't hear from him, imagine what you'll feel like IF you go to that BBQ and he ignores you and pays alot of attention to his wife, holds her hand, puts his hand on her back or around her, giving her loving looks. Don't go to that BBQ unless you want everyone there to know about the affair. There are some things one cannot hide and the emotional state you're in, I don't believe you could hide it without making a scene. Sorry..

 

I think if we both ended up at the BBQ together, whcih is unlikely at this point, that I'd make it a point to talk to every man there except for him, and i gurantee you he will notice and be bothered. I've seen him with his wife in public. There's no affectionate hand on the small of her back or kisses or nuzzles. Their relationship is exactly as I've described it: totally familial, friendly, co-parenting, and most certainly not affectionate. Truth be told, while it would be acutely uncomfortable....in a small way I wonder what would happen if she did notice (his wife, I mean.)

[Athena]

Hey KismetGirl,

 

I was just thinking, looking over your reply to me, that you sound Angry. With him. Usually when angry feelings are present, its because you feel there is something unjust.

 

Something about the relationship with MM has you pissed. What in particular? You've done this for four years, but now its beginning to feel unbearable to you.

 

Thinking about your last two break ups which OM initiated with you, its obvious that you get very hurt when that occurs, so even if you can see ending your R with him now, you are loathe to do that.

In that case, is it not possible that you train your thoughts differently? And all the while thinking more negatively of him, you can continue to see him, but try to put less and less effort into Thinking about him during the day. That may include not posting about him on LS, ha ha, but perhaps that will be the last to go...

Do all this cutting back with an effort to wean yourself off him, slowly and steadily.

I think its no good for you to Break it off Suddenly with him (over nothing concrete, well at least not in his mind) nor for you to go NC with him either. I think you should do it gradually. What do you think?

[KismetGirl]

Hey KismetGirl,

 

I was just thinking, looking over your reply to me, that you sound Angry. With him. Usually when angry feelings are present, its because you feel there is something unjust.

 

Something about the relationship with MM has you pissed. What in particular? You've done this for four years, but now its beginning to feel unbearable to you.

 

Thinking about your last two break ups which OM initiated with you, its obvious that you get very hurt when that occurs, so even if you can see ending your R with him now, you are loathe to do that.

In that case, is it not possible that you train your thoughts differently? And all the while thinking more negatively of him, you can continue to see him, but try to put less and less effort into Thinking about him during the day. That may include not posting about him on LS, ha ha, but perhaps that will be the last to go...

Do all this cutting back with an effort to wean yourself off him, slowly and steadily.

I think its no good for you to Break it off Suddenly with him (over nothing concrete, well at least not in his mind) nor for you to go NC with him either. I think you should do it gradually. What do you think?

 

Well I am a tad angry, at this point. Frustrated, angry, a plethora of other emotions. I want to end it and yes, at the same time, you are right, i am loathe to do it because I hate that feeling of finality that I've mentioned before in that it seems so odd to imagine loving someone, and having them be so near in your vicinity (i mean, he works and etc quite close to where i live....literally a block away) and yet to imagine never talking to them again, never touching them again. And not because they aren't attracted to you, or have fallen out of love with you, or just don't find you appealing, but because....well....they are already married to someone else. Frustrating isn't even the word.

 

But little by little I try to lessen the thoughts. When I start to think about him or anything related, I try to make a conscious effort to focus on what I am doing instead, or just think about something else. I'm going out for a girl's night tomorrow night, and Bob's wife is coming out with me, and I've asked all my other girlfriends to make no mention of MM as I am not positive that Bob's wife is aware of our relationship (though I am positive that Bob was, at one time, whether or not he still is is unclear). [in case anyone forgot, Bob and his wife are the people int he beginning of the thread who are having the BBQ...Bob being one of MM's best friends]

 

I think your conception of the "weaning" is one that is easier for me to consider than abrupt NC, which never seemed to work in the past. Number one, he really isn't aware of all the extent that I'm bothered by everything, though he has some idea as to some things (eg- that I would like to see him more often in a social sense as ever since he moved further away and the other two kids came about, and he took on secon job, our social time like we used to have dramatically diminished). I think he views a "break up" with me as both good and bad (much like I do , but for different reasons). He would miss me, as he's said before he missed me, but he wouldn't feel so guilty about seeing me if there was no A anymore. I know he does feel guilt , but I do wonder if it has gotten easier over time for him to deal with that guilt. It seems like everytime we "break up" and then I dont see him, and then he comes back, that it becomes easier for him to be ok with our affair. The first several times we tried sleeping together three years ago, he had considerable....uh....how to put this...."performance anxiety" which I believe was a result of the guilt, as he'd never cheated on her before and it was all alot for him to think about. Nowadays, he obviously has no problems whatsoever with the physical aspect of our relationship. But for the first year....we did not sleep together at all. And he still kept at the EA, which is why I know that this isn't all about sex for him, even though he doesn't like to admit it. If sex had been all he'd been after, we'd have slept together far sooner than waiting over a year of kissing, hugging, sneaking off to just be alone and talk. Sometimes I don't think he fears losing his WIFE, per say, but I think he fears losing his kids and his lifestyle as a whole, which does include his wife, of course. And truly, he does care about her, and he doesn't want to see her hurt. He told me the time she found those photos of me in his email long ago, that the next morning she woke up at 5 in the morning as she barely slept the whole night, which she never does, and went downstairs and just sat in the livingroom by herself and didn't say a word. Just sat there. Im sure that upset him to think he had possibly hurt her...but despite it all he still comes back over and over. I cannot imagine doing that to someone I was in love with, which I guess is why I don't believe he is in love with her. Loves her, yes, in love with her, no.

 

I think that for some people it is best to have a quick "painless" pull, like a band-aid, but for me it doesnt seem to work that way. I mean, the last two times he's broken things off with me, it has generally been a result of almost getting caught combined with guilt around teh holidays and etc. Almost every "spat" or break up we've ever had was around holiday time when "family" time is at its peak. And suddenly, Im without him, and its like one day he's there and the next Im supposed to automatically accept he wont be there anymore. Maybe it sounds liek the better thing to do but I've had a hell of a time to do it in the past, and he doesn't fare much better than I do with the NC to be honest.

 

I think more than anything what might finally bring this to an end (besides, possibly, his wife REALLY finding hard evidence, not just suspicions) is me either meeting someone else (which is not totally impossible as other people seem to think, just difficult)....or him just catching me on a day when I am in my anger phase, which he has not yet really done. A day when I am just so sick and tired of me always adjusting my schedule to fit his, me always thinking of cute things to do for him that no one else does, me always being considerate of his birthday or such things, etc etc. One day I see myself just saying "f**k this, i cant do this anymore, you don't deserve this" and just letting him go. And at the same time I'll be wondering if he will really miss me, as much as I will miss him.

 

I hope youre right Athena, that slowly yet surely I will reach that point of breaking. I really do feel I get there more by the days going, it's just a slow, slow process, and after over four years of being involved with someone....well, the longer you are involved, the longer it seems to take to be able to get rid of it. I didn't fall in love with him over night, and it's hard to imagine just forgetting about him overnight either.

[GreenEyedLady]

PS- and i know you were once an OW and it worked out for you, but please remember no two situations are alike, no two men are alike. I do not recall your story, I apologize, and don't recall how long your MM was married, how old he was, how many kids he had, how old they were, or what his financial and social situation was, but these things all have bearing on someone. you are lucky yours gathered the will to change his life so that it benefited you, and I envy you for that. Mine isn't able to do so right now. maybe if I just up and left him he would eventually, but truth be told, I suspect that until the kids are all at least in school and his wife goes back to work, which wont be for ...what....five years....that it'll be very tough.

 

KG:

 

Let me tell you the truth, when you get to the point where you are making excuses, it is because you know you are not getting what you want.

 

It doesn't matter the situation, the man, the finances, the social situation. What matters is the two people involved.

 

Does the reason he stays really matter to you? Cmon, I was an OW too.

 

And there is no reason to be envious.

 

I am thankful that he realized he was HURTING everyone in his life. It is not until they realize they are SELFISH and want to stop lying that anything will change for the better: for the W or the OW. Sometimes it is the W who ends up with the man and sometimes it is the OW. But until the MM changes who he is and how he reacts, neither should expect anything different.

 

Everyone has free will. And to blame it on the kids or money is just making an excuse. When a man loves a woman, he will find a way.

 

Don't accept excuses. Aren't you worth more than that?

 

GEL

[flash582]

Kismet,

 

I've become a huge believer in looking to actions instead of motivations. It makes your life so much simpler. It's trying to figure out what he's thinking that's driving you crazy.

 

Let's look at what's going on not from the perspective of motivations, but purely from actions.

 

Here's reality, however harsh it may seem. If he wanted to be with you, he would be. It's that simple. People will move mountains to get what they want. After 4 years he's had plenty of time to make it happen if that's what he wanted.

 

Let me repeat that .... if he wanted to be with you.

 

He would be.

 

You are the OW. That's the way he wants it. We know that because after 4 years ... you are still the OW.

 

Everything else is just excuses.

 

The real question is if you want it to be different. If yes ... then you need to move on. If no, then continue as is.

 

 

As for the Barbeque ... go ... and take a date of your own.

 

Good luck

[NoIDidn't]

after talking to him this morning it seemsif he knew i was going he'd find some excuse not to go. Though I suppose that is also dependant on his wife believing his excuse and finding it reasonable enough that they dont go to their friend's house 15 minutes away.

 

Maybe he would then ask me not to go. he's more passive (eg- would rather not go himself, then ask me not to go), but we'll see, i guess.

 

Seeing him this morning has put me in another funk, but that's per usual. Mix of happy and sad. Also, he closed my front door on my fingers by accident as was probably distracted by uh....other things.....and now they are swollen and blue. a metaphor for my life. ouchie.

 

If you really fear that's how he'd feel...then why in the HECK are you still with him at all????????

 

Think about that...if he's that shallow, that pathetic, that self-centered...then there is NO basis for any kind of REAL relationship with this guy!!!!

 

Either being with him has destroyed your self-esteem to this point, or he's that kind of loser.

 

Either way...WHAT POINT IS THERE IN HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH SOMEONE WHO MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE THAT????

 

You already feel like scum for BEING in an affair, right? Then add this in on top of it, it simply boggles the mind why you'd continue.

 

This guy has you snowed. It is evident in your need to write posts justifying why he stays with his wife.

 

The only thing you know about his marriage is what he has told you. My suspicion is that the reality is totally different. He's very good at pushing your buttons and using your sympathy to keep you exactly where he wants you. He is a master manipulator. He is a liar.

 

It makes me sick that someone would use a young lady the way he has used you. But only you can change that now.

 

His actions show exactly how he feels but you are so far into the fog you cannot even interpret them correctly and instead twist the facts to fit your need to keep the hope alive.

 

Bottom line - this is going to end disastrously if you don't wake up and get the hell away from him.

 

I want the best for you. Your life is just beginning and you don't even realize it.

 

I bolded something that Kismet said. And included the other posts because they echo my sentiments.

 

This man cares not one iota for your feelings, KG. Not one bit. If you go, he told you he will convince his W not to want to go as well. If you don't go, he and his W will likely go and have a good time without him having to worry about getting caught.

 

Is that the life you really want? The day that I have to ask if I should go to something with my H (or SO if I wasn't married) will be the day that I have to decide to cut someone out of my life. I recall a company picnic after my H's EA was busted. He told me that he didn't want to go because *her* department would likely be there, as in she would be there. I said "what's that got to do with me and our family and kids going to enjoy ourselves on the beach"? We went.

 

I agree with Owl. Go and get this whole thing out in the open. Whether or not you talk to him, everyone will *know* something is up between the two of you as the tension will probably be thick.

[Athena]

I want to end it and yes, at the same time, you are right, i am loathe to do it because I hate that feeling of finality that I've mentioned before in that it seems so odd to imagine loving someone, and having them be so near in your vicinity (i mean, he works and etc quite close to where i live....literally a block away) and yet to imagine never talking to them again, never touching them again. And not because they aren't attracted to you, or have fallen out of love with you, or just don't find you appealing, but because....well....they are already married to someone else.

When you say you 'hate the feeling of finality' in ending it with MM, it sounds like you are almost afraid of 'making a mistake' in that ending the affair cannot be undone, it will be Final -- and for a woman like you who has been Living on Hope for four years, that is indeed scary. You are not killing anything more than a Dream... a mere Possibility, and a slim one at that...

Regardless, moving on -- so yes, it will be painful and awkward for you to have your former lover in such close proximity (one block away from where you live, you can see him drive to work, etc) but no more so than a lot of OW or OM who end affairs and still see their MP at the workplace daily! The thing to remember here is that you can do this/ You WILL handle it, you will survive it! Those have been your two major fears, haven't they? Fear of Making a Mistake, and Fear of Not Being Able to Stand a Break up! These fears paralyze you. They are good for nothing. And the only way to get over the fear is to Take Action! Taking action begins with making a decision, and then systematically going through with it... as Owl is noted for saying on these boards, "make a decision, one way or the other, then DO IT!". Point is, you get over the fear by facing it. Not by avoiding it for another four years.

 

By the way, the 'married to someone else' is every bit as negative and off-putting as the other reasons you listed for breaking up.

 

But little by little I try to lessen the thoughts. When I start to think about him or anything related, I try to make a conscious effort to focus on what I am doing instead, or just think about something else.

Although the goal would be to Lessen the thoughts of OM, its going to be difficult to do that at first, so at least turn the thoughts you have into Negative thoughts.... if you are going to think of him at all, you may as well help the cause of finally extricating yourself from him by focusing on his negative qualities, and the way he does not and cannot fulfill your needs. I believe that when we first fall in love with somebody, we fuel our infatuation with lots of time spent thinking about that person in a positive light (how great they make us feel, how wonderful they are, how sexy they are etc) and that great deal of investment in time pays off with bonding and a heart connection.

And so I believe in order to try fall out of love with them the opposite should be done-- do not think positively of them, and if you can, imagine them in ridiculous positions (weak for being wishy-washy, or Selfish for getting it all their way, or greedy for stringing two women along). It even helps to make up stuff -- like imagining him in high-heeled shoes and a ridiculous wig. These mental images may be just imagination, but to your brain there's no difference than the other lovey-dovey images you fed it for years on end about how super OM was! Brain images will be just as real either positive spun, or negative... so focus on the negative ones to break your addiction.

 

I think your conception of the "weaning" is one that is easier for me to consider than abrupt NC, which never seemed to work in the past. I think that for some people it is best to have a quick "painless" pull, like a band-aid, but for me it doesnt seem to work that way.

I do believe that time Heals a lot of things, or at least allows you to Accept things. So yes, since it is obviously difficult for you to accept an abrupt cut-off, then be gentle with yourself and do it gradually. I have an illustration of this... Last October my son's beloved car was wrecked in a car accident caused by some kid who suddenly turned in front of him. The kid's insurance company paid my son out for the Book Value of the car (only $2 thousand!!) but my son was heartbroken to lose his car and wished we could have it repaired... at a much greater cost... The background to his strong attachment (apart from him being a sentimental boy even at age 21) was that when he was 6 years old we came to the USA to attend my brother's wedding, and that same car was my brother's little red sports car. My son, very impressed with his uncle's choice of car, declared to me that when he grows up, he's going to have a car JUST like his uncles!

Well, he did grow up, and we came to live in the States, and his uncle gave him that very same car three years ago!

My son loved it. H and I had it fixed up.

So, it was a very painful loss for my son to Abruptly Lose His Beloved car! This is what I did: Since the insurance company would only disburse the funds on condition that we had the car declared 'salvage' at the DMV (Dept. of Motor Vehicles), that's what we did, but then it was explained to us that since the car was Salvaged, in order for it to be fixed up and allowed back on the road, we would have to have it go through a full motor vehicles inspection, and it would be highly unlikely to pass since a car of that age would likely be rusted in the frame underneath, and to even think of fixing all that would be thousands and not worth it!

So, clearly that car would not be put back on the road. I knew my son was, by this time, facing end-of-year exams at university, and so to not upset him any further, I had the car towed 45 miles to our home, where it stayed in our drive all through the winter (the snow plough guy hated the inconvenience and added difficulties in snowploughing our driveway and he almost doubled the price from $50 to $90 for added time, two trucks to plough, and sand that had to be put down for his trucks not to crash into the disabled car -- cost us $1500.00 for the winter ).

Why did I do this? Because while my son had use of my old car, he could focus on his schoolwork and be emotionally okay with the 'loss' since every time he came home, there was his car still parked in the drive - he had not had a Finality of Loss.

Last week after his Spring Break vacation at home, I had his car donated to a local charity and towed away to be used for spare parts. Finally, he had come to terms with the loss and it was not painful for him because he had had some months to come to terms with the idea ... same with you -- you feel in your heart that you cannot end your affair with MM, so you need to do it gently, slowly, and get 'used to the idea' (by re-training your thoughts from positive love feelings to negative ones). In time, I believe you will be able to cope with the separation which is inevitable.

And, btw I don't think you have to Convince HIM, just yourself, to Let Him Go. And stop worrying about how he's going to handle it. He will. You take care of yourself, and let him deal with his side, you cannot be responsible for both sides -- no wonder you've never been able to walk away from him before!

[carhill]

IMO, if invited to the BBQ, attend. Your friends and hosts are the priority.

[Athena]

KismetGirl, I finally caught up with your thread, went back and read from your original post to where I started on your thread, I think page 3, about post 37 or so, anyway, its uncanny to see your earlier posts where you talked about being angry with MM etc, but I hadn't yet read them... so... now all caught up!

[jj33]

I think if we both ended up at the BBQ together, whcih is unlikely at this point, that I'd make it a point to talk to every man there except for him, and i gurantee you he will notice and be bothered. I've seen him with his wife in public. There's no affectionate hand on the small of her back or kisses or nuzzles. Their relationship is exactly as I've described it: totally familial, friendly, co-parenting, and most certainly not affectionate. Truth be told, while it would be acutely uncomfortable....in a small way I wonder what would happen if she did notice (his wife, I mean.)

 

Are you kidding?

 

KG its beyond naive to think that the fact that you havent seen PDA means there is nothing more than a familial unaffecionate relationship between them.

 

Many people think PDA is rude and would NEVER nuzzle or kiss in public or in front of their friends. But that has NOTHING to do with what goes on behind closed doors.

 

The two things you are banking your hopes on - what he tells you and what you see in public are not good indicia of where the truth lies. Noone really knows what goes on between a couple except the two of them, and those they tell the whole truth to, and I doubt you are one of them.

 

You have every right to go to the BBQ they are your friends too and you were invited. But its very clear you want his wife to find out. So that you can have closure.

[KismetGirl]

Are you kidding?

 

KG its beyond naive to think that the fact that you havent seen PDA means there is nothing more than a familial unaffecionate relationship between them.

 

Many people think PDA is rude and would NEVER nuzzle or kiss in public or in front of their friends. But that has NOTHING to do with what goes on behind closed doors.

 

The two things you are banking your hopes on - what he tells you and what you see in public are not good indicia of where the truth lies. Noone really knows what goes on between a couple except the two of them, and those they tell the whole truth to, and I doubt you are one of them.

 

You have every right to go to the BBQ they are your friends too and you were invited. But its very clear you want his wife to find out. So that you can have closure.

 

::shrug::: i dont mean a couple has to full on make out and grope each other. But generally, when I've seen couples that are really in love with each other (at any age, mind you, I've seen 80 year old couples married for 60 years act this way) its the way the look at each other that is special, the way they speak to each other, and the body language , moreso than the actual physical PDA I might have implied.

 

Surely you must know what I mean....when you see a couple in love, you know it. When you see a couple that is just comfortable, you know it. And when you see a couple that can't stand each other, you know it, if you pay enough attention. Just MHO.

[jj33]

Sorry I disagree in this case. I dont think you are objectively viewing it.

[jj33]

The thing is unless he were putting on a show you would never be in a position to know what it was like between them. Hes not going to be affectionate to her in front of you and she will pick up on that (they are married) and respond in kind. So the way you see them interacting the affectionate looks or whatever is never going to be an accurate version of their relationship.

 

You have to stop fooling yourself. You can make up every reason you want to, but you will never ever know the truth. All you can go by are his actions. And he isnt leaving, he isnt telling you he is thinking of leaving, and you are unhappy.

[SerenityX2]

Wow this is still going on since the last time I was here? I'm shocked.

 

Kis I think I am starting to understand more why you prefer the land of denial. It'd be too devastating for you to think anything other than the truth you've spun in your head about this.

 

I've always got that you don't understand how someone who is supposed to love their wife could not only cheat but also hurt her and it comes down to you are dealing with an extremely selfish guy. There are literally tons of stories of women who found out later *after* professing to OW his love for her (which btw yours has never done) how things *really* are between he and his wife. JJ is right you have no clue how things are behind closed doors. As their are millions of couples there are millions of variations of dynamics that make up those couples.

 

Some show PDA, some show loving looks in public, some are even reserved to hold back the looks till they're alone, some have a mixture of all of the above and it depends on who they're with and the circumstances. i.e at a wedding, party, company gathering etc etc....you of all people should know you can't put people into neat boxes.

 

You admit to analyzing and over analzying their online photos. *If* you see them looking happy and whatever you spin it that it's a ruse. So there's no winning with you, you look at their M in whatever light fuels your fantasies and not necessarily the truth. You even admitted a long time ago that he told you he loved her to *death* but for you...you love dogs, pictures, cars not people *to death* ....many, many people express loving someone immensly as *to death* the reason your MM actions towards his wife don't match your expectations of a man in love is because he is selfish.

 

Case in point you say that she was upset after finding your photos, he told you she sat downstairs in silence and how could he hurt her like that and keep coming back to you?

 

Kismet you said a few posts back that when you found out THEY were pregnant *you* were hysterical (your words)....HYSTERICAL Kismet and all he did was *watch* you from afar *looking* forlorn? and that somehow equates to some unrequitted love for you? Kismet wake up, he's selfish.

 

Once again not only can he not tell you he's love with you AFTER 4 YEARS and you blame it that he's emotionally retarded Yeah okay whatever works for you I guess. But he STILL can't make time to hang out with you?

 

Kismet WAKE UP! He doesn't give one damn about you except what you do for him in the moment PERIOD. His actions scream it. Seriously most OW after complaining to their MM that they want to see him more ....DO something to please her, to show her she's means *something* to him. His excuses are just that....excuses and you have to know that but prefer to live in denial of believing what he tells you.

 

You think she is so stupid and is in denial herself because how could she not know. The truth is he probably worked very hard at convincing her nothing happened with you two. She wouldn't have had insomnia and sat in silence if she was one to stick her head in the sand. She wouldn't have had that kind of reaction at all if this was just a "friends" kind of marriage.

 

You are degrading yourself further and further and are in denial over how much this is hitting your self esteem. That shows by the constant need to emphasize your beauty and how the majority of total strangers on the street want you (most beautiful women don't have to convince others they are and need other's... especially men's validations) and yet MM *really* doesn't want you no matter of your beauty, brains and sexpertise.....that's what sucks, that's why you have endless pages of justification and that's what's so very sad about your story.

 

He would move mountains if he *wanted* you....there's a reason people are saying it.

 

And something else if and when you do walk away, perhaps you are his first, but c'mon he was what? 30 or so at that time? Not all that impressive in the "being faithful" catagory. You may have been the first, but now that he's gotten over his guilts and proven he can lie to get what he wants, you more than likely won't be the last. He's too selfish, your posts scream that about him. He does have you snowed and he has you right where he wants you.

[MeaganRaye]

Maybe some women are just happy being the other woman? It's not in everybody's cards to get married or have a man of their own. I used to think that there was somebody for everybody but I have met people in their 50s and 60s who have never found love.

[wildsoul]

::shrug::: i dont mean a couple has to full on make out and grope each other. But generally, when I've seen couples that are really in love with each other (at any age, mind you, I've seen 80 year old couples married for 60 years act this way) its the way the look at each other that is special, the way they speak to each other, and the body language , moreso than the actual physical PDA I might have implied.

KG, if I remember correctly, you've never been married or in a long term relationship. I understand what you're saying about being able to tell when a couple isn't connecting. (Like those sad looking couples in restaurants who never speak to each other! )

 

But appearances at a party are not always what they seem!

 

In my long-term relationships, my partners and I often make a game of splitting up as soon as we enter a party. It's fun to interact with others! We mix and mingle, then come home to swap stories and have hot sex. It's a turn on to see your partner being an individual, yanno?

 

Besides: Didn't you say you like English guys? Not so much on the PDA.

 

I agree with the others that you're projecting.

 

It would do you a world of good to go to LOTS of parties without your MM. There's a world of interesting men out there. You might need to go through a grieving phase if you choose to let go, but it would be very beneficial for you to get back in touch with your independance again. It seems like your whole sense of self is tied up in imagining what MM thinks/feels about you in comparison to his W. As sexy, smart, and intriguing as you are, it's wasted if you're with someone who can't really be with you. If you had someone who could REALLY love you back, your whole life would feel better. I'd love to see you have that.

[awkward]

Maybe some women are just happy being the other woman? It's not in everybody's cards to get married or have a man of their own. I used to think that there was somebody for everybody but I have met people in their 50s and 60s who have never found love.

 

Some women are very happy being the other woman. KG isn't one of them. If you read her threads, you can see the denial and the pain. Her MM doesn't even try, he just gives her enough to make her stay. He doesn't give any extras.

[OWoman]

Besides: Didn't you say you like English guys? Not so much on the PDA.

 

Oh I disagree!! My H is English, and I've had a couple of As with other English guys before, and they're FULLY into PDAs!! They've always complained that their Ws are frigid and unphysical, so if anything it's English WOMEN who're not into the PDA thing...

 

English guys are the hottest lovers! Even walking down the street or shopping with the right English guy is like making love!

[Reggie]

Yeah, baby. I agree, English guys are the hottest, I just walked past one and had a mini orgasm.

[wildsoul]

Oh I disagree!! My H is English, and I've had a couple of As with other English guys before, and they're FULLY into PDAs!! They've always complained that their Ws are frigid and unphysical, so if anything it's English WOMEN who're not into the PDA thing...

 

English guys are the hottest lovers! Even walking down the street or shopping with the right English guy is like making love!

Hey, now that I'm single, maybe I'll have to find out for myself.

 

Though Elizabeth Hurley's relationship with hooker-hopping Hugh Grant didn't turn out well for her. He's one of my living proof examples of how it doesn't matter how HOT the wife is, if a man's going to cheat, he will.

 

But wouldn't you agree that how much PDA you see a couple engaging in at a party isn't necessarily a reflection of what goes on at home?