Invited to same BBQ as MM and his W, WWYD?

[Athena]

And I just wanted to add... That if you do not ask, you do not get!!!!

 

What do you have to lose?

 

Ask, then if he says, "Never", you can break up with him.

 

Also --- just a thought... methinks you kinda want him to hang around for the great sex when you are doing the hard slog of Med School and won't have time for dates etc

[Billie63]

if h wants to leave her, I dont want it to be because of me. I really dont. If he thinks he is happy where he is, then let him stay there. Nothing good comes out of trying to convince someone they are unhappy with something....they need to acknowledge that on his own. And if he doesnt? Then maybe his wife will never be the wiser, and this A can't last forever (not with me, anyway), and maybe they will grow old and happy together. Who knows. God knows I dont want to be sitting here typing posts in another 4 years about this crap.

 

I really don't think you can separate his unhappiness within his mmarriage with his affair with you. It's obvious he's not a serial cheater, it's obvious he has very strong feelings for you (you may turn out to be the love of his life).

 

If he does leave her it will be because the marriage is bad, but because he never truly loved her in the right way. And he will come to the realisation that he deserves more and so does she.

 

Anyway Kismet, I can definitely see by your posts that you are changing towards him and the situation. It happens - gradually your love for him will be chipped away - you will eventually break it off with him - when the pain outweighs the pleasure.

[OWoman]

I need to stop with the thinking ahead to "what if" he left her in a couple years

 

God knows I dont want to be sitting here typing posts in another 4 years about this crap.

 

So... that gives you a time frame of three years?

 

You don't want him to leave "yet" but the prize would be for him to leave "in a couple of years".... though you don't still want to be in the A in 4 years time. So - three years more of the same, you're prepared to put up with, so long as he leaves at that point?

 

KG, it sounds as if you're really unhappy with things as they are. Why put up with it for a second longer?

 

Tell him what it is you want. If you want to continue in an A - but on terms that suit you - for the next "couple of years" with him moving towards D before the 4 year deadline, put that on the line. If he can deliver on that - or even, if he tells you he will deliver on that - you're in with a chance. If he goes pale around the gills and starts spluttering and coughing and coming up with excuses, you know where you stand. Right now you suspect - but you have no direct evidence and so that allows you to build the fantasies on the side while your gut and your experience start amassing evidence the other way, which you turn a blind eye to as it's never been put to the test in that blatant way.

 

You're reading his asking you what you want about marriage and kids as him interviewing you for the position of next W. My gut feel is he's sounding you out to get a sense of how long you'll be around and available to him in your current role. He's not seen you as the next Mrs MM, because he's not looking for one - he already has Mrs MM in that role.

 

My H did leave his xW. Yes, it did take a while from the start of our A but never ever did he treat me as anything less than the priority in his life. Never ever was I left in any doubt as to my value to him, nor was there ever any doubt how much he loved me. We were always upfront about where things stood and the minute we decided to be together he took action to make it so (as did I). Your MM is not doing that. And you are not doing that nor demanding of him that he do - or that he go. This is not a relationship of equals. It can't have a future. Would you honestly be content to live a married life with someone who treats you like that? That is how he treats women - not just you, also his W. From what you describe there is no evidence anywhere of him treating ANY women differently - what on earth would change if you were M?

 

KG this is not healthy for you. Why are you choosing to do this to yourself?

[Owl]

I most certainly dont want the drama. Im sick of the drama, it makes me tired, I just want to have a relationship that's...."easy" for lack of better words. Normal!

 

Im not trying to mak it seem more complicated than it is, but its not ALL black and white. Yes, there's the black and white decision of "just end it or dont", but its hard to ignore the rest....

 

But hey, GEL seems to think my posts have taken on a tone of un-protectiveness (is that word?) and bitterness towards him....so maybe I am moving away mentally. Its entirely possible...and I think until I can move away mentally, enough, it'll be hard for me to physically NC with him and make it last. The last few NC's never lasted, because mentally I wasnt' ready for it. Im trying to get my head there.

 

If you truly, truly hated the drama...you'd have taken some kind of steps to end it.

 

You haven't...you've not taken a single step at all to end or even mitigate it in any fashion...after all these posts...after all these years.

 

We've all said that "actions speak louder than words".

 

What do YOUR actions say?

 

If you were someone else, reading your posts...what would your actions be telling that "outside observer"?

 

They tell me that you like where you're at...or at least don't dislike enough to truly care and want to do something about it.

 

I say accept it. Shout to the world that you WANT to be his mistress...and enjoy yourself.

 

It's that...or end the relationship.

[Owl]

I'm beginning to suspect that KG is the kind of person who WANTS to be unhappy.

 

She enjoys being unhappy.

 

She can't admit it, or else no one would fight to save her from her unhappiness.

 

But I think she enjoys being unhappy, and enjoys the attention she gets from others trying to rescue her.

[KismetGirl]

I'm beginning to suspect that KG is the kind of person who WANTS to be unhappy.

 

She enjoys being unhappy.

 

She can't admit it, or else no one would fight to save her from her unhappiness.

 

But I think she enjoys being unhappy, and enjoys the attention she gets from others trying to rescue her.

 

 

yeah....I love wondering if something happened over the weekend and that's why I haven't heard from him yet, I love going crazy today because he hasn't been in the office for me to talk to him, and I can't call his cell phone cause he might be home, and somehow someone hacked into my email early this morning and sent some weird spam to the old email address he has on my contact list that his wife knows the password to and so now Im paranoid wondering if she's seen it , and I love that I probably wont be able to calm down until I hear from him to make sure everything is ok, and I love watching him go home to his family, I love feeling alone and forlorn, I love that feeling of depression that takes over when Im dissapointed that he won't make extra time to hang out with me, and most of all, i love having cyber attention from people I've never met in my life. Come on now, does that make any sense???

[Island Girl]

yeah....I love wondering if something happened over the weekend and that's why I haven't heard from him yet, I love going crazy today because he hasn't been in the office for me to talk to him, and I can't call his cell phone cause he might be home, and somehow someone hacked into my email early this morning and sent some weird spam to the old email address he has on my contact list that his wife knows the password to and so now Im paranoid wondering if she's seen it , and I love that I probably wont be able to calm down until I hear from him to make sure everything is ok, and I love watching him go home to his family, I love feeling alone and forlorn, I love that feeling of depression that takes over when Im dissapointed that he won't make extra time to hang out with me, and most of all, i love having cyber attention from people I've never met in my life.

 

And all of this that you constantly go through will be the same week after week, month after month, year after year until YOU decide you are done feeling like this and dealing with this.

It will be the same until you decide you deserve something more than being second best.

 

It will be the same until you decide you are DONE.

 

Come on now, does that make any sense???

 

No. It doesn't make any sense.

 

But for whatever reason you keep doing it.

 

It's like you are thirsty. Very thirsty.

And you have a brick in each hand and a glass of water in front of you.

Somehow you have convinced yourself that having the bricks is all you need. That you may be thirsty but you CAN do without the water.

The bricks are heavy and they do not give you what you need. You are burdened by them but you are still wrapped up in that lie you tell yourself that they WILL sustain you and you don't need that water.

 

Quit lying to yourself and put the bricks down. You really do need and want the water.

 

He's the bricks. A fulfilling relationship where you get what you deserve (full and complete attention and devotion) is the water.

 

Just in case the analogy wasn't clear.

[Owl]

yeah....I love wondering if something happened over the weekend and that's why I haven't heard from him yet, I love going crazy today because he hasn't been in the office for me to talk to him, and I can't call his cell phone cause he might be home, and somehow someone hacked into my email early this morning and sent some weird spam to the old email address he has on my contact list that his wife knows the password to and so now Im paranoid wondering if she's seen it , and I love that I probably wont be able to calm down until I hear from him to make sure everything is ok, and I love watching him go home to his family, I love feeling alone and forlorn, I love that feeling of depression that takes over when Im dissapointed that he won't make extra time to hang out with me, and most of all, i love having cyber attention from people I've never met in my life. Come on now, does that make any sense???

 

Your words say you hate it...but your actions say that you must enjoy it, because you've done nothing to change it.

 

What do your actions say to you?

[Die Hard]

yeah....I love wondering if something happened over the weekend and that's why I haven't heard from him yet, I love going crazy today because he hasn't been in the office for me to talk to him, and I can't call his cell phone cause he might be home, and somehow someone hacked into my email early this morning and sent some weird spam to the old email address he has on my contact list that his wife knows the password to and so now Im paranoid wondering if she's seen it , and I love that I probably wont be able to calm down until I hear from him to make sure everything is ok, and I love watching him go home to his family, I love feeling alone and forlorn, I love that feeling of depression that takes over when Im dissapointed that he won't make extra time to hang out with me, and most of all, i love having cyber attention from people I've never met in my life. Come on now, does that make any sense???

You may not enjoy any of this but it's what you are in for with no end in sight. You can either accept it, or do something about it. I haven't checked in here for awhile and it's depressing for me to see you still stuck in the same old place, I can only imagine how depressing it is for you. Bad way to live your life. You better get that figured out while you still can, Kis.

 

I wish you luck, happiness and an end to your pain. I hope someday you TRULY wish and demand the same for yourself.

[whichwayisup]

I love wondering if something happened over the weekend and that's why I haven't heard from him yet, I love going crazy today because he hasn't been in the office for me to talk to him, and I can't call his cell phone cause he might be home, and somehow someone hacked into my email early this morning and sent some weird spam to the old email address he has on my contact list that his wife knows the password to and so now Im paranoid wondering if she's seen it , and I love that I probably wont be able to calm down until I hear from him to make sure everything is ok, and I love watching him go home to his family, I love feeling alone and forlorn, I love that feeling of depression that takes over when Im dissapointed that he won't make extra time to hang out with me, and most of all, i love having cyber attention from people I've never met in my life.

 

Is it worth it? Is he worth it? Are you truly that scared of life without him that you'd rather stay and put up with this total crap and emotional rollercoaster ride?

 

If you plan on continuing and to be his OW, then lower your expectations and accept all that stuff you listed as part of the package when you have an affair with a MM. Or, end it. HE is not going to change his ways, nor is he going to leave his wife and kids for you. Ever.. You know this!!!!!

 

Kis, I keep saying you have so much in your life, yet you focus every mood and every fibre of your being on this MM - HE affects YOU waaaay too much! And I know I've said this before but is throwing away your medical career worth it? Stay on this path and that's exactly what's going to happen.

[Owl]

Basically...if its not what you want...then do something about it.

 

Or accept it as what you want out of this situation...and learn to like it.

[SerenityX2]

Kis,

 

That's sad if neither of them talk about the marriage, that's no doubt a major problem, though I'm sure agreed, no excuse for his cheating.

 

I wasn't trying to compare my marriage to theirs ....besides way different dynamics, he'd have to have a completely different character, neither here nor there.

 

My point was I was thinking when you meet other guys that you have this expectation that it needs to be off the charts immediately and forevermore, but as you expressed, seems you understand that even when a couple has intense chemistry, there's much more and it grows deeper and really is rather fluid. I'm just trying to reiterate what others have also said that affair feelings are more intense than a normal r'ship/marriage so you're not going to match that extreme intensity b/c of the fantasy element.

 

Kis, even though it wasn't full on sex, didn't you say before pretty early on that you guys had trysts in the office, besides the kissing there were oral encounters from him? If so, it's not exactly like he didn't know the direction this was heading in from the get go and was likely his plan even though he was slower than some at executing it, but the waiting wasn't exactly peculiar (for him)

 

OWoman brings up a good point about why he's asking about you and kids and all, to get a time line from you of how long he has. And she has an excellent point, he treats women, lousy like they're for HIS needs only, to hell with their wants, that won't change Kis it's who he is. You've only seen what he wants you to see. Not the entire man.

 

I still don't get how you won't talk to him. Speculating obviously does no good. I could see your logic if you were more than happy to have a f*buddy, send him on his way and go back to your life, but clearly you're not, the answer is talk. (then walk)

 

My husband (yeah we talk about all sorts of stuff and he knows my drive to help people) had a point when I told him about this. When I explained how you said MM looks horrified at the mention of divorce, my husband said "well for someone not wanting that, he is certainly setting himself up TO BE divorced" i.e. from her, he doesn't get final say I'm sure you're aware. So maybe ask him that. Point blank why is he doing this if he's not okay with it. If divorce is something one is so deathly afraid of, then one wouldn't even stick their toe in dangerous waters to test it out.

 

It's good you're starting to get ticked, but it's going to take a lot more action than that to walk away. It's like OWL said if you don't like the drama DO something, you hold that key.

[KismetGirl]

I really don't think you can separate his unhappiness within his mmarriage with his affair with you. It's obvious he's not a serial cheater, it's obvious he has very strong feelings for you (you may turn out to be the love of his life).

 

If he does leave her it will be because the marriage is bad, but because he never truly loved her in the right way. And he will come to the realisation that he deserves more and so does she.

 

Anyway Kismet, I can definitely see by your posts that you are changing towards him and the situation. It happens - gradually your love for him will be chipped away - you will eventually break it off with him - when the pain outweighs the pleasure.

 

Yes! His marriage isn't "bad", which is why he can't see reason to break it up. As I said- they don't argue, they both deal with the kids well together, they are good friends, so he doesn't see a need to upset the balance. He doesn't think about "his" happiness or his wife's as far as their personal relationship goes. It just saddens me that it is probable that he will not come to any of these realisations for quite some time, if ever. I know some people don't think this is a big reason, but today when I was driving home I was watching a father teaching his son to ride a bike- the man was holding onto the back of the seat while the boy's mother looked on with a smile on her face, and I thought "those are the moments he doesnt want to lose"....and I guess I can understand hw it's scary to think you wouldnt be there with your kids for moments like that, or that (worse) some other guy your ex-wife dates would be there having those moments with your kids, in the house that YOU bought thinking you'd be living in the rest of your life. And it is NOT the same with divorced parents, not usually, as when your parents live together, it just isnt. Mine divorced when I was about 12, maybe 11, I forget, and I miss the moments of family time, of my dad teaching me and my sisters how to fish or ride bikes or go camping or drive on road trips to canada while my mom laughed and video taped us. Don't get me wrong- I love my new family, I love my half-siblings, I love my step dad, but it's different, and before it happened, it seemed like my world was falling apart at the time. No matter how much my parents fought, the big D word seemed like the worst thing in the world that could happen to a family. I guess everything works out for a reason, but it is difficult to aprehend that when you are in the situation...it seems worse than it might be and you don't consider that you as a person deserve to be happy with someone, and that you can still love yoru kids and raise them even if you're not with their mother. It breaks my heart to think of taking those moments away from his kids, and at the same time it breaks my heart to think of life without him. It's like my brain can't win.

 

Little by little the pain of the situation is pushing me to a side where I can't deal with it anymore. He finally emailed me today, and apparently all my nervousness all day of not hearing from him was for naught- he'd hurt his leg jogging and went to the doctor which was why he wasn't in the office all day. And I sat there in my office all day distracted and anxious wondering if something had happened, if his wife had noticed that spam email that got sent to her by accident, and I can't deal with that crap anymore. Im tired that he's become so used to this situation that he won't put effort into acknowledging that it can't go on this way forever. I know the way he looks at me, and the way he talks to me and acts when we are together, and I know he cares for me, despite the faults. I catch him looking at me when he thinks Im not paying attention, when I pretend to be half asleep, in that way you look at someone when you are just happy to be laying there with them. He'll randomly just tell me how pretty I am and pull me onto his lap and wrap himself around me and just push his face into my neck and just breathe, and not say a word, and it's moments like that that i almost want to cry. He used to do that alot when we worked together....i'd be walking by his office, or the basement copy room, and he'd pull me in and close the door and just stand there hugging me and stroking my hair. You know how you can hug someone, and it feels like this perfect, wonderful fit? It's contentment, comfort, sexyness, cuteness, pleasantness, all wrapped into the same moment. Which makes it all the more depressing that the likely scenario is that eventually I'll get so depressed by the fact that its going no where that I'll have no choice but to tell him to stop hurting me because I cant take it anymore. I'm going to miss him alot.

 

My mom says, one day when I get married, and maybe me and my husband have a fight one day, and Im off by myself thinking, I'll probably think about MM and wonder what he's doing. And she's probably right. I don't think I'll ever be able to really forget him, i just hope it gets easier one day. Sometimes I think that maybe he is the love of my life, and that I'll have to sort of settle for comfort just like most people do anyway. I guess really finding true love at the right time, right place, is unrealistic. There's always something mismatching- you're single, he's married, or he lives in one country and you live in another, or whatever. That's life, I guess.

[KismetGirl]

And all of this that you constantly go through will be the same week after week, month after month, year after year until YOU decide you are done feeling like this and dealing with this.

It will be the same until you decide you deserve something more than being second best.

 

It will be the same until you decide you are DONE.

 

 

 

No. It doesn't make any sense.

 

But for whatever reason you keep doing it.

 

It's like you are thirsty. Very thirsty.

And you have a brick in each hand and a glass of water in front of you.

Somehow you have convinced yourself that having the bricks is all you need. That you may be thirsty but you CAN do without the water.

The bricks are heavy and they do not give you what you need. You are burdened by them but you are still wrapped up in that lie you tell yourself that they WILL sustain you and you don't need that water.

 

Quit lying to yourself and put the bricks down. You really do need and want the water.

 

He's the bricks. A fulfilling relationship where you get what you deserve (full and complete attention and devotion) is the water.

 

Just in case the analogy wasn't clear.

 

I am vastly thirsty, damn near dehydrated to passing out. And lately I feel like throwing the bricks through his car window. What does his car window represent? Hummmm.....

 

The funny thing is, Im not really lying to myself like people seem to think. I have a pretty legitimate view of the situation, it's just that my response to it is not in tune to what people would imagine someone would do when they are unhappy with something. Am I making sense? I mean, I dole out reasonable advice to people all the time, both personally and professionally, and am always told Im great at it. But when it comes to myself...I don't know. Stubborn is perhaps the wrong word, but you get where Im going with it.

 

As in, I am aware of the bad things, how it negatively affects me, that it feasibly will not lead anywhere good, and I still act like this emotionally-masochistic idiot. I don't LIKE feeling this way, and for reasons I can't comprehend I stick it out. Partially because my life is so chaotic that dating seems like this tiring, annoying game that I just haven't got the energy for, but at the same time I like that feeling of closeness and knowing someone likes me, and yes, admit it, the sex is fabulous. I'd like it more often of course, but at least I know what Im getting.

 

MAYBE when I have a better idea of how school and my professional future is going to play out I can relax a little and focus more on improving my love life and etc, but like I tell my therapist- I stretch myself so thin between school, work and family obligations, friend obligations, it's like I have nothing or no one for myself, no one who just takes care of me for once, and even though what he does is selfish and from an outside perspective more damaging than anything else....those moments when Im with him just give me some momentary solace that is very hard to give up.

 

But yeah, Im thirsty as hell and these bricks are looking like mighty good throwing objects soon....

[KismetGirl]

Your words say you hate it...but your actions say that you must enjoy it, because you've done nothing to change it.

 

What do your actions say to you?

 

Well words and actions dont always match now do they? It's easier to say things than to act on them. Perhaps emotionally-masochistic was an improper term to use to describe myself, as that implies I enjoy feeling emotional pain. I don't.

 

I know you are looking at the situation from a different angle than I am, but in your own way you know what it's like to not want to let go of someone who has caused you pain...right? If you had wanted to be so black and white about it, you might have just let your wife go when she was crying about her lost lover, instead of working with her to win her back and fix your marriage.

 

I can't say, of course, that we are in the same position because we're on opposite ends of it, so it's hard to compre, but it's a similiar feeling where you are being hurt by someone and yet you love them and don't really want them to leave, even though they've gone and been selfish and hurt you. You were able to take more direct action and perhaps give her more ultimatums but I don't have that same leverage as you do....his wife, unfortunately, as the holder of his children, his house, his friends and in laws, his life for the past ten years.....even if she doesn't have his heart fully, she has alot more leverage than I do so it's hard for me to tell someone I love to pi*s off. Ive never had to tell someone I love to go away before, it's the most bizarre notion in the world. I've broken up with poeple, but it was because I just didn't want them, so its easy to say "take it or leave it" and if they left, I just didnt care. Not so here.

 

I hope it's been evident from the way I speak, if not perhaps my actions full on , that my feelings towards the situation have hardened a little bit. I still love him as much as I did, but I'm getting more tired- mentally, physically, emotionally. Eventually i won't be able to deal with this anymore. Maybe this week, maybe next week, maybe in a couple months. Believe me when I say I dont intend to sit around another four years....that's just crazy. Well, you know...

[KismetGirl]

So... that gives you a time frame of three years?

 

You don't want him to leave "yet" but the prize would be for him to leave "in a couple of years".... though you don't still want to be in the A in 4 years time. So - three years more of the same, you're prepared to put up with, so long as he leaves at that point?

 

KG, it sounds as if you're really unhappy with things as they are. Why put up with it for a second longer?

 

Tell him what it is you want. If you want to continue in an A - but on terms that suit you - for the next "couple of years" with him moving towards D before the 4 year deadline, put that on the line. If he can deliver on that - or even, if he tells you he will deliver on that - you're in with a chance. If he goes pale around the gills and starts spluttering and coughing and coming up with excuses, you know where you stand. Right now you suspect - but you have no direct evidence and so that allows you to build the fantasies on the side while your gut and your experience start amassing evidence the other way, which you turn a blind eye to as it's never been put to the test in that blatant way.

 

You're reading his asking you what you want about marriage and kids as him interviewing you for the position of next W. My gut feel is he's sounding you out to get a sense of how long you'll be around and available to him in your current role. He's not seen you as the next Mrs MM, because he's not looking for one - he already has Mrs MM in that role.

 

My H did leave his xW. Yes, it did take a while from the start of our A but never ever did he treat me as anything less than the priority in his life. Never ever was I left in any doubt as to my value to him, nor was there ever any doubt how much he loved me. We were always upfront about where things stood and the minute we decided to be together he took action to make it so (as did I). Your MM is not doing that. And you are not doing that nor demanding of him that he do - or that he go. This is not a relationship of equals. It can't have a future. Would you honestly be content to live a married life with someone who treats you like that? That is how he treats women - not just you, also his W. From what you describe there is no evidence anywhere of him treating ANY women differently - what on earth would change if you were M?

 

KG this is not healthy for you. Why are you choosing to do this to yourself?

 

Well yes, but in your situation, wasn't your MM's xW sort of this crazed, abusive woman? I imagine his friends and family would be happy that he'd find someone normal and loving.

 

Not that I wish that on anyone, but if his W was some nutter like that maybe it would be different but she isn't. She's a normal, loving, caring person from what I can see. I'm biased, of course, but I feel that on a romantic level he and I are a much better match, but its' almost irrelevant. I feel like (and this is from talking to MM's both in real life and reading their threads on here) that simply being out of love with your wife is not enough reason to leave if everything else (eg-friendship with your wife, house, kids, friends, money, etc) are all going very well. I've seen, at best, MM's tell me they made sort of artificial timelines (eg- I'll leave when my youngest kid is in college) because it made more sense for them in the grand scheme of things. The whole "tru love fairytale" doesn't seem to be enough for most guys if the rest of it isn't really going that badly.

 

Stability is very important. From what you expressed, your MM (current H, yes?) and his xW didn't have that stability. They had a tumultous and abusive relationship and he stayed out of some duty or lack of self esteem or perhaps thinking he didnt deserve to be loved properly? As Billie said in an earlier post- if he ever leaves its not because his marriage is bad, per say, but maybe one day he realizes both him and his wife deserve to be with people that they have better connections with, except when ou're spending every day busy with the day-to-day and working tow jobs and raising three kids all under the age of 5, you don't think as much about "romance" or your spousal relationship. That's how it seems in his case, anyway.

 

In any case you are right on one thing, it isn't healthy for me. I dont know why I do this to myself. There are lots of reasons I reckon. Stress from the rest of my life is a big one to be honest....I'm pulled in five hundred different directions. Im 26 and sometimes I feel like Im going on 65. Just mentally and physically exhausted. Im tired of struggling to take care of everyone and everything my whole life and when I get this smidgen of happy-lovey-warmth that lasts even a couple hours a week, it's like a hit on a crack pipe....doesnt last long, buts intense and you really, really look forward to it. I've long compared these sorts of things to additions, that's really what they are like. If he was single and able to date me normally no one would call it an addiction or a bad thing, but because he's unavailable, it becomes a bad thing.

[KismetGirl]

You may not enjoy any of this but it's what you are in for with no end in sight. You can either accept it, or do something about it. I haven't checked in here for awhile and it's depressing for me to see you still stuck in the same old place, I can only imagine how depressing it is for you. Bad way to live your life. You better get that figured out while you still can, Kis.

 

I wish you luck, happiness and an end to your pain. I hope someday you TRULY wish and demand the same for yourself.

 

Die Hard, it's depressing to me too hun! Dissapointing that it's taking me so long to will up the nerve to do something about it but I really think Im getting there, slowly, but I am. Just you wait, I'll come on here one day and shock everyone by telling them good news for once ;-) dont know when that'll be exactly, but im hoping soone rthan later eh?

[whichwayisup]

If he was single and able to date me normally no one would call it an addiction or a bad thing, but because he's unavailable, it becomes a bad thing.

 

We would if you allowed it to interfer in a negative way with your own personal happiness, day to day life, and your medical studies. If you relied on a single man and if he didn't return your calls and you were an emotional mess after not hearing from him, then I would tell you it's an unhealthy relationship.

 

What you have with the MM IS an UNHEALTHY relationship aka the affair. The whole thing, the dynamtic, the insecurities, fears, feelings of mistrust, maybe almost hysteria? Not being able to function properly...

 

Anyway this is YOUR life and when you're really ready and wanting to move on (meaning getting tired of banging your head against a brick wall and sticking pins in your eyes) then you'll do it, you'll end it and grieve..But you will heal and be OK.

 

Don't go to the BBQ, even more so now since you by accident sent his wife a spam email. (Uhh maybe delete her from your contact list so that doesn't happen again) She could very well remember your name if introduced at the BBQ party and also the fact she has seen pictures of you. Just isnt' worth the drama and heartache.

[KismetGirl]

Is it worth it? Is he worth it? Are you truly that scared of life without him that you'd rather stay and put up with this total crap and emotional rollercoaster ride?

 

If you plan on continuing and to be his OW, then lower your expectations and accept all that stuff you listed as part of the package when you have an affair with a MM. Or, end it. HE is not going to change his ways, nor is he going to leave his wife and kids for you. Ever.. You know this!!!!!

 

Kis, I keep saying you have so much in your life, yet you focus every mood and every fibre of your being on this MM - HE affects YOU waaaay too much! And I know I've said this before but is throwing away your medical career worth it? Stay on this path and that's exactly what's going to happen.

 

Noooooo, I don't want to throw my career away over him, god no. In fact I'd love to do really well and come back and throw in his face what he's missed out on to be honest lol.

 

I can't lower my expectations, I'll never be fully happy being just an OW, but I think the position Im in right now (between work and school) has seriously hindered my social life as of late and I kind of hole up my emotional investments in him because he's....well, available is obviously the wrong word, but he's there. Sometimes. Granted I've tried going out a bunch of times with some guys just to make myself give other people a try, but ya know, I didn't like any of them, and I found myself missing having someone that I could cuddle with once in a while and feel warm with. When the last guy I hooked up with, who wasn't MM, slept over (the one I went to college with who recently moved to NY) as he was sleeping next to me I was just thinking "ugh, wake up and go home!". Not that he was a bad guy, or bad looking, just....didnt feel that nice warmth I feel with MM. I miss that feeling, I guess, as little as I get to see him nowadays, it's still something to look forward to, and something I miss alot when we've had our little stints of NC.

 

But you're right. I'm going to ruin alot more than just my career if I don't get my sh*t together soon. I think I've started investing too much of my self esteem in him. I dont have to try very hard around him and he still thinks Im beautiful....that can be addictive. But ultimately...he doesnt deserve me. Not how he's been acting lately, anyway.

 

This week, I imagine I'll probably see him one morning before work, but I was thinking instead of staying at my apartment, which kind of inevitably leads to sex, I might be dressed when he gets here and just insist on going out to breakfast instead and see how he reacts. It's been so long since we did stuff like that on a regular basis, i want to see if he's really that dissapointed if we spend our morning chatting in public over pancakes instead of chatting after sweaty (albeit satisfying) bed romps. Curiousity, I guess. If I get the sense that he's pissed off that I decided to do that instead of revert to our usual sex sessions, I think it would be great motivation for me to move towards ending things, because it would seriously piss me off to an incredible extent. Yeah, I think that's a good idea, come to think of it....

[whichwayisup]

Noooooo, I don't want to throw my career away over him, god no. In fact I'd love to do really well and come back and throw in his face what he's missed out on to be honest lol.

 

Nah, once you walk away, make it forever... He will survive without you..Remember, he has his wife and kids whom he doesn't plan on leaving anyway.

 

Don't even BOTHER with any other guy as he won't measure up and you won't ever allow yourself to consider falling for someone else UNTIL you've broken up and are in total NC with the MM for a while..A long while. It's a waste of time because even if you DO meet someone, I still don't think you have it in you to end it with the MM..Sadly, I think the only way it'll end is if 1)his wife finds out and he throws you under the bus or 2)HE ends it. Sorry...

 

Why not just slowly start to detach yourself. That way the addiction becomes less and less..Stop having sex with him. Just tell him that you can't handle it anymore and that part is definately OVER. Also, don't include him in your daily life...Don't rely on him as much and don't tell him stuff about you, your life etc...Just detach bit by bit. You can do this if you really want to!

[whichwayisup]

But you're right. I'm going to ruin alot more than just my career if I don't get my sh*t together soon. I think I've started investing too much of my self esteem in him. I dont have to try very hard around him and he still thinks Im beautiful....that can be addictive. But ultimately...he doesnt deserve me. Not how he's been acting lately, anyway.

 

Yeah so he thinks you're beautiful! Ego feed..Right? And yes you have invested way too much of your self esteem on him because now if you don't get that "feed" you go on a downward spin and get upset, emotional. Stop allowing him to have SO much power over you and your emotions. HE KNOWS this too, so he knows exactly what buttons to push to get what he wants...Selfishly ofcourse.

 

He isn't inlove with you Kis, you know this, so basically you're wasting more years of your life with someone who is into you sexually, thinks you're hot, you're fun and all but he doesn't share his life with you in the sense of kids, family, friends.

 

If he ended up in the hospital, would he call you? Could you go see him? My guess is no to both. And, if by chance you found out about it, he more than likely would not allow you anywhere near the hospital. Just something to think about..

[KismetGirl]

Kis,

 

That's sad if neither of them talk about the marriage, that's no doubt a major problem, though I'm sure agreed, no excuse for his cheating.

 

I wasn't trying to compare my marriage to theirs ....besides way different dynamics, he'd have to have a completely different character, neither here nor there.

 

My point was I was thinking when you meet other guys that you have this expectation that it needs to be off the charts immediately and forevermore, but as you expressed, seems you understand that even when a couple has intense chemistry, there's much more and it grows deeper and really is rather fluid. I'm just trying to reiterate what others have also said that affair feelings are more intense than a normal r'ship/marriage so you're not going to match that extreme intensity b/c of the fantasy element.

 

It is sad that they don't talk much about their lack of intimacy. He's accepted her lack of interest as "part of married life."

 

Actually, one of the things I like about him is not that it's retained that "newness" after four years, it hasnt. In the beginning, of course, when I met him there was the immediate attraction physically, and the giggly flirting, and exciting to have met someone new, etc. But over four years its changed a little, its become more comfortable, less "new", but still get those butterflies from him. I mean, even with sex, he's seen me from every single angle, flattering or otherwise , and I've gained weight and lost weight and gained weight (and im probably more critical of myself than he is) but whereas with some other people I might be self-conscious about that extra bit of mush on my tummy or whatnot, with him I dont care and I genuinly feel like he doesnt either and he sees me when i wake up in the morning and answer the door half asleep with no make up and messy hair and still thinks im gorgeous. and some days are better than others, and some days Im more tired and not as excited, but Im always still affectionate towards him and its never forced. it's just pleasant and comfortable, but not boring, even when sometimes it gets into a routine. Sure, I try to spice it up once in a while, but not every single time I see him like I used to. I feel like even if we did live together it would obviously, as with most relationships, move to some odd comfort, but it would still have that passionate undertone. I can talk to him about the stressors going on with work and family and etc, and he talks to me about that stuff in his life (to an extent, because I think he knows I dont much want to hear about his wife....), and he can make idiotic statments that make me roll my eyes, but its become very comfortable, but not boring. It's not just some intense affair feeling, which is why I like it, I guess, because it feels realistic. It doesn't feel like my feelings about him are la-dee-da and fog-like where he's perfect and can do no wrong. It just feels like those feeling are so right...and yet, irrelevant.

 

Kis, even though it wasn't full on sex, didn't you say before pretty early on that you guys had trysts in the office, besides the kissing there were oral encounters from him? If so, it's not exactly like he didn't know the direction this was heading in from the get go and was likely his plan even though he was slower than some at executing it, but the waiting wasn't exactly peculiar (for him)

 

It went something like this....first year (while still working together) was mostly kissing, hugging, groping, sneaking off to offices and copy rooms and company car to make out like teenagers and giggle and etc. Spent more time going out to bars and ball games, hanging out, etc. He never motioned towards anything further than this. Towards end of first year I kind of just randomly made the move to heavier trysts involving oral encounters, and to be honest while he was nervous, he hadn't had a BJ in like 5 years and his wife apparently isn't a fan of him going down on her (god knows why, he's great at it) and he loves to do it, so yes, then we got to that level for a while. The first time was in the company car and when I suggested it he literally ripped my panties in half, had to go back to work commando. Awesome. But it stopped there until only, what....about a year ago? Maybe a little less than that? We did sleep together once when we still worked together in that second year. Or tried to anyway, what a mess that was the first time! Snuck off to a hotel by work during the day and took an hour of patient "it's ok, don't worry about it, it's fine"'s from me and various other attempts at assistance before he could sort of overcome the nervousness and even do it at all. We didnt even try that again until last year. Granted, Im sure he WANTED me, he's a man after all, I was more the one that moved the physical stuff along. Im sure he thought about it moving towards sex throughout the length of the affair, from the beginning, because that's a natural thought to have but Im not sure that he thought he could or would go through with it to that extent. I really was the first woman he'd been with in some time besides his wife. In fact, I remember one time right before he moved to his new house, he was at his old apartment finishing some last minute cleaning of things at night after work, and I stopped by as there was no one there, the place was pretty much empty of furniture and everything else, and I tried to initiate sex at one point and he wouldn't do it. His body's reaction indicated otherwise, but he really did hold back. But he didn't totally stop the affair either. he kept up with the kissing, the hand holding, the hugging, and, occasionally, the oral encounters. Sex was something that took him, it seemed, quite a while to mentally prepare for, in whatever way he did, I dont know. At some point I finally told him, I really wanted him, but if he couldnt do it, I wasnt going to encourage it anymore, that I'd be friends with him if that was better. When he finally seemed to start to be more "ok" with it, surprisingly, was after that period of near-year NC, when he'd admitted to me his wife was pregnant with the last child, when we had just begun to hang out again. At first he'd tried to whole "lets just be friends" shtick, and again i said "ok, if thats what it takes to see you, we can be friends". And honestly, I was expecting him to just break out and not speak to me again, have some guilt fit, as soon as the child was born. Instead, after two weeks at home helping out, he went back to work, and immediately called me up and came over. I answered the door after coming out of the shower in a towel, and that was that. He never had another problem with sex after that day, don't know why.

 

OWoman brings up a good point about why he's asking about you and kids and all, to get a time line from you of how long he has. And she has an excellent point, he treats women, lousy like they're for HIS needs only, to hell with their wants, that won't change Kis it's who he is. You've only seen what he wants you to see. Not the entire man.

 

This could very well be true I suppose. He's asked me before what I intended to do with this situation once I was in my own relationship. I never really answered him.

 

I still don't get how you won't talk to him. Speculating obviously does no good. I could see your logic if you were more than happy to have a f*buddy, send him on his way and go back to your life, but clearly you're not, the answer is talk. (then walk)

 

Im not sure what to say. Isnt that silly? I feel like generally I can be very proficient at expressing myself and when it comes to him, sitting in front of him, I don't know what to say. When I try when he's here, I feel like I forget everything I wanted to say and I start stuttering and faltering like some idiotic lovelorn teenager. Pathetic. How do you think I shoudl word it? maybe if someone helps me word it out beforehand and I kind of "practice" i wont forget like im missing something or forgetting to say something or that he's not getting the full gist of my concerns. because when i start getting upset/whiny i know i sound like im joking, because Im feeling so emotional at the moment that I can't think clearly enough to word myself the way I want, and i think perhaps he doesnt take it seriously. thinks im playing around with him or that its not really that important to me. Partially because I might say "it upsets me when you dont make effort to hang out with me once in a while", for example, btu then i just pout and stand there not knowing what else to say, and end up just telling him to leave instead.

 

My husband (yeah we talk about all sorts of stuff and he knows my drive to help people) had a point when I told him about this. When I explained how you said MM looks horrified at the mention of divorce, my husband said "well for someone not wanting that, he is certainly setting himself up TO BE divorced" i.e. from her, he doesn't get final say I'm sure you're aware. So maybe ask him that. Point blank why is he doing this if he's not okay with it. If divorce is something one is so deathly afraid of, then one wouldn't even stick their toe in dangerous waters to test it out.

 

I think i might have asked him before. His answer on why h continues to do something that makes him so anxious and guilty? "i dont know why i cant be faithful to her". I dont thik he wants to consider the causes....because that opens up a whole new can of worms for him. that maybe he isn't (gasp) as happy with his marriage as he thought. That maybe he really did marry the wrong person, and that even though she's a "nice woman and great mother" and they managed to create three beautiful children, that this doesn't mean they are right for each other. I ask him "have there been any others but me?" and he immediately says no, it's only been me. In over 8 years, he's only been with her, and me. I believe that 100%. I have doubts in many other areas, but in that I am confident. Maybe I should ask him again? He's as uncomfortable thinking about it as I am asking, I think. He's never said if she would divorce him if she found outright evidence of his infidelity, so I dont really know if she would. I imagine she also has many things she would consider that wouldnt make it an easy decision. She's not stupid, as he says, and Im sure she didnt fully believe his excuses for my hair on her bed or my photos in his inbox, but she stayed anyway. He works, she doesnt, three kids, a mortgage, cars, life...that's alot to walk away from I guess.

 

It's good you're starting to get ticked, but it's going to take a lot more action than that to walk away. It's like OWL said if you don't like the drama DO something, you hold that key.

 

You're all right in this, he is not holding me down or forcing me to stay. I am getting more ticked off, I really am. I can't deal with this sh*t much longer. It's good to hear your opinions, it keeps me grounded. Like when OWoman said his asking me about my marriage/kid plans for the future could just be that he's testing to see how much longer I might stick around. I need to hear all sides of it or sometimes , even though I usually see things for what they are, I can't help but to get biased sometimes, so that's why i come here- to get every view on the situation. It's easy to miss things when youre so ingrained in it yourself.

 

Thank you for the advice guys, I mean it, sincerely :-)

[KismetGirl]

Yeah so he thinks you're beautiful! Ego feed..Right? And yes you have invested way too much of your self esteem on him because now if you don't get that "feed" you go on a downward spin and get upset, emotional. Stop allowing him to have SO much power over you and your emotions. HE KNOWS this too, so he knows exactly what buttons to push to get what he wants...Selfishly ofcourse.

 

He isn't inlove with you Kis, you know this, so basically you're wasting more years of your life with someone who is into you sexually, thinks you're hot, you're fun and all but he doesn't share his life with you in the sense of kids, family, friends.

 

If he ended up in the hospital, would he call you? Could you go see him? My guess is no to both. And, if by chance you found out about it, he more than likely would not allow you anywhere near the hospital. Just something to think about..

 

Funny you say that as I was talking to an old co worker of mine (a guy) who was having an affair with a MW we worked with, and this co-worker, who is a pretty young guy only 28 years old, had a heart attack not long ago, and he told me that as he was having the heart attack, he thought of MW. He hadn't seen her in a while but he'd had a hard time getting over her, and at that moment he thought of her while he could hav died and it made him think he needed to change his life and get over her because it depressed him that someone who probably wouldnt even visit him in the hospital was almost the last person he'd thought of.

 

So I brought that up to MM, who happens to know both of them as we all worked together at one point, and I said "how sad that two people can claim to love each other and then when one is in the hospital the other one wont even go see them". And strangely, I was talking about it from the point of, if I was in the hospital I would be upset if he didnt come to see me, but he thought I meant it from the other angle (eg- if MM had been in hospital) and he jokes "yeah if im ever in the hospital please dont come see me" and i said "ok...." and he immediately said "uh, KG, im kidding, you know that right." Yeah, I really dont know if he was kidding. Im pretty sure he wouldnt want me and his wife standing there holding hands over his bedside together. But who the hell knows.

 

In other situations where Ive mentioned that I won't date or sleep with guys that are my friends he said "but didnt we start out as friends?" and i said "i dont really know what you are. I know that I can call my friends on weekends, and call them when im upset and talk to them and know they care. I dont really know what that makes you" and he got upset. I can be harsh with him in person but its mostly a defense mechanism on my part. He pisses me off with his questions sometimes. As if he wants to hear that I care about him, but then Im also supposed to be ok with the limits our "friendship" has, so I tell him i dont consider him my friend, my boyfriend, and I dont really have a title for him. he is just MM. c;est la vie. if he wants a title he should give me a more defined relatonship.

[ForumFool]

Hi KS I am semi new so if you have in the past replied to comments like mine I am sorry to repeat....I have seen posts by you in other areas of the site and you seem so nice....and VERY bright. I am stunned and saddened that as young as you are you are wasting your life by choice on a man who is using you. I know you too gain something from this so though I do not know what..so, I cannot address that.....I wanted to comment on a few things in hopes they may help. I tend to be able to see things from all angles . Though my husband cheated on me at least online...I was not IN LOVE with him so I am not the hurt because I love him kinda gal...thus I am able to be objective.

 

1. I am wondering of the spam and old email addy thing was not a freudian slip of sorts

 

2. Do you really think the people who are giving the party and going to be at this BBQ would be your friends if they KNEW you were still having the A with MM? I do not know of anyone who would knowingly invite a mistress to a party with the WS (lol hope I have all the abbrevs down by now) it just isn't done. Bob *still* works with MM his loyalty would be with him.

 

3 I am stunned that you beleive MM about his sex life with his wife. Do you honestly think he would say he ate her out 2 days ago when he is after a piece from you? She may be on her period and he will come to you....Don't go by his word...ditto on the relationship at home ..no man or women who is getting some on the side will say "yeah babe I love her...she's better in bed but has been up a lot with the baby so I came to you for some and hey it's newer " ..They aren't going to say they LOVE their spouse...On top of all this, you are taking HIS word and that of a few people around them perhaps......but yet...you are still a side dish 4 years later. Now had you said HIS WIFE SAID I would hold a different viewpoint....but she didn't....you in all honesty do NOT know what goes on in bed and really in his heart at home. You just go by his word.

 

I am older than you...you are smarter than I... I can tell by your writing style..However you seem to be lacking in relationship skills......I say that not in a nasty way (tis the net and thus one can sound nasty and actually are being or trying to be helpful) sweetie, he doesn't love YOU he never has...this man has lied to YOU, his wife...his kids, his friends......I feel you are setting yourself and his family up for much pain with the BBQ issue and the email/spam thing....This relationship is going nowhere....he in his own way loves his wife and is bored with life so he got himself a toy....sadly that is you and you let him play with your mind and body...STOP IT.

 

I also wonder what is so wonderful about this man besides a good time in bed...He doesn't take you out much from what I read...he talks to you but nothing tooooo deep....Add to that he is a liar...a cheat .....and a coward...hell the dude can't even afford a haircut if I read you right..thus he cannot even manage his money...You said his wife wanted the kids but umm he had to have a bone to stick in her to make them....SHE got it up...he could have used a condom....or failed to get it up...or said no not tonight.....sigh wake up before it is too late...you were 22 when you met this dude I take it now you are pushing 30

 

I also think I read where you said there was only one other guy you really cared about ....I think you said he didn't live in the country..I am tired so if I am wrong sorry....but if so....don't you think it is telling that you only want men who are unavailable??

 

I think if you told MM you will stop seeing him and move to another state to go to med school (a good move btw) unless he jointly spoke with W he would let you go so fast you would be dizzy.....

 

Leaving WITH kids has been done..I have friends who have done it.....leaving her and moving to your place could be done ...he could still see the kids...he just doesn't want to leave ...he likes his life more with her than with you...That may sound harsh and it's not meant to hurt you ...but man you need to wake up....and get away.....Go to med school forget men for a while ...find YOU and learn to like YOU for a while.....when you look back you will see some MM loser who could not afford a haircut and didn't care about anyone...the man doesn't even care about himself he shows no self respect....Anyhow I wish you the BEST I really do......but you won't have it as it stand

 

hugs

[Owl]

Well words and actions dont always match now do they? It's easier to say things than to act on them. Perhaps emotionally-masochistic was an improper term to use to describe myself, as that implies I enjoy feeling emotional pain. I don't.

 

They don't when you're not honest...especially not honest with yourself. If you ARE being honest...then yes, they do.

 

If you really didn't want this situation...you'd do something to change it.

 

You're not making ANY effort, of any kind at all, to change it. All you're doing is coming onto this site and complaining about it, and hoping for people to either feel sorry for you or play into the drama when they don't.

 

That's ALL you've done. At least based off of your extensive posting here.

 

I know you are looking at the situation from a different angle than I am, but in your own way you know what it's like to not want to let go of someone who has caused you pain...right? If you had wanted to be so black and white about it, you might have just let your wife go when she was crying about her lost lover, instead of working with her to win her back and fix your marriage.

 

I can't say, of course, that we are in the same position because we're on opposite ends of it, so it's hard to compre, but it's a similiar feeling where you are being hurt by someone and yet you love them and don't really want them to leave, even though they've gone and been selfish and hurt you. You were able to take more direct action and perhaps give her more ultimatums but I don't have that same leverage as you do....his wife, unfortunately, as the holder of his children, his house, his friends and in laws, his life for the past ten years.....even if she doesn't have his heart fully, she has alot more leverage than I do so it's hard for me to tell someone I love to pi*s off. Ive never had to tell someone I love to go away before, it's the most bizarre notion in the world. I've broken up with poeple, but it was because I just didn't want them, so its easy to say "take it or leave it" and if they left, I just didnt care. Not so here.

 

Why do you need leverage against him to make yourself happy? What "ultimatums" are you considering issuing? That he leave his wife or lose you? He's already TOLD you that he's not leaving his wife. He's already shown you...repeatedly, over four years plus...that he's not willing to leave her for you.

 

Regardless, you have no leverage for two reasons...neither having to do with his wife.

 

You have no leverage because he's already demonstrated to you that he's not leaving her. If he's forced to choose...he'd choose her. He's shown you that for four years. Therefore, threatening to break it off with him if he doesn't leave her is meaningless.

 

Second, he knows that you won't do it. You've been telling him that and showing him that for the last four years. He knows that he can get WHATEVER he wants from you, and you'll lap it up. You might, maybe, whine and complain about it...but you've never once held a firm boundary against him on anything for the last four years. Why on EARTH would he believe any ultimatum from you now? Ergo...no leverage.

 

I hope it's been evident from the way I speak, if not perhaps my actions full on , that my feelings towards the situation have hardened a little bit. I still love him as much as I did, but I'm getting more tired- mentally, physically, emotionally. Eventually i won't be able to deal with this anymore. Maybe this week, maybe next week, maybe in a couple months. Believe me when I say I dont intend to sit around another four years....that's just crazy. Well, you know...

 

It's not evident, in your words or your actions. You are saying, you are doing, the exact same things you were when you first arrived here. Nothing at all has changed. You're still giving the same excuses, still getting angry at the same people for the same reasons...and he's still coming by for his morning booty call...and getting it.

 

You're still complaining about it...same as you were when you arrived. But you're still only complaining about it...with NO intention of change whatsoever.

 

That's why I keep telling you that you should just accept it.

 

Be PROUD to be his mistress. Flaunt it. Revel in it.

 

You should...because if you read all these posts...it's what DEFINES you right now. More than being a med student. More than being anything else...you see yourself as his mistress, and that defines who you are in this moment...to you, and to everyone else whom you've confided this to.

 

If you won't change it...you may as well take pride in it...be more like Lizzie60.

 

I don't care much for her morals, her lifestyle, or much else about her...but I can say that she knows what she is, and is PROUD of it.

 

It strikes me as your only alternative, since you truly don't have any intention of changing the situation at all.