9 months later, WS (EA) describes feelings of "great peace" for OP co-worker...

[Owl]

At this point, I'd suggest an even different tactic...one that I nearly never recommend.

 

Have you ever heard of the "180 plan"?

 

It sounds to me like you've been pursuing your wife...been fighting for your marriage...for the last nine months. No, I don't believe that you've taken the real steps you should have to fix the situation...but that's irrelevent in what I'm about to suggest.

 

The bottom line is that your wife has watched you beg and plead with her to end contact with OM for the last nine months, and hasn't truly cared enough to change.

 

I say, go the other way.

 

Step back from her. Stop pushing her for NC...and step back on your interactions with her as well. Start putting some distance between the two of you.

 

Take up a new hobby (or an old one) that has nothing to do with her. Don't ask her to join. Stop vying for her attention. Let her do her own thing...and you do yours.

 

Stop asking her about OM, about her day, about anything to do with her. Focus on taking care of you.

 

Stop with the "I love you's". Tell her that you love her if she initiates it, but YOU stop initiating it yourself. Same with any real meaningful interaction with her. Stop trying to engage her...step back, become more independent. Start taking care of you, let her take care of herself.

 

This has two benefits.

 

First, she'll sense the gap. And you'd be amazed at how many times this will cause her to move towards you to fill that gap...even if she doesn't realize that's what she's doing.

 

Second, it helps you build up your own self-esteem and self-worth...which are both badly depleted right now after all that you've been doing. It DOES help you become more independent. It makes you more self-sufficient.

 

Give this some thought.

 

And if she asks why you've changed...tell her the truth. You've given up...you're done being the one fighting for your marriage. Either she takes the active measures to do what she needs to do on her part, or the marriage ends up wherever it ends up...you've done your part on your own for too long to keep it up.

[bentnotbroken]

I agree with Owl, 180 may be just thing. Take care of yourself and let her take care of herself. Focus on you and the kids.

[tami-chan]

Tami, you asked me "what is it about this "friendship" that bothers you so much?" The answer is that she fell for this guy and carried on an EA behind my back for quite some time. I discovered it by reading her personal emails to/from him (I had never read her emails before, ever.) Then I discovered 150 private cell phone calls, then text messages. Then I found her work emails to/from him. He's the I.T. guy in their 65-person office, and he hooked up instant messaging just between the two of them. They went out alone numerous times, which she lied about (and which I know on this forum 100% convicts her of PA as well. Of that, I will never know for sure unless she tells me.) There's more, but I think you get it. The evidence was overwhelming, yet it took her nearly two months to finally admit to "developing tender feelings and a crush" on him. I found her journals where she wrote "she couldn't tell me the truth because it would 'end our marriage'" and that "it was 'so hard to end that truth' despite my knowing about it." She also used the word "love" to describe her feelings for him in her journal.

 

You asked, "What if it IS really JUST a friendship?" I don't doubt it started out that way, but over the years that friendship grew, and she eventually crossed over to the dark side. It's all very cliche', but it happened, and it's real.

 

 

Well, now you know that truth...maybe she is waiting for you to end the marriage.

[lostsunsets]

Oh, and another thing. Did you know that Buddha was married and had at least one child. Guess what, he deserted them. Yep, left them cold. So you can tell your WW that buddha and her have a lot in common. On the other hand Jesus said "If a man does not take care of his family, he is worse then an unbeliever. The Bible also says "Do not forsake the wife of your youth" how about this one "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, and gave himself up for it". So ask her since she is such a respecter of Buddha. Just what does he say about loving and providing for your family?

[troubadour]

At this point, I'd suggest an even different tactic...one that I nearly never recommend.

 

Have you ever heard of the "180 plan"?

 

It sounds to me like you've been pursuing your wife...been fighting for your marriage...for the last nine months. No, I don't believe that you've taken the real steps you should have to fix the situation...but that's irrelevent in what I'm about to suggest.

 

The bottom line is that your wife has watched you beg and plead with her to end contact with OM for the last nine months, and hasn't truly cared enough to change.

 

I say, go the other way.

 

Step back from her. Stop pushing her for NC...and step back on your interactions with her as well. Start putting some distance between the two of you.

 

Take up a new hobby (or an old one) that has nothing to do with her. Don't ask her to join. Stop vying for her attention. Let her do her own thing...and you do yours.

 

Stop asking her about OM, about her day, about anything to do with her. Focus on taking care of you.

 

Stop with the "I love you's". Tell her that you love her if she initiates it, but YOU stop initiating it yourself. Same with any real meaningful interaction with her. Stop trying to engage her...step back, become more independent. Start taking care of you, let her take care of herself.

 

This has two benefits.

 

First, she'll sense the gap. And you'd be amazed at how many times this will cause her to move towards you to fill that gap...even if she doesn't realize that's what she's doing.

 

Second, it helps you build up your own self-esteem and self-worth...which are both badly depleted right now after all that you've been doing. It DOES help you become more independent. It makes you more self-sufficient.

 

Give this some thought.

 

And if she asks why you've changed...tell her the truth. You've given up...you're done being the one fighting for your marriage. Either she takes the active measures to do what she needs to do on her part, or the marriage ends up wherever it ends up...you've done your part on your own for too long to keep it up.

 

 

Owl... me thinks that it is too late for this approach to be effective.

 

My guess is that his wife, on her emotional level, has already classified him a "doormat" and it would be very difficult to change it at this point. Actually it is almost impossible to change it... not after nine months. At this point it is more likely that she will interpret it as an abandonment of the marriage on his part and use it to further justify her affair with OM in her own mind.

 

It is effective method if there is something what can be saved in a relationship or marriage but not at this point... too late for it.

 

Just my $0.019999.

[Owl]

You may well be right, Trabadour.

 

But starting down this path MIGHT shock her outta her ennui...because it's a totally different tack than he's done before.

 

It might also help 5&10 start healing in his own right as well...since it'll start moving him away from his current, constant fight to save a marriage that his wife doesn't appear to have an interest in repairing.

 

It'll either help him get her to wake up and fix it, or it'll prepare him to move on.

[imagine]

No further contact.

 

No point in council otherwise. Leave town if necessary.

[2sure]

Your wife had an EA. From the parts you shared that were in her journal, at the time it was happening she seemed to want to end it and did not want to lose the marriage. So, she knew it was wrong and knew that even tho it was not a PA - she betrayed you. She struggled with this, but didnt stop until you found out - is that right?

 

From her comments about whats real and what it isnt - she seems to grasp that her feelings and emotions were clouded in an affair fog. What could have or should have been a friendship became tainted by the betrayal.

 

It is upsetting that she is still is working with the OM, and she has been sending resumes but still works there. Is she doing all that she can - to find a new job? Should she quit without a new job?

 

She apparently still has feelings for OM which is a real blow to you. And because she seems to be being honest with you regarding the feelings - that must be frustrating. So, she has admitted her feelings up to the point of being "in love" with him.

 

What do you want your wife to do? What do you wish she could honestly say?

[Dexter Morgan]

For about an hour and a half, in a very calm and civil tone, I said every variation of "you love him" or "you fell in love with him and still love him" and "I don't know how much longer you expect me to endure a situation where you're in love with OP and still work with him..." etc. (she's sent out 6 resumes in 9 months; we have two small children; our 20th anniversary is on May 27th. (I know the wrath that will rain on me from this board for still living in this house. I can take it.)

 

On the contrary, the wrath would be that SHE is still living in the house. You did nothing wrong here. SHE was the one that developed feelings for someone outside the marriage.

 

 

Anyway, over the course of this long, calm, civil conversation, I must have said some sort of variation of "you still love him" 15 different times, to which she would just stare down in her lap or just look at me quietly.

 

Which to me indicates a "yes".

 

 

The times she did respond, she said things like "my brain is mush" or "it's not real" or "it's not reality".

 

psychobabble mean nothing "words" to cloak reality. When scared to face the truth, they will say bulls##t like, "I'm confused" or "it just happened".

 

 

Since it was an EA, she's really had a hard time admitting, I mean really, really acknowledging and admitting what she did was "crossing the line" since there was no sex. "Haven't you ever had an innocent crush on somebody?"

 

An innocent crush is not an EA. A crush involves a silly admiration for someone with only one person engaging in said "crush".

 

An EA takes two people and actual interaction. She is downplaying what she did....don't let her fool you.

 

 

But it's hard to explain...after this fairly civil discussion where she at least, in her own way, sort of acknowlegded what I've felt all along, I felt some sort of relief that we were at least in the ballpark of honesty. Sometimes I wish they'd have just f***** so she couldn't cloak herself in the silly "I never crossed the line" defense.

 

How do you know she didn't just f***? Cheaters have a way of telling half truths to cover up whole lies. If your answer is, "because she told me she didn't have sex with him".....well you can't believe that as far as you can throw her. Maybe she did, and maybe she didn't. All I'm saying is don't listen to her if she says they didn't, she will lie about it til the cows come home.

 

 

She also wrote in a journal entry that "I don't know if OP shares that love with me." Oh, but the denials...I can't begin to tell you. And when I tell her I read her journal entries, she's goes ballistic about the "violation!!!"

 

well here is where I'm gonna get damn harsh. She goes batsh#t because you read her journal? F##K her! She is cheating on you. She has no basis to be offended here. You needed answers because she is cheating and lying, and you found a way to get your answers. She can go blow with her anger about you violating her "privacy".

 

 

(yell loud enough about the violation and she doesn't have to address the content. "Those were my own private musings, and they weren't meant for your eyes!" (Oh, I see...so that negates the sentiments, I suppose?)

 

I'd have said, "ya, and apparantly you aren't meant only for my eyes either"

 

 

But now she was saying that five days ago she said "THAT'S not based in reality" as opposed to "IT'S not based in reality"...(what is the meaning of IS?)

 

What does it really matter what her perception of reality is at this point?

 

The REALITY is, she is a cheater and betrayed you. So it matters not what kind of whacko psychological BS she writes in a journal about which frickin' dimension she thinks she is in.

 

She cheated, end of story. THAT is what she needs to be dealing with.

 

 

She then said, "You really want to know what I think about OP right now? When I think of him, when I go by his office (ten feet away from hers), I simply feel peace. Great peace.

 

Well gee....that works for her doesn't it. What about you?

 

So when is she quitting that job?

 

 

I think she was trying to make me feel better by distancing herself from the word "love". But peace? She feels "great peace" when she's near him? Lovely. 9 months since D-Day and the total annihilation of our marriage, and she still feels "peace" when she gets near OP. I would have hoped she would feel at least a little uncomfortable.

 

She is full of it. She is trying to make you think she can handle working with this guy without having any feelings for him.

 

She isn't at peace. She just wants you to think that.

 

Tell me, just how hard IS she trying to find another job? You say she sent out resumes, but is it a half assed efffort?

 

If she even expects this marriage to stay, leaving that job is priority #1.

[five&dime]

Owl - yes, I am familiar with the 180, but it's been a while since I read it. I'll go back and familiarize myself and work to implement it. I think you're right and there is a lot there which will help me with this situation.

 

Lostsunsets - I didn't know that about Buddha and his leaving his family. Very interesting. I look forward to sharing this with my "enlightened and mindful" WS. Maybe she's following the path. Who knows.

 

Imagine - I'm beginning to think that you're absolutely right. I've quickly come to believe that MC is not getting us anywhere as long as contact continues. It's just a waste of money and my time.

 

2sure - yes, she didn't struggle with her EA (at least I'm assuming she didn't struggle with it...) until after I found out about it. She didn't write in her journal that "it was so hard to end it..." until AFTER I found out about it. At least she wrote "I need to TRY to end it." (ie - after I found out, she still remained in her EA; I can only assume, and there's certainly consensus here, despite what she says, that she's still fully immersed in her EA even if she's won't admit it to me. When I've told her she's done nothing to help me here, she's responded with "I HAVE done a lot!" (meaning the private phone calls have stopped, for which I'm assuming she wants a ribbon or something. Contact remains. I told her last week that she still has a personal relationship with OM, and she admitted, "Yes, I do. But it's wrapped around work-related issues." Okay then, honey. My bad.

 

Heroic - yes, OM's farts apparently do still smell like pixie dust to WS. Classic line.

 

Dexter - I need you on retainer. You clearly eviscerated every bull**** line of defense she tosses out. Of course, I have, too. To answer your question, she has put out exactly six resumes in nine months. She's never leaving the job unless I make enough money for the both of us, which I don't. My business is moving in the right direction, but it could be another six months before I could financially be in the position to demand she quit or else without the loss of her income putting us into a severe hole. My ability to act has definitely been hamstrung by finances, something I hope to remedy soon. But she has shown a distinct disinterest in removing herself from that job. And that to this day she feels "great peace" toward OM, who's a whopping 7 steps down the hall from her...wtf? Who feels "great peace" toward anybody in the office? She thought those words would help me to some degree. She's lost.

[bentnotbroken]

Excuse me, I am rather crude on occasion:o, but I sure hope your wife doesn't hold a job with national security, she sounds like a twit. Great peace my Aunt Ruth's flappy azz.

[five&dime]

Actually, she's second in command of a 90-person multi-million dollar company. Now whether being that AND a twit are mutually exclusive, I have no idea. (Truth be told, she's pretty damned intelligent...but she's obviously human with some human failings, like the rest of us. She has certainly not acted intelligently in this crisis. Nor have I, I readily admit.)

[bentnotbroken]

You do love her don't you? Looking for the good even while she hurts you. Damn you're strong.

[tami-chan]

How about calling the OM and tell her that his relationship with YOUR WIFE is inappropriate and ask him to back off. Also ask him to be considerate and not stir any trouble by telling your wife that you called him.

 

If that doesn't work, expose to everyone, including their coworkers, her parents, siblings, etc. that they are having inappropriate relationship.

 

Hi raining, 5&dime already answered this question...please see post #11;)...

[five&dime]

Regarding my personally confronting OM--or WS demanding NC from OM-- WS expresses great fear that she'll lose her job. I've asked her if she really fears OM would cause problems for her because it just seems so unthinkable that OM, such a "decent and caring and gentle guy", would cause trouble for his really wonderful "friend".

 

Plus, it's just a preposterous hypothesis. Can you picture the conversation? OM telling the boss, "Boss, I have a very close and personal relationship (EA) with WS, and her husband, who had no idea about us, found out about us, and it's caused all sorts of devastation in their 20-year marriage. Now she demanding that I no longer have a personal relationship with her and to confine any contact 100% to work-related issues! I want her fired immediately!" Just silly.

 

Of course, I want total NC, work, personal or otherwise. I don't care if they're talking about spreadsheets, toner cartridges or their deepest desires, contact is contact. Whoever said that "limiting contact with co-worker/affair partner to just work-related issues is okay" hasn't been in this type of a situation.

 

Dexter - to answer your question about how hard she is trying to find another job, the answer is that she has sent out...drumroll please...SIX resumes in 9 months. "But I'm always looking online for stuff! I'm trying!"

[Dexter Morgan]

Dexter - I need you on retainer. You clearly eviscerated every bull**** line of defense she tosses out.

 

Well I didn't always have this great sense of perception. I didn't recognize any of this til after it happened to me and the shock of it all was over. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

 

Of course, I have, too. To answer your question, she has put out exactly six resumes in nine months. She's never leaving the job unless I make enough money for the both of us, which I don't. My business is moving in the right direction, but it could be another six months before I could financially be in the position to demand she quit or else without the loss of her income putting us into a severe hole.

 

Understandable. I wouldn't advise just dropping the current job without another one to go to. But she needs to be putting out 1 resume per week. 6 in 9 months isn't sh#t. If she wanted to keep the marriage and is committed to you, getting another job should be priority #1. anything less shows that she could really care less.

 

6 in 9 months tells me she isn't too damn interested in making this right.

 

 

My ability to act has definitely been hamstrung by finances, something I hope to remedy soon. But she has shown a distinct disinterest in removing herself from that job. And that to this day she feels "great peace" toward OM, who's a whopping 7 steps down the hall from her...wtf? Who feels "great peace" toward anybody in the office? She thought those words would help me to some degree. She's lost.

 

Maybe you might need to tell her that for YOU to have great peace would be to have a wife you can trust. And that may mean having a wife that isn't her.

[Dexter Morgan]

Actually, she's second in command of a 90-person multi-million dollar company.

 

No wonder the economy is in shambles.

 

 

Now whether being that AND a twit are mutually exclusive, I have no idea. (Truth be told, she's pretty damned intelligent...but she's obviously human with some human failings, like the rest of us.

 

Nobody is perfect, but being a cheater is one damn HUGE failing.

 

2nd in command at a multi-million dollar company....and she is playing footsie with another worker? 2nd in command needs to be WORKING, not using the office as their own little meat market hotspot.

[lostsunsets]

five & dime, If she is serious about going N/C, tell her this. Tell her to let it die slowly. And that you must know about every text message. She texts you, tells you what she will say. Then she texts him. At the end of the day you check her phone to see if there are any other contacts. She also shows you her un-deleted e-mails.

[2sure]

She isnt making enough effort to find another position. That lack of effort = not taking the affair and it's results seriously.

 

I mean if she was sending resumes out all over - considering other options, like taking a paycut.....OP would feel confident she got it and was willing to do the recovery work. Even if another position did not result, OP would know she was sincere.

 

Without aggressively looking for another job, never mind finding one....WS is not taking one of the first steps required for recovery.

 

So, there is no real forward movement. WS has been merely been inconvenienced, not brought to consequences. And I'm not saying this as in - she should feel punishment...but without real consequences, tangible ones like changing jobs.....

 

Any other steps taken are almost superficial.

 

Now I get it.

[jnj express]

If your Wife is 2nd in command of a company she has some power there, she certainly could remove herself from the area that her Affair partner works in, she could find an office where she has little or no probability of contact. She could also limit her need to associate with Affair partner IE. work related issues. SHE CAN CUT THE CONTACT IF SHE WANTS TO. i have read this thread a couple of times now, and you have come up with every excuse in the book to do NOTHING about this situation. You bluster a little about this idea and that idea, but WHAT HAVE YOU ACTUALLY DONE. Either you are going to force the issue or you might just as well sit and watch her do what she wants. In an A. the betrayed partner must take a strong stand in/re. to whatever he/she does. The betrayed partner must take control of the situation and his/her destiny, or the cheater will just continue on laughing at you behind your back. Once again you need to do something.

[seibert253]

5 @ 10, after reading through this a 2nd time, doesn't seem to me you've done, or been pursuasive enough, to take control of your marriage. Unless you do that, your wife will continue to use you as a dormat. I do not think your comfortable with that. So far, it doesn't seem she sees or feels any consequences to her actions. Do you really think all they're talking about at work is work? Come on!

Want to get her attention, seperate, file for divorce, and have her served at work. Go NC. Don't return her calls, don't call her. If MC isn't working as you wish, try another counselor. Each has there on style and approach to helping heal yourself and your marriage.

She has no incentive to finding another job, and is feeling no need to stop the disrespectful way she's treating you.

Time to take the bull by the horns and give her a choice:

Make some changes to fix your broken marriage, or divorce and go our seperate ways.

[In Like Flynn]

Then I discovered 150 private cell phone calls, then text messages. Then I found her work emails to/from him. He's the I.T. guy in their 65-person office, and he hooked up instant messaging just between the two of them. They went out alone numerous times, which she lied about (and which I know on this forum 100% convicts her of PA as well. Of that, I will never know for sure unless she tells me.) There's more, but I think you get it.

 

What he did with the setting up an one on one IM. Will get him fired not her. If she were fired over any of this she could sue.

 

Go to other man and tell him your have evidence of his at least an attempt to have an affair with your wife. You will go to HR if he does not quit right now. Or just go to HR.

[Owl]

Good point, Flynn.

 

Setting up that IM session was a clear violation...security standards as well as ethical ones.

 

It also meant that they conducted the emotional affair DURING WORK HOURS, USING COMPANY ASSETS.

 

End result...you should take this to her boss (since she's #2 in the company), and tell him point blank about the whole thing. Ask him if this is the ethical standards that he expects of his company and employees...and see what happens from there.

 

So what if she gets fired? That means NC gets established, and she's free to REALLY start looking for a new job. If he gets fired...even better.

 

And at the end of the day, how angry can she be if they get "found out" this way? It's not the fact that you told her boss that caused her to get fired...it's because they violated policy.

[In Like Flynn]

I was thinking more of a motivating tool to force the OM to leave the job first!!! He seems afraid that his wife will hate him if she loses her job. But see if he can get the OM to disappear. If not then he has to do like you said go to the boss and get him fired.

[jj33]

Its not about the OM its about his W. Even if the OM leaves if she wants to be in touch with him she will be (if his W doesnt let loose on him and scare him out of being in touch - how do you explain that firing)

 

Why not contact the OM's wife?