Why do women get mad when men speak honestly

[shadowplay]

There is some misogyny on this board but if you ask me it is nothing compared to the bile that women on this board and in general spew against men. Get a group of women together and they will spew the worst hate against the men in their lives but let a man on here vent about the drama he is going through and you have a bunch of women ready to jump down his throat. This board is supposed to be therapy but yet men are still supposed to bite our tongue. Just look at the divorce forum on this board and you see how many good men get utterly screwed when they do nothing but love the women in their life so are these men not supposed to be bitter? Don't they have the right to vent. Isn't it understandable if a man who has seen this crap over and over again wonders if it is even worth it trying to build a relationship with a woman? Why is it that woman can bash men until there is no tommorow but are so thin skinned when the focus is on them?

 

Woggle, all the hate can't be healthy. You are such an incredibly bitter man. I feel sorry for you.

[soserious1]

Wow.

 

A person wouldn't know if a guy, after NOT going to a strip club, were thinking of his sex partner or conjuring up an image in his head.

 

True enough but if one's been at the strip club all evening it's a pretty safe bet as to what's got him all hot and bothered. I'd rather he satisfy his lust where he

got it.

 

He gets the freedom to lust openly for any woman he'd like and express permission to pursue that woman to satisfy him. I get the freedom from being used as some sort of human kleenex or fleshlight.

 

Porn and strip clubs aren't the problem imho, the entire concept of till death do us part monogamy is.

[donnamaybe]

True enough but if one's been at the strip club all evening it's a pretty safe bet as to what's got him all hot and bothered. I'd rather he satisfy his lust where he

got it.

 

He gets the freedom to lust openly for any woman he'd like and express permission to pursue that woman to satisfy him. I get the freedom from being used as some sort of human kleenex or fleshlight.

 

I would tend to feel that way, I suppose, if my guy were that kind to want to go to a strip club all the time. It wouldn't bother me if he wanted to on occasion. He hasn't gone in the three years we've been together, so it's a non-issue for us at this point.

[mr.dream merchant]

A strip club I wouldn't really consider lusting. As a guy I'm able to seperate emotions from viewing and appreciating a women's physique. When I see a bangin ass shorty in the mall or in my class, I'm not lusting for her or catching feelings or any of that stuff. I'm not conversating with this chick, getting to know her on a personal level, its just visual and that's as far as it will ever go. I'm just appreciating her physique. "Damn she has a lovely ass" "Wow look at those knockers" That's all it is. Visual. It doesn't go past that for me. Its like looking at nice cars. I'd expect my GF to feel the same way when checking out some guy who's hunkier than me. The strip club is just that. Purely visual, unless you'd prefer physical contact with the performers, something I do not approve of if I'm in a relationship. These strippers aren't replacing anybody in any way, form, or fashion. They're just there to look at while you enjoy some time with friends and family. If that were the case, me lusting for and whatever else kind of fear women have about strip clubs, I'd be in there by myself on a day to day basis. It really isn't the case. Its more of a comradery thing. All the guys get to together to have fun, and what common interest do a bunch of guys share? Tits and ass. Appreciating tits and ass besides your SO in my opinion is just healthy human behavior. I'd expect the same from a group of girls at a strip club. My GF can get wet all she wants off of some hot male strippers cock and balls and his awesome body, or jawline or whatever. As long as she keeps it purely visual, I'm fine.

[soserious1]

A strip club I wouldn't really consider lusting. As a guy I'm able to seperate emotions from viewing and appreciating a women's physique. When I see a bangin ass shorty in the mall or in my class, I'm not lusting for her or catching feelings or any of that stuff. I'm not conversating with this chick, getting to know her on a personal level, its just visual and that's as far as it will ever go. I'm just appreciating her physique. "Damn she has a lovely ass" "Wow look at those knockers" That's all it is. Visual. It doesn't go past that for me. Its like looking at nice cars. I'd expect my GF to feel the same way when checking out some guy who's hunkier than me. The strip club is just that. Purely visual, unless you'd prefer physical contact with the performers, something I do not approve of if I'm in a relationship. These strippers aren't replacing anybody in any way, form, or fashion. They're just there to look at while you enjoy some time with friends and family. If that were the case, me lusting for and whatever else kind of fear women have about strip clubs, I'd be in there by myself on a day to day basis. It really isn't the case. Its more of a comradery thing. All the guys get to together to have fun, and what common interest do a bunch of guys share? Tits and ass. Appreciating tits and ass besides your SO in my opinion is just healthy human behavior. I'd expect the same from a group of girls at a strip club. My GF can get wet all she wants off of some hot male strippers cock and balls and his awesome body, or jawline or whatever. As long as she keeps it purely visual, I'm fine.

 

I like to cut to the chase, get to the meat of the matter if you will. I think porn and strip clubs are a concept used to try to prop up a concept that's not realistic ie: monogamy.

 

I would prefer to have a relationship with a man where we don't even get into all the BS, he's free to look at whatever he'd like and he's also free to bed whomever he likes. No lies, no BS, no fights over porn,strip clubs and so on.

[peteyj]

That sounds like the lamest excuse I've ever heard for going to a strip club. "keep it visual." I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like a person who has actually gone to a strip club. Even if you just want to go check out some T&A and sit back and relax, most strip clubs and strippers are going to come around and flirt with you. They are going to sit on you depending where you live if it's allowed. They are going to try and get you to get a lap dance or whatever other dances or vip things offered at that club. It's how they make their money. Yeah if you go to some club where the dances just dance around on stage and never come into the audience, then maybe it's all visual. But thats not 99 percent of the strip clubs or go go bars.

 

You might never get a dance or even speak to these girls. But you'd be lying to say they never attempted to speak to you or try to get you to get a lap dance. Which at one point sort of becomes more than just visual no matter how you word it.

[serial muse]

I just think it's a two-edged sword, it can easily be misunderstood.

 

By simply stating what a "real man" ISN'T, you are through a process of elimination telling every men what a "real man" has to be like.

 

What Woggle said to you was uncalled for and very rude. Obviously, not all women are the same, and not even Woggle can truly believe this.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you on that.

 

 

 

 

Come on now, it's not like Woggle is let loose on vulnerable, impressionable minds that can't possibly think for themselves.

 

What Woggle says is not completely false. There are women like that out there. And most men are already aware of this sad fact. However, I don't believe that problem is nearly as widespread as Woggle claims.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not fair to compare JS to Woggle.

 

But JS, you have very little faith in men.

 

You believe that men secretly (or openly) want to deamean their SO, so they watch porn. You believe that men expect their SO to match an unreasonable standard of physical beauty (porn/fashion/Hollywood).

 

And you want men to restore that faith for you. Or at least, that is essentially how I understood your problem.

 

I understand that merely saying that most men aren't like this isn't going to convince you, talk is cheap. But what would you need to happen so your faith in men can be restored?

 

You started the "say something nice about women" thread and then were not too happy with the replies. What kind of replies were you looking for?

 

 

 

 

Woggle, you have made your point and you have made the same point plenty of times now. And frankly, not always in a way that is respectful.

 

But the real question is, what do you want to happen?

 

Option A:

 

Do you want men to agree with you, that they now view their gf or wife as a potential threat and no longer as the woman they love?

 

Do you want to prepare men for the inevitable, so that they are able to strike back when it happens?

 

Which would be dealing with the symptoms, not dealing with the root cause.

 

And who wants to live like that? I am not even sure people can live like that. Trusting someone makes you vulnerable, but without trust, there is nothing.

 

Sure, it would be fantastic if we could prevent being cheated on or being left for no apparent reason. But there is no certainty, we can never tell beforehand, there will always be a risk.

 

 

Option B:

 

Do you want people to share your concern about those women, so they can try to avoid them and minimize the risks?

 

If that is what you want, you need to rethink your approach.

 

 

Or is there another motivation behind your threats. I am just curious. If we know what it is, we might be able to make those threads more useful.

 

I just wanted to say thank you for this post, Stock. It's thoughtful and eliminates hyperbole, and I really, really appreciate it.

 

And of course I agree that there are crappy women out there; it just sucks that they get to somehow set the reputation for an entire gender in the minds of some people. The same is true of men - there are crappy men out there, and they also shouldn't be given the power to set the reputation for the rest.

 

Most people are basically okay, decent people.

 

And I agree that at some point, it'd be really, really nice if Woggle would just explain kindly and thoughtfully what it is he's hoping to accomplish here. I hope it's not to incite people to some kind of war. But I can't make out any other motivation.

 

And Collector - I understand that you might think people are going overboard when they claim Woggle has said most women are evil. It does sound kind of unbelievable. I don't have the energy to go back and find these posts at the moment, but I assure you, he has said this. People are not putting words in his mouth. What he said to donna is not atypical - he has said on multiple occasions that even if a woman on LS loves her man, she's just going to cheat on him and/or leave him. Really. He says this. Please, just do a search.

 

Do I think he means it? I sure hope not. I mean, yeah, on some level I think he means it; he's deeply mistrustful and paranoid. But I also think, like most people, that basically he's just letting off steam to deal with his personal demons. And as an individual it's not a big deal - I'll never run across him so who cares what he thinks, really? Besides which, I happen to know I'm not one of "those women" he likes to rag on - I've never been a walkaway wife, I pay my own way, I don't expect anything from my partner except faithfulness and, ideally, love. So I'm one of the people he's "not talking about." So why speak up?

 

Because it's just craziness. I think he's wrong that it's most women, obviously, because personally, I don't even know one person who's so evil or who has ever incited anybody to cheat or treat her husband/BF/etc. like dirt. I'm sure they exist but most of the time when I read this stuff I wonder - who ARE these people???

 

And those threads often become lightning rods for a pile-on of anger that's increasingly directed at women as a whole. And that's when it gets really weird.

[mr.dream merchant]

That sounds like the lamest excuse I've ever heard for going to a strip club. "keep it visual." I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like a person who has actually gone to a strip club. Even if you just want to go check out some T&A and sit back and relax, most strip clubs and strippers are going to come around and flirt with you. They are going to sit on you depending where you live if it's allowed. They are going to try and get you to get a lap dance or whatever other dances or vip things offered at that club. It's how they make their money. Yeah if you go to some club where the dances just dance around on stage and never come into the audience, then maybe it's all visual. But thats not 99 percent of the strip clubs or go go bars.

 

You might never get a dance or even speak to these girls. But you'd be lying to say they never attempted to speak to you or try to get you to get a lap dance. Which at one point sort of becomes more than just visual no matter how you word it.

 

Ok. Yes I've been to a couple of strip clubs, ones where the strippers did approach me. It is not in their power to control what you do. So what you've just posted sounds like a lame excuse to comfort an insecurity. If that's what makes you feel comfortable, fine, but don't shame anyone for going to a strip because they're confident in their faithfulness and are capable of controlling THEMSELVES. How are you afraid of what the strippers will do? Of course they will come up to you and flirt with you and sit in your lap and try to coerse you into ****. Its their job. But you shouldn't let their actions restrict your SO from having fun. That sounds like you don't trust your SO at all. With that state of mind why even let your SO out into public? You cannot control other people's actions. You cannot stop people from approaching your SO, flirting with them, even coming into physical contact with them. Oh what you think because a stripper sits in a guy's lap he's forced to perform unfaithful acts? Please.

[Trialbyfire]

Yes, that was a good post Stock. You forgot one thing though. Woggle is being hypocritical since he has the only women on this planet who's worth having as an SO. So he incites men to hate women, while having his cake and eating it too...

[St. Nick]

The reason why women get mad when a mad speaks honestly is because they want to live in a fantasy world. They don't want the truth. That's why it hurts so bad, worse than childbirth.....lol

[donnamaybe]

The reason why women get mad when a mad speaks honestly is because they want to live in a fantasy world. They don't want the truth. That's why it hurts so bad, worse than childbirth.....lol

 

OMG! I won't put to words what this post is because I'll get an infraction, but it's the _____est most ____ excuse for _____ I've ever seen.

[Porn_Guy]

i think many women just like to create drama for drama's sake, its all about the emotions and stuff. just look at the tv shows they watch and the books they read...

[PinkKittyKat]

Regarding "women going to strip clubs", I find most men aren't threatened by males in strip clubs. I mean the whole bloody thing is quite laughable, really.

 

Crisco covered musclehead wiggling around in his little banana hammock? Quite unappealing and hilarious.

 

On the other hand, the same sort of possessive jealousy that many women get over men seeking out arousal from other naked women, men tend to get at the idea of their S/O's body being viewed in the same way.

 

Would my guy care if I went to a male strip club? Hahaha, no! He knows DAMN well I wouldn't be turned on in the least. It would probably leave me turned OFF for a week!

 

Would he care if I stripped for a roomful of men? Or even ONE man? If I did what female strippers do, grabbed my bare breasts, humped a pole and did all that?

 

Yes. Yes, he would. He has stated so(not that it's ever a problem, since he hates strip clubs). We simply had an intellectual discussion about it based on an article and forum thread. He thought it was sort of odd that he'd be more bothered by men looking at me, than of me looking at other men.

 

Women seem to value men's minds, their turn-ons, whether they seek out women to be turned on by, viewing it as "only for me".

 

Whereas men seem to value the woman's body, the sexual contact or visual nudity plus sexuality, viewing it as "only for me".

 

I'm sure there are exceptions, but male strippers remain MASSIVELY nonthreatening to most men.

 

~~~

 

On the topic of vitriolic women:

 

I have worked in numerous industries. I have interacted with a LARGE variety of scenes, groups, etc. In every workplace, group of friends of friends, etc. there is always a group of women who will say rotten stuff about men.

 

Maybe the women on here saying this is "made up" have never encountered this, and that's fantastic. These women are not my friends, and if a friend ever said anything like this I'd be horrified. I do hang with some pretty unconventional chicks though.

 

...

 

Examples of things overheard at the water cooler/etc. over the years:

 

"Men are like dogs! Hahaha, you have to rub their noses in it!"

 

"God, my husband is so useless too!"

 

"Boys!" (said in a really snotty disgusted way, not playful)

 

"All men want is a warm wet hole."

 

"All men cheat."

 

"Men are disgusting pigs, that's why we have them for making kids, and have girlfriends! Hahaha!"

 

"Men are so dumb, they really need us around to take care of them!"

 

...

 

There are COUNTLESS more. All along the same lines. And when they say things such as these, it's all "just us girls". There are never men nearby to hear it, and we're all expected to laugh.

 

I am frequently the only one NOT laughing.

 

When I feel comfortable with the people involved I do speak up, and point out the sexism inherent in their statements, same as if they'd told a joke about a Chinese person.

 

This is more widespread than I believe many women want to admit.

 

P.S. If a man says similar things about women at a workplace, they are reprimanded when reported. Noone wants a discrimination/harassment lawsuit. But if a man ever EVER reports this behaviour, he will be met with eyerolls, told to "Get over it", and laughed at. Not to mention the times when it's been my FEMALE BOSSES AND HR LADIES joining in with the crap.

[alphamale]

Women seem to value men's minds, their turn-ons, whether they seek out women to be turned on by, viewing it as "only for me".

 

Whereas men seem to value the woman's body, the sexual contact or visual nudity plus sexuality, viewing it as "only for me".

so? what's wrong with that? that is what nature and evolution intended...

[PinkKittyKat]

so? what's wrong with that? that is what nature and evolution intended...

 

No no no.... nothing wrong. It was a neutral statement as to WHY many women do not like the hubby going to strip clubs, but why many men are like "Sure honey, go to a strip club...why on earth would that bug me?"

 

Nothing wrong at all.

[SpanksTheMonkey]

men are basically simple creatures - give us food, sex, some TV time and a bit of love and we'll flourish, not unlike an easy to take care of houseplant

 

women, on the other hand...

Those are some WILD house plants were can I get me some??

[Jersey Shortie]

Ok. Yes I've been to a couple of strip clubs, ones where the strippers did approach me. It is not in their power to control what you do. So what you've just posted sounds like a lame excuse to comfort an insecurity. If that's what makes you feel comfortable, fine, but don't shame anyone for going to a strip because they're confident in their faithfulness and are capable of controlling THEMSELVES. How are you afraid of what the strippers will do? Of course they will come up to you and flirt with you and sit in your lap and try to coerse you into ****. Its their job. But you shouldn't let their actions restrict your SO from having fun. That sounds like you don't trust your SO at all. With that state of mind why even let your SO out into public? You cannot control other people's actions. You cannot stop people from approaching your SO, flirting with them, even coming into physical contact with them. Oh what you think because a stripper sits in a guy's lap he's forced to perform unfaithful acts? Please.

 

This is the most inane butch of drivel I ever heard. You talk about shaming but that's exactly what you are attempting to do to this poster. Christ. Cut us women a break. Putting yourself in a sexual situation with other women and THEN asking why she feels insecure about the situation is ridiculous. Why don't you try doing the right thing first and not demanding your girl cater to your whims of fancy because you want a free pass for the night to act like a douche. You want to go to a bar with yoru buddies to blow of steam? Please do. You want to go have fun with naked women who will flirt with you, validate you as a man and have fun with other, don't be ignorant in understanding why this creates anixety. And pulling the "you don't trust your SO" card is really lame. You wan to know why? Because people in a relationship either do things that makes their partner trust them or not. It's not a free pass you get to go off and behave anyway you please under the pretense that it's about trust. Trusting a man and what his acts do are one and the same. Don't demand your SO not feel axienty when you knowingly are putting yourself in a position to be flirted with and have physical contact with other women. That's not about trust. It's about you being selfish , wanting the strip club and wanting to shame your SO into being okay with it because your pleasure in the strip club is more important then her feelings on the issue. You talked earlier about your ex not having any regard for the way you felt. You need to look at yourself and your lack or regard for yoru partner. How would you like if if your girlfriend was sitting on a nother guys lap half naked? Would you be okay with it?

 

 

You can't control other people's action. You can only control your own. And a man can control himself not to go to strip clubs. but going to on and then saying you can't control what the strippers do is so ludicris an argument. Man up and take some responsiblity.

[kdark]

I wouldn't have any problem if my girl was a stripper and sat on another guys lap half naked. As long as I trusted her and she never gave me a reason to not trust her. It's only about the money in places like that.

[pollywag]

It's only about the money in places like that.

 

Yeah and so are the blowjobs and everything else that goes down at strip joints.

[mr.dream merchant]

This is the most inane butch of drivel I ever heard. You talk about shaming but that's exactly what you are attempting to do to this poster. Christ. Cut us women a break. Putting yourself in a sexual situation with other women and THEN asking why she feels insecure about the situation is ridiculous. Why don't you try doing the right thing first and not demanding your girl cater to your whims of fancy because you want a free pass for the night to act like a douche. You want to go to a bar with yoru buddies to blow of steam? Please do. You want to go have fun with naked women who will flirt with you, validate you as a man and have fun with other, don't be ignorant in understanding why this creates anixety. And pulling the "you don't trust your SO" card is really lame. You wan to know why? Because people in a relationship either do things that makes their partner trust them or not. It's not a free pass you get to go off and behave anyway you please under the pretense that it's about trust. Trusting a man and what his acts do are one and the same. Don't demand your SO not feel axienty when you knowingly are putting yourself in a position to be flirted with and have physical contact with other women. That's not about trust. It's about you being selfish , wanting the strip club and wanting to shame your SO into being okay with it because your pleasure in the strip club is more important then her feelings on the issue. You talked earlier about your ex not having any regard for the way you felt. You need to look at yourself and your lack or regard for yoru partner. How would you like if if your girlfriend was sitting on a nother guys lap half naked? Would you be okay with it?

 

 

You can't control other people's action. You can only control your own. And a man can control himself not to go to strip clubs. but going to on and then saying you can't control what the strippers do is so ludicris an argument. Man up and take some responsiblity.

 

Yeah, cause I'm going to let some stripper sit in my lap and fondle my dick when I have a GF. Lmao.

[Jersey Shortie]

That's what you were saying you would do.

 

 

I wouldn't have any problem if my girl was a stripper and sat on another guys lap half naked. As long as I trusted her and she never gave me a reason to not trust her. It's only about the money in places like that.

 

Please, most men would have a cow.

[kdark]

Please, most men would have a cow.

 

Not me. Like I said, it's only about the money. Hell, even if she enjoyed the attention, I still wouldn't mind. Like Dream Merchant said, it's all about trust, and this is something that I would trust her with, as long as she didn't give me a reason not to.

 

And you are right as well, it is also about respecting your partners wishes too, but only if those wishes are reasonable. The strip club thing depends really on the two people involved and how important it is to them. If a guy goes out with his guy friends regularly to a strip club before the girl enters the picture, and nothing ever happens at said strip club, then it is unreasonable IMO.

 

But if the guy brings up going to a strip club randomly after being with a girl a while and she has a problem with it, then I would think he should respect her wishes.

[Jersey Shortie]

I get it but most men would not be cool with it.

 

Both scenes are unresonable.

[kdark]

I get it but most men would not be cool with it.

 

Both scenes are unresonable.

 

Respecting your partners wishes is one thing, but asking someone to change their lifestyle and how they interact with there friends is what is unreasonable.

 

And I might have to agree that most men wouldn't be cool with it either.

[Ruby Slippers]

Maybe there are more female posters than male here? Would be interesting to see those numbers.

 

It wasn't till quite recently that women began to make serious strides forward in functioning equally to men in terms of jobs, income, opportunity, etc., and a good portion of the world is still in the Dark Ages in this domain. Any race/class/gender fight takes decades to reach anything resembling peace and equilibrium. And once the minority/oppressed group begins to get some leverage, it's necessary for them to fight hard to really make the point and keep the leverage going. When you're backed into the corner, sometimes you feel you have to lash out harder. The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

 

All those quotes about all men being rapists -- of course that sounds ridiculous now, but if you consider them in the context of a society in which women are considered property, with no freedom of choice as to who their husband/owner/captor will be, it makes more sense. In some countries, nothing has changed here -- a woman who has sex outside of wedlock can be tortured and killed for it, and it is her duty to have sex with whatever beast her parents sell her to.

 

Women are beginning to outpace men in university education, career achievements and advancement, and a number of other areas, and it seems pretty clear to me that the sex industry is doing its part to minimize the range of contribution of women to the physical and quickly expendable. Keep women occupied with painting, dressing, and surgically modifying themselves to fit men's preferences and they won't have the time or energy to devote to making real progress in the world.

 

The majority, whether it's white people, rich people, men, whatever, always gets lazy and complacent at a certain point, and when the oppressed group rises to overcome the oppression, they bring a firestorm of energy and determination to their cause.

 

Men (white people, those in power, whatever) who are insecure and threatened and doubt their own value and power when compared to the minority group will always fight it. But when a movement like this begins, there's no going back. You can't stop natural social evolution.

 

Ideally for me, as a woman who is confident of her worth and that of other women, and who wants a peaceful and productive existence of equality and true partnership with a good man, the best we can do is work together to make the changes happen smoothly and positively. Men need women and women need men. We might as well respect each other and get along as best we can.