Why do women get mad when men speak honestly

[SoulSearch_CO]

Well, I'd say it's the immature ones that get upset when men speak the truth. I'd rather be told the truth. If I ask a man a question, I'm not trying to trap him. I want the truth! If my butt looks big in that, I want to know so I wear something different. I'm secure enough in myself that I don't break down if somebody has negative criticism for me.

 

What annoys ME, however, is when people on this board generalize about ALL people of the opposite sex. And I've seen it against men AND women, equally. I have defended both men and women when I have seen such an injustice. So how about not making hasty generalizations about all women just because of what you're seeing a handful do? I agree with Cherry - you are hanging out with the wrong people if you truly believe your generalizations.

[lustans]

Just for the record:

 

I have spent a lot of time reading on various forums, including

men's health, women's health, cosmo, eharmony, and, obviously, loveshack.

(Not to mention one or two dozen that have nothing whatsoever to do with

romance/sex/relationships. Internet-addict...)

 

On none of the others, including cosmo and women's health, have I seen remotely

the amount of man-bashing that goes on here.

 

What are the proportions compared to woman-bashing? Well, I know enough about

myself to fear that I could be too unobjective on that point. However, in my

subjective opinion, man-bashing is noticeably more common---and often for much

worse reasons, e.g. calling a man who believes in equality and wants go

dutch during dating a loser, cheap-skate, or similar.

 

I also note that it is typically the worst man-bashers that complain the most

about woman-bashing. I recall a few weeks ago during my last visit, when I read

parts of three or four man-bashing threads (soon giving up and moving on

to the following thread) in a row---only to find the next thread consisting of

a man making some relatively harmless statements, and the very same women going

off in a bout of ``Just what we need---another woman hater.''

 

It might be a good idea for some posters (irrespective of sex!) to read up

on Matthew 7.1, which contains some of the best advice there is:

 

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall

be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest

not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother,

Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own

eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then

shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

(Also some of the advice hardest to follow. I constantly fail myself.)

[alphamale]

Why is it that woman can bash men until there is no tommorow but are so thin skinned when the focus is on them?

dude...women look at the world thru their emotion-tinted glasses so it stands to reason that most of what they say is bull**** and not based in reality.

[SoulSearch_CO]

dude...women look at the world thru their emotion-tinted glasses so it stands to reason that most of what they say is bull**** and not based in reality.

Thanks for not making assumptions about all women based on some that taint the pool.

[Chrome Barracuda]

dude...women look at the world thru their emotion-tinted glasses so it stands to reason that most of what they say is bull**** and not based in reality.

 

Wow LMao!!!

 

But you know some of this statement does have a point, if women lead by their emotions which is true in most cases they are blind to the dangers that logic would warn them about.

 

Some women arent prepared to handle the truth. even though it is right.

[Taramere]

I admire honesty in people, but only if it's combined with introspection. Screaming out your anger and hatred without taking a look inside and figuring out whether the anger's really stemming from one of your own personal fears or issues (rather than being someone else's fault) isn't so much honest as uncontrolled, self indulgent - and, potentially, abusive to others.

 

A man saying he thinks a woman loses her value as she gets older: If that's his opinion, it's his opinion. Books, the media, things she overhears from men as she's growing up - all of these will drum home to a woman that men tend to have the highest level of physical attraction to women in a certain age group. As a woman, how much you perceive that as a "you are losing your value" message depends on how much you accept that your value is defined by men.

 

If you derive your sense of value from various sources (men's perceptions of you being just one of those) then it probably hurts less when a man tells you "sorry, you're past it." Of course it still hurts, and of course most of us prefer to be around men who have sufficient sensitivity to avoid constantly making statements that are hurtful in that way. Just as, I'm sure, most men don't want to be around women who make it clear that they value most highly those male assets that tend to decline with age.

 

I think it probably is very true to say that many women perceive the messages others give them using a combination of instinct and emotion rather than, necessarily, logic. I think a lot of men do as well. When you hear or read a conversation between men about women, there are often all kinds of assumptions being made that seem to tell more of a story about the man's emotions: What kind of man he dreams of being...what kind of women would help him to feel (about himself) the way he wants to feel. What kind of woman would threaten his sense of self or his reputation in other men's eyes.

 

For a woman who's very capable of applying logic, of course it would be irritating when a man who is driven by anger or aggression patronises her with a "women are illogical, emotional etc etc" comment. It's annoying when people claim superiority for themselves through stereotypes (eg about gender, nation, religion) when they personally seem to lack the stereotypical qualities they're lauding as "better". It's annoying because....well, shallow thinking and obtuseness is annoying. It obstructs interesting conversation and the learning process.

 

the women who trash men are the same ones who get offended whenever a man says something they don't like or is venting after getting his heart cut up.

 

Woggle, this isn't a woman thing. It's an human thing. Name me the man on this board who complains the loudest and most frequently about women. That's right....it's you. I'm not saying that as an attack, it's just an observation.

 

You must know yourself that most of what you contribute on this board involves complaining about women. Rejecting pretty much all that is popularly perceived as "feminine". You're bound to encounter more than what might feel like (to you) your fair share of female negativity. Did you look at the "things women like about men" thread, or do you make a point of staying away from any thread like that?

[Woggle]

When you read a story like this. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t176736/ Is it any wonder why many men turn into misogynists? Doesn't this man have every right to be bitter after this? This type of stuff is an epidemic in modern day relationships as well.

[SoulSearch_CO]

When you read a story like this. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t176736/ Is it any wonder why many men turn into misogynists? Doesn't this man have every right to be bitter after this? This type of stuff is an epidemic in modern day relationships as well.

And there are NO bad men out there? Please. I got out of a really terrible marriage last year where I forgave the prick more times than I can count for cheating on me (one of those times with a best friend of mine). He swore up and down to never do it again. Things were never quite the same after that. After numerous times of ignoring me and pushing me aside in favor of other projects in his life, I finally gave up and divorced. It wasn't until AFTER I filed that I found out he had been trying to bed a co-worker of ours and I happened upon several very dirty (and nauseating:sick::sick:) voice messages from him to her. He also admitted to dating a few women behind my back, although denying sex with them. So based on his poor example, AND the example of my ex-bf before him, I should assume that all men are scum and I'm doomed to be cheated on? I would be justified in doing so?

 

I think not. I adore my current BF and trust him. I don't think ALL men are scum (or even remotely close to the majority of them), I just think the bad examples in my life were scum. There's a difference.

[Woggle]

And there are NO bad men out there? Please. I got out of a really terrible marriage last year where I forgave the prick more times than I can count for cheating on me (one of those times with a best friend of mine). He swore up and down to never do it again. Things were never quite the same after that. After numerous times of ignoring me and pushing me aside in favor of other projects in his life, I finally gave up and divorced. It wasn't until AFTER I filed that I found out he had been trying to bed a co-worker of ours and I happened upon several very dirty (and nauseating:sick::sick:) voice messages from him to her. He also admitted to dating a few women behind my back, although denying sex with them. So based on his poor example, AND the example of my ex-bf before him, I should assume that all men are scum and I'm doomed to be cheated on? I would be justified in doing so?

 

I think not. I adore my current BF and trust him. I don't think ALL men are scum (or even remotely close to the majority of them), I just think the bad examples in my life were scum. There's a difference.

 

There are bad men and good women but you can't deny that this stuff is an epidemic these days. Go to the divorce forum and the stories are all the same.

[serial muse]

Just for the record:

 

I have spent a lot of time reading on various forums, including

men's health, women's health, cosmo, eharmony, and, obviously, loveshack.

(Not to mention one or two dozen that have nothing whatsoever to do with

romance/sex/relationships. Internet-addict...)

 

On none of the others, including cosmo and women's health, have I seen remotely

the amount of man-bashing that goes on here.

 

What are the proportions compared to woman-bashing? Well, I know enough about

myself to fear that I could be too unobjective on that point. However, in my

subjective opinion, man-bashing is noticeably more common---and often for much

worse reasons, e.g. calling a man who believes in equality and wants go

dutch during dating a loser, cheap-skate, or similar.

 

I also note that it is typically the worst man-bashers that complain the most

about woman-bashing. I recall a few weeks ago during my last visit, when I read

parts of three or four man-bashing threads (soon giving up and moving on

to the following thread) in a row---only to find the next thread consisting of

a man making some relatively harmless statements, and the very same women going

off in a bout of ``Just what we need---another woman hater.''

 

It might be a good idea for some posters (irrespective of sex!) to read up

on Matthew 7.1, which contains some of the best advice there is:

 

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall

be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest

not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother,

Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own

eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then

shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

(Also some of the advice hardest to follow. I constantly fail myself.)

 

I find this very interesting, lustans. I remember your thread - you started a hypothetical thread purporting to be a woman that had approached a man and was upset when he didn't respond to her. Guess what? Most of the posters - yes the WOMEN - took the MAN's side. They told her that the guy behaved perfectly normally, that she had to get over herself, etc. etc.

 

So it is so bizarre to me that now you're saying that this is a man-bashing board. If you did experience any anger - and I went back and looked to be sure; it was very mild, such as it was - it basically focused on how people were annoyed at being duped by a possibly "gotcha" thread.

 

How, oh how, is that man-bashing? Somebody please explain the "logic" of all this.

 

Really. Feel free to post the offending threads for everyone's edification. I'm talking about the "men suck because..." threads. Let's see 'em. (Woggle's threads about women cheating on their husbands do not count, because it would be a piece of cake to simply respond by posting threads about men cheating on their wives. Or, conversely, to just head on over to the OM/OW forums, which are dominated by OW. I mean, come on. No one's really going to say that women cheating is an epidemic while ignoring the ample evidence that men are equally guilty are they? At least if they are, let's hope they don't call it "logic.")

 

What I think is rampant on these boards lately is this devolution into blaming an entire gender for one person's bitterness. And yes, I think it originates on these boards largely from a few pompous men, who tend to start threads about "why women are this" and so forth. I've been on LS for about 6-7 years now, and when I first arrived it felt much more like a place about INDIVIDUAL problems with relationships. Sure, there's always going to be gender stereotyping, which will persist for as long as people get their hearts broken. But nowadays we are constantly treated to pseudo-theories and pseudo-science and made-up statistics in a stunning display of illogical thinking by people who then turn around and make the fantastical claim that their gender is obviously more gifted with logic. You have got to be kidding me. If I've learned anything from these boards, it's that illogical thinking is NOT the exclusive province of one gender. I've seen some real winners from both sides. So just give us a break with that BS already.

 

I'm not saying that one gender is better than the other. I happen to think some men are awesome and some women suck. And vice versa.

 

But I am saying this - you guys aren't doing your cause any favors.

 

I just wish people wouldn't constantly try to pretend they have all the answers, and that they know what people they've never met are thinking, and would just stick to their own feelings and thoughts, which are the only things about which they can speak with any real authority. Plus, if people were to focus on the things they can fix - themselves - they might find that they're actually able to get past some of their issues.

[donnamaybe]

Woggle, you don't come on LS and talk about an incident that happened to you, with the exception of your ex wife, and everyone, women included, agree you're better off without her and she was completely to blame for the problems between you. What YOU do is come on here and say, "women are this" and "women are that," lumping ALL OF US into the same group as your ex-wife, viewing us all through your sh-t colored glasses.

 

It gets extremely old, man.

[Woggle]

Woggle, you don't come on LS and talk about an incident that happened to you, with the exception of your ex wife, and everyone, women included, agree you're better off without her and she was completely to blame for the problems between you. What YOU do is come on here and say, "women are this" and "women are that," lumping ALL OF US into the same group as your ex-wife, viewing us all through your sh-t colored glasses.

 

It gets extremely old, man.

 

I have said many times that if you are female and what I say does not apply to you don't take it as an insult. I have no issue with you if you are not like this.

[donnamaybe]

I have said many times that if you are female and what I say does not apply to you don't take it as an insult. I have no issue with you if you are not like this.

 

Then could you please refine your statements to say "some women" instead of just "women," because that implies ALL of us!

[MindoverMatter]

I have said many times that if you are female and what I say does not apply to you don't take it as an insult. I have no issue with you if you are not like this.

 

Most black people are stupid, but if you are black and not stupid, then don't take it as an insult.

 

Sounds wrong now?

 

And this is not my point of view, just to make that clear.

[blind_otter]

Why is it that woman can bash men until there is no tommorow but are so thin skinned when the focus is on them?

 

Well my dear old Dad often said, there are a million ways to say one thing - one way might make a man respect you, another way might make a man want to kill you. That's the value of diplomacy. If you really want to communicate something to someone, do it in a way that won't piss them off and they might actually hear what you're trying to say.

[serial muse]

I have said many times that if you are female and what I say does not apply to you don't take it as an insult. I have no issue with you if you are not like this.

 

Woggle, you have said that many times. But the truth is, it's nonsense. I'll just list two reasons why:

 

1. When you say this stuff, you always say "most" women. But as you, I and anyone who reads your comments regularly knows, you weight your arguments in favor of your biases, because you tend to focus on the threads that rile you up - the ones where the women suck. Therefore, you have no "evidence" of anything, except that you like to read the threads in which women suck, and you like to be angry at them. That's all we can really say for sure. Furthermore, you don't know "most" women - your mom and your ex-wife sucked, you have a chip on your shoulder the size of New Jersey, and you're now paying it forward in a consistently angry, counterproductive, destructive way. Well done.

 

The truth is, I feel for the shxt you went through and I hope you make it. But that doesn't mean I have to take your shxt in return, nor does anyone else. And the fact that you continue to dish it out suggests that you're not yet aware of the intrinsic hypocrisy, and that's not a good thing.

 

And 2. Nobody who comes on here and distances himself from his woman-bashing statements by saying "if it doesn't apply to you, don't take it personally" then has the right to turn around and say that the boards are man-bashing. See what I'm saying? If it doesn't apply to you etc.? At least be consistent.

 

It's all just nonsense wrapped up in anger and tied with a bitter bow. Enough already.

 

Edited to add: You know, I really, really do feel for the people - men and women alike - who have been mistreated by their partners and are dealing with anger, hurt, bitterness, self-loathing, etc. I want people to learn something about each other and themselves. I want them to get better. But all of this "men are just being honest about women and if you disagree you're a feminazi" stuff is so DESTRUCTIVE because a) it's hateful and spiteful; and b)it's untrue, and no amount of vehemence is going to make an angry stereotype true. It just isn't.

 

I just don't see how anybody can possibly think this stuff HELPS. Isn't the point that we're ultimately interested in having positive, loving relationships with each other, not in tearing each other down?

 

Seriously, what is the POINT???

[Taramere]

I find this very interesting, lustans. I remember your thread - you started a hypothetical thread purporting to be a woman that had approached a man and was upset when he didn't respond to her. Guess what? Most of the posters - yes the WOMEN - took the MAN's side. They told her that the guy behaved perfectly normally, that she had to get over herself, etc. etc.

 

I remember that thread too! Posing as a female, he titled it why are men such jerks?. Even when he later admitted that he was actually a man, posters still came on to berate "her" for that typical female sense of entitlement. Several posters reminded others throughout the thread that it was started by a guy pretending to be a woman....but still, the rebukes and "now you know what it's like to be a guy" comments continued.

 

Perhaps inside Woggle, a screeching, irrational, disempowered misandrist is bursting to get out and spill bile. An aggressive extreme of the heterosexual man who, every so often, likes to dress up in high heels and pretty underwear just to see what it feels like. Who looks nothing like an actual woman, but derives something fun and therapeutic from the dressing up games nonetheless. Going back to that stage of childhood where the boy has not yet formed an identity separate to the mother figure.

 

Perhaps the only way lustans felt able to express the more stereotypically feminine aspects of himself involved opening a thread where he posed as an insecure woman. Perhaps some of the guys here would enjoy more opportunities to express certain things inside them that they feel unable to admit to as a man. Should I open an experimental thread where any men so inclined can pose as women and entertain us with these ranting caricatures of femininity that lurk within their psyches? Or would it just lead to further chaos, conflict and misery?

[Trialbyfire]

This is why I want these guys to embrace their inner princess. It's obviously a sense of entitlement that makes them believe they should be treated better than women!

[Taramere]

This is why I want these guys to embrace their inner princess.

 

As an incentive, here's a clip to show men that embracing your inner princess is therapeutic and fun.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUyXW3wJ3FU

 

Woggle, aren't you the dark horse? I didn't know you wore glasses and spoke German.

[clv0116]

When you express your opinion about over 30 women ...

 

Men don't tend to marry women much older than themselves (statistical fact) and most people are married before age 35, also fact. Put those together and "A 35 year old woman is a tough sell to a single man who wants marriage and kids". People who have a few divorces under their belts or who have fewer options are less picky.

 

Care to try again?

[CommitmentPhobe]

Men don't tend to marry women much older than themselves (statistical fact) and most people are married before age 35, also fact. Put those together and "A 35 year old woman is a tough sell to a single man who wants marriage and kids". People who have a few divorces under their belts or who have fewer options are less picky.

 

Care to try again?

 

No, if you insist on adding 2 and 2 together and making 5 who am I to try and dissuade you?

[clv0116]

No, ....

 

If you 'think' (term used loosely) that a rapidly diminishing pool of single men of the age that is statistically likely to marry a woman age 35 or above does not constitute a tough sell, well I probably can't help you.

 

Most men over 35 who are not confirmed bachelors have already been married. Most women 35 or over who get married will be married by men older than they are. Thus, not many women over 35 will be married by single men. That is practically the definition of a tough sell.

[vanilla87]

There is some misogyny on this board but if you ask me it is nothing compared to the bile that women on this board and in general spew against men. Get a group of women together and they will spew the worst hate against the men in their lives but let a man on here vent about the drama he is going through and you have a bunch of women ready to jump down his throat.

 

Well depends on the type of women and their age groups your referring to anyway. Women my age, the bracket of 21 - 25 are a mix of being spiteful and bitchy about a few things when it comes to men. We're not all here to bash and make your lives a living hell but if you say something that sounds out of line we'll tell you asap before you can continue so you can correct yourself before you make another mistake, which is what we don't need on here.

 

This board is supposed to be therapy but yet men are still supposed to bite our tongue.

 

Really!? A man that bites his tongue in a coversation of any kind!? holy crap! I'd like to meet one!

 

Just look at the divorce forum on this board and you see how many good men get utterly screwed when they do nothing but love the women in their life so are these men not supposed to be bitter?

 

Yeah thats the divorced section, what do you expect? rainbows and butterflies with pretty kittens tied in yellow and blue bows??? I'm sorry for that but seriously, people get mean and point fingers when it comes to divorce. Its a "he said, she said" area where basically you can't win an argument unless your an actual lawyer on that section.

 

Don't they have the right to vent. Isn't it understandable if a man who has seen this crap over and over again wonders if it is even worth it trying to build a relationship with a woman?

 

It is, with the right one. I think when you look at it, if a guy keeps on getting involved with women that cause his this kind of stress, maybe he needs to chance his ideals and desires about certain women and look at a few different types that are willing to offer what he wants and vice versa to any of the ladies that are reading this. All jerks and a**holes are the same birds of a feather. You just have to know after experience what signs to look for and what to avoid so you don't wind up with a jerk.

 

Why is it that woman can bash men until there is no tommorow but are so thin skinned when the focus is on them?

 

Because were emotional people and when the tables are turned on us, we get very defensive and wish to not have any focus, because when we vent we don't want you to say one freakin' word in return unless your a female with a good point of reference to make about the situation. If we want a guys a opinion 7 times out of 10 we will actually say it, the other 3 times we will hint at it hoping you will pick up on our subtle words of what we need from you.

 

We know you can't read minds, but when you pay attention enough, you will end up reading out minds to know what we need to hear or have you say to us.

 

Also we don't do well with criticism, we do well with constructive criticism that has a happy ending, not one that is to harmful and truthful, even when we ask for the truth, don't bring it on too heavy, we will hate you for that. Just give us the truth like you would your own mother or favorite aunt or grandmother, in other words, be nice to use when you talk to us, unless we're being uber b***hy, then by all mans call us out on it, other then that STFU,

[serial muse]

Men don't tend to marry women much older than themselves (statistical fact) and most people are married before age 35, also fact. Put those together and "A 35 year old woman is a tough sell to a single man who wants marriage and kids". People who have a few divorces under their belts or who have fewer options are less picky.

 

Care to try again?

 

Whee, I'll bite.

 

There's a bit of a flaw of logic there. You seem to be suggesting a kind of syllogism: If men marry younger women, and most people are married by age 35, then fewer 35 year old women will get married.

 

Except that if one goes by your reasoning as outlined above, fewer 35 year old men will get married, too. Because, after all - "most people are married before age 35." So, um...what did you think you were trying to prove, again? Your syllogism appears to be missing a key premise.

 

Anyway, it's all goofiness, because the average age of first marriages is rising rapidly, as I'm sure you are already aware. Gasp and whatnot. Oh, and yep, we're talking about first marriages. Some people do get divorced and then remarry.

 

And some divorced men may be less squeamish about marrying divorced women than certain never-married men (who are, themselves, already standing in contrast to their own oft-quoted statistics, since they've never been married and are over 35, etc.).

 

Edited to add: I see that you restated your beliefs above, including acknowledging that there are fewer single men over 35. But you still don't seem to understand why that makes your logical premise not work. Oh well.

[sally4sara]

There is some misogyny on this board but if you ask me it is nothing compared to the bile that women on this board and in general spew against men. Get a group of women together and they will spew the worst hate against the men in their lives but let a man on here vent about the drama he is going through and you have a bunch of women ready to jump down his throat. This board is supposed to be therapy but yet men are still supposed to bite our tongue. Just look at the divorce forum on this board and you see how many good men get utterly screwed when they do nothing but love the women in their life so are these men not supposed to be bitter? Don't they have the right to vent. Isn't it understandable if a man who has seen this crap over and over again wonders if it is even worth it trying to build a relationship with a woman? Why is it that woman can bash men until there is no tommorow but are so thin skinned when the focus is on them?

 

I don't remember any threads where a man talks about the suffering he is going through with his divorce, and women on here laugh and torment him over it. I know it can be hard to read some of the stories and still keep in mind that it is just one side of one story and we are only seeing a small part of it. Try keeping that perspective when reading things on here. Treat it like Jury duty instead of mirroring YOUR story against it. All you doing with your mirroring, is make yourself re-live your own misery over and over again.

Why do women get upset with honesty out of men? It varies I imagine. Me personally....I've never gotten upset at anyone who answers honestly to something I asked. I wonder if men sometimes confuse unsolicited opinion with honesty. Like say I've had a seriously twisted day and I'm riding the train home. Some jerk leans over to me and offers this little bit of advise and wisdom:

"you should smile more. then it won't seem so bad."

Does he know me? Did I ask? If I were another male passenger, would he even give two hoots as to the expression on my face? Why does he think a simple smile will solve whatever I'm going though? What if I just got fired and I have a sick child that needs the insurance I was carrying?

Its effing patronizing. He would probably think he is being honest and friendly and cannot see why this might piss me off.

 

As to why women have gripes about men in general? Maybe it is because women live in a world where there is still tolerance for women being raped, tortured, mutilated, and seen as less than human.

Imagine this:

A black man living "free" in the north, post Civil War, but has many distant relatives living oppressed in the south. He meets a nice white woman who treats him better than any white person he has ever met. She lets him know she finds him attractive and thinks he is well suited for her. She wishes to be his wife after a few months around him.

Would it surprise ANYONE if this man struggled with internal conflict over this decision? On one hand he might enjoy her company and think himself lucky. But it might still feel like a betrayal to the relatives still enduring hell in the south. How can one truly BE content, knowing they paired up with the "enemy"? Sure sure, he can tell himself that SHE isn't like the others (so far as he can tell), but what does it say about his efforts to try and make a change for other black people everywhere? Its not like she is so different from the rest that she is trying to do something to stop the hate of other white people from harming more black people. Why think so much more of her for simply not hating HIM?

 

I bolded the most "on topic" parts of my post for Tony's convenience. I know how he hates it when I discuss the very real acts of hate against women that still exist in this world.