Why do women get mad when men speak honestly

[grogster]

Grogster, as usual you are a bright, shining beacon of hope for broad minded thinkers of BOTH genders.

 

Thanks!!

 

You're most welcome. I'm blushing.

 

Well, back to work.

[The Collector]

Yeah, yeah, I get that there are men who feel that they're getting shat on out there. And then they come here and turn it around on others. Mmmkay.

 

Call it Positive Gender Role Re-evaluation, if it makes you feel better. But all it really is is turning around and saying nasty crap to people who didn't actually do anything to you. If you think that's evening the score, then whatevs.

 

It's not simply about redirecting non-specific crap though, or mindless score settling. Much of what men have heard from women from the early days of 'women's lib' to modern day feminism has merit, and caused a generational change in male attitudes and behaviour. It wasn't crap. Likewise, some of the complaints or discussion topics raised by men cannot simply be dismissed as bitter rants with no basis in reality. As ironically, women's POV were ignored in the past.

 

Take this topic. Do men and women react differently to bluntness? Do women often want things sugar-coated and men prefer it raw? Is one way 'better' than the other? Do women use shaming tactics and 'you can't generalise, it's not a gender thing' to avoid any criticism? Are men a bit sucky at communicating without upsetting the opposite sex? All valid questions, none of which are answered by telling Woggle to shut up and not have issues with women, or that he's projecting all of his opinions from two flawed females and the rest of you are perfect. Neither sex is perfect, we all (mostly) have some gender related faults, and why not discuss them here?

[alphamale]

Class based bashing --whether based on race, color, releigion, gender, nationality--says more about the basher's insecurities and obsessions than it does the class under attack.

am i insecure if i say most women are more emotional than most men?

[serial muse]

It's not simply about redirecting non-specific crap though, or mindless score settling. Much of what men have heard from women from the early days of 'women's lib' to modern day feminism has merit, and caused a generational change in male attitudes and behaviour. It wasn't crap. Likewise, some of the complaints or discussion topics raised by men cannot simply be dismissed as bitter rants with no basis in reality. As ironically, women's POV were ignored in the past.

 

Take this topic. Do men and women react differently to bluntness? Do women often want things sugar-coated and men prefer it raw? Is one way 'better' than the other? Do women use shaming tactics and 'you can't generalise, it's not a gender thing' to avoid any criticism? Are men a bit sucky at communicating without upsetting the opposite sex? All valid questions, none of which are answered by telling Woggle to shut up and not have issues with women, or that he's projecting all of his opinions from two flawed females and the rest of you are perfect. Neither sex is perfect, we all (mostly) have some gender related faults, and why not discuss them here?

 

I think grogster said it well - there's a big difference between being honest about one's feelings, and saying "all women are..."

 

Nope, I don't have any sympathy for anyone who goes about making nonsense generalizations, because it's just transparently bitterness. As soon as you do it - bam, your credibility is shot. So why do it? How is that an opener for any kind of discussion? How are you allowing for a difference of opinion, if you're saying that anyone who disagrees is a militant x, y or z?

 

Look, I don't know what you or other men may be encountering out there in the big wide world, but I do know that on these boards, most of the generalizing threads are coming from men. The same few men, granted, but men nonetheless. I've been hurt by people, too. But I don't start this crap. Very few of the women on these boards start this crap. They just don't. I'm not saying women in general are better than men. But I am saying two things:

 

1. They're not worse.

2. They're not starting "all men are..." threads ad nauseum on these boards.

 

If what we want is to have honest discussions about gender differences, there's no problem with that. But honest, thoughtful discussions aren't being proposed here. Woggle says things like "most women will screw you given half the chance" and then wants to know what the heck the problem is because he's just being "honest".

 

Yeah. That's pretty much transparent. This thread isn't really about bluntness. It's about making nonsense generalizations and then wondering why a certain gender can't just "take" it. A lot of women on these boards are pretty raw right now with the multiple threads about how they suck. This is honesty? Please.

[The Collector]

You're kidding, right Collector? I mean about Woggle. Just look at the opening post in this thread! When he says things like, "Get a group of women together and they will spew the worst hate against the men in their lives ..." you don't think he is TRYING to piss women off? I mean, seriously, do YOU really think that women get together and HATE on men to the degree that he hates on women? He says BS like, "...the bile that women on this board and in general spew against men," and I just want to spew MY bile right in his face! LITERALLY!

 

I just re-read his opening post. He is complaining of hypocrisy. That women feel free to denigrate men without guilt, and often do (do all women do this all the time. No. But like I said, picking him up on generalizing or exaggerating is nit-picking). Meanwhile, men, both here and in RL, are shamed if they say anything negative about women. That's certainly been my experience (not that I go round doing it much you understand - generally only when confronted with misandry and double-standards).

 

Woggle says women get mad if they are criticized. Well this thread proves that. Do men, to the same extent? No, I think we are used to it, and conditioned to agree and say 'Yeah I know we are crap, sorry.' Not me, but I see it. As a woman, you may not notice so much.

 

You took the worst line from Woggles post. Here it is in full again.

 

There is some misogyny on this board but if you ask me it is nothing compared to the bile that women on this board and in general spew against men. Get a group of women together and they will spew the worst hate against the men in their lives but let a man on here vent about the drama he is going through and you have a bunch of women ready to jump down his throat. This board is supposed to be therapy but yet men are still supposed to bite our tongue. Just look at the divorce forum on this board and you see how many good men get utterly screwed when they do nothing but love the women in their life so are these men not supposed to be bitter? Don't they have the right to vent. Isn't it understandable if a man who has seen this crap over and over again wonders if it is even worth it trying to build a relationship with a woman? Why is it that woman can bash men until there is no tommorow but are so thin skinned when the focus is on them?

Is that really a bile-filled attack on women? Or a plea that men' complaints can be heard as women's are? As a woman, you probably don't realise how in todays society it is open season on men, and women enjoy the privilige of rarely being criticized. If you watch any womens show on TV, there is casual misandry all the time. Soaps and ads portray men as idiots. And most discussion on relationships is often premised on the idea that the man must have done something wrong.

 

On this forum, look at the contrast between the 'what do you first notice when you see the opposite sex naked' threads. Female perspectives, that they might notice flaws or have preferences, are not angrily refuted by he men. Yet the counter thread is full of women shaming the men. A microcosm of Woggle perceives as double-standards and women not being able to take it like they dish it out.

 

This site (now more than ever it seems) has its fair share of male posters unafraid to defend their gender, or criticise womens behavior. And there are definitely a few posters who start threads that are designed to provoke the womenfolk. Even Woggle admits as much in his opening sentence. But his point remains - women can and do criticize men. It's fantasy to pretend they don't. So why can't men do likewise?

[Jersey Shortie]

Take this topic. Do men and women react differently to bluntness? Do women often want things sugar-coated and men prefer it raw? Is one way 'better' than the other?

 

 

Does it have to be one way or the other? There is a middle ground. Is "raw" another term for "brutal". Being brutal or "raw" might not really be about telling the truth at all. But telling the truth and making it extra sharp for your own benefit or tinted world view.

 

 

Do women use shaming tactics and 'you can't generalise, it's not a gender thing' to avoid any criticism? Are men a bit sucky at communicating without upsetting the opposite sex? All valid questions, none of which are answered by telling Woggle to shut up and not have issues with women, or that he's projecting all of his opinions from two flawed females and the rest of you are perfect. Neither sex is perfect, we all (mostly) have some gender related faults, and why not discuss them here?

 

 

Discussing them is one thing but gender biased put downs are another. Even in your reference, you brought up women using shaming tactics. The worst offense you brought up about men was not being great communicators. Come on. You're basically saying women are these manipulators and men are just bad communicators. Talk about who is being manipulative. Even in your previous post you pointed out issues you have with women but dind't mention anything about where men go wrong.

[Jersey Shortie]

I love when the tell women how bitter they become yet fail to see their own bitterness.

[clv0116]

Oh oh, does that mean we are all past our prime???

 

I think I was probably at my physical peak around mid 20s overall. We just have to do the best we can with what we have to work with, but a big part of that is being realistic and understanding our limits.

[The Collector]

Please point to some threads that were started FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF SAYING THAT MEN ALWAYS GET TOGETHER AND SPEW THEIR HATEFUL BILE AGAINST WOMEN.

 

But that's not it's sole purpose is it? That's the bit that makes you upset, but his point is that men aren't allowed to criticize women as they do men.

 

Specific anti-male threads. I just tried to research that, but you can't do a search for threads with 'men' in the title because men is too short a word. But I'll grant you I've seen more pointedly 'anti-women' threads than anti-man ones here, especially lately, and mainly from the same few posters. But again, Woggle is not confining his point to these boards, it's a societal thing that men are regularly vilified, and with sweeping generalizations to boot, from 'Men make too much fuss when they are ill' to 'Men are dogs who sleep around' to 'There aren't any REAL men left.'

 

Ok, you and your friends may not do it. But most men will tell you they hear it all the time in one way or another. And mostly it doesn't bother us, have a vent, or maybe you have apoint and we will listen. But when the shoe is on the other foot I see a lot of women (not all of course) put up their defences and say 'No no no, you're a bitter misogynist, not listening.'

 

And I think that's Woggle's point, not that women are evil witches.

[clv0116]

Do men and women react differently to bluntness?

 

In general yes, although some artsy types seem to be pretty 'sensitive'.

 

 

Do women often want things sugar-coated and men prefer it raw?

 

In general I would say yes.

 

 

Is one way 'better' than the other?

 

I think the straight dope is way easier to deal with but I'm a guy, so I'm apparently biased.

 

 

Do women use shaming tactics and 'you can't generalise, it's not a gender thing' to avoid any criticism?

 

It's the major stock in trade of any sort of disagreement.

 

 

Are men a bit sucky at communicating without upsetting the opposite sex?

 

Guilty. "What else does the box say Steve?"

 

 

All valid questions, none of which are answered by telling Woggle to shut up and not have issues with women, or that he's projecting all of his opinions from two flawed females and the rest of you are perfect. Neither sex is perfect, we all (mostly) have some gender related faults, and why not discuss them here?

 

Hmmm, what a novel concept.

[serial muse]

Ok, you and your friends may not do it. But most men will tell you they hear it all the time in one way or another. And mostly it doesn't bother us, have a vent, or maybe you have apoint and we will listen. But when the shoe is on the other foot I see a lot of women (not all of course) put up their defences and say 'No no no, you're a bitter misogynist, not listening.'

 

And I think that's Woggle's point, not that women are evil witches.

 

Actually, he has repeatedly said both things. Yes, he does think that "most" women are evil witches. No bones about it. Which is why I don't take threads like this one seriously. He's made his baseline position crystal clear => no credibility on the "honesty" front.

 

And - perhaps some men will say they hear it all the time in one way or another. I'm sure some women will say the same, as far as being bashed. Men probably are less sensitive to the crap that women hear, and vice versa.

 

Victim mentality isn't any more appealing if it's coming from someone with a penis.

[Trialbyfire]

Of course most people are civil on the surface but the bitterness between the sexes right now is so thick you can cut it with a knife. We have to work together so we adapt but look at how hard a time men and women are having living together today. The comments you hear online are how people feel in the real world but the anonymity of the internet allows people to express these views they are afraid to express in person.

Not everyone has problems expressing their views in real life, Woggle. Perhaps that's the main thrust of your issues, that you've turned real life into fantasy by hiding behind a man that doesn't exist, whereby the Internet is a mechanism for being real. That's frightening because one day the real man is going to burst into real life, full of angry hatred, vile and bile.

[Trialbyfire]

Why do women get mad when men speak honestly?

 

Most female Shackers don't. Honesty has never been the issue. Rather, it's the overbroad stigmatic generalizations about all women that piss people off --of both genders. Any Thread that begins "All women are..." I stop reading for content but continue reading for fireworks.

 

Most bright Shacker women, in contrast, focus on particular men in legitimate, concrete advice contexts. They don't paint with as broad a brush as the guys who post to provoke. As a result, there's usually more nuance, subtlety and refinement in the posts of intelligent female Shackers than their angry laddy boy counterparts. These women will indict particular men, not the entire male gender. While the angry laddy boys will label all women based on the sins of a few.

 

Class based bashing --whether based on race, color, releigion, gender, nationality--says more about the basher's insecurities and obsessions than it does the class under attack.

Thank-you grogster. It's nice to see sane men posting their opinions.

[GorillaTheater]

But that's not it's sole purpose is it? That's the bit that makes you upset, but his point is that men aren't allowed to criticize women as they do men.

 

Specific anti-male threads. I just tried to research that, but you can't do a search for threads with 'men' in the title because men is too short a word. But I'll grant you I've seen more pointedly 'anti-women' threads than anti-man ones here, especially lately, and mainly from the same few posters. But again, Woggle is not confining his point to these boards, it's a societal thing that men are regularly vilified, and with sweeping generalizations to boot, from 'Men make too much fuss when they are ill' to 'Men are dogs who sleep around' to 'There aren't any REAL men left.'

 

Ok, you and your friends may not do it. But most men will tell you they hear it all the time in one way or another. And mostly it doesn't bother us, have a vent, or maybe you have apoint and we will listen. But when the shoe is on the other foot I see a lot of women (not all of course) put up their defences and say 'No no no, you're a bitter misogynist, not listening.'

 

And I think that's Woggle's point, not that women are evil witches.

 

I don't know much about Woggle's motivations, but your other points are well-made and an excellent attempt to engage the female posters.

 

An attempt that nonetheless appears to be largely futile.

 

Which is why I generally make a point of avoiding threads like this.

[serial muse]

Was going to add - if somebody wanted to talk in an even-handed way about how both men and women can be insensitive to the societal messages the other gender is constantly bombarded with - well, that is certainly a worthy topic of discussion. It'd be nice if it weren't all "women have been bashing back at men for the last 30 years and now it's payback time" though. And if somebody - okay, a guy - were to start such a thread WITHOUT talking about how "most women do xxx" I would breathe a big sigh of relief. An intelligent, thoughtful discussion that actually was willing to treat both sides as equals? Geez.

 

I'll be honest, from what I've read on these boards, the people who are the most bitter and start the most threads are exactly the ones who don't much like getting called on their crap. I'm not just talking about men. But men are definitely in that category too. It's just a fantasy to pretend that it's only women who aren't willing to point the finger at themselves.

[clv0116]

Class based bashing --whether based on race, color, releigion, gender, nationality--says more about the basher's insecurities and obsessions than it does the class under attack.

 

Fair enough, my question is why, when someone asks for my reasons in preferring young women, is my answer that partly it's due to fertility concerns 'bashing'? There are physical facts of life involved here and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

[serial muse]

Fair enough, my question is why, when asks for my reasons in preferring young women, is my answer that partly it's due to fertility concerns 'bashing'? There are physical facts of life involved here and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

 

No one's bashing you for having a personal preference. It's when that preference mutates into a proclamation of truth that all must acknowledge or they're kidding themselves that it becomes silly.

[clv0116]

No one's bashing you for having a personal preference. It's when that preference mutates into a proclamation of truth that all must acknowledge or they're kidding themselves that it becomes silly.

 

Let's do a worked example.

 

 

 

 

"Women over 35 are vastly more likely to conceive a Downs syndrome child than women in their early 20s."

 

That is the truth and people who deny that are kidding themselves.

 

 

 

Show me where I went wrong.

[Jersey Shortie]

Fair enough, my question is why, when someone asks for my reasons in preferring young women, is my answer that partly it's due to fertility concerns 'bashing'? There are physical facts of life involved here and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

 

There are physical facts of life you ignore concerning men. You want to date younger women, do it. but don't tell other women what they do or don't deserve or that 40 something women should give up while you seek out what you want from life. That's not being realistic. That's being rather demeaning.

[serial muse]

Let's do a worked example.

 

 

 

 

"Women over 35 are vastly more likely to conceive a Downs syndrome child than women in their early 20s."

 

That is the truth and people who deny that are kidding themselves.

 

 

 

Show me where I went wrong.

 

That's actually not what I'm talking about at all.

 

Where you often go wrong is that you make many statements about how you feel about dating an older woman, and then explain to LS readers that that is how most men feel about dating older women. See the problem here?

 

You don't get to speak for everybody, only yourself.

[alphamale]

"Women over 35 are vastly more likely to conceive a Downs syndrome child than women in their early 20s."

 

That is the truth and people who deny that are kidding themselves.

Lets try another one:

 

"Women who are 40+ and childless and desparately want kids are much more likely to 'settle' when choosing a husband"

[clv0116]

There are physical facts of life you ignore concerning men.

 

I ignore nothing of the sort, but I attempt to control only what can be changed.

[serial muse]

Lets try another one:

 

"Women who are 40+ and childless and desparately want kids are much more likely to 'settle' when choosing a husband"

 

Sigh.

 

See above.

 

Gentlemen. Understand:

 

1. Nobody's bashing anybody for feeling what they feel or wanting what they want.

2. Why is it so necessary, however, to insist that your personal feelings are those of the rest of the world?

[donnamaybe]

Lets try another one:

 

"Women who are 40+ and childless and desparately want kids are much more likely to 'settle' when choosing a husband"

 

SOME women may "settle," while others may not.

[clv0116]

Lets try another one:

 

"Women who are 40+ and childless and desparately want kids are much more likely to 'settle' when choosing a husband"

 

That doesn't sound like me, but I'd be open to seeing a link where I said that. Sometimes I get carried away.