Why do women get mad when men speak honestly

[Taramere]

That is because I am consistent. These are heartfelt beliefs and not some new thing I just thought of to sound cool.

 

Never mind all that. Where are my freedom fries?

 

Hello Grogster.

[The Collector]

http://abstrusegoose.com/99

[Taramere]

http://abstrusegoose.com/99

 

Haha. At least it's a nicely balanced and fair website:

 

http://abstrusegoose.com/106

[Woggle]

Haha. At least it's a nicely balanced and fair website:

 

http://abstrusegoose.com/106

 

If it's balanced I have no issue but some women can dish but can't take it.

[Woggle]

Tara, you are the master of the velvet insult, the gentle jab. A poison charm, no doubt, of your feminine wiles.

 

Oh good lord. Laying it on a bit thick aren't we?

[grogster]

Never mind all that. Where are my freedom fries?

 

Hello Grogster.

 

Hello Taramare.

 

As a card (or is that purse) carrying feminist, have you renewed your membership in S.C.U.M.?

 

I hear it's all the rage.

[Taramere]

Hello Taramare.

 

As a card (or is that purse) carrying feminist, have you renewed your membership in S.C.U.M.?

 

Once the blacksmith's finished hammering my shoes on, I'll try to get around to it. Boom boom.

[grogster]

Once the blacksmith's finished hammering my shoes on, I'll try to get around to it. Boom boom.

 

 

I'm post-literate, Tara. Correct spelling is so last century.

[The Collector]

Solanas was a loon, and most good feminists distance themselves from her - although there are pockets of man-haters that still defend her. More importantly, much of modern feminism does treat men as the enemy, and is not afraid to generalise about us either.

 

 

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."

Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

 

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."

Catherine MacKinnon (leading US feminist)

 

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign."

Marilyn French

 

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."

Germaine Greer.

 

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."

Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

 

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."

Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan.

 

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to ****/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'

Judith Levine

 

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."

Andrea Dworkin; from her book Ice and Fire .

 

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.

 

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

Catharine MacKinnon

 

"(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear".

Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will p.6.

 

"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used."

Andrea Dworkin

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."

Jilly Cooper (not really a feminist but so what)

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat.

Andrea Dworkin

 

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."

Susan Griffin

 

Do they mean me? Apparently.

[Porn_Guy]

men are basically simple creatures - give us food, sex, some TV time and a bit of love and we'll flourish, not unlike an easy to take care of houseplant

 

women, on the other hand...

[Woggle]

I wonder what our resident feminists have to say about those quotes. I have never said anything that hateful against women.

[Porn_Guy]

I wonder what our resident feminists have to say about those quotes.

i could take a good guess at what they would opine

[Taramere]

I wonder what our resident feminists have to say about those quotes. I have never said anything that hateful against women.

 

I'll leave the Jilly Cooper quote aside. She's not a feminist....just an elderly clown who lives in Gloucestershire and writes saucy novels about the aristocracy and its human, canine and equine hangers-on. Sorry if you're reading, Jilly. I used to love your novels when I was in my teens. I think the series including "Octavia" "Emily" and "Harriet" was my favourite.

 

The others....well, they are evidently people who let themselves be consumed by an ideology to the point where they lost proportion, their sense of humour and most of all, the notion that feminism could actually be something positive. Positive if you focus on fairness rather than men versus women.

 

As a woman, it's pretty much impossible to avoid taking a stance on feminism. Practically the moment I entered my teens, I'd find that every conversation I had with an older, Daily Mail or Telegraph consuming man at some point ventured into the area of "what do you young 'uns think of all this women's lib nonsense then, eh? You're not going to be one of these bra-burners, are you?"

 

And of course there are times when it doesn't feel very great to be a female. For all sorts of reasons, you're faced with the ideology of feminism. Do you accept it or reject it? If you're rejecting it, is that a slap in the face to women who struggled and made sacrifices for future generations of women to enjoy more freedom? I think it is....so on that basis I can't reject it.

 

Do I agree with militant factions who express man-hating comments? No I don't. I think those comments stem from a loss of perspective, and/or negative experiences those women have had personally which they've projected onto the male gender, rather than accepting "I had some bad experiences. If I'm to become a better, happier person I need to manage my feelings about them and avoid the temptation to project them onto other people who are in no way responsible for them."

 

As do you, Woggle.

[grogster]

Andrea Dworkin represents heterosexual feminisim as well as Hugh Hefner represents heterosexual manhood. Both are extremes: Dworkin in her anti-male rhetoric; Hefner with his pajamas and viagra.

 

Debating trick 101: tar your reasonable opponent with extreme/crazy positions take by others in order to undercut and marginalize her position.

 

It's a "straw woman" debate ploy.

 

The truth is much less sexy: Shack women represent mainstream, middle class feminism. They're not sexual separatists going off to live in isolated sex segregated communes. They have husbands, boy friends, sons, fathers, male colleagues and male friends. All they demand is that angry male posters not smear their gender based on silly stereotypes, ridicule and abuse.

 

That's not too much to ask.

[Porn_Guy]

; Hefner with his pajamas and viagra.

and his 19 yr old girlfriends...

[Touche]

Big deal. Any of us could go on the net and find hateful things men have said about women. Here ya go! http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/misogyny

 

And that was only a 5 second search. I could look more, but what's the point? None of the women on LS said those things Collector offered, did they? There is ALWAYS going to be some over-the-top hateful person in ANY arena, whether it be men against women, women against men, white against black (or any other color, for that matter), black against white, etc. etc. etc. We could wallow in hatred, like Woggle does, or we could try to be better people. For example, when I talked about my good man, Woggle comes back with, "well it wouldn't surprise me if you dumped him after you get bored with him" or some such rubbish. See what I mean? I say something positive about my man, and he digs at me for even a positive comment!

 

That's exactly right. When I talked about my good husband (going on fourteen years of marriage) he tried to imply that he must walk on eggshells with me and doesn't speak up for himself. When I responded that nothing could be further from the truth, he ignored my response.

 

His truth is very distorted in my opinion. I mean yes, what he spouts off about does exist but I don't think it's the norm. I don't think it represents the majority of relationships out there.

 

I've been on the other end of men's crap. They can be just as guilty as what he accuses most women of.

 

But sadly, he 's "damaged goods" in a way. He lets his crappy past define his attitudes today. It speaks of a person who doesn't have as much self-control as they purport to have.

 

A self-possessed man who is truly in control wouldn't let his past define his present...as far as thoughts and attitudes go. He'd be way more in control than that.

[The Collector]

Andrea Dworkin represents heterosexual feminisim as well as Hugh Hefner represents heterosexual manhood. Both are extremes: Dworkin in her anti-male rhetoric; Hefner with his pajamas and viagra.

 

Debating trick 101: tar your reasonable opponent with extreme/crazy positions take by others in order to undercut and marginalize her position.

 

It's a "straw woman" debate ploy.

 

The truth is much less sexy: Shack women represent mainstream, middle class feminism. They're not sexual separatists going off to live in isolated sex segregated communes. They have husbands, boy friends, sons, fathers, male colleagues and male friends. All they demand is that angry male posters not smear their gender based on silly stereotypes, ridicule and abuse.

 

That's not too much to ask.

 

Did Hugh Hefner, or anyone else ever really, talk about women with the same hatred as Dworkin et al talk about men? Larry Flynt might be a better example, but he's hardly lauded by the intellectual elite as many of those feminsists remain. Are the quotes donnamaybe found, from fictional characters,in anywhere near the same league of violent hostility? I'm not anti-feminism, and I get that no one on Loveshack talks like those quotes, but it's not a straw man (and a new term needs to be invented for people who lazily dismiss any point as a straw man argument) because my point is that this hatred of men is something any man growing up in the last few decades will have been aware of/had thrown in his face, and it's milder form of misandry is ever-present in the modern media.

 

Woggle's first post is about women in the real world disparaging men. It also about how any slightly negative talk of women on Loveshack is met with hostility whereas anti-male comments are often left unchallenged. For the record, I don't agree that men should be free to wallow in hatred or mindlessly vent, but I do notice that Jersey Shortie, in many ways Woggle's gender opposite, gets far more leeway to disparage men and wallow in her gender-hatred and still get helpful advice and a certain level of respect than Woggle who is consistently negated and his posts twisted and taken out of context.

 

The women here don't want their gender smeared with generalizations? Like this thread suggesting that women can dish it out but can't take it? I think that's broadly true, and hardly hate-speech.

[Woggle]

To be honest women like Andrea Dworkin and Valerie Solanas are not that big deal. I might hate them but they lay their cards on the table and will tell you to your face that they hate you. A man knows exactly where he stands with a woman like this and part of me respects that honesty. The more subtle misandry that the less aware men don't even notice is what you need to look out for. It's the woman that smiles in your face but really hates your guts or the woman that you thought loved you but turns on you at the drop of a hat that you need to worry about.

[Woggle]

And women like that DO exist, and I dislike them as well. They give the rest of us a bad name.

 

So, Woggle, feel free to help men ferret out these rotten women and find good ones. But please don't make all the men on LS feel there ARE no good ones. Capice?

 

Did I ever say there are NO good ones? I make it a point to say that all women are not like this but there is a larger trend that cannot be ignored by men. If more men thought like me you would have less men that are blindsided when their wives and girlfriends turn on them.

[GorillaTheater]

Note I am not calling DonnaMaybe a liar when she says she and her friends don't sit around bitching about men. Nor do most of my female friends, I'm pretty sure. But neither should Donna call PinkKittyCat a liar when she says she experiences that.

 

Donna seems far less interested in a meaningful exchange of ideas and viewpoints than she is in "scoring points" and playing up to her "cyber buddies". In that sense she's on exactly the same page as Boxing and Green and to a lesser extent clv and Woggle (the latter two having no obvious intent to seek the approval of other posters).

 

And for the record, I love women. Particularly those in their 40s <waves to Jersey Shortie>.

[Jersey Shortie]

Cleopatra (Claudette Colbert) and Marc Anthony (Henry Wilcoxon) in Cleopatra (1934):

-- Cleopatra: ' What's this? Anthony hates women too? '

-- Marc Anthoiny: ' Out of their place I do . They've no place amongst men. They can't think and they can't fight. They're just playthings for us .'

 

They seemed to leave out the part where Marc Anthony was very enamored with Cleopatra. She had him wrapped around her finger.

 

 

 

Tara IS a wonderful poster; one of the best, IMO.

 

I will second that.

 

 

 

....because my point is that this hatred of men is something any man growing up in the last few decades will have been aware of/had thrown in his face, and it's milder form of misandry is ever-present in the modern media.

 

Unfortunetly, there is more modern media that does mock men. It probably does influence some women's opinions to some degree. I think people absorb more of their media then they realize. But lets not forget that there is a histroy of years of media that mocked, degraded and stereotyped women, way before it did so to men. Again, this goes back to media being absorbed by people more then they probably think. That's not to say that it's somehow "worse" for women, or "right" now that we have probably endured more pitfalls in the media and now men are starting to see their own. But realistically, women have been dealing with these issues way before men and unfortunetly some of the backlash seems to be that men now have to deal with them too. I would rather see a man represented as a good family man then an enpt "funny" one. Just a I rather see a beautiful women shown with respect and not told to dress in a bikinni and prace around for ratings and act like a tart. That's fine if you want to address the issues you face as a man and feel that men are being demeaned. But be honest enough to address the otherside. All the frustration and hurt comes from both sides feeling used and subterfuged. This isn't about only "men" or only "women. It's about both sides relating to the other and treating them with respect and not treating them with the base idea that the other sex is there to provide them with something. Can you really claim men have advanced so much that they do this?

 

Woggle's first post is about women in the real world disparaging men. It also about how any slightly negative talk of women on Loveshack is met with hostility whereas anti-male comments are often left unchallenged. For the record, I don't agree that men should be free to wallow in hatred or mindlessly vent, but I do notice that Jersey Shortie, in many ways Woggle's gender opposite, gets far more leeway to disparage men and wallow in her gender-hatred and still get helpful advice and a certain level of respect than Woggle who is consistently negated and his posts twisted and taken out of context.

 

Dude, that's because I don't say nearly the kind of things about men that Woggle says about women. I have issues with men and come here to discuss them but you are over exploiting me to suit your own agenda. I don't think most people here think I hate men.

 

By the way, you want to talk about something that degrades one gender and is often myisgonistic..lets talk about porn. But porn is okay right? It's okay to treat women like disposable play toys but you want us to hear you out on things that bother you as a man and the ways you feel demeaned right?

 

[

[Jersey Shortie]

Do you see the difference? Woggle's bitter, seething hatred postively SCREAMS from his opening post. JS's, on the other hand, seems to be begging for understanding and wishing to not feel how she does. She is sad and wishing for something else. Her post does not begin, "Men are all vile, evil creatures who only sneak around and screw other women!" THAT would more accurately mirror Woggle's posting style.

 

Thanks Donna

[Woggle]

All porn is not degrading. I have always said that I have no issue with a woman going to a male revue club or watching porn. I would much rather she do that than start hanging with a bunch of manhating friends who want to destroy our marriage and there are women like that. The funny thing is that if I took issue with her having friends like that I would be a controlling jerk but if I want to simply look at a playboy or go to a strip club with the guys she has every right to try and control my actions.

[donnamaybe]

Donna seems far less interested in a meaningful exchange of ideas and viewpoints than she is in "scoring points" and playing up to her "cyber buddies". In that sense she's on exactly the same page as Boxing and Green and to a lesser extent clv and Woggle (the latter two having no obvious intent to seek the approval of other posters).

 

And for the record, I love women. Particularly those in their 40s <waves to Jersey Shortie>.

 

Yeah, I'm sure THIS post is where you got that novel idea.

 

And women like that DO exist, and I dislike them as well. They give the rest of us a bad name.

 

So, Woggle, feel free to help men ferret out these rotten women and find good ones. But please don't make all the men on LS feel there ARE no good ones. Capice?

[donnamaybe]

All porn is not degrading. I have always said that I have no issue with a woman going to a male revue club or watching porn. I would much rather she do that than start hanging with a bunch of manhating friends who want to destroy our marriage and there are women like that. The funny thing is that if I took issue with her having friends like that I would be a controlling jerk but if I want to simply look at a playboy or go to a strip club with the guys she has every right to try and control my actions.

 

I would no more find it wrong for you to want her to not hang around women like that than I would find it wrong for MY man to not hang around men like you who would poison his mind against women.