Where religion and science clash - the dinosaurs

[Enema]

Indeed, according to the Bible the history of man after Eden is essentially an ongoing legal process.

 

... where humanity is being punished for the sins of Adam & Eve.

 

Reminds me of a verse:

 

Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

 

Oh wait, my bad. That seems like a contradiction

[clv0116]

... where humanity is being punished for the sins of Adam & Eve.

 

Not the way I read it. The way it looks to me humans are being punished for their own individual sins. The fact they (we) are (supposed to be) defective by design is another issue entirely.

[Moose]

If any religious person in this discussion could explain to me how the Jesus story makes sense nowadays I would be much obliged.

Sure, that's an easy one!

 

Since the fall of man, we are all sinners. In fact, there are a lot of times that we sin and aren't even aware of it. For instance, if the speed limit is 70 mph, and you're driving 71.....that's a sin.

 

We can't take two doves to the altar and slaughter them to pay for that sin now and days because the SPCA or FEMA would have your butt thrown in jail.

 

When you look at a woman and imagine what she'd feel like in bed....that's a sin. You can't take your finest lamb to the altar and slaughter it now and days.....well, again the SPCA or FEMA would have you thrown in jail...

 

As long as followers of Christ repent daily in prayer and ask forgiveness for their sins with a contrite heart, the sin(s) are buried never to be brought up again, our slate is once more as clean as can it can possibly be.

 

Christ paid the ULTIMATE sin, (past, present, future) for all who trusts in Him. God knows our "balance" of sin comitted here on earth, but Christ represents us on our behalf and His Father will then allow us into the fold.

 

It's like you have an over drawn bank account, but you reach out to someone you know can help, and they do so by paying your debt(s)....

 

I hope that makes sense...

[FleshNBones]

Christianity and Judiasm did not start with a book. The Bible is far from being an accurate historical document or textbook. Yes there are inaccuracies and inconsistiencies in it.

 

There are a lot holes, and unanswered questions in it. I do think it is childish to endlessly and mindlessly ask "why". Some people try to write in their own conclusions in an attempt to discredit it.

 

In some sense, the Bible is not complete. The authors did not talk about a lot of things. I am not aware of any fully comprehensive science books. In fact, there will never be a complete fully comprehensive science textbook. Does the fact that my book on evolution ignores quantum physics discredit evolutionists in general?

 

I would be impressed if some these critics can provide a "mistake" free science textbook. Should be burn all of those books because they contain "mistakes"? The volume of plagiarism is just staggering, and they even plagiarize the mistakes.

 

Given the age of the Bible, I am impressed by how well its writings were preserved.

 

 

Furthermore, I am convinced that this "mythological battle between science and religion" is nothing more than a myth. Some people are just terminally discontent. They will always find something to complain about.

[Moose]

The Bible is far from being an accurate historical document or textbook. Yes there are inaccuracies and inconsistiencies in it.

I call BS on this statement. There are complimentaries through and through. Anyone who reads the Bible in the, "wooden literal" sense would state this, BUT, when you read the bible under the power of the Holy Spirit, the Bible makes PERFECT sense.

There are a lot holes, and unanswered questions in it. I do think it is childish to endlessly and mindlessly ask "why". Some people try to write in their own conclusions in an attempt to discredit it.

Not, "holes", more like "mysteries" that the finite can not comprehend. Again, unless you're saved and you have the Holy Spirit within you, there is NO WAY you'd see this!

Furthermore, I am convinced that this "mythological battle between science and religion" is nothing more than a myth.

Not myth per say, rather, science is a window into God's creation.

[FleshNBones]

I call BS on this statement. There are complimentaries through and through. Anyone who reads the Bible in the, "wooden literal" sense would state this, BUT, when you read the bible under the power of the Holy Spirit, the Bible makes PERFECT sense.

Jesus never gave the Bible authority.

 

Whether or not you like it, there are inconsistencies, but that is one consequence of combining sources from several different authors, and traditions. I don't think these are necessarily errors, but something they did in the spirit of preservation. In other words, less editing on their part.

 

Some people can't handle anything that falls short of heavily processed. They must be spoonfed something that was extruded from a tube.

Not, "holes", more like "mysteries" that the finite can not comprehend. Again, unless you're saved and you have the Holy Spirit within you, there is NO WAY you'd see this!

You are issuing a challenge to guys who will never rise to the occasion.

 

These holes do exist. Stem cell research anyone? When does life begin? When does life end?

Not myth per say, rather, science is a window into God's creation.

The conflict between the two is a manufactured myth with a phony history.

There are scientists who see science as a way of revealing God.

[NoIDidn't]

I've read it. Numerous times, and refer to it often.

 

 

Let's say it said something as simple as "wash your hands often." Imagine how many lives that would have saved. I wonder how many died in order to preserve the "joy" of discovering basic sanitation.

 

I thought you said that you read the Bible?! If you did, then you missed the Law portion of the Old Testament where the health laws were given.

 

In fact, if you did, you missed the part where Jesus was harassed by the priests because they said that his disciples didn't wash their hands (to the elbows as was their custom) before they ate (Mark 7).

 

It obviously doesn't matter if the rules make any sense or not, people still followed (and still follow) them. There is nothing wrong with shellfish, yet the Bible says not to eat them, so they didn't. Don't eat pork, so they didn't. If the Bible said, "boil your utensils after using them" they would've.

 

 

Actually research has shown that the rules made perfect sense for then. Shellfish and pigs eat refuse. They are, and have been called by scientists, natures trash cans. Back then, they didn't have refrigerators to keep the growth of bacteria at bay in both shellfish and pork. They also didn't know how to "cure" pork back then either. So there was a reason for those laws.

 

 

Not an affront to you or anyone else in particular, but it always amazes me that science is given "discovery" points when religions have observed certain things to be true long before the science ever caught up. Jewish midwives washed before touching laboring mothers and made sure that no one else came near them and the babies (not to treat women as second class citizens either) to protect both mother and baby at a very vulnerable time for the both of them. But medical science just figured it out.

 

I think its a very "european" view to claim that "no one knew about hand washing" just because europeans didn't know about it. Same thing with other science. The Egyptians, a deeply religious and superstitious people, knew the Earth was round long before Colombus - but that's not what we are taught in schools. I had a Polish history teacher in high school who told us that "we" (as in all of humanity) mistakenly thought that pregnancy only lasted for five months because that was the time that a woman actually showed. His logic lasted only a few seconds with most of us asking him why then did other cultures know it lasted approximately a year (and the Bible calls it "the time of life"). He corrected himself and said he was speaking of the Polish fables he learned regarding pregnancy.

 

School children are taught what Europeans misunderstood about the world as if it was fact around the world, when it wasn't. I am always amazed when those who claim to be so well versed in, well, everything, don't ever point this out in their arguments.

[burning 4 revenge]

I thought you said that you read the Bible?! If you did, then you missed the Law portion of the Old Testament where the health laws were given.

 

In fact, if you did, you missed the part where Jesus was harassed by the priests because they said that his disciples didn't wash their hands (to the elbows as was their custom) before they ate (Mark 7).

 

 

 

Actually research has shown that the rules made perfect sense for then. Shellfish and pigs eat refuse. They are, and have been called by scientists, natures trash cans. Back then, they didn't have refrigerators to keep the growth of bacteria at bay in both shellfish and pork. They also didn't know how to "cure" pork back then either. So there was a reason for those laws.

 

 

Not an affront to you or anyone else in particular, but it always amazes me that science is given "discovery" points when religions have observed certain things to be true long before the science ever caught up. Jewish midwives washed before touching laboring mothers and made sure that no one else came near them and the babies (not to treat women as second class citizens either) to protect both mother and baby at a very vulnerable time for the both of them. But medical science just figured it out.

 

I think its a very "european" view to claim that "no one knew about hand washing" just because europeans didn't know about it. Same thing with other science. The Egyptians, a deeply religious and superstitious people, knew the Earth was round long before Colombus - but that's not what we are taught in schools. I had a Polish history teacher in high school who told us that "we" (as in all of humanity) mistakenly thought that pregnancy only lasted for five months because that was the time that a woman actually showed. His logic lasted only a few seconds with most of us asking him why then did other cultures know it lasted approximately a year (and the Bible calls it "the time of life"). He corrected himself and said he was speaking of the Polish fables he learned regarding pregnancy.

 

School children are taught what Europeans misunderstood about the world as if it was fact around the world, when it wasn't. I am always amazed when those who claim to be so well versed in, well, everything, don't ever point this out in their arguments.

Do you think the European temperment is the deepest because it is the most melancholy?

[NoIDidn't]

Do you think the European temperment is the deepest because it is the most melancholy?

 

LOL. Its the weather. They'd be much happier people if they lived somewhere that's always warm.

[Moai]

I thought you said that you read the Bible?! If you did' date=' then you missed the Law portion of the Old Testament where the health laws were given.[/quote']

 

Oh, I've read them.

 

In fact, if you did, you missed the part where Jesus was harassed by the priests because they said that his disciples didn't wash their hands (to the elbows as was their custom) before they ate (Mark 7).

 

Which commandment is "wash your hands", again? If the Bible is so hip with hygiene why did people in the Middle Ages fear bathing and call lice "pearls of god" as it was thought the dirtier you were the closer to godliness you were? Could it be because since Jesus' disciples didn't wash their hands maybe you could infer other believers should shun the practice as well?

 

Actually research has shown that the rules made perfect sense for then. Shellfish and pigs eat refuse. They are, and have been called by scientists, natures trash cans. Back then, they didn't have refrigerators to keep the growth of bacteria at bay in both shellfish and pork. They also didn't know how to "cure" pork back then either. So there was a reason for those laws.

 

Interesting. I am sure that the Japanese, for example, would be interested to find out that they shouldn't have eaten shellfish for all those centuries because they lacked refrigeration. There are tribes that currently exist who have no refrigeration and don't "cure" pork and live very well.

 

Interestingly, god bans pork but not cows, sheep, or horses yet they carry anthrax and pigs do not.

 

WHy are locusts kosher, given your "bottom feeder" suggestion above? Or catfish? Catfish are bottom feeders and kosher.

 

What are the health risks of eating cheese and meat together again? Oh, and while we are at it please explain why I can't have cheese on a chicken sandwich even though chickens do no produce milk to nurse their young.

 

 

Not an affront to you or anyone else in particular, but it always amazes me that science is given "discovery" points when religions have observed certain things to be true long before the science ever caught up. Jewish midwives washed before touching laboring mothers and made sure that no one else came near them and the babies (not to treat women as second class citizens either) to protect both mother and baby at a very vulnerable time for the both of them. But medical science just figured it out.

 

"Just figured it out"? You mean in the geological sense of time...? Figured out what, exactly? The Masai in Africa bathe their newborns in cow urine. Sounds gross at first, until you realize that urine is sterile. and as they have no access to alcohol it serves a vital purpose.

 

Human beings were doing a great many things that were good for them before they understood the "why" of it all, that is no surprise. However, if god were to write a book, why not include "boil water before you drink it--or at least pass it through cheese cloth."

 

Does science need to "catch up" to the idea that demons cause disease? Why not a recipe for something as simple and life-saving as aspirin?

 

I think its a very "european" view to claim that "no one knew about hand washing" just because europeans didn't know about it. Same thing with other science. The Egyptians, a deeply religious and superstitious people, knew the Earth was round long before Colombus - but that's not what we are taught in schools.

 

I never said that other cultures didn't know about frequent hand washing. The point is that a book written by god, supposedly, has little or nothing to say on the subject. Hence not bringing up other cultures.

 

The Japanese, to use them as an example again, have been fastidious for millenia. And contrary to popular myth, Columbus knew that the world was round. Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth around 240 B.C. Anyone who lives near water knows the Earth is round, as you always see the top of a returning ship first.

 

The Bible describes the Earth as flat, by the way.

 

I had a Polish history teacher in high school who told us that "we" (as in all of humanity) mistakenly thought that pregnancy only lasted for five months because that was the time that a woman actually showed. His logic lasted only a few seconds with most of us asking him why then did other cultures know it lasted approximately a year (and the Bible calls it "the time of life"). He corrected himself and said he was speaking of the Polish fables he learned regarding pregnancy.

 

Ok...

 

School children are taught what Europeans misunderstood about the world as if it was fact around the world, when it wasn't. I am always amazed when those who claim to be so well versed in, well, everything, don't ever point this out in their arguments.

 

Why should that be pointed out? We are discussing the impact of the Bible and the lack of any real help within it. The Bible has nothing to do with what was going on at that time in Asia or South America, for example.

 

You do raise an interesting point, though. Given how clean the Japanese have been for about 7,000 years, why didn't god give his "chosen people" the same head's up? Instead of forbidding all pork products, just say, "cook pork until well-done, and use the skin of the animal to make amazing articles of clothing? Why demand animal sacrifice? Couldn't he have told the Hebrews that to do so would be an incredible waste of resources? Is the smell of burning ram kidneys pleasing to the lord? Why? ANd how does the lord smell it without a nose?

 

I could go on and on and on...

[Moai]

Do you think the European temperment is the deepest because it is the most melancholy?

 

Is the European temperment the deepest? I am not sure how you'd measure that, but off the top of my head I always thought that Zen Buddhists were the deepest.

[clv0116]

Which commandment is "wash your hands", again?

 

The '10 commandments' are a later invention, there are hundreds of laws including laws regarding sanitation and when a person has to wash their hands. Also on things like proper disposal of human waste.

 

In fact the attention given to sanitation in the law gave rise to a pretty extreme set of washing traditions in the Jewish community.

[Moai]

Like baptism after orgasm, segregating women during their period, etc.

 

These stem from the idea of the human body being filthy/sinful more than they do hygiene, IMHO.

 

I would point to the fact that starting a fire on the Sabbath is punishable by death as evidence that any residual benefit of Biblical Law is luck more than anything.

[clv0116]

I would point to the fact that starting a fire on the Sabbath is punishable by death as evidence that any residual benefit of Biblical Law is luck more than anything.

 

As I noted before, the health and sanitation as well as sabbath stuff seems (again, best addressed by a believer if ANY of them actually read the Bible) peripheral or supporting compared to the theme.

 

For instance adherence to the law, while it might have had some practical benefit, was something that set the nation apart from the rest as a group designated to produce the messiah. The strict lineage tracking and odd provisions for maintaining as many family lines as possible were probably also part of this.

[NoIDidn't]

I could go on and on and on...

 

And you did, but you ignored where I pointed out that the Bible does in fact require hand washing.

 

Instead of actually addressing that, you create a Japanese strawman.

 

The Bible AND the Quran specifically mention hygenic practices for that very reason. Just because you've decided that their mention of them is to prove the sinfulness of the human body out of your own bias doesn't change that fact.

[NoIDidn't]

As I noted before, the health and sanitation as well as sabbath stuff seems (again, best addressed by a believer if ANY of them actually read the Bible) peripheral or supporting compared to the theme.

 

For instance adherence to the law, while it might have had some practical benefit, was something that set the nation apart from the rest as a group designated to produce the messiah. The strict lineage tracking and odd provisions for maintaining as many family lines as possible were probably also part of this.

 

Most Rabbis would agree with this point. The cultures around Israel at the time apparently didn't practice their level of cleanliness. So that Israel was commanded to do these things had nothing to do with sinful bodies and natures. It had everything to do with rooting out disease, protecting families and family lineages.

[NoIDidn't]

In fact the attention given to sanitation in the law gave rise to a pretty extreme set of washing traditions in the Jewish community.

 

Ever heard of the phrase "Cleanliness is next to godliness"?

 

The sanitation laws are the reason for this. For anyone to deny this speaks volumes of their bias and unreasonableness in denying that in fact the Bible does speak quite a bit about hygiene and not as a precursor to punishing sin.

[clv0116]

... segregating women during their period ...

 

That one likely has more to do with the way blood was viewed more than anything sexual. Blood handling and disposal was carefully dealt with in the law and blood was viewed as having a strong symbolic value in the rites therein. Lot's of prescribed and proscribed issues around blood, human and otherwise.

[Moai]

Ever heard of the phrase "Cleanliness is next to godliness"?

 

I sure have. It would be great if that phrase was in the Bible, but it isn't.

 

The sanitation laws are the reason for this. For anyone to deny this speaks volumes of their bias and unreasonableness in denying that in fact the Bible does speak quite a bit about hygiene and not as a precursor to punishing sin.

 

Hygiene is only a small part of it. That is a simple, easy thing god could have commanded, and at best the Bible goes half way. In fact, there were many cultures contemporaneous with the Hebrews who were far ahead in this area--how can that be, if the Bible is inspired?

 

It was deemed important enough to go into excruciating detail about how to sacrifice a ram to him (right thigh but not left, the kidneys with the fat, etc.) and yet not one thing about prenatal care, iodine in the diet (Kosher salt is kosher because it doesn't have iodine, by the way. Look at the kid in Deliverance if you want to know what iodine deficiency does), boiling water before drinking it, ad infinitum.

 

Consider, too, that with all the "clean" and "unclean" animals and which you can and can't eat, there is not one word about poisonous plants, or the medicinal qualities of others. Why? If god created everything, he is certainly aware of the properties of everything, and yet no mention of aspirin--which is truly a wonder drug. No mention of the importance of citrus fruits, or leafy vegetables in the diet.

 

There is not one thing in the Bible that could not have been written by your average person walking around in Judea at that time. Not one single, solitary thing.

[dunstable]

Consider, too, that with all the "clean" and "unclean" animals and which you can and can't eat, there is not one word about poisonous plants, or the medicinal qualities of others. Why? If god created everything, he is certainly aware of the properties of everything, and yet no mention of aspirin--which is truly a wonder drug. No mention of the importance of citrus fruits, or leafy vegetables in the diet.

 

There is not one thing in the Bible that could not have been written by your average person walking around in Judea at that time. Not one single, solitary thing.

 

Great points, Moai. I challenge all the religious folks to come up with an example of a hygiene/health law in the Bible that shows divine inspiration because it could not possibly have been known to the "average person walking around in Judea at that time" as you so very well put it.

[FleshNBones]

Great points, Moai. I challenge all the religious folks to come up with an example of a hygiene/health law in the Bible that shows divine inspiration because it could not possibly have been known to the "average person walking around in Judea at that time" as you so very well put it.

A little off topic isn't it.

Just a little....

 

I wonder if dinosaurs are kosher.

[dunstable]

A little off topic isn't it.

Many threads go off topic but it doesn't stop them being stimulating and useful!

[disgracian]

For instance, if the speed limit is 70 mph, and you're driving 71.....that's a sin...We can't take two doves to the altar and slaughter them to pay for that sin now and days because the SPCA or FEMA would have your butt thrown in jail.

 

...

 

When you look at a woman and imagine what she'd feel like in bed....that's a sin. You can't take your finest lamb to the altar and slaughter it now and days.....well, again the SPCA or FEMA would have you thrown in jail...

Did it occur to you that the act of atoning for that sin (slaughtering animals) is by far and away worse than the original act or thought?

 

Cheers,

D.

[burning 4 revenge]

Is the European temperment the deepest? I am not sure how you'd measure that, but off the top of my head I always thought that Zen Buddhists were the deepest.

My temperment is the deepest

 

So deep, like a bottomless vomitorium

[Moai]

And you did' date=' but you ignored where I pointed out that the Bible does in fact require hand washing.[/quote']

 

No, you pointed out that priests washed their hands before they ate, as was their custom, and the disciples came in and ate without washing their hands. There is not commandment about hand washing in the Old or New Testament.

 

And I did address it. I mentioned that it could be that verse that led early Christians to abstain from bathing.

 

Instead of actually addressing that, you create a Japanese strawman.

 

A strawman how? You made the claim that "research" has shown that if you do not have refrigeration it is harmful to eat shellfish and pork, and that they are bottom feeders and therefore eating them is dangerous. I simply addressed that assertion of yours, which is demonstrably false. People living at the same time the Bible was written were eating shrimp. pork, and all sorts of non-kosher foods, and doing just fine.

 

The Bible AND the Quran specifically mention hygenic practices for that very reason. Just because you've decided that their mention of them is to prove the sinfulness of the human body out of your own bias doesn't change that fact.

 

Please provide me with the "wash your hands often" passage is in the Bible. I have no idea if it is in the Koran or not, but I doubt it.

 

Is making clothing from more than one kind of thread harmful? (Leviticus 19:19)

 

Why does the Bible forbid crop rotation, seeing as how it has been a boon to modern agriculture? (same verse}