Where religion and science clash - the dinosaurs

[clv0116]

Isn't it tautology for you to say the bible is true because it contains a verse stating it is true?

 

One minute it's a collection of books by different authors, the next it's one book.

[Moai]

You will never admit that I have a point. You will just continue to push the issue over to something else. First it was the Japanese. Now its whether or not the people of that time knew any better.

 

I am not sure you understand how debate works. You were the first to bring up other cutlures (the Egyptians, if memory serves). Second, in order to show that the rules in the Bible, if any, are BEHIND what existed in other places at the same time. The reason this is important is it suports the idea that the bible is not divinely inspired. The question goes something like this:

God knows everything.

God inspired the Bible.

The Hebrews are od's chosen people.

God gave specific rules for particluar foods and behavior.

God did not give any substantive advise regarding health.

 

Re: God's chosen people. If the Hebrews are god's chosen people, why would another people (the Japanese are a culture I chose) be ahead of them, seeing as they did not have the benefit of divine help?

 

Look. The phrase isn't in the Bible. You and I both know that I am talking about HOW the phrase came to be.

 

The phrase came to be because we figured out it is a good idea to wash our hands, and it is a nifty little phrase to get people to remember that.

 

You claim that the Bible doesn't have anything helpful like sanitation suggestions. I show that it does and you move the goalpost.

 

Actually, you posted an example that shows how the Bible could be shown to deter people from washing their hands. Let's look:

 

1. The priests wash their hands before they eat.

2. The disciples come in and do NOT wash their hands.

3. The priests are disgusted, and say so.

4. Jesus begins to call them hypocrites, etc.

 

If I was someone who wanted to be a disciple of Jesus, it is easy to see how I might think that Jesus might not want me to.

 

I'm wasting my time with you on this. I totally respect your knowledge and opinions about the things you actually willing to be objective about. But on this topic, you would rather state that religion has no benefits than ever admit that it does. Its a shame. I'm not interested in converting you.

 

Religion having no benefits is a separate issue. The only question here is why god, who could have inspired anything he wanted, chose to inspire the exact same knowledge that existed at the time.

 

Its a simple phrase. It comes from the many healthwise dictums listed in the Bible and other Holy books of other religions. It doesn't have to actually be in the Bible to be based on biblical concepts.

 

Like "Spare the rod, spoil the child", I suppose. Funny, but beating your child actually IS in the Bible.

 

If you can point to an article that shows how Biblical law led to the modern concept of hygiene I would love to read it.

 

Conversely, I would look at the reactions of Europeans during the Black Plague. Obviously, what you so easily see was not seen by them, to the chagrin of millions dead.

[Moai]

The Bible doesn't forbid crop rotation. It calls for the land to be given a rest every three to seven years (the Year of Jubilee).

 

Leviticus 19:19: "Obey my laws. Never crossbreed different kinds of animals. Never plant two kinds of crops in your field. Never wear clothes made from two kinds of material."

 

That allows for the same thing as a crop rotation, does it not? A crop rotation basically allows the ground to not use up all of particular nutrients that may be drained by certain crops by going to another item. Not doing any new planting for a year allows the land to replenish itself to a degree.

 

The Bible recommends it, but it doesn't appear that the Israelites or anyone in the Bible for that matter, ever honored this either.

 

I would imagine they followed it, but by itself it isn't very effective. It was not until the 1730's when Townshend devised what we know as crop rotation that it really took off.

 

The is another great example, thank you.

[clv0116]

If the Hebrews are god's chosen people, why would another people (the Japanese are a culture I chose) be ahead of them, seeing as they did not have the benefit of divine help?

 

There are any number of ways to measure how far 'ahead' a culture is. Most of them are irrelevant to the theme of the Bible and making an argument like this based on those methods of measurement is pointless. I'd even question the validity of the entire argument as it assumes things I'm not sure are true.

[Moose]

Thanks for the generous apology! There's nothing like an apology for making people feel they are not so far apart after all.

 

Yes, I agree that state of mind directly affects physical well being. I have personally experienced that in a small way.

 

What is the reason you say "salvation" was a brand new concept in that era? I'm not saying it wasn't, just asking what is the basis for thinking so.

 

I do sleep better for knowing my bills are paid the analogy doesn't help me make any better sense of the Jesus story, which I assume is what you were alluding to. Without laboring the point, I don't see how I was in trouble with God for something that Adam and Eve did and how Jesus got me out of that trouble 2000 years before I was born. I don't in the least want to be rude, but the bible stories seem to me to be stories for primitive peoples and nowadays for those with a childlike belief in what they are told. If that's offensive, I'm sorry, but it's what I genuinely feel.

What is the reason you say "salvation" was a brand new concept in that era? I'm not saying it wasn't, just asking what is the basis for thinking so.

I'll just tell you what MY mind and Heart believes......In the Old Testament, there were many rituals that had to be done to the letter. Customs, Cultures, all change within time. Soon enough, we could no longer hold these rituals, "legally" anymore. There had to be the ultimate sacrifice to pay for ALL sin.

 

Then comes Christ.

 

He lived a sin-less life, and was as pure as any man could ever hope to be. He fulfilled ALL of the Old Testament Laws on our behalf.

 

If you believe in Him, and His purpose, and His FREE gift, you inherit FULL payment for your sins paid for in the eyes of God Himself.

[Moose]

I remember that thread, probably a little better than you do. You steadfastly ignored my questions about the inconsistencies in the Gospel accounts of who visited Jesus' tomb during his resurrection, who got there first, the number of angels in attendance and soforth.

 

Cheers,

D.

Either way you read the four Gospels, each one COMPLIMENTS the other, however the basis remains.

 

NO MAN (in that era) would shamefully write that a woman of the faith would visit the tomb before a man.

 

That would be admitting that my wife beat off a 200lb man cause I was getting the tar beat out of me....

[Moose]

So you admit that the "god" of the Bible got it wrong. Thanks for proving mine.

 

Cheers,

D.

Nope D. It means He had to make a decision.

 

And to fit His ultimate plan, He did so perfectly.

 

A man opens a business hoping he'll get honest help. Free will doesn't allow that to happen and it fails. Man closes business, and begins a new one.

[Moai]

There are any number of ways to measure how far 'ahead' a culture is. Most of them are irrelevant to the theme of the Bible and making an argument like this based on those methods of measurement is pointless. I'd even question the validity of the entire argument as it assumes things I'm not sure are true.

 

The "theme" of the Bible is not the oint. Given that there are at least 25,000 versions of Christianity out there, the "theme" can be argued and argued.

 

Beyond that the Bible is more than just a "spiritual guide." It contains rules for dealing with slaves, how to plant your crops, what clothes you can wear, and what you can eat. It lists things as "clean" and "unclean"--with little rhyme or reason.

 

If the claim is made that the Bible is divinely inspired--which it is--then can't one ask why there are nonsensical rules within it, and why god would not choose to help man more than he did? Why not accelerate the hebrews ahead of everyone else?

 

I only brought up other cultures because I was responding to claim, namely that "research" shows that the prohibition on shellfish and pork made sense at the time. In addressing that claim, is it not germane to point out that contemporaneous to the Hebrews there were other cultures happily eating shellfish and pork?

 

Hence my question about hygiene. You can make it about anything, really. Why didn't god ban slavery? Why didn't he grant equal rights to women? Why did he say that if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, she must marry her rapist? Does any of that remotely sound rational or good to anyone living in a civilized country today?

 

Of course not. Anyone who looks at the Bible can see that it is not divinely inspired in the least bit.

[dunstable]

Anyone who looks at the Bible can see that it is not divinely inspired in the least bit.

Completely agree. You've given many good examples to demonstrate convincingly it could not have been divinely inspired.

[sb129]

Your physical health is directly reflective of your Spiritual health. Now I agree there are some instances where we may get sick, or have a fatal illness. That doesn't necessarily mean that the person's Spiritual health is lacking. It just means God's plan is being fulfilled.

 

When your are a follower and have the Holy Spirit within in, it's clear instantaneously and there is NO doubt what is good for your body or what is bad.

 

Hmm.

 

My dad was the only person in my immediate family who believed in god, and he died at the age of 57 of an aggressive cancer three months after he walked me down the aisle, and six months before he would have become a grandfather for the first time.

His mother died ten days later, and his sisters husband had died three months earlier.

 

Three deaths in one family in four months. All the remaining members of the family are either confirmed atheists or have very little faith left- we are all fighting fit, in fact I have never been healthier.

[Moose]

Three deaths in one family in four months. All the remaining members of the family are either confirmed atheists or have very little faith left- we are all fighting fit, in fact I have never been healthier.

Why doubt that this isn't something God had planned? How many sould that you don't know of came to Him because of these events?

[sb129]

Because I can't. I haven't gone to god, and a few other members of the family have moved AWAY from god as a result.

 

"Gods plan" is no comfort at ALL.

Seeing as its you Moose, I'm not, because I know you mean well, but those kind of statements from anyone else just make me furiously angry at the moment.

 

No family should have to go through that amount of grief in such a short time, and this is the second round of tragic events thats happened to us, and we are a good, close, happy family.

We have had enough grief to last a lifetime.

 

Wouldn't a higher being have better things to do than cause so much sadness if it wasn't necessary?

[dunstable]

First of all again i'm going to state that whilst I am not religious, I am not an aetheist. I am entirely open-minded to the possibility that there may be a God, and also that there may not be.

 

But one thing i've always struggled to make sense of is the dinosaurs. I'm not completely familiar with the Bible inside and out, but if God made the world and then people, then what was the purpose of the dinosaur?

 

Of course we all know at one time dinosaurs, not man, ruled the earth. Now if we look at this from a religious perspective, we could explain it as, God as a creator, created one species, the dinosaur, for whatever reason - a test run etc, and when they failed to live up to his expectations, he eradicated them, and then began again with humans, who became the new species to take over the earth. But if we assume God created the dinosaur before man - what was the reason for them? And if we assume the dinosaur means nothing in God's plan - then how do we make sense of the fact that they pre-dated the human?

 

The above is the original post. Out of 111 replies to date, only 10 even mention the dinosaurs, and most of those in a joking way. I'm surprised that none of the religious folks have put forward a serious answer to the question, which I would summarize as "Where do the dinosaurs fit into God's plan?".

[clv0116]

If the claim is made that the Bible is divinely inspired--which it is--then can't one ask why there are nonsensical rules within it, and why god would not choose to help man more than he did? Why not accelerate the hebrews ahead of everyone else?

 

Given the theme, why? An argument could be made (indeed, the book of Job records a similar argument) that too much help would tip the results unfairly.

[clv0116]

Why doubt that this isn't something God had planned?

 

Because the Bible says so. I wish you ****ers would read your own book.

[disgracian]

Either way you read the four Gospels, each one COMPLIMENTS the other, however the basis remains.

 

NO MAN (in that era) would shamefully write that a woman of the faith would visit the tomb before a man.

I see, so some complement honesty with dishonesty? Since you admit that some of the Gospel accounts were false (and deliberately so), one wonders how you maintain your belief in its divine inspiration then.

 

Cheers,

D.

[mental_traveller]

First of all again i'm going to state that whilst I am not religious, I am not an aetheist. I am entirely open-minded to the possibility that there may be a God, and also that there may not be.

 

But one thing i've always struggled to make sense of is the dinosaurs. I'm not completely familiar with the Bible inside and out, but if God made the world and then people, then what was the purpose of the dinosaur?

 

Of course we all know at one time dinosaurs, not man, ruled the earth. Now if we look at this from a religious perspective, we could explain it as, God as a creator, created one species, the dinosaur, for whatever reason - a test run etc, and when they failed to live up to his expectations, he eradicated them, and then began again with humans, who became the new species to take over the earth. But if we assume God created the dinosaur before man - what was the reason for them? And if we assume the dinosaur means nothing in God's plan - then how do we make sense of the fact that they pre-dated the human?

 

You're assuming god, if he exists, would be an interventionist god - one who directs everything that happens day to day, such as the Dinosaurs dying out. But in the that case god would be denying free will, everything living would basically just be a pawn of his with no independent ability to control their own destinty. IMO if there was a god, it would be unlikely he would run the universe this way, it seems kind of pointless. It's more likely IMO that a god would create life, and then allow it free will to fight and try to survive on its own merits. Under this situation, everything & everyone is let to live its own life - which leaves the definite possibility that some species won't make it and will die out.

 

Let's face it, in a world where children and babies get raped and murdered before they even grow up, and millions of innocents die of war or disease or starvation, it's pretty clear that either there is no god, or that any god which exists is non-interventionist for the most part.

[mental_traveller]

 

So it seems that the same omniscient, all powerful God who put the bones into the dirt to LOOK like there were millions of years old, and who fixed the stars and the microwave background in the sky to LOOK like there had been a big bang, didn't choose to comment any further ahead in time than donkeys and slaves when he set down His Word in the one and only true document for the ages.

 

Except the bible isn't the direct word of god, it is a third hand account written by numerous authors claiming to describe him. The accounts of the 4 apostles even differ, let alone the old testament. At least the Koran, for example, is one guy claiming it was god's direct word as spoken/revealed to him. The bible is a mish mash of conflicting stories from people who claim to have met someone (in some cases not even that - in the old testament they just heard the story of someone who claimed to have heard the word of god) who is claimed (2nd hand via alleged witnesses, mind you) to be the son of god.

 

Basically the bible would not stand up in court, it would be dismissed as hearsay. Mohammed might be viewed by a court as a madman, but at least he can pretend to be a first-hand witness.

[clv0116]

The above is the original post. Out of 111 replies to date, only 10 even mention the dinosaurs, and most of those in a joking way. I'm surprised that none of the religious folks have put forward a serious answer to the question, which I would summarize as "Where do the dinosaurs fit into God's plan?".

 

Yet again best addressed by a believer however the creation account does not disallow the existence of dinosaurs on the prehistoric earth. It merely omits mentioning them in the same way the Bible fails to discuss the nature of quarks or electromagnetic radiation.

[Rooster_DAR]

We've had a thread about, "inconsistencies" and I was able to shoot every single one of them down in flames.

 

 

I remember that thread very well. I remember you just sort of dropped off the radar when confronted with these inexplicable apparent flaws that were pointed out.

[dunstable]

Yet again best addressed by a believer however the creation account does not disallow the existence of dinosaurs on the prehistoric earth. It merely omits mentioning them in the same way the Bible fails to discuss the nature of quarks or electromagnetic radiation.

Since we are not getting believers coming in on the question, I will point that some creationists believe that the bible does mention dinosaurs but it calls them "dragons" or "behemoths", as the term dinosaur is a relatively modern one. Creationists may also point out that all land animals, including dinosaurs and humans, were made on day 6 of the creation (and a day means a day), so dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans. They may say that dinosaurs became extinct because conditions were not favorable to them when they got off Noah's Ark after the Flood. (Please don't think I believe any of these fairy stories, I'm just telling you what I've heard!)

[Moai]

Given the theme, why? An argument could be made (indeed, the book of Job records a similar argument) that too much help would tip the results unfairly.

 

Job is more about believing in the face of adversity, which is also germane o this point.

 

Given the activity on this thread and the fact that there are three different Abrahamic religions alone, one could ask why god didn't give any information that would prove that he is the one true god, especially since it would be so easy.

 

Considering prophecy, there is no lack of god giving out information to give his people a head start, if you will. Even in this instance it is too bad the prophecies are so nebulous as to mean anything, and they are wrapped in the superstition of the day.

[Moai]

You're assuming god, if he exists, would be an interventionist god - one who directs everything that happens day to day, such as the Dinosaurs dying out. But in the that case god would be denying free will, everything living would basically just be a pawn of his with no independent ability to control their own destinty. IMO if there was a god, it would be unlikely he would run the universe this way, it seems kind of pointless. It's more likely IMO that a god would create life, and then allow it free will to fight and try to survive on its own merits. Under this situation, everything & everyone is let to live its own life - which leaves the definite possibility that some species won't make it and will die out.

 

Let's face it, in a world where children and babies get raped and murdered before they even grow up, and millions of innocents die of war or disease or starvation, it's pretty clear that either there is no god, or that any god which exists is non-interventionist for the most part.

 

The god you desribe would not them inspire holy books.

[disgracian]

I remember that thread very well. I remember you just sort of dropped off the radar when confronted with these inexplicable apparent flaws that were pointed out.

For those that don't, the thread in question is here. People can decide what was and was not shot down in flames.

 

Cheers,

D.

[clv0116]

.... a day means a day ...

 

In my fathers day I'm pretty sure some people didn't think that about the Genesis account.