Where religion and science clash - the dinosaurs

[clv0116]

Job is more about believing in the face of adversity

 

In the first bit, note the original accusation leveled.

 

 

 

....especially since it would be so easy.

 

Ya, you'd think something like opening a way of escape through an impassible body of water or something could be set up at least.

 

 

 

Considering prophecy, there is no lack of god giving out information to give his people a head start, if you will.

 

Indeed the first prophecy sets up the theme of the rest of the work..

[TaraMaiden]

Either way you read the four Gospels, each one COMPLIMENTS the other, however the basis remains.

 

NO MAN (in that era) would shamefully write that a woman of the faith would visit the tomb before a man.

 

That would be admitting that my wife beat off a 200lb man cause I was getting the tar beat out of me....

 

Actually, I have seen this happen.

A petite woman of 32 years, fended off four attackers - all much bigger than she was....while they were all beating up her cousin. She knocked two of them out cold, broke one others' arm, and the 4th suffered from concussion.

Mind you, she was Italian regional Tai kwondo Champion and instructor.

I know you are speaking of your wife, but such things can happen.

So be careful just how much you generalise....

 

Remember, Christ expects you to be perfect. In fact, he recommends it.

 

_/l\_

[TaraMaiden]

They may say that dinosaurs became extinct because conditions were not favorable to them when they got off Noah's Ark after the Flood. (Please don't think I believe any of these fairy stories, I'm just telling you what I've heard!)

 

Noah's ark. Now there is an amusing conundrum.

 

In the year 2008, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in the United States, and said:

"Once again, the earth has become wicked and over -populated, and I see the end of all flesh before me."

 

"Build another Ark and save 2 of every living thing along with a few good humans."

 

He gave Noah the blueprints, saying:

"You have 6 months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights."

 

Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his yard - but no Ark.

 

"Noah!," He roared, "I'm about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?"

 

"Forgive me, Lord," begged Noah, "but things have changed."

 

"I needed a building permit."

 

"I've been arguing with the inspector

about the need for a sprinkler system."

 

"My neighbors claim that I've violated the

neighborhood zoning laws by building the Ark in my

yard and exceeding the height limitations. We had to

go to the Development Appeal Board for a decision."

 

"Then the Department of Transportation demanded a

bond be posted for the future costs of moving power

lines and other overhead obstructions, to clear the

passage for the Ark's move to the sea. I told them

that the sea would be coming to us, but they would

hear nothing of it."

 

"Getting the wood was another problem. There's a ban

on cutting local trees in order to save the spotted owl."

"I tried to convince the environmentalists that I

needed the wood to save the owls - but no go!"

 

"When I started gathering the animals, an animal

rights group sued me. They insisted that I was

confining wild animals against their will. They

argued the accommodations were too restrictive, and

it was cruel and inhumane to put so many animals in

a confined space."

 

"Then the EPA ruled that I couldn't build the Ark until they'd conducted an environmental impact study on your proposed flood."

 

 

"I'm still trying to resolve a complaint with the Human Rights Commission on how many minorities I'm supposed to hire for my building crew."

 

"Immigration and Naturalization are checking the green-card status of most of the people who want to work."

 

 

"The trades unions say I can't use my sons. They insist I have to hire only Union workers with Ark-building experience."

 

 

To make matters worse, the IRS seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species."

 

 

"So, forgive me, Lord, but it would take at least 10 years for me to finish this Ark."

 

"Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow stretched across the sky."

 

Noah looked up in wonder and asked, "You mean you're not going to destroy the world?"

 

"No," said the Lord.

 

"The GOVERNMENT beat me to it."

 

I find it quite entertaining to ask questions like how did the Kangaroos and penguins get to the ark before the 'water enveloped the world' so as the ark could float and how did the ark get to both Australia and the North Pole to put them back before the waters subsidied and the ark could not float again?

 

And then there is the question of the fish.....

The animals taken on board the ark would have had to include all the freshwater fish that would not survive the salted waters of a global flood. Being so many different species of carp alone a special ark had to be built with many deck levels to house them all.

 

This is believed, by some, to have been the very first multi story carp ark in the world.

 

Don't blame me, I did not write this stuff.

 

But it still bears thinking about!!

[clv0116]

For those that don't, the thread in question is here. People can decide what was and was not shot down in flames.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Looks like Moose did pretty well.

[disgracian]

At ignoring pertinent questions, yes.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moai]

In the first bit, note the original accusation leveled.

 

 

 

 

 

Ya, you'd think something like opening a way of escape through an impassible body of water or something could be set up at least.

 

The Sea of Reeds is not an impassable body of water, if it is that to which you refer.

 

Are dubious magic tricks more convincing than facts? One thing that someone living then could not possibly have known would be all it takes. Just one. Why not list the speed of light? This would give any head start to the people at the time--if that is god's concern--but when we figured out how accurate this ancient book was divinely inspired?

 

Consider the Tower of Babel. God destroyed the Tower because it was going to be so high that it would reach Heaven. We now know that 1) the "Heaven" described cannot be above the Earth. In fact, it is not in our Solar System or in any part of the known galaxy. It is impossible to build a Tower to Heaven; 2) We can now build structures exponentially higher than were possible at that time. Why are the Sears Tower, Empire State Building, et al still standing?

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed the first prophecy sets up the theme of the rest of the work..

 

Does it? Jews don't think so. Again, one would think that if divine inspiration were involved there would be no doubt.

 

As an aside, it seems to me that since the Jews, who were the people that god chose and who were given the first divinely inspired books do not consider Jesus to be the Messiah, they should be the ones deferred to.

[TaraMaiden]

How odd

Of God

To choose

The Jews.

 

— William Norman Ewer

 

But not so odd

As those who choose

A Jewish God,

But spurn the Jews

 

— Retort by Cecil Browne

[clv0116]

The Sea of Reeds is not an impassable body of water, if it is that to which you refer.

 

Ah, but the real miracle was in drowning all those Egyptian warriors in it I guess. Again not saying I believe it, that's not the point. The point is there's no reason given the scope to include a Periodic Table or a treatise on the optical qualities of Aluminum Oxide.

 

 

 

Consider the Tower of Babel. God destroyed the Tower because it was going to be so high that it would reach Heaven.

 

My reading was that it was due to disobedience, the reaching heaven thing was not germane. Indeed, the theme over and over seems to be obedience and the right to rule.

[clv0116]

Does it? Jews don't think so.

 

Interestingly they did think so at the time. Events that have since transpired have forced some rethinking, and now it's not possible to have a Messiah so I guess measures have to be taken.

 

Romans and all, you know.

[Moai]

Interestingly they did think so at the time. Events that have since transpired have forced some rethinking, and now it's not possible to have a Messiah so I guess measures have to be taken.

 

Romans and all, you know.

 

But the Jews still don't think so. That is the point.

[Moai]

Ah, but the real miracle was in drowning all those Egyptian warriors in it I guess. Again not saying I believe it, that's not the point. The point is there's no reason given the scope to include a Periodic Table or a treatise on the optical qualities of Aluminum Oxide.

 

 

 

 

 

My reading was that it was due to disobedience, the reaching heaven thing was not germane. Indeed, the theme over and over seems to be obedience and the right to rule.

 

It wasn't disobedience, it was because the huge tower would not glorify god, but rather make a name for themselves. Even more reason to wonder why skyscrapers are standing.

[NoIDidn't]

Anyone who looks at the Bible can see that it is not divinely inspired in the least bit.

 

But one would have to actually believe in the divine to be able to make such a distinction.

[clv0116]

It wasn't disobedience, it was because the huge tower would not glorify god, but rather make a name for themselves.

 

Which was them being disobedient.

[JamesM]

It wasn't disobedience, it was because the huge tower would not glorify god, but rather make a name for themselves. Even more reason to wonder why skyscrapers are standing.

 

Which was them being disobedient.

 

Actually, you both are right.

 

(Trust me...Moai is very proficient in Scripture. )

 

As it states, they did it to make a name for themselves and it was intended to keep them together as one people. This was in direct disobedience to God's command in Genesis 9:1 .....

 

1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

 

The goal of the Tower was to give them something that would unite them. But God scattered them by confusing their language.

 

Genesis 11:9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because

there the LORD confused the language of the whole

earth; and from there the LORD scattered them

abroad over the face of the whole earth

 

Why are skyscrapers still standing? Because it was not the actual building of the tower that was at issue. It was the intention behind the building of the tower. But I am guessing you knew that.

[clv0116]

Actually, you both are right.

 

(Trust me...Moai is very proficient in Scripture. )

 

Then why would he say those ancient people were not being disobedient... I wonder?

[disgracian]

Why wouldn't god want unity among people? Isn't that better than people congregating into tribes, and then nations which habitually war with each other because of their differences?

 

Still, what do you expect from a god of peace that calls himself a man of war?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Trojan John]

...and on the third day, this thread arose from the dead...

[disgracian]

Double post.

[JamesM]

Then why would he say those ancient people were not being disobedient... I wonder?

 

1. Because he is not perfect in his understanding of the Bible.

 

2. Because he wants to start a "discussion." He likes heated discussions.

 

3. Because he is only reading the part which says they wanted to make a name for themselves.

 

Both answers are correct, and by themselves, neither is complete.

[Left in a Lurch]

Look, Fred had Dino as a pet. That clearly proves humans existed in the time of dinosaurs, and there was not mention of that in the Bible.

I think that omission has more to do with copy right laws than anything else.

[clv0116]

Both answers are correct, and by themselves, neither is complete.

 

Why were they punished? They disobeyed. That's complete. The details of the disobedience are just that, details.

 

Instead, he said:

 

• It wasn't disobedience. Wrong.
• It was because the huge tower would not glorify god. Wrong. While the tower would not glorify god, that's NOT the reason for the punishment. It's like me saying I got pulled over for burning my toast. It might be true I burnt my toast and subsequently got pulled over for speeding, but the linking of one as the cause of the other is wrong.
• There should be some Biblical injunction against tall buildings. Wrong.

 

 

Here:

 

It wasn't disobedience, it was because the huge tower would not glorify god, but rather make a name for themselves. Even more reason to wonder why skyscrapers are standing.

 

Now the idea of just giving the pot a stir I can completely understand, so maybe that's what he was doing.

[Trimmer]

...and on the third day, this thread arose from the dead...

Apparently God is punishing us...

[NoIDidn't]

Apparently God is punishing us...

 

LOL. Nah, that was me resurrecting this thread. It was interesting.

 

Fred and Dino? LOL. Okay, Sarah Palin. LOL

[NoIDidn't]

Why wouldn't god want unity among people? Isn't that better than people congregating into tribes, and then nations which habitually war with each other because of their differences?

 

Still, what do you expect from a god of peace that calls himself a man of war?

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Nations don't war with each other because of their differences. They do so because of RESOURCES and GREED. This has been the case since nations consisted only of one tribe. And even within the same tribe (ie, Abraham and Lot over the well, Gen 13:5 - 12) did people fight over resources.

[Moai]

Why were they punished? They disobeyed. That's complete. The details of the disobedience are just that, details.

 

Instead, he said:

 

• It wasn't disobedience. Wrong.
• It was because the huge tower would not glorify god. Wrong. While the tower would not glorify god, that's NOT the reason for the punishment. It's like me saying I got pulled over for burning my toast. It might be true I burnt my toast and subsequently got pulled over for speeding, but the linking of one as the cause of the other is wrong.
• There should be some Biblical injunction against tall buildings. Wrong.

 

 

 

 

Here:

 

 

 

Now the idea of just giving the pot a stir I can completely understand, so maybe that's what he was doing.

 

I am sorry, but you are not correct. Please show in the text where disobedience is mentioned AT ALL.

 

Genesis 11:1-9 "1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children built. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth."

 

Here is the description from Wikipedia: "However, the Tower of Babel was not built for the worship and praise of God, but was dedicated to the glory of man, with a motive of making a 'name' for the builders: "Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.'" (Genesis 11:4). God, seeing what the people were doing, came down and confounded their languages and scattered the people throughout the earth. It had been God's original purpose for mankind to grow and fill the earth."

 

The story is has a two-fold meaning. One is a way to explain why there are many languages on Earth when there should be one (which is the main thrust), since we all came from Noah after the Flood, and second that god detests human pride.

 

I reiterate: Disobedience is not mentioned. I did not post this to "stir the pot" unless asking a simple question does so.

 

If this story is to be taken as literally true, is it not normal for one to wonder why there are towers around today that far exceed what could have been built then--and none of them were built to glorify god?

 

I would appreciate any links to scripture that support your point about disobedience etc., instead of just declaring I am wrong out of hand. It is certainly possible that I could be wrong, but I think I have provided sufficient evidence in this instance to show that is not the case.