"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare

[zman]

Agree or Disagree?

[quankanne]

disagree. It's actions, not thoughts, that have consequences.

[NEONINK]

Absolutely agree... There are no good or bad events, just different.

 

If I think, 'This breakup is going to be the worst thing in the world'... You bet it will be, and my world will feel like it's ended.

 

If I think, 'I'm not going to break down and cry, I'm going to be strong and move on, because God has something planned for me even bigger and better', chances are better and quicker for a positive, healthy outcome.

 

Attitude. It doesn't always work, but it's better than nothing. Perhaps the actual events that led to the thought are not changed, but how we perceive them can make all the difference in the world. The key is to actually want the positive side of the coin. Quite frankly, when you run in the path of self-destruction and pity and misery for so long, it's hard to break out of the rut. I'm personally having a hard time choosing the better path of thought because I've been down so long, by choice, which is what the quote is referring to.

 

 

* The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale

 

* How to Make Yourself Miserable By Windy Dryden - a Sheldon Press book

 

 

Are probably examples that the quote is accurate.

[Iamhappy]

I'd say thoughts affect actions and perceptions and the assignment of meaning. I think therefore I am (Descartes).

[jenny]

babies -

is this for a homework assignment? that would change the flavour of my answer. if it is, you should provide the context and historical meaning of the quotation before soliciting answers.

[zman]

Originally posted by quankanne

disagree. It's actions, not thoughts, that have consequences.

 

I don't think the meaning of my Shakespearian quote was that thoughts and not actions have consequences.

 

They both do.

 

How about this:

 

Watch your thoughts;

they become words.

 

Watch your words;

they become actions.

 

Watch your actions;

they become habits.

 

Watch your habits;

they become character.

 

Watch your character;

it becomes your destiny.

[2SidestoStories]

Change your thinking; change your life.

[zman]

Originally posted by jenny

babies -

is this for a homework assignment? that would change the flavour of my answer. if it is, you should provide the context and historical meaning of the quotation before soliciting answers.

 

 

Good point! Unfortunately I'm guilty of not knowing which play this quote comes from or what the context is. Perhaps some Shakespearian experts on this site can enlighten me and the rest of us!

[Iamhappy]

Hamlet Act II Scene II I think.

 

Though I do believe that Shakespeare borrowed it from French essayist Montaigne who believed that our moral judgments are simply a reflection of the customs of the society to which we belong. Hence, there is no objective right or wrong.

[moimeme]

Maybe it's just one of those 'what do you think about life' threads.

 

If we're talking about actions, then we're into the field of morality; objective or subjective.

 

I'm taking it in the Ellis sense of 'you feel as you think' and I agree. You can look at any event as a complete disaster or as a challenge to be overcome. You can allow yourself to believe 'I can't live without him' or else decide that there will be another person. If your chemicals are all working straight, then you need to be sure your thinking patterns are, too.

[jenny]

Originally posted by Iamnotnothing

Hamlet Act II Scene II I think.

 

Though I do believe that Shakespeare borrowed it from French essayist Montaigne who believed that our moral judgments are simply a reflection of the customs of the society to which we belong. Hence, there is no objective right or wrong.

 

you ROCK! who is it spoken by? hamlet is an immensely "moralized" play, that's so interesting!

[moimeme]

HAMLET: Denmark's a prison.

ROSENCRANTZ: Then is the world one.

HAMLET: A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards and dungeons, Denmark being one o' the worst.

ROSENCRANTZ: We think not so, my lord.

HAMLET: Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me it is a prison.

 

Poor man's version: one man's trash is another man's treasure

[zman]

Originally posted by Iamnotnothing

Hamlet Act II Scene II I think.

 

 

You are correct! Here is the context:

 

Hamlet

(blah, blah, blah,) ..... What's the news?

 

Rosencrantz

None, my lord, but that the world's grown honest.

 

Hamlet

Then is doomsday near: but your news is not true.

Let me question more in particular: what have you,

my good friends, deserved at the hands of fortune,

that she sends you to prison hither?

 

Guildenstern

Prison, my lord!

 

Hamlet

Denmark's a prison.

 

Rosencrantz

Then is the world one.

 

Hamlet

A goodly one; in which there are many confines,

wards and dungeons, Denmark being one o' the worst.

 

Rosencrantz

We think not so, my lord.

 

Hamlet

Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing

either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me

it is a prison.

 

Rosencrantz

Why then, your ambition makes it one; 'tis too

narrow for your mind.

 

Hamlet

O God, I could be bounded in a nut shell and count

myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I

have bad dreams.

 

Guildenstern

Which dreams indeed are ambition, for the very

substance of the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.

 

Hamlet

A dream itself is but a shadow.

 

Rosencrantz

Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and light a

quality that it is but a shadow's shadow.

 

Hamlet

Then are our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and

outstretched heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we

to the court? for, by my fay, I cannot reason.

 

 

For fuller context, click on the link:

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/shakespeare/tragedies/hamlet/chap7.html

[EnigmaXOXO]

Agree.

 

But I also wonder if the human conscience as we know it is inherent or learned. Are emotions such as guilt and remorse instinctual and biologically ingrained just as anger, sadness and joy...or are they simply a bi-product of our social conditioning?

 

If we were taught from infancy that there was no distinction between right or wrong behavior, would we then also feel no emotion at all when committing atrocities against our fellow man?

 

Frightening.

[moimeme]

This discussion needs to branch off into all of philosophy and much of psychology to answer that!

[cindy0039]

From Act 2, Scene 2 of Shakespeare's Hamlet:

 

HAMLET: Denmark's a prison.

ROSENCRANTZ: Then is the world one.

HAMLET: A goodly one; in which there are many confines, wards and dungeons, Denmark being one o' the worst.

ROSENCRANTZ: We think not so, my lord.

HAMLET: Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me it is a prison.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

One of the striking features of this phrase is the polysemous way Shakespeare uses the word "but." The usual meaning—as an exclusion or limit (nothing is either good or bad except for when thinking makes it so)—is still valid, as is the trivial sense (nothing is either good or bad yet the mere act of thinking makes it so); and to these the Bard ingeniously adds a sense of threshold: nothing is either good or bad unless and until thinking makes it so.

 

Hamlet's radical claim that morality supervenes on cognition is rendered all the more poignant by this ambivalence, for he not only suggests that we assign moral values contingently, but he also calls into question the very idea of a fixed and absolute "good" or "bad". Is this a profound insight on Shakespeare's part or is the young prince as crazy as those around him suspect?

 

Another curious thing about Hamlet's statement is his assertion that thinking is what decides good and bad. Why not feeling, which seems to be the usual way we value one thing above another, or perhaps some mixture of the two? And what of revelation—don't the world's assorted religions each implicitly claim a monopoly on morality? Or is it that when Hamlet says "thinking" we should read "wishing"? In other words, perhaps morality is whatever we want it to be. Suffering is, after all, usually justified as right or necessary by those who cause it, or allow it. Shakespeare thus forces us to question whether reason alone is sufficient to distinguish right from wrong, true from false, mad from sane.

 

That morality-obsessed Hamlet should opine that nothing is inherently good or bad is strong evidence, as if we needed it, that he is psychically disturbed. But although he is profoundly unsettled he is not psychotic, for in the same dialogue from which our quote is taken, he admits: "I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw." In other words he is feigning madness, as a kind of camouflage, while he struggles to make sense of the heretical proposition that "reality" and "truth" are not the absolute notions he has been led to believe or come to expect—an unthinkable notion in his world. Hamlet's crisis is what follows from the deeply troubling realization that the structure of reality is fundamentally different from the inculcated notions we all, to some extent, hold.

 

What do you think?

 

These are not my thoughts. I found them on an internet site but thought they were very good.

[jenny]

hey - not nothing -you ROCK! mmm..scholars...

 

interestingly, hamlet says in reference to denmark being a prison, and to preface the bull$hit pseudo-philosophical conversation with rosencratz and guildenstern <intended to parody socratic dialogue and show hamlet's degrading state of mind> given this, i can't discuss this seriously without unwittingly committing the same discourse masturbation; but i will say that i think the statement would ***not*** support a positive self-help viewpoint. it's a moral play, this is a moralizing statement, intended to mock relativism and the delusional thinking that corrupts ambition, **not** introduce the power of positive thinking.

 

here is the excerpt:

 

Ham. Then is Doomesday neere: But your newes is

not true. Let me question more in particular: what haue

you my good friends, deserued at the hands of Fortune,

that she sends you to Prison hither?

Guil. Prison, my Lord?

Ham. Denmark's a Prison.

Rosin. Then is the World one.

Ham. A goodly one, in which there are many Con-

fines, Wards, and Dungeons; Denmarke being one o'th'

worst.

Rosin. We thinke not so my Lord.

Ham. Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing

either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me it is

a prison.

Rosin. Why then your Ambition makes it one: 'tis

too narrow for your minde.

Ham. O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell, and

count my selfe a King of infinite space; were it not that

I haue bad dreames.

Guil. Which dreames indeed are Ambition: for the

very substance of the Ambitious, is meerely the shadow

of a Dreame.

Ham. A dreame it selfe is but a shadow.

Rosin. Truely, and I hold Ambition of so ayry and

light a quality, that it is but a shadowes shadow.

Ham. Then are our Beggers bodies; and our Mo-

narchs and out-stretcht Heroes the Beggers Shadowes:

shall wee to th' Court: for, by my fey I cannot rea-

son?

Both. Wee'l wait vpon you.

 

 

p.s.

LOL! guess i was too late! Cindy, my god you're a quick text draw! i want to join your crew of merry bandit scholars!

[zman]

Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO

Agree.

 

But I also wonder if the human conscience as we know it is inherent or learned. Are emotions such as guilt and remorse instinctual and biologically ingrained just as anger, sadness and joy...or are they simply a bi-product of our social conditioning?

 

I think it's a combination of both in more or less equal parts.

 

It is funny how many people continually want to create dichotomies out of the world.

[moimeme]

I never was a fan of English or Lit classes; I was nauseated by the efforts 'scholars' would put into reading images and subtext into every innocent word or phrase. One teacher could find a phallic symbol in everything which drove me nuts. It's like people who 'interpret' art back to an artist, whose reply is often that s/he only wanted to paint a flower, not a symbol of female sexuality.

 

Yes, some writers consciously interjected moralizing into their writing. Others, doubtles, used symbolism. However sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Morality is discussed in Hamlet but I don't agree that this is one of those discussions. This reveals his state of mind, nothing more. He despairs; feels he is trapped by his situation, and understands that, because of this, he sees Denmark as a place/state of mind from which he cannot escape.

[zman]

Originally posted by cindy0039

 

These are not my thoughts. I found them on an internet site but thought they were very good.

 

 

Damn Cindy,

 

I read half way through all that thinking it was you talking! I'm like geez, where is this coming from? Is this chick smart or what?!??

 

 

So I'm confused as how I should reference the quote.

 

Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act II Scene II ?

 

Hamlet, Act II Scene II, by Shakespeare?

 

Just leave it at Shakespeare?

 

Just leave it as Hamlet?

[2SidestoStories]

So I'm confused as how I should reference the quote.

 

from Hamlet , Wm. Shakespeare; Act II, scene ii

 

 

(I was a theatre student.)

[jenny]

lol! i'm sorry if my efforts nauseated you. your interpretation is, of course, also an interpretation. i was describing the context of the scene as i saw it, and in no way did i offer any psychoanalytic critique.

 

the deeper intent of the author does not interest me, it's incorrect to believe we can read his or her mind. i am interested in the words as they appear on the page. i think the reference to ambition invokes claudius clearly as part of his thoughts; and the buffoonery of r. and g., like that of polonius, is intended to help see the discussions as partly comic waste of time and words, and partly, as you say, a way to hamlet's increasingly confused state of mind.

 

i work hard to be respectful to your interests in different pathologies. your disrespect for literary critique surprises me.

 

cheers, j

[quankanne]

if I were a man, I'd have a hard-on right now from all this lovely insight into Shakespeare. you guys rock!

 

quank,

the wankie-less

[cindy0039]

Originally posted by zman

Damn Cindy,

 

I read half way through all that thinking it was you talking! I'm like geez, where is this coming from? Is this chick smart or what?!??

 

Hmm...thinking... I'm not sure how to interpret that. You're not calling me dumb now, are you?

[zman]

Originally posted by cindy0039

Hmm...thinking... I'm not sure how to interpret that. You're not calling me dumb now, are you?

 

Oh no, of course not! You're obviously very smart, just maybe not the Shakespearian genius I thought you were sounding like!