Responsibility, Blame, and Outcomes

[herenow]

I am so sorry for your pain. I haven't been an OW or cheated on (not that I know of), but I am a wife, so I am more inclined to identify with you.But that shouldn't be a point that concerns you as a wife. If your husband made advances to a hundred women and they all said NO, isn't he still a cheater? In the best case scenario, the spouse resist any external temptation. The OW is guilty, but it's your spouse who betrayed YOU. There are many bad people in this world, but you were hoping that your husband shouldn't be one of them. The OW's slot can be filled with any woman, but your husband's slot was reserved just for your marriage.

 

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean the BW is at fault for the choice of her H.

[White Flower]

I read part of this thread on the OW forum, but not all of it. Here is my opinion:

 

I do believe that the person to blame for an affair is the one that is cheating on their spouse. I don't have any thoughts about if the OW cares about the pain I was caused by the affair, because she isn't part of my life and her feelings aren't my concern.

 

Same goes for the pain she was caused by the affair. Not my problem. And because she was fully aware that she was having an affair with a married man, she can't blame my H either. She is responsible for the pain she is feeling. If an OW doesn't want to take responsibility for the pain that her actions have caused then she can't blame anyone but herself when she is the one feeling the pain. Can't have it both ways. JMO.

 

So many OW come here complaining about the MM when the affair is over. I don't get it. The OW already knew he was a cheater and a liar based on the fact that he was having the affair in the first place. So when the OW experiences pain because she made the choice (assuming she knew) to get involved with a MM, who is at fault for her pain? IMO, the only person she can blame is herself.

 

If the OW is unwilling to take responsibility in her part of the BW's pain, then why would she place blame on anyone else for her own pain? To expect the MM to care about the OW and her pain is unreasonable when the MM knows that the OW doesn't care about the pain he is causing his own wife.

I agree on all counts except that which I bolded.

 

I must admit that I wanted to blame exMM for persuing me, etc., etc., but in the end I could have said no and prevented my own pain. I must own that.

 

About not caring about the pain he causes his wife...I did care and did everything in my power to ensure she didn't find out. And if she would have I was willing to tell her what she wanted to know and then back off. I don't like placing a territory on love (marriage contracts, eternity, etc.) but I do understand that others do and respect their right to expect their spouses to uphold a contract, especially if the spouse is a willing reciprocant to uphold it.

 

IOW, she believes her marriage contract says until death do you part. While I believe it is ridiculous to hold anyone to a promise like that (now) over a lifetime I understand that she does not feel it is ridiculous and expects her marriage contract to be honored. Therefore, I would never expect a MM to leave for me. If he left on his own, good for him.

 

So, while discovering the A would certainly cause pain to a BS, how it is then handled can happen in a very caring way.

[White Flower]

Are you comparing an OW to an unthinking blow up doll?

Absolutely not!!!

 

What I was saying that CS's have many things they turn to besides an OW. Some turn to porn, others turn to gambling, while others yet turn to workaholic type behavior. Anything can be an OW; anything can be his affair. Like I said, to I blame the stock brokers for my H's gambling problem there? No, the broker did not force him to betray me, my H did.

[herenow]

I agree on all counts except that which I bolded.

 

I must admit that I wanted to blame exMM for persuing me, etc., etc., but in the end I could have said no and prevented my own pain. I must own that.

 

About not caring about the pain he causes his wife...I did care and did everything in my power to ensure she didn't find out. And if she would have I was willing to tell her what she wanted to know and then back off. I don't like placing a territory on love (marriage contracts, eternity, etc.) but I do understand that others do and respect their right to expect their spouses to uphold a contract, especially if the spouse is a willing reciprocant to uphold it.

 

IOW, she believes her marriage contract says until death do you part. While I believe it is ridiculous to hold anyone to a promise like that (now) over a lifetime I understand that she does not feel it is ridiculous and expects her marriage contract to be honored. Therefore, I would never expect a MM to leave for me. If he left on his own, good for him.

 

So, while discovering the A would certainly cause pain to a BS, how it is then handled can happen in a very caring way.

 

WF, I do believe that you are compassionate because you have always looked at both sides of the situation objectively.

 

I just think it's funny how some OW can say that they aren't a part of the cause for pain (to anyone including themselves), but the BW is in part the cause for the affair.

[Lizzie60]

I haven't read the whole thread.. so this might have been said before.. sorry...

 

I have to disagree.. although the OW does have sex with the MM.. she is NOT responsible for the BW.. or even the failure of his marriage.

 

In my case, most (95%) of my MMs.. have pursued me.. it wasn't the other way around..

 

Yes, I knew they were married.. but, let's say I would have said no... what do you think would have happened.. he would have looked for someone else.. when a MM is looking for sex outside, he WILL find it..

 

Marriage is 'overated' and is 'religious' bull... Monogamy is NOT 'normal' and it is very naive to think that a man (especially a man) can be faithful sexually to only ONE woman....

 

MOST (I didn't say ALL but 99%) men cheat..

[herenow]

I'm so confused.

 

So, there are a few posts on this thread saying that if a woman says no to a MM, then he will just find someone who is willing to say yes. It's all about the MM getting his fix. I happen to agree with that.

 

However when I have said that very same thing, I'm accused of bashing and not accepting that the MM is truly in love with the OW and i it weren't for the kids, finances, etc. the MM would certainly leave his wife for the OW.

 

Please explain. Thank you in advance.

[White Flower]

Well, sure. I've heard some younger gals in a R complain about Playstation. But do you think a guy's overplaying of a Playstation game can compare to the betrayal and despair felt at the discovery of an affair? An affair it took TWO people to create?

I suppose it is subjective. At the beginning of my M I noticed my H always had some kind of addiction whether he played too many games, spent too much time with others, etc. I used to tell him that the stock market was his OW. Affair or addiction, my H was not available to me and I felt betrayed.

 

When he had the EA I believe it hurt a little more deeply at first because I looked to myself and what I might have contributed to his wandering. On this one note I will agree with you that an A between two people can hurt more. But once I realized there was nothing specific about me through MC then I felt less hurt by the A. I don't even blame him anymore for that. Nor do I blame her. I didn't like her hanging around my business so much and making her presence known to my employees but don't blame her now. She was good for him in a way I couldn't be, had no power to be, and eventually I learned through her temporary presence in our M that we were just not right together. The whole process was about self-awareness. But one can't see it at the time.

[RinClavin]

I am so sorry for your pain. I haven't been an OW or cheated on (not that I know of), but I am a wife, so I am more inclined to identify with you.But that shouldn't be a point that concerns you as a wife. If your husband made advances to a hundred women and they all said NO, isn't he still a cheater? In the best case scenario, the spouse resist any external temptation. The OW is guilty, but it's your spouse who betrayed YOU. There are many bad people in this world, but you were hoping that your husband shouldn't be one of them. The OW's slot can be filled with any woman, but your husband's slot was reserved just for your marriage.

 

 

I think this is one of the best posts I've read for a long while. So true! The OW makes the choice to have sex with a MM but in order to betray someone you must first enter into an agreement with them. Some would say that all humans are bound my the same moral code, and thus any act of wrongdoing is a betrayal of morality.

 

But affairs aren't against the law, and not everyone subscribes to the same moral code. I know what I believe to be right, and I know what the vows between my husband and myself said. My husband and I chose to make the others' happiness our concern, we promised to "forsake all others".

 

When did a OP ever make that promise? When did an OP take MY happiness as their responsibility? Yes their actions did in part cause the pain that the BS feels... but they never promised otherwise.

 

Many OM/W do feel guilty for their actions, and beat themselves up over the futility of their affair... and in those cases they betray themselves. But it is the cheating spouse that betrays the faithful spouse.

 

If you don't let someone merge on the freeway and they become delayed by 5 seconds, and are later broadsided in an intersection and killed did you murder them? Are you responsible for their family's grief? The subsequent bankruptcy? The teenage son dropping out of school to work full time? The spouse's depression? There could be any number of effects to any action, and of course that's an extreme example but the same logic applies. You saw their blinker... you knew they wanted it... you selfishly decided not to let them... but you aren't responsible for their accident, for the death, for the financial difficulties, etc etc.

[White Flower]

If the M is strong and worth fighting for after an A then the survival of the M is dependent on the two MP's. But you're right, selfishness is selfishness. I think we were talking about blame though.

[White Flower]

WF, I do believe that you are compassionate because you have always looked at both sides of the situation objectively.

 

I just think it's funny how some OW can say that they aren't a part of the cause for pain (to anyone including themselves), but the BW is in part the cause for the affair.

I agree that some are not introspective enough to understand why they got involved in an A in the first place. And oftentimes I don't think it is even the BS's fault. I'm sure exMM's W was as perfect as they come. The fault lied within himself.

[White Flower]

I'm so confused.

 

So, there are a few posts on this thread saying that if a woman says no to a MM, then he will just find someone who is willing to say yes. It's all about the MM getting his fix. I happen to agree with that.

 

However when I have said that very same thing, I'm accused of bashing and not accepting that the MM is truly in love with the OW and i it weren't for the kids, finances, etc. the MM would certainly leave his wife for the OW.

 

Please explain. Thank you in advance.

Again I believe it is case by case. Some MM definitely go out and get their fix while others fall in love, accidentally or otherwise, while still others fall in love after getting their fix. All kinds of people, all kinds of As. All kinds of outcomes, perspectives on those outcomes, and arguments on the subject!

 

Sorry for the tripple post.

[herenow]

Again I believe it is case by case. Some MM definitely go out and get their fix while others fall in love, accidentally or otherwise, while still others fall in love after getting their fix. All kinds of people, all kinds of As. All kinds of outcomes, perspectives on those outcomes, and arguments on the subject!

 

Sorry for the tripple post.

 

Yes, but I believe that the MM who do fall in love with the OW are the ones that leave the marriage.

[NoIDidn't]

I admittedly haven't read all of the responses, but this is my opinion on the matter by AGreatWife.

 

I agree with you. And it doesn't surprise me that you were accused of misdirecting your anger because you singled out the part that the OW played in the affair.

 

Its really just plain denial or apathy on most of their parts for that mentality, though.

 

How many of us lost friendships in high school and growing up in general because of betrayals. The friend that continued to hang out with an enemy knowing that they were saying untrue or hurtful things about you and never came to your defense. Sure, that friend may not have said anything to disparage you, but they didn't make any attempt to defend you either. That's betrayal.

 

An affair is a betrayal. The OPs have a part in the betrayal of the marriage whether or not they ever want to admit it. Just listen when they find out that the MP as an OOP. Then they act all betrayed and wonder aloud how both the OOP and the MP could do this to them.

 

Too bad we can't talk about this honestly without some getting defensive for someone placing fault where it belongs.

 

And who ever says that the MP doesn't bear the majority of the fault for what went down in an affair? Human nature, I guess, to say "what about them" when we are being dealt with individually.

[herenow]

Some OW's come to this site and say how wonderful the MM is, what a great person he is, what a great father he is. And then, when the OW gets hurt, he is a liar and a cheater and a no good bastard. When someone calls the OW out on the fact that she knew what he was when she decided to have the affair (assuming she knew he was married), it's assumed by some that the posted must be a bitter BW.

 

So, it's OK for an OW to blame the MM for her own pain, but when a BW comes here and wants to put part of the blame on the OW since she was aware that the man was married, that's not OK. I don't get it.

[NoIDidn't]

So, it's OK for an OW to blame the MM for her own pain, but when a BW comes here and wants to put part of the blame on the OW since she was aware that the man was married, that's not OK. I don't get it.

 

 

Compartmentalization. Denial. Lack of empathy. Selfishness. Some OWs are never able to actually face themselves for what they've done: see the "I never thought, *I* would be in an affair" threads. So they excuse themselves from what they participated in and blame only the married couple. The MM for doing and saying whatever it took to keep the ego strokes coming, and the BW for not giving the MM a steady supply of ego strokes - thus necessitating the need for the OW to *have* to do it for them (only in their minds, lol).

 

I, like AGreatWife, hate the *camps* mentality that develops here. But it seems unavoidable when some people can see the forrest (the big picture) and others only focus on one tree (the MM).

 

Both people in an affair are responsible for the fallout. BOTH. And the last time I checked, the betrayed was NOT having an affair. So they can't be blamed for it.

[Lizzie60]

Some OW's come to this site and say how wonderful the MM is, what a great person he is, what a great father he is. And then, when the OW gets hurt, he is a liar and a cheater and a no good bastard. When someone calls the OW out on the fact that she knew what he was when she decided to have the affair (assuming she knew he was married), it's assumed by some that the posted must be a bitter BW.

 

So, it's OK for an OW to blame the MM for her own pain, but when a BW comes here and wants to put part of the blame on the OW since she was aware that the man was married, that's not OK. I don't get it.

 

If a cheater is lying.. that doesn't mean is not a good person... and a great father..

 

I know they lie to their W (by omission) because their W have no idea.. but I also know that they are all good people.. most are good husbands, great dads..

 

This is their 'secret garden'... it doesn't take away their other qualities.. they are even great in bed with their OW..

[Lizzie60]

Both people in an affair are responsible for the fallout. BOTH. And the last time I checked, the betrayed was NOT having an affair. So they can't be blamed for it.

 

Hum... they could be blamed for having 'pushed' their partner into the OW's bed...

[herenow]

If a cheater is lying.. that doesn't mean is not a good person... and a great father..

 

I know they lie to their W (by omission) because their W have no idea.. but I also know that they are all good people.. most are good husbands, great dads..

 

This is their 'secret garden'... it doesn't take away their other qualities.. they are even great in bed with their OW..

 

Lizzie, what I am saying is that until some OW feel pain themselves the MM is a great guy with no faults other than he is stuck in a marriage he says he wants to leave. Then when the pain hits the OW, all of a sudden that great guy is a horrible person. I ask: Why blame it on the MM when the OW knew (assuming that she knew) that he was married? If the BW can't place any blame on the OW, how can the OW place blame on anyone else?

[NoIDidn't]

Both people in an affair are responsible for the fallout. BOTH. And the last time I checked, the betrayed was NOT having an affair. So they can't be blamed for it.

 

Hum... they could be blamed for having 'pushed' their partner into the OW's bed...

 

How exactly does the betrayed push their spouse into a bed when they don't know its location? (I see the quotes, lol)

 

What about that naked lady in that bed? Who orchestrated THAT? Did the BS take her clothes off too?

 

Your position is just affair logic and rationalization.

 

I will admit to making my H angry at times, but that still doesn't 'push' him anywhere he doesn't CHOOSE to go.

[herenow]

Both people in an affair are responsible for the fallout. BOTH. And the last time I checked, the betrayed was NOT having an affair. So they can't be blamed for it.

 

Hum... they could be blamed for having 'pushed' their partner into the OW's bed...

 

So, what you are saying is that MM have sex with OW because their wives want them to.

[Dexter Morgan]

Im sorry you have been hurt. The person to be angry with is your spouse. He is the one who was married to you. He is the one who made a vow to be faithful to you.

 

This statement is absolutely correct.

 

However, anger at the OM/OW is also well placed, but never should exceed the level of anger at the WS.

 

 

Its true if noone was willing to have an affair with him, he couldnt have cheated on you. But if he werent open for business, noone could have dragged him into an affair.

 

So he was fair game to whatever huss out there?? just because he was the one that made the vows??

[Dexter Morgan]

Many great(or maybe not so great, but definitely not "bottom-feeders") men and women were adulterous-Gandhi, Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Barbara Walters, Jackie O....

 

Oh well then...I guess its all good!!!

[OWoman]

I do believe that the person to blame for an affair is the one that is cheating on their spouse. I don't have any thoughts about if the OW cares about the pain I was caused by the affair, because she isn't part of my life and her feelings aren't my concern.

 

Same goes for the pain she was caused by the affair. Not my problem. And because she was fully aware that she was having an affair with a married man, she can't blame my H either. She is responsible for the pain she is feeling. If an OW doesn't want to take responsibility for the pain that her actions have caused then she can't blame anyone but herself when she is the one feeling the pain. Can't have it both ways. JMO.

 

So many OW come here complaining about the MM when the affair is over. I don't get it. The OW already knew he was a cheater and a liar based on the fact that he was having the affair in the first place. So when the OW experiences pain because she made the choice (assuming she knew) to get involved with a MM, who is at fault for her pain? IMO, the only person she can blame is herself.

 

This I agree with.

 

I'm fully in favour of informed choices, in all matters but especially matters of the heart and the genitalia. Lust, desire, infatuation etc I believe can happen instantaneously - but for something to develop into an actualised love relationship needs conscious decision-making and actions. And while it's true that the brain performs less well in the presence of strong hormones, "acting under the influence" may constitute a mitigating factor and get you a reduced sentence but it won't change a verdict of guilty. One should only embark on something one is willing to bear the consequences of - be one MM or OW.

 

(I suppose the same could be said of marriage - by taking marriage vows you are signing up for all the potential consequences, including potential betrayal and humiliation - I guess that's why religious vows speak of "for better or worse".)

[Reggie]

Oh well then...I guess its all good!!!

 

Baba Wawa great?

[Reggie]

There seems to be some bizzare concept that because the cheating guy is , perhaps, more culpable, the OW is blameless. There is plenty of blame to go around and the Ws's responsibility does not preclude the OW/OM from having responsiblity , as well. They are co-conspirators.