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I'm still here. Had an absolutley crappy weekend. Husband has been messing with my head big time. Askes me if there is a chance we can work it out...offers to go to MC...2 days later tells me he doesn't want to do MC and theres no chance of us ever getting back together. I've been reading your posts though but have not been in the right head space to participate. If it wasn't for LS and all your positive and funny insights I might have gone crazy this weekend. I'm on the other side of the world but would be happy to give my email to anyone who wants to chat.

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I'm still here. Had an absolutley crappy weekend. Husband has been messing with my head big time. Askes me if there is a chance we can work it out...offers to go to MC...2 days later tells me he doesn't want to do MC and theres no chance of us ever getting back together. I've been reading your posts though but have not been in the right head space to participate. If it wasn't for LS and all your positive and funny insights I might have gone crazy this weekend. I'm on the other side of the world but would be happy to give my email to anyone who wants to chat.

I thought it was the other side of the pond????? :laugh::laugh:

Sorry to hear you had a bad weekend. Just need to go NC with your Hubby until he decides what he wants.....Tell him he can't have his cake & eat it to.

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searcher...

 

so good to see your name and that your are OK...well so to speak...

i am so sorry your H is giving you so many mind games..

 

i know when my dh said we could reconcile after his EA, i was elated...BUT..then he changed HIS mind too..and from there it just went down hill, rapidly..i bet i know exacly where your head is right now...NO words can explain...but as long as you keep coming to LS everyday and reading...that is great...just know we are ALL HERE for you..

 

and like PWS says, he came for one reason, but stays for another...and i am finding, i know exacly what he means:D

 

i promise, you will find away out of that FOG...you will still have sadness, depression, the whole gammit..BUT...each day will be clearer and clearer...

at first i SO DID NOT want a divorce....but with time passing and the more my dh and i talk, yes, can you all believe it, we finally got to 'that' place...well, long story short, i will always love this man...BUT, i no longer want to be married to him either...we have agreed to always be here for each other..we seem to make better friends, than husband and wife...well, we had great s-e-x too...tee hee..BUT not in a few months..and i think that was the last of it..:o...darn..LOL

 

anyway...please feel free to Privage Message me, or email me..

 

to bad we do all live so far apart..we would have one hell of a night out..LOL...so much laughs i am sure!:love:

 

ok, gonna go rest my back on a heat pad, i know i sound like an old fart...but i really over did my work out last night..LOL

 

have a great night all!;)

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FragileSwan

I read the whole post and discussion thread. I'm sorry everyone had to live through so much pain. I can feel the emotional bruises jumping off the posts. Most divorced women have a very difficult time in life. It's not something to be proud of.

 

Making a mistake in a husband, so bad that you wind up getting a divorce, speaks loudly of the woman who made that mistake. It's not like getting stitches, or having to get a car repaired.

 

No one ever recovers completely from a divorce, and least of all the women who say they have moved on. They're in denial, and so are the husbands who pour their pain into another woman.

 

Husbands do recover from divorce, because men are made to mate more than one woman. The virgin releases her blood sacrifice of innocence, as she is pierced, on her wedding night. Her bridegroom teaches her the pain of atonement, and she is psychologically, physically, biologically, and chemically bonded to that man for life.

 

No other man will ever satisfy her, because she can't offer her pain of atonement, or her blood sacrifice of innocence for any other man. For a woman it's a one way street, because Nature has given the woman exactly one blood sacrifice of innocence, that her children by the man who first pierces her might be blessed, of her holy and chaste womb.

 

The blood and water from the virgin prove she belongs to the one who pierced her. If there is no mark of innocence on the bed sheet of consummation, the man knows she belongs to someone else.

 

This is according to Natural Law. There's an old saying, "Chastity and obedience are never found without the other."

 

Please note: A woman can have several civil marriages during life, but she can only be married once by Natural Law. I've never found even one woman who was ever satisfied with subsequent sex partner(s). Divorce does away with the woman's ability to enjoy herself. That's a pretty high cost.

 

There's one thing I'm not hearing in this victory thread: 'Men who want wives naturally want a 21 year old virgin, because men are genetically programmed to desire 21 year old virgins.

 

A man looking for a wife wants her to be his own, not some other guy's, with some other guys kids. Men who are attracted to divorced women are attracted to experienced women, who are emotionally injured, because these men aren't looking for wives. They're looking to use a woman for sex, or they're total pansy asses, addicts, drunks, users, liars, and/or manipulators.

 

Don't worry. When you get on the singles sights you'll meet them all. I have gone on singles sights, and read the WOMENs' profiles. More women should read those, because they all sound exactly the same. It's like a magnet for abusers. And I'm telling you, no man is going to have mercy on you. What a woman looks like is all that matters to men.

 

The men on the singles sites are looking to cheat, lie, use, and abuse. One thing men do a lot is meet women on dating sites, so they can steal stuff from her, like money out of her purse. And every guy roaming as a dating site has porno on his cell phone.

 

That's who you're going to get. SO if any of you have a second chance, I'd take it. Start being obedient. Just say to your men,

 

"It's not up to me whether or not we get a divorce, because I'm your wife. Only you can make that decision, because I belong to you. I gave myself to you, for life, for better or for worse. Don't just throw me away. Show me you're willing to fight for me, and put your foot down. I want you to put up a fuss over me."

 

An honest good man wants his own wife, because it is the deepest desire of the man's heart to sow his accursed seed inside the innocence so pure, and beauty so breathtaking to behold, surely she must be the atonement sacrifice to make his children Immortal.

 

Divorced women have already offered their atonement sacrifice for someone else, and their innocence stays with that man. It's one way. She doesn't get it back with the divorce papers.

 

Also, after a woman reaches menopause, she is useless to any man as a wife, except the father of her children, because she sacrificed for her family, and she is the mother of the man's children.

 

Menopause is it. If a woman can't bear children, and she's divorced, no man will ever love her. It's over. Her children won't even love her, because her ex-husband is the one with the inheritance, and she doesn't have anything to offer her children.

 

Children with single moms grow up proud, lazy, materialistic, manipulative, with emotional problems, and they are always at a disadvantage compared with children from a mother and a father at home.

 

If one of you were a fly on the wall in a high school, you would see children make friends according to the marital status of their parents. That's how they group themselves.

 

The stigma of single motherhood is alive and well among high school students. Kids with married parents want nothing to do kids of single moms, because these 2 kinds of children are not compatible.

 

So divorce kids hang out with other divorce kids, and they pool their emotional pain into one big vat of suffering. No one wants to have anything to do with them, because they're a bummer'o'rama to be around.

 

Single mothers are too busy worrying about their own life fulfillment to pay any attention to their kids high school, and especially not who hangs out with who.

 

I had a lot to say. I hate seeing people destroy what little life they have left, or what little hope for their dreams to come true that they have. Life is only half over at 40. The majority of womens' lives are spent infertile. You can't waste it when you season of fertility comes.

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I read the whole post and discussion thread. I'm sorry everyone had to live through so much pain. I can feel the emotional bruises jumping off the posts. Most divorced women have a very difficult time in life. It's not something to be proud of.

 

Making a mistake in a husband, so bad that you wind up getting a divorce, speaks loudly of the woman who made that mistake. It's not like getting stitches, or having to get a car repaired.

 

No one ever recovers completely from a divorce, and least of all the women who say they have moved on. They're in denial, and so are the husbands who pour their pain into another woman.

 

Husbands do recover from divorce, because men are made to mate more than one woman. The virgin releases her blood sacrifice of innocence, as she is pierced, on her wedding night. Her bridegroom teaches her the pain of atonement, and she is psychologically, physically, biologically, and chemically bonded to that man for life.

 

No other man will ever satisfy her, because she can't offer her pain of atonement, or her blood sacrifice of innocence for any other man. For a woman it's a one way street, because Nature has given the woman exactly one blood sacrifice of innocence, that her children by the man who first pierces her might be blessed, of her holy and chaste womb.

 

The blood and water from the virgin prove she belongs to the one who pierced her. If there is no mark of innocence on the bed sheet of consummation, the man knows she belongs to someone else.

 

This is according to Natural Law. There's an old saying, "Chastity and obedience are never found without the other."

 

Please note: A woman can have several civil marriages during life, but she can only be married once by Natural Law. I've never found even one woman who was ever satisfied with subsequent sex partner(s). Divorce does away with the woman's ability to enjoy herself. That's a pretty high cost.

 

There's one thing I'm not hearing in this victory thread: 'Men who want wives naturally want a 21 year old virgin, because men are genetically programmed to desire 21 year old virgins.

 

A man looking for a wife wants her to be his own, not some other guy's, with some other guys kids. Men who are attracted to divorced women are attracted to experienced women, who are emotionally injured, because these men aren't looking for wives. They're looking to use a woman for sex, or they're total pansy asses, addicts, drunks, users, liars, and/or manipulators.

 

Don't worry. When you get on the singles sights you'll meet them all. I have gone on singles sights, and read the WOMENs' profiles. More women should read those, because they all sound exactly the same. It's like a magnet for abusers. And I'm telling you, no man is going to have mercy on you. What a woman looks like is all that matters to men.

 

The men on the singles sites are looking to cheat, lie, use, and abuse. One thing men do a lot is meet women on dating sites, so they can steal stuff from her, like money out of her purse. And every guy roaming as a dating site has porno on his cell phone.

 

That's who you're going to get. SO if any of you have a second chance, I'd take it. Start being obedient. Just say to your men,

 

"It's not up to me whether or not we get a divorce, because I'm your wife. Only you can make that decision, because I belong to you. I gave myself to you, for life, for better or for worse. Don't just throw me away. Show me you're willing to fight for me, and put your foot down. I want you to put up a fuss over me."

 

An honest good man wants his own wife, because it is the deepest desire of the man's heart to sow his accursed seed inside the innocence so pure, and beauty so breathtaking to behold, surely she must be the atonement sacrifice to make his children Immortal.

 

Divorced women have already offered their atonement sacrifice for someone else, and their innocence stays with that man. It's one way. She doesn't get it back with the divorce papers.

 

Also, after a woman reaches menopause, she is useless to any man as a wife, except the father of her children, because she sacrificed for her family, and she is the mother of the man's children.

 

Menopause is it. If a woman can't bear children, and she's divorced, no man will ever love her. It's over. Her children won't even love her, because her ex-husband is the one with the inheritance, and she doesn't have anything to offer her children.

 

Children with single moms grow up proud, lazy, materialistic, manipulative, with emotional problems, and they are always at a disadvantage compared with children from a mother and a father at home.

 

If one of you were a fly on the wall in a high school, you would see children make friends according to the marital status of their parents. That's how they group themselves.

 

The stigma of single motherhood is alive and well among high school students. Kids with married parents want nothing to do kids of single moms, because these 2 kinds of children are not compatible.

 

So divorce kids hang out with other divorce kids, and they pool their emotional pain into one big vat of suffering. No one wants to have anything to do with them, because they're a bummer'o'rama to be around.

 

Single mothers are too busy worrying about their own life fulfillment to pay any attention to their kids high school, and especially not who hangs out with who.

 

I had a lot to say. I hate seeing people destroy what little life they have left, or what little hope for their dreams to come true that they have. Life is only half over at 40. The majority of womens' lives are spent infertile. You can't waste it when you season of fertility comes.

 

:rolleyes: are you mental???

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Confused 71 - Very interesting perspective! It sounds like you used a time machine to fast forward 400 years to be able to get on LS today to share your views. A lot has happened over the past 400 years you know. For a start, children of divorce have become the norm rather than alienated oddity. Secondly, even the Muslim world where women's virginity is a fundamental pre-requisite to finding a suitable partner for life, many women play the field underground, whilst wearing the Hijab in some cases. I have known one many moons ago and I can say that the secrecy made it all the more exciting! After playing the field for a while, some resort to an operation to restore the hymen, so that the unsuspecting future husband can proudly say that he was the first to deflower her! Another assertion you made which seems starkly at odds with reality is that many women report that their first sexual encounter was not enjoyable, and some can not even remember who their first guy was. As to the submission to a lifelong servitude of a man, it would fulfill the fantasies of many men It is true that it speaks to the unconscious of many men to have an obedient, compliant, subserviant woman (instant hard on!), but many men would want to limit those differentials in power relations to the bedroom!

 

Anyway, it is always refreshing to hear different perspectives. It makes the world endlessly interesting!

 

Nomad1

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Sorry confused71 - that was meant for Fragileswan. I think it is a wind-up. Hey Fragileswan, fancy a life of servitude fo an Alpha male. Hey I could do with someone to sort out my one thousand and one socks!

 

Joke:)

 

Nomad1

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I just checked his other posts and they're even better! Amazing! Haven't been so absorbed in reading anything in a long time. I think his posts should be pinned!

 

FragileSwan! Thanks for the good read!

 

Oh! And IG! Sorry for the t/j!

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That was interesting.....

So what happens to those woman that come from an abusive H or a controlling H?

 

My G/F has told me I am the best thing that she has had in a long time, she was married 20 years......We do things she never got from her ex sexually & just daily stuff such as flowers, cards, going on a picnic, etc.....

 

What about those people that don't want kids anymore???

 

I do have to agree that when you divorce it isn't just a clean split, it is more like pulling apart a piece of meat....Like in my divorce care class they talk about this a lot & you will ALWAYS have part of that other person with you. It starts out as two separate people but you don't end that way after a divorce.

 

Just listen to people that have been divorced for a long time, they will still bring up the ex but I also don't believe that you can't have a happy life with the second person you marry down the road....I know lots of couples that are much more happier then they were in the first marriage.

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Intricategirl
Just listen to people that have been divorced for a long time, they will still bring up the ex but I also don't believe that you can't have a happy life with the second person you marry down the road....I know lots of couples that are much more happier then they were in the first marriage.

 

My generation especially. God, we do love our starter marriages.

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If you really think about it, everything in life, including life itself, has a beginning, a middle and an end. Life is like chapters in a book. The whole story is about you, but in different chapters different people make appearances, then subside in prominence either because they are no longer there or simply have receded to the background, eg. old friends, family for some people. Each chapter is to be embraced, but you have to actively write it. Don't just allow any character to gate crash onto your life stage! Make sure you audition with stringent criteria. There are no retakes and you can only write so many chapters....so quality has to be an over-riding factor in the selection of characters!

 

Nomad1

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Intricategirl -

 

You have self awareness, confidence , and a sense of humor.

Of course - sometimes your guard will fall, you will be shaken, there will be days you are discouraged. But the fact that you have the ability to be confident will be something that gets you through the tough stuff.

 

You don't have to carry any animosity or ill will toward your EX or OW because you know that will only hinder YOU.

 

You will be great. Call me, we'll go to lunch, and I'll buy you those shoes you liked. LOL.

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GorillaTheater
I read the whole post and discussion thread. I'm sorry everyone had to live through so much pain. I can feel the emotional bruises jumping off the posts. Most divorced women have a very difficult time in life. It's not something to be proud of.

 

Making a mistake in a husband, so bad that you wind up getting a divorce, speaks loudly of the woman who made that mistake. It's not like getting stitches, or having to get a car repaired.

 

No one ever recovers completely from a divorce, and least of all the women who say they have moved on. They're in denial, and so are the husbands who pour their pain into another woman.

 

Husbands do recover from divorce, because men are made to mate more than one woman. The virgin releases her blood sacrifice of innocence, as she is pierced, on her wedding night. Her bridegroom teaches her the pain of atonement, and she is psychologically, physically, biologically, and chemically bonded to that man for life. Etcetera, etcetera.

 

I think I know this guy. If he starts citing the research of Dr. Olga Uberstrachschten, chair of Brown University's Evolutionary Sociology department, I'll know for sure.

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Intricategirl
Intricategirl -

 

You have self awareness, confidence , and a sense of humor.

Of course - sometimes your guard will fall, you will be shaken, there will be days you are discouraged. But the fact that you have the ability to be confident will be something that gets you through the tough stuff.

 

You don't have to carry any animosity or ill will toward your EX or OW because you know that will only hinder YOU.

 

You will be great. Call me, we'll go to lunch, and I'll buy you those shoes you liked. LOL.

 

Marry me. Anyone who'll buy me shoes is my soulmate. :laugh::D:laugh::D

 

I AM fine. Sure, I'll have days that are craptastic. I married a horrible husband, but I seem to have a pretty decent ex. So, I'll figure it out as I go along. I mean, we're both in perfect agreement that it's over. We're also trying to make sure I've got what I need in place to succeed. And he's committed to helping me get it, even if it puts him at a short-term disadvantage. We're very honest with each other and I told him that I don't have to work and could probably make it a good ten years without having to work, just based on alimony and child support alone. So, he knows that if he helps me by watching the kids more, or making some concessions that allow me to bring home a bigger paycheck, I won't need to rely on him. In the future, when I meet someone else that I want to share my life with, I won't be thinking, "Hmm, I'm going to lose my alimony, so I need to wait X number of years before getting married." I'll be in a place where I don't need his money and can completely and fully move on.

 

I guess we're both just practical enough to know it's over and we need to take care of some final decisions. I think with a lot of couples, it takes two people to start the marriage and one to end it, so there's naturally bad blood. It's lopsided. With us, we're trying to figure out how we can both end it

 

Dan Savage has what he calls a "campsite rule" for those who are in relationships where there's a significant age difference. The rule is basically- leave it in better shape than you found it. Why can't that apply to every relationship though? I guess it's just not my style to hang onto it forever.

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Marry me. Anyone who'll buy me shoes is my soulmate. :laugh::D:laugh::D

 

WOW, that's all it takes, if I would have known that I could have bought you LOTS of shoes.......

 

Who wouldn't want a good looking woman that goes to the gym, likes sex :eek: and takes care of herself???????

 

WOW there is going to be one lucky guy out there down the road that's for sure!!!!;):love:

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Intricategirl
WOW, that's all it takes, if I would have known that I could have bought you LOTS of shoes.......

 

Who wouldn't want a good looking woman that goes to the gym, likes sex :eek: and takes care of herself???????

 

WOW there is going to be one lucky guy out there down the road that's for sure!!!!;):love:

 

ROFLMAO!!! What can I say? I'm easy, I guess. :laugh:

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FragileSwan
Confused 71 - Very interesting perspective! It sounds like you used a time machine to fast forward 400 years to be able to get on LS today to share your views. A lot has happened over the past 400 years you know.

 

Anyway, it is always refreshing to hear different perspectives. It makes the world endlessly interesting!

 

Nomad1

 

Truth has always been Truth. Truth never changes. Truth is now. Truth will always be Truth. What I write has been the case since the beginning of time. It hasn't changed recently, and it will never change. It will always be The Truth.

 

The fundamental desires of the heart remain fixed, regardless of the amount of sin people commit, and the amount of deceit people subject themselves to.

 

I challenge anyone to PROVE me wrong. Not saying Truth has changed, because it hasn't. Men still want to marry 21 year old virgins, regardless of whether or not the men have been divorced. Men do not want an experienced woman, unless the man taught her himself.

 

Women expect when they get a divorce that they are going to be desirable, like before they got married. But I'm telling you, a divorced man who wants to get remarried will start over with a virgin, not a divorced woman.

 

The man who wants to use a woman as a barren receptacle, cheating her out of the fruits of her womb, wants an experienced woman, willing to sterilize herself with drugs, because this man is no man. A real man wants to see and enjoy the fruit of his seed.

 

Children are the greatest gifts a woman could hope for. Children of single mothers commit suicide at 500 times the rate of children with married parents. Children who practice Roman Catholicism, as prescribed by Roman Catholic Doctrine, have zero suicide rate.

 

I know an older woman who found her son laying on the bedroom floor, when he was teenager, without a head, because he blew it off with a shotgun, and it was splattered against the wall.

 

That is no joke. It really happens. She had divorced her husband two years earlier. I know another even older woman, whose daughter got a divorce, and her four year old son found her hanging from the attic rafters in a makeshift noose.

 

Divorce causes suicide. If you look at any suicide victim, you will see divorce was somehow involved. And sometimes it skips a generation, so a grandchild will commit suicide.

 

When the virgin is pierced, and releases her blood sacrifice of innocence, Nature whispers soft engravings onto her heart, 'Until death you shall not part'.

 

By Natural Law, specifically The Law of Marriage, one of The Physical Laws of Nature, the marriage is severed only upon the death of one or both spouses.

 

This means, according to Nature Herself, that Nature will claim one human life if the husband is denied access to his wife's body, for his pleasure, and to reproduce his image; while the breath of life remains in both spouses.

 

This is because Nature said to the virgin, 'Until DEATH you shall not part. Nature cannot be made a liar, otherwise people could jump off cliffs and not fall.

 

The human death to atone for physical separation of spouses against the wishes of the husband, is supplied by the suicide of either the husband, or one of his male descendants.

 

Divorce is government sanctioned murder by occult sorcery, where court magicians, dressed in suits and ties, look with reverence and awe upon the holy documents they crafted; and uttering ancient Latin legalese to the gods of Freemasonry;

 

The leprechaun in robes creates a convincing illusion that the wife now now is able to usurp The God Ordained Authority of her husband over her;

 

As 1,000 souls of damned divorcees sing a chorus from hell, straight into the soul of the ex-wife-to-be; "Why be subservient dear, when you can rule here. Ah HaHa Ha.";

 

In the sequel to 'The Emperor's New Clothes', called 'Divorce Hearing'.

 

The leprechaun glides his tiny inky phallus, skillfully across the back page of the judgment, in an unholy sodomizing of the wife's mind, making her useless as a wife, and leaving the husband to either commit suicide, or be forced to commit the sin of abetting the rebellious wife in her wanton harlotry, by compulsory governmentally forced male financial rape, allowing the wife to plunder her husband's income, in the most illegitimate legal framework in existence, child support.

 

The man did abet his wanton harlot wife in her spree of sin. He is also guilty of that sin, and will burn in Hell for all eternity because of it.

 

Therefore, many husbands opt for suicide to prevent sin. But husbands don't need to commit suicide anymore, because they can give the suicide Nature requires, for a husband to be denied access to his wife's body, for his pleasure, and to reproduce his image; to the judge and wife's divorce lawyer.

 

The husband retains full authority over his marriage, civil divorce notwithstanding. He can opt to commit suicide himself, or he can give suicide to the magician and leprechaun who created the illusion his marriage had been severed.

 

If enough disgruntled husbands start giving suicide to the judge and lawyer, it will become illegal for women to file for divorce. I know people who have tried this, and it works.

 

All the sadness goes away, and the judge and lawyer commit suicide within one calendar year.

 

The husband can also lay claim to his wife before God The Almighty, like so: 'God, my wife has rebelled against The Your Ordained Authority of me over her. I want her back, so I pray she be impoverished, unable to financially survive without me. I'll do my part by not paying any support, but I need to be able to give suicide to any court official, or CSEA worker that would fetter my liberty due to my righteous behavior.

 

'I pray that if she will not allow me access to her body, for my pleasure, and to reproduce my image, that she have no man to love her; and be given slave labor, 24/7, until such time as she once again subjugates herself to my just authority, and allows me access to her body, for my pleasure, and to reproduce my image; or she goes sterile, and is useless to any man as a wife, whichever comes first.'

 

 

That's what happened to me. I can testify by personal experience that God will hear the prayer of the husband of the rebellious wife, and recognize the man's right to her. She will be given one of Asmodeus to love her. They love rebellious females, and will do anything to have a rebellious woman all to themselves, even driving away any interested males.

 

When the woman once again subjugates herself to her rightful husband, Asmodeus shrieks in terror, for they are of the jezebelian empire of darkness and evil, which cannot tolerate just masculine authority. Then the demon flees.

 

I've even seen Asmodeus afflict small children with chronic illness, just so a divorcee wouldn't be able to date, after a husband said the above prayer.

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So seeing as you have knowledge of the Truths, what does a W like me do?! I was my H's second wife... I was the 21 year old virgin.

H had lost his first W and child due to his adultery (five affairs). In our M he has done it again -- several more affairs.

Now, I am talking about divorce. He doesn't want a divorce from me -- he loves having me as his W! (he has had 8 OW... I must be very patient, huh?)

 

So, do you propose, just because I am his, and he took my virginity, that I put up with his abusive cheating ways in this M?

Our kids are in college.

He is 49

I am 44, and not sterile.

 

So -- what about my mom who was widowed at age 39? And her mom before that who was also widowed at age 39? BTW both of them were 21 year old Virgin brides. Neither ever took on another lover.

I am older than they were when they lost their H's... so if I divorce and never find a worthy man again, how bad can it be? Another 60 years without a man? :mad::mad: (my gran died ten days ago and she outlive her H 60 years and one day!). My mother still lives in her mid-seventies.

 

So, tell me, oh one with all the answers... what am I to do with my errant H?

I HAVE been obedient, I HAVE been the BEST wife I knew how to be for over two decades... and he agrees with this! Of course he wants me,.... but not enough to change his ways?!

What should I do then? Because I am seriously looking at Divorce as an option to remove myself from this crazy abuse.

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Find happiness and contentement in and within yourself ~ not others be they male or female!

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