I don't want to sound like a complainer, but...

[Trialbyfire]

TBF and SG, jesus. If either of you were my bosses and treated me the way you describe, I would file a complaint right away. If nothing else, it would waste some of your time. I got one of my former bosses demoted this way, so careful. Little compassion goes a long way - being a bully is not likely to get the most out of your staff.

I've never had a complaint filed on me, nvm any civil suits AND I've had the cream of the crop staff follow me from firm to firm. Something tells me you wouldn't have a job, if you worked for me. The probationary period would have ensured it.

[anne1707]

TBF and SG, jesus. If either of you were my bosses and treated me the way you describe, I would file a complaint right away. If nothing else, it would waste some of your time. I got one of my former bosses demoted this way, so careful. Little compassion goes a long way - being a bully is not likely to get the most out of your staff.

 

 

And I got one of my bosses fired for his bullying behaviour and then got his job

 

I am pleased to say that over the years in different jobs, I have always been described as a good boss by my teams. Someone who will support and encourage them yet be clear what is expected of them. Performance issues have occurred and have been successfully dealt with in a fair and reasonable manner.

 

I treat my team as equals in that they should be treated with respect and courtesy - I would certainly never snap some command at them and turn my heels as if on some power trip. I would not respect anyone who treated me like that so why should they respect that behaviour from me.

 

I also believe that so much time is spent at work that it must be enjoyable in a social way too. I will joke and chat with my team and they will reciprocate. I know it is not insubordination and that actually it is a reflection of how well they think of me. They know I am human (unlike some bosses ), they know I encourage and support them, they know I will stand up for them. However they also know when to just get their heads down and get on with the job.

[Ariadne]

"Please consider it one of your priorities. Thanks. :)"

 

And walked off.

 

If you ever said that to me, I'd never put a foot in that room again.

 

Not to clean it, not to anything.

[Trialbyfire]

If you ever said that to me, I'd never put a foot in that room again.

 

Not to clean it, not to anything.

Ariadne, straight up, you're not the type of employee I would have ever hired.

 

Overall, I hire go-getters, skilled people who won't bring drama into the workplace but are interested and dedicated to their jobs. I don't take crap during the probationary period and paper everything, during and after.

 

After someone has passed the probationary period, they understand their role in the company and know how far they can push the boundaries. There's a direct correlation between attitude, ability to do the work, ability to exceed expectations, and my patience level. I don't waste time with people who aren't into the job and expect they're not going to waste my time.

 

It's why I was stolen from firm to firm. It's also why other firms would try to steal my staff, since they were assets to the firm. Mediocre and lesser, was never good enough.

[Ariadne]

I hire go-getters, skilled people who won't bring drama into the workplace but are interested and dedicated to their jobs.

 

Yep. I'm nobody's slave.

[Trialbyfire]

Yep. I'm nobody's slave.

And there we go in a nutshell. The attitude that it's slavery to do the job you're getting paid to do. That's another reason why I never hired drama queens. Rational behaviour is key, in abilities to decision make when you're dealing in millions of dollars of other peoples' money or firm capital. Cool heads always prevail within the work place. Overly-sensitive individuals were never assets to the firm, usually causing more grief and work, for everyone around them.

 

While mistakes can happen, some mistakes can take down a firm, when you're handling the dollar figure that these staff members did. If one staff member makes a substantial mistake, conceptually, they have to be able to rely on the help of others, to try to get out of it.

[anne1707]

Overly-sensitive individuals were never assets to the firm, usually causing more grief and work, for everyone around them.

 

I am trying to understand how hard a line you take with your team TBF. Do you see people as being overly sensitive just because they are not like you? Are they overly sensitive because they want to be treated with respect and courtsey? Yes they are there to do a job but I can imagine mistakes being hidden from you because people are terrified to tell you.

[Trialbyfire]

I am trying to understand how hard a line you take with your team TBF. Do you see people as being overly sensitive just because they are not like you? Are they overly sensitive because they want to be treated with respect and courtsey? Yes they are there to do a job but I can imagine mistakes being hidden from you because people are terrified to tell you.

Within some of the divisions that I used to run, many were deadline sensitive. If staff missed deadlines, this was unacceptable behaviour, since 99% of the time, attempting to mitigate the missed deadline, cost the company...big time.

 

People need to be able to handle stress and pressure within the job. What I've found with overly-sensitive individuals, is that they couldn't take the heat from the job, when things got tough, like pending deadlines, etc.

 

As for mistakes being hidden, you can't hide mistakes. They all come out through internal, external audits and through supervisors and lower management, covering for them, when they're on vacation or sick.

 

If someone of supervisory or lower management, attempted to cover for them, that person was ultimately held accountable for the issues. No one ever covered for anyone.

[anne1707]

As for mistakes being hidden, you can't hide mistakes. They all come out through internal, external audits and through supervisors and lower management, covering for them, when they're on vacation or sick.

.

 

 

But I would rather know of mistakes when they happen. Not six months down the line. Plus they do not always come out - Arthur Andersons comes to mind for a start.

[Trialbyfire]

But I would rather know of mistakes when they happen. Not six months down the line. Plus they do not always come out - Arthur Andersons comes to mind for a start.

Six months down the line? What kind of incompetent firm could hide something, for this length of time?

 

As for AA, that's a whole 'nother ballgame. We're talking apples to oranges when you have top down corruption.

[anne1707]

Six months down the line? What kind of incompetent firm could hide something, for this length of time?

 

I am talking about mistakes made by individuals (whether competency issue or not). Mistakes can be hidden. I know of someone who tried to do this - he actually got caught out with the mistakes he made trying to hide it. If he had just admitted to the original mistake when it happened, he would still have his job. I just think that your "zero tolerance" attitude may make people hide honest mistakes.

[Trialbyfire]

I am talking about mistakes made by individuals (whether competency issue or not). Mistakes can be hidden. I know of someone who tried to do this - he actually got caught out with the mistakes he made trying to hide it. If he had just admitted to the original mistake when it happened, he would still have his job. I just think that your "zero tolerance" attitude may make people hide honest mistakes.

Where did I say I had zero tolerance? I have zero tolerance for probationary staff with piss poor attitudes and a lack of work ethic.

 

As for honest mistakes being hidden, it's near impossible, based on the structure I and trusted management built, with the input of internal and external audit and assorted regulatory bodies. I can't convince you of this since my industry isn't your expertise. People learned that the sooner they brought the mistake to my attention, the less costly it would be, from all aspects.

[anne1707]

Where did I say I had zero tolerance? I have zero tolerance for probationary staff with piss poor attitudes and a lack of work ethic.

 

As for honest mistakes being hidden, it's near impossible, based on the structure I and trusted management built, with the input of internal and external audit and assorted regulatory bodies. I can't convince you of this since my industry isn't your expertise. People learned that the sooner they brought the mistake to my attention, the less costly it would be, from all aspects.

 

 

TBF

 

I work in one of the most highly regulated sectors in the UK. I work with both internal and external auditors plus several regulatory bodies who can come and inspect with minimal/no notice. This sector is my area of expertise and I know what people have tried to get away with within this regulatory regime (though not within any of the companies I have worked in). Unfortunately human nature is such that these things will happen and I doubt that there is a 100% foolproof system for detection of all that goes on - in any organisation, including yours.

 

All that can be done is to ensure that appropriate systems and controls are in place and create a spirit of openness whereby people can admit when they have got it wrong and are then subject to any processes in place to deal with that, eg disciplinary, training etc - whether they are a long-standing employee or someone new on a probationary period.

[Trialbyfire]

TBF

 

I work in one of the most highly regulated sectors in the UK. I work with both internal and external auditors plus several regulatory bodies who can come and inspect with minimal/no notice. This sector is my area of expertise and I know what people have tried to get away with within this regulatory regime (though not within any of the companies I have worked in). Unfortunately human nature is such that these things will happen and I doubt that there is a 100% foolproof system for detection of all that goes on - in any organisation, including yours.

 

All that can be done is to ensure that appropriate systems and controls are in place and create a spirit of openness whereby people can admit when they have got it wrong and are then subject to any processes in place to deal with that, eg disciplinary, training etc - whether they are a long-standing employee or someone new on a probationary period.

Never said it was foolproof, just said it was near impossible. No system is perfect. It's pretty assumptive of you to state you understand my industry or how my personal corporate structure was set up without any due knowledge.

 

I can also draw the conclusion that too many mistakes happen within your realm of responsibility, since you don't have a firm grasp about what goes on within that area, as people aren't held accountable for their actions.

 

As for disciplinary action, that's as easy as 1, 2, 3. Employees who excelled at their jobs were well-compensated, promoted and supported. Employees who didn't meet minimum standards of performance or were only mediocre, particularly with attitudes, were released to seek greener pastures, during the probationary period.

 

Each time the company invests in the training of staff, the longer you keep incompetence, the more costly it is to the firm. That's called a management style difference. I was well compensated for my efforts, by building an elite work force who had pride in themselves and their jobs, and who I can honestly say, I was very proud of them, for their competency and professionalism, regardless of being in one of the top five stressful industries.

[anne1707]

Never said it was foolproof, just said it was near impossible. No system is perfect. It's pretty assumptive of you to state you understand my industry or how my personal corporate structure was set up without any due knowledge.

 

I never said I understood your industry/corporate structure - I said I doubt that even in your organisation that it is 100% foolproof and you do seem to be agreeing iwth me so I don't know what your problem is here.

 

 

I can also draw the conclusion that too many mistakes happen within your realm of responsibility, since you don't have a firm grasp about what goes on within that area, as people aren't held accountable for their actions.

 

Now you are the one making assumptions about my organisation. Mistakes rarely happen and I have a very firm grasp of what is going on in all departments but especially mine. As for people not being held accountable - that is complete nonsense. In my post I referred to disciplinary action if necessary.

 

 

Employees who didn't meet minimum standards of performance or were only mediocre, particularly with attitudes, were released to seek greener pastures, during the probationary period.

 

I obviously do a better job than you when it comes to the recruitment and selection of staff because I have never employed someone that I had to release during their probationary period. All my team perform well.

 

 

Each time the company invests in the training of staff, the longer you keep incompetence, the more costly it is to the firm. That's called a management style difference.

 

 

Sometimes a bit of training is all that is needed to deal with a competency issue. It can be a lot cheaper than going through the process of firing someone and then having to recruit someone else. Yes, it is definitely a management style difference.

 

 

I was well compensated for my efforts, by building an elite work force who had pride in themselves and their jobs, and who I can honestly say, I was very proud of them, for their competency and professionalism, regardless of being in one of the top five stressful industries.

 

I too am well compensated for my efforts, just as I ensure my team is. A few years ago, there was a survey of most stressful jobs in the UK and my sector was in there at number one.

 

 

TBF - your management style and mine are different. We are never going to agree on this. Mine works for me and yours works for you. I am not making assumptions about your sector so please don't make assumptions about mine.

[Trialbyfire]

TBF - your management style and mine are different. We are never going to agree on this. Mine works for me and yours works for you. I am not making assumptions about your sector so please don't make assumptions about mine.

Go back through this thread anne. Who was the first one to criticize whom? If you'd given your advice, as quankanne did, we wouldn't have had this conversation. As it stands, you were the first one to attempt to negate my advice with a direct reference to me. If this is a reflection of the way you interact in the office place, it's small wonder you've haven't hit EVP or partner status, at your age.

[anne1707]

If this is a reflection of the way you interact in the office place, it's small wonder you've haven't hit EVP or partner status, at your age.

 

 

Making assumptions again I see. You don't know any of this or even if it is relevant to what I do.

 

 

 

And I did offer advice which included not treating people the way you suggested because I think it is antagonistic (IMO).

[Trialbyfire]

Making assumptions again I see. You don't know any of this or even if it is relevant to what I do.

Competency/success in job, is a reflection of quality of advice given. It's like a junior staff member giving advice to the owner of a successful, high growth business, of how to manage their staff.

[anne1707]

Competency/success in job, is a reflection of quality of advice given. It's like a junior staff member giving advice to the owner of a successful, high growth business, of how to manage their staff.

 

 

TBF - I don't need to post on LS how successful my career is. You have no idea of what you are talking about when you try to imply how well/badly you think I am doing. I suggest you give up on this now

[Trialbyfire]

redfathom, do you have any KPI statistics from previous employees to gauge productivity, thus competency?

 

This will greatly improve your ability to understand not only the speed in which your staff work but also if more automation is necessary.

 

It will not gauge quality of work, whereby that will be reflected in output and error ratio.

 

Set a bar for each new employee. When they know what standards you expect from them, the cream of the crop will excel, with little to no work on your part. The ones who continue to drag on your time and require continuous stroking, will be the ones who aren't cost effective.

[Okfine]

A person who works with power and control will only ever be a manager. A person who wants to help people become better, more proficient and helps them find meaning in their work, is a leader.

 

If you demand respect, you will only ever be a manager. If you give respect knowing deep down that you get what you give, then you are a leader and you will go a lot further to achieve your goals.

 

Leadership is an attitude, management is a position. Anyone can get a position of middle management as an HR representative, not everyone can be in a position of true leadership. Redfathom you decide which one you want to be. Personally, I would not take advice from HR managers, they are talentless workers that ride the coat tails of the true leaders and innovators in the business word and they base their work on instilling fears in employees. A successful team is a team that aims for the same results, not on that acts out of fear. I learned this from some of the best leaders in my industry.

 

If you want to make this employee come around you have to use your tact and you need to offer her a positive environment where she can learn to be on your level and where she will also want to respect what you do and who you are, all on her own. You want her looking up to you, not fearing you. That is the quickest way to get someone on your team.

 

If you are banking on a three month probationary period to dismiss an employee, you have failed at your job as an HR manger. Did you hire this woman Redfathom?

[Okfine]

Sorry I made a double post.

 

I would like to also add that I was in a similar situation as yourself a few years ago. I had to train someone in a position that would ultimately impact my role. She was very junior and sort of difficult at first because I could tell her heart was not in the role she was there using it as a stepping stone for other positions in the department. Regardless, I took three very dedicated weeks out of my schedule to devote to the full training of this individual. At times it was frustrating because I could see how insecure in making decisions she was, also she had a tendency to be complacent and to rely on my business acumen when making tough calls. I noticed that she was not as quick to pick things up during training which meant more of my time devoted to her and less time to my own work which was piling up. Slowly I started to ween her off relying on me and I would remind her that she knew the answers to her problems and eventually she would make her own calls. It was trying for me at time but knew that all the time I devoted today would ultimately favour me in tomorrow.

 

So it happened. Not only did I secure a strong bond with this employee in terms of trust and a mutually beneficial working relationship but her superior and the head of the department who was also my manger thanked me personally for the exemplary job I had done in bringing this staff member up to speed. Her progress ultimately reflected on my abilities and I got a promotion 6 months later.

[You'reasian]

TBF - I don't need to post on LS how successful my career is. You have no idea of what you are talking about when you try to imply how well/badly you think I am doing. I suggest you give up on this now

 

Well done, anne1707.

 

You sound like a rock solid leader.

[BlueEyedGirl]

TBF, under the right conditions I perform very well and an am very competent. Boss with the wrong attitude such as yours will only bring the worst in me. I need to be treated with respect and compassion. With the right boss, someone such as Annie I can go far. I wonder how many of the staff that you have let go is actually more talented than the ones you keep. Their bad attitude can be a response to yours, and it could have blossomed under the right circumstances.

 

Being a mid level HR management is not that much of an accomplishment for your age. Not to mention that HR is where talentless people with a mean strak and ice running through their veins go. So I guess you didn't have that many options.

 

Anne will go far, you won't.

[Trialbyfire]

I don't enable mediocrity or less. I support go-getters and people who can get the job done with professionalism and competency.

 

There are two types of employees I used to hire. Ones that needed to be challenged to a reasonable level and ones that needed the impossible challenge. They fully understood that they were the brightest and the best. That's part of the reason why excellent staff from other firms used to come knocking at the door.

 

You can hone steel. You can't hone deadwood.

 

Come on BEG. Based on your own admission, in another thread, you haven't done a stitch of work in months. Let me guess. It's your boss' fault that you're in fatal attraction mode, in an unrequited scenario.