Not enough esx in marriage..... Here we go again....

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I've read through most of these posts and frankly could not help becoming physically nauseated by it all.

 

I am glad that I never had the misfortune of reading this prior to getting married ... because I would have run.

 

Look fellas, once upon a time you have a woman who desired you. Then, seemingly magically, she no longer does. So, you buy her a gift, do chores, and say... okay baby let's go. Well, you haven't even figured out why she doesn't want to engage in SEX or LOVEMAKING or what on God's green earth you did to turn her off in the first place.

 

Yes, guys. It does work that way. Women get turned off and it does not necessarily mean there is no sexual desire. Just not, perhaps, for the person who she is turned off to. What I fail to understand is why there exists this Neanderthal concept concerning sex. A/K/A, I married her now she has to put out to satisfy me. That sounds as barbaric as a dude on a date who has bought dinner expecting sexual favors. Generally, this fella is the guy who 'gets' the least action. If you doubt this... ask any single girl.

 

And, no, I don't want to hear any more moronic crap about how sex is part of the deal. Go get a hooker. With sick attitudes like you've portrayed who the hell would want to?

 

There is some great 'mystery' concerning women and their sexual desire. Well, let me share with you a tidbit... There is a place you can touch a woman that will drive her wild with desire.

 

And, fellas, that is her heart.

 

God how cliched can you get.... This is such an old story and continuing to hear what neanderthals we are for being there, doing the little things (and big), being attentive loving supportive and so on......

 

Stop reading those Harlequin Romances or watching the newest Hollywood Romcom (how's that for cliched?), because real life is not that.

 

Many of these wives/spouses do love their spouses, enjoy sex when they do have it, however sex is the furthest thing from their mind, and definitely not a priority. In addition some women have the unrealistic view of this "Knight in Shining Armour" who will drive them wild with desire and sweep them off their feet and that certainly is not dad doing the dishes or coming home from their child's baseball/basketball game.

 

Sorry real life is seldom like that.

[Gamine]

God how cliched can you get.... This is such an old story and continuing to hear what neanderthals we are for being there, doing the little things (and big), being attentive loving supportive and so on......

 

Stop reading those Harlequin Romances or watching the newest Hollywood Romcom (how's that for cliched?), because real life is not that.

 

Many of these wives/spouses do love their spouses, enjoy sex when they do have it, however sex is the furthest thing from their mind, and definitely not a priority. In addition some women have the unrealistic view of this "Knight in Shining Armour" who will drive them wild with desire and sweep them off their feet and that certainly is not dad doing the dishes or coming home from their child's baseball/basketball game.

 

Sorry real life is seldom like that.

 

 

Talk about cliches? I've never read a Harlequin novel. Get over it.

 

You want to know what is going inside of women but when you get the 'dish' you balk at it. That is about as Neanderthal as it gets.

 

If you view women as a bunch of idiots guided by make believe romantic ideals then you are missing the point entirely. Don't ask if you don't want the answer.

 

The fact is that the only posts you respond to favorably are by other men complaining about being blown off by their wives and one who happens to be a call girl.

 

The truth, my friend, is the truth. You are looking up at a blue sky declaring that it is dark and rainy and I'm here to say that you have deluded yourself.

 

If you want to piss women off continue being an abusive idiot. Do not even attempt to disrespect me as a woman by degrading me into a daydreaming idiot.

 

Would you rather I posted how all women are so off base and should be grateful for every advance? Come on. You are the one who has perhaps been jaded by reading too many 'gentleman's magazines' or porn sites and have totally lost touch with what a real woman is.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Talk about cliches? I've never read a Harlequin novel. Get over it.

 

You want to know what is going inside of women but when you get the 'dish' you balk at it. That is about as Neanderthal as it gets.

 

If you view women as a bunch of idiots guided by make believe romantic ideals then you are missing the point entirely. Don't ask if you don't want the answer.

 

The fact is that the only posts you respond to favorably are by other men complaining about being blown off by their wives and one who happens to be a call girl.

 

The truth, my friend, is the truth. You are looking up at a blue sky declaring that it is dark and rainy and I'm here to say that you have deluded yourself.

 

If you want to piss women off continue being an abusive idiot. Do not even attempt to disrespect me as a woman by degrading me into a daydreaming idiot.

 

Would you rather I posted how all women are so off base and should be grateful for every advance? Come on. You are the one who has perhaps been jaded by reading too many 'gentleman's magazines' or porn sites and have totally lost touch with what a real woman is.

 

 

Which call girl are we talking about? I respond to a number of posts....

 

If you read posts from men in marriages where this is an issue, they are looking for answers, when there spouse still professes their love for them, sex works when it happens, which is more and more infrequent.

 

I have stated and am honest that I do have a a checklist, and I think most men do. Thus when everything is good, i have checked off that list and sex does not happen and usually due to an old excuse (i.e. too tired, stressed, not thinking about it) yes we are pissed and lost. We are not talking about setting aside 4 hours for it....

 

Look in my case, to be honest, we have been together over 20 years, have a very good relationship, very open and want to be together. Both look relatively the same as we did when we met. Weight the same, stay in shape to varying degrees, less hair on my part:rolleyes:, finances are fine, no infedelity, E/A, P/A, lucky that families health is fine..... Sex however is always an issue (not huge, but there).

 

I've posted with others in the same situation and we have bonded. The sad reality though is in almost every case there is no resolution.

 

So sorry Gamine when you give the cliche "Heart" comment, at least in my case it carries no weight.... And to call me a neanderthal is incredibly insulting.....

 

Have you ever read Dan Savage???? Hilarious and brutally frank advise columnist (The Stranger). He does say and I do agree that yes when you are married there is an obligation to have sex.....

 

Here is the post from Dan Savage. Yes maybe too much extreme sex questions, but certainly fresh interesting takes. Found this one open for discussion.....

 

 

 

I hate to disagree, Dan, but you missed the mark when you wrote this: "When we marry, we're signing up to **** someone at least semiregularly for decades. Not interested in ****ing? Don't marry."

Dan, people marry for many, many reasons. Sex is only one of them, and sometimes it isn't even high on the list—or on the list at all. Family, friendship, stability, love, someone to grow old with, and on and on. Your surprisingly narrow description of what marriage means needs some rethinking.

 

 

Thanks for your work,

Cacilda Jethá, MD

 

 

 

 

Answer/Response:

 

 

I'm willing to concede that I left an important subordinate clause out of the sentence that riled you, CJ: "When we marry, we're signing up to **** someone at least semiregularly for decades, among other things..."

Marriage can be about all the things you list, but so long as sexual exclusivity is presumed to be a part of marriage—a defining part, according to the right-wingers—spouses have a right to expect sexual activity within their marriages. People who are interested in marriage but not sex—people whose lists only include family, friendship, stability, love, someone to grow old with, and on and on, but not sex—need to inform their prospective spouses of their disinterest in sex before marrying, not after.

As I've said a million times: If you don't think that sex is what marriage is all about, mostly about, or even partly about, if sex is something you can live without, that's grand. But you need to marry someone who feels the same way or inform your betrothed of your disinterest in advance. And if you lose interest in sex after you marry, but want your partner to stick around for the family and stability and friendship, I'll let you in on a little secret: The spouse is likelier to stick around if you give the spouse permission to get his or her sexual needs met elsewhere.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who aren't interested in sex—who consider sex to be trivial and unimportant—nevertheless deny their frustrated partners permission to do this trivial, unimportant thing with others.

[Gamine]

If you want to know what is or isn't going on inside of a woman ask a woman. Once again, Dan Savage is a man and not a woman so you are, necessarily receiving a man's point of view. Which, from what I am gathering is more of a perspective of contractual performance than anything that carries any meaning or potential for true happiness between a man and a woman.

 

All men complaining about a disinterested spouse can all stand in agreement crying out that the marriage contract constitutes an obligation to service one another sexually.

 

How's that working for you?

 

You can bang your fists and scream up to the high heavens until you exhaust yourself. And, you can all feel justified. Or, you can get rid of your checklists and get real. You can begin by getting real that demanding anything... making anyone believe that you have your foot on the back of their neck waving a contract that entitles you to redeem xyz will not make for a happy marriage. Period.

 

You state that you and others have 'your' checklist and when you've completed it you think you are now entitled to redeem your coupon and/or receive disheartened sexual servicing.

 

Well, you can have that.

 

Or you can have what you really want... to be desired by her. That is possible but may require that you give up your concept of entitlement and your manly man checklists.

 

Dan Savage doesn't really respond to how or why a woman who starts off 'hot' for her spouse turns cold. And, perhaps, what the man has done to turn her off. Address that and you have the secret to obtaining more pleasure from a woman who desires you than you can possibly imagine.

 

For as many men who complain about not having enough sex there are women complaining about the very same thing. I cannot help but wonder if interviewed separately how each would respond.

 

I read an article written by a sex therapist. He was working with a couple. The man said that his wife was asexual. Totally not a sexual creature, didn't care about having sex, yadda yadda yadda.

 

He pulled the wife aside and interviewed her. Turns out that couldn't be further fromo the truth. In fact prior to marriage she was a Grateful Dead groupie and was quite promiscuous. And further... that she was still very hot. But, that her husband's rolling over with a tap on the shoulder, or perhaps his version of the man's 'checklist' wore on her over the years. Result? Turned off.

 

Find what has been done to turn her off and you will find the key to entering back into the kingdom of fulfillment.

 

Give up the checklist men have mutually agreed upon as being 'the' way. If it isn't working it is bogus.

 

If you care about the women in your lives, gentlemen, you will care about the woman in your life.

 

And yes, it lies through her heart. In fact, many women to cheat do so because their spouse is not touching them emotionally. Like it or not, that's the truth. You can take it or leave it. But I hope that if it is your goal to have a truly sexually gratifying relationship with a woman you will at least consider being more open to hearing from a woman rather than validating the male concept.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Dan Savage is a man, thus he does not know.... Thanks for clearing that up. Actually Dan is a gay (calls himself a faggot) man in a marriage with a child. He says that part of his "contract" with his spouse is sex on a semi-regular basis.

 

But thanks for discounting his and all men's opinions, because afterall we are men. I appreciate you not calling us neanderthals in your above post.

[Gamine]

You can be right, or you can have what you want. Which is more important to you?

 

Perhaps when men become tired of hugging their pillow at night instead of their woman they might rethink their strategies.

[soserious1]

What gets me about all of this is the fact that if a lower drive spouse agrees to schedule sex and follows thru with it, that's still not good enough. I think one can reasonably ask a lower desire partner to compromise, to schedule sex and to agree to alternatives such as oral to help meet your needs.. but to then get mad because she isn't begging for it and isn't as passionate as you are just isn't going to work out.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

What gets me about all of this is the fact that if a lower drive spouse agrees to schedule sex and follows thru with it, that's still not good enough. I think one can reasonably ask a lower desire partner to compromise, to schedule sex and to agree to alternatives such as oral to help meet your needs.. but to then get mad because she isn't begging for it and isn't as passionate as you are just isn't going to work out.

 

 

I appreciate the comments soserious and am truly sad and feel bad reading some of your prior posts and an lousy H. Hope you aren't offended by those comments.

 

Frankly I don't have the answer. What does frustrate me is not being to understand that if both parties enjoy sex, and that to me means an orgasm, why not more often.

 

Also what is norm, or too much and too little? As I have stated I think generally those posting on LS have too much and too good sex . When someone posts saying they are not having enough, I want to know a number. I am honest and think 2X's a week is not asking for too much (a week off for period if you want).... That is me and being honest....

[scrunchy]

How do you agree with Scrunchy???? Time to stop helping, take the bull by the horns and demand sex?

 

I think people should read this post, as I am convinced this is more likely the case....

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t189616/

 

 

 

Uh, I never said anything about demanding sex! In fact if you read correctly, I encouraged the opposite... afterall, your wife is not your slave.. but if that's the only concept you have concluded that might work after reading my post, you need a new outlook on things and better comprehension skills- try some creativity for a change if you can manage that much.

[scrunchy]

Good for you...... Okay so again the checklist.....

 

Chores

Dishes

Children's activities

Presents

Love notes

Massages

Greet with Wine

Rub Feet

Communicate

Attentive

Stud in bed

Orgasms

 

 

Everyone is different..... There is no magic pill. I was again going back to why I did the OP and the sadness of some who have posted. Giotto, I empathize with you and understand where many make compromises or "settle".

 

I also know that counseling often does not help, and that the fire is not as strong after 5/10/15/20+ years.....

 

I was just bothered by someone telling me (us) that doing chores, alleviating the work/stress many women feel was meritless....

 

 

That's tough luck that your feelings were hurt, but it may possibly be the case. And if you cannot even face the truth in your marriage because it upsets you, good luck in EVER establishing a meaningful relationship or making changes for the better. I've got some better advice... stay in denial AND quit asking for others' advice if you can't handle the responses.

I don't have time for babies. Go on and create more useless threads berating others on here who YOU WERE LUCKY to have read advice from- afterall, everyone here donates their time and thoughts for people to try to help out- but idiots like you deserve to stay in the dark.

 

You are obviously not looking for help, but just a soapbox in which to verbally beat on your wife and validation from others for being such a great husband cause you managed to do some chores! GL WITH THAT!

 

P.S< Nice to know you did all of that for sex = meaningless.

 

Meritless?

If you think you deserve a reward and badges of honor for being a husband and father, you better off divorce and remain a bachelor cause you are acting like a child. I bet your wife's list is triple that. GROW UP!

 

My best guess now is that your wife is not attracted to babies. She wants a man! ACT LIKE ONE!

[soserious1]

God how cliched can you get.... This is such an old story and continuing to hear what neanderthals we are for being there, doing the little things (and big), being attentive loving supportive and so on......

 

Stop reading those Harlequin Romances or watching the newest Hollywood Romcom (how's that for cliched?), because real life is not that.

 

Many of these wives/spouses do love their spouses, enjoy sex when they do have it, however sex is the furthest thing from their mind, and definitely not a priority. In addition some women have the unrealistic view of this "Knight in Shining Armour" who will drive them wild with desire and sweep them off their feet and that certainly is not dad doing the dishes or coming home from their child's baseball/basketball game.

 

Sorry real life is seldom like that.

 

 

and neither is real life like porn, with your wife, pierced and shorn crawling on her hands and knees begging you to do her hard anally or suggesting a relaxing evening having a threesome with her best friend. While some women most certainly have unrealistic views of how romance and sex work within a marriage, so do quite a few men.

[giotto]

 

And, fellas, that is her heart.

 

yes, but, what about our penis?

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I really am growing tired from these attacks on me for being honest. Some of the females jumping in seem to miss what I say, often because I am being brutally honest and trying to instill some simple insight to our thoughts and feelings.

 

In the post above Giotta says penis, tongue in cheek, and there are plenty of women (and some men) who don't have enough sex with their partners and profess their love for that partner, and actually enjoy sex when it happens. So as I say being as blunt as possible:

 

"If one shows their love with an expensive gift, doing the dishes/chores so the other spouse can relax, give a massage, cancel a night out to stay with their spouse..... how about sex in return? "

 

I posted what Dan Savage wrote in his column and had Gamine slough it off as "Well it was written by a man".

 

I again ask you review the following thread, which sounds all too familiar and give me an answer as you know better then us;).

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t189616/

 

Scrunchy wrote "to be a man, and forget these little displays of affection, which is what doing dishes are in our mind, be a little more aloof and stand up for yourself (yes I am paraphrasing)" and maybe you will be viewed differently.

 

I hereby wave the white flag, as you women have again shown me what a neanderthal me and many men are to post such pathetic things as being upset that one's sex lives are falling short of expectations.

[Mr. Lucky]

I really am growing tired from these attacks on me for being honest.

I agree that the attacks are out of hand, but that's just the nature of public forums like this. As the OP, it's up to you separate the wheat from the chaff and take what you will from the responses.

 

I also think that you have identified a problem that affects many men, some of whom are honest enough to post here. My only feedback is this - even though your premise is valid and both partners have a responsibility to nurture and support the sexual relationship, just being "right" won't get you more sex. Unless you understand the underlying dynamic going on in your marriage, which might be anything from a power struggle to undisclosed past issues, things aren't going to change. You'll get plenty of "attaboy's" from your fellow sufferers but I don't believe that will get you the connection you want. Simply put, you're going to have to deal with your wife on her terms. Figure out what's important to her - and it's not clean dishes - and address it. Or continue as is...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I agree that the attacks are out of hand, but that's just the nature of public forums like this. As the OP, it's up to you separate the wheat from the chaff and take what you will from the responses.

 

I also think that you have identified a problem that affects many men, some of whom are honest enough to post here. My only feedback is this - even though your premise is valid and both partners have a responsibility to nurture and support the sexual relationship, just being "right" won't get you more sex. Unless you understand the underlying dynamic going on in your marriage, which might be anything from a power struggle to undisclosed past issues, things aren't going to change. You'll get plenty of "attaboy's" from your fellow sufferers but I don't believe that will get you the connection you want. Simply put, you're going to have to deal with your wife on her terms. Figure out what's important to her - and it's not clean dishes - and address it. Or continue as is...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

Thanks for the words Mr. Lucky. If you have read my posts (I know you have), I don't have a serious problem and indeed have a surprisingly good marriage. I however do like to post my views and ideas, which I find are taken as a red cape to a bull (females), who find they need to attack a relationship they know nothing about. Dishes are only a used as a jumping point, because it is so inane.

[angie2443]

I think the reason you are getting so many angry replies is that you used what I would call a harsh start up. I don't know if you just wanted to vent or you really wanted to understand a problem that is commen to many marriages. If all you want to do is vent, then you should expect some people to be offended and become defensive. If you truely want to understand what is going on in many of these marriages, you're going to have to take all view points into consideration.

 

My advice, if you really want to understand why some marriages become sexless, is to start off your threads/posts in a more gentle. Don't accuse, don't complain, don't generalize. State your concern/question in a respectful way and the replies you'll recieve are bound to be nicer and more helpful.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I think the reason you are getting so many angry replies is that you used what I would call a harsh start up. I don't know if you just wanted to vent or you really wanted to understand a problem that is commen to many marriages. If all you want to do is vent, then you should expect some people to be offended and become defensive. If you truely want to understand what is going on in many of these marriages, you're going to have to take all view points into consideration.

 

My advice, if you really want to understand why some marriages become sexless, is to start off your threads/posts in a more gentle. Don't accuse, don't complain, don't generalize. State your concern/question in a respectful way and the replies you'll recieve are bound to be nicer and more helpful.

 

Sorry, but below is the original post where I was having some fun with LS posters and the amount of sex some are having and pointed to some sad threads that show how lost many men are....

 

OP

 

There are two threads, one a new one titled "Wife will not accept advances" and an older one "Everything good.....except the sex".

 

LS posters I swear generally have more sex then is normal.... I read so many posts about the quantity, length of sexual encounters, # of orgasms and such that I find it incredulous.... I look around and frankly don't see too much sex, but here is a different story.

 

So back to my post, below I read scrunchy's reply to the "Everything good.... except the sex" post and wanted to pull my hair out. It is exactly this type of post that makes you want to throw your hands up and give up.... See below for her post and my response....

 

Hope others are as offended by her post and some can answer what the hell we can do to get some from our spouses and all I am looking for is 2X's a week (not daily and twice on weekends, as others on LS are having:rolleyes:)....

 

 

 

Originally Posted by scrunchy http://www.loveshack.org/forums/imag...s/viewpost.gif

Maybe that's the problem. These men are feminizing themselves too much and are too available to their wives. All of that can be much more of a turn-off than a turn-on. Sure, I would love my hypothetical hubby to do all the work around the house and treat me like a queen, but that doesn't mean it would automatically make me sexually attracted to him! Go out more often and stop putting on the apron to cook would be my suggestion.

Humans want what they can't get or what is hard to attain. I wouldn't put myself on a silver platter to them and then on top of that, do all the housework. You might get farther doing the opposite.

 

Your wives were putting out more often BEFORE they were married - before they had you in the bag. Now that you are completely available to them and tied down to ONLY them, they may lose some of their libido. Why? Cause it's no longer needed. They needed it to land you but that task is accomplished so now it's onto child-rearing. When they feel the hunt is still on, then that sexual energy may come back. What changed before and after marriage? Sounds like you fellas have turned into half-housewife and look how far that has gotten you?

 

Am I going to get sexually excited by my husband doing the vacuuming? I would be very pleased for sure, yes. But come on!! I mean would you get turned on if your wife helped you fix the car if you were a mechanic? "WOW you helped me put in a new engine!" Now afterward she looks like a greased up dirty man, clothes torn, hairy raspy and straggly, and you go "LETS HAVE SEX NOW". Possibly maybe, but I'm not so sure!

 

I think it's important for both sexes to maintain their sexuality. Especially if a man is the breadwinner, why should he be working long shifts and then be expected to take care of the household? The least a sahm could do is keep the house in order. I would definitely leave most of the cleaning to the wife. Cooking is one thing but trying to spic and span the house is way too feminizing for a male. I'm sorry but it is. How do you expect a woman to be attracted when you grow female characteristics yourself. "I DO THE DISHES, SO HAVE SEX WITH ME!" Blah... B O R I N G... THANKS>> I WONT NAG YOU NOW HUNNY, BUT HELL, I WONT HAVE SEX WITH YA EITHER> GN! or ALRIGHT, YOU CLEANED THE COUNTERS< ILL GIVE YOU THE OBLIGATORY QUICKIE! THEN SHUT UP AND GET TO BED! GN!

 

Sometimes being too attentive is no good either. It feels the same way as one would feel as if they have a stalker or are someone else's obsession- first instinct is to run. Less attention, less availability, less womanly traits and more of the man you were before marriage.

I wish I knew if anything has changed, I was involved since day 1 with an all too typical problem.

 

 

 

Now for the above post. Bull.... This is what many males have to put up with way too much. We don't pull our weight, we are not affectionate enough, we aren't romantic enough, we can't read signals.

 

How many times do we hear how much work the wife does and that she is exhausted and then when we help, carry more then our share and we expect to be recognized and yes rewarded (because the wife has had that burden lifted) do we then read this crap above.

 

There is no winning....

 

Back to the present

 

I found scrunchy's post sad and perplexing. I don't think she is married with kids, so does not appreciate some of the expectations us men feel. Do we think it is sexy to do the cleaning, kitchen duties, vacuuming? Hell no. Do we consider it important in frankly to help set the mood, make our spouse less stressed/harried/bothered? Yes we do, from what our spouse has told us in different ways.

 

Are we lost when scrunchy mentions that since the woman has bagged you, she doesn't have to "put out" if she doesn't want to, and that you becoming a half housewife doesn't turn her on? Yep, because they often tell us they appreciate it.

 

Trust me, we have asked our spouses what we can do and are not given a road map, usually a shrug of the shoulder and "I don't know why", so we try to make their lives easier in hopes that it works and might provide a spark. Same with roses, gifts, dinner out, engaging conversation, joining them in their interests, trips......

 

Was I nasty in the OP, no I was not.... Scrunchy though along with Gamine and others have taken it upon themselves to tell me I have no idea, I am clueless and probably a boar and neanderthal, when I questioned frankly an unmarried woman's post telling us (males) how pathetic we are in marriages that are for the most part happy and lasted 10-25 years, with an unresolved issue that does center around sex.

 

Sorry if you and others have hit a sore spot and offered little constructive help or support.

[soserious1]

I really am growing tired from these attacks on me for being honest. Some of the females jumping in seem to miss what I say, often because I am being brutally honest and trying to instill some simple insight to our thoughts and feelings.

 

In the post above Giotta says penis, tongue in cheek, and there are plenty of women (and some men) who don't have enough sex with their partners and profess their love for that partner, and actually enjoy sex when it happens. So as I say being as blunt as possible:

 

"If one shows their love with an expensive gift, doing the dishes/chores so the other spouse can relax, give a massage, cancel a night out to stay with their spouse..... how about sex in return? "

 

 

 

I have no problem with this... as long as what you expect in return is clearly spelled out :IE" Honey, I'll give you a foot massage if you'll blow me afterwards" or "Dear, I'll stay home instead of going out with the boys if you'll let me do you anally" or "Sweetie, I'll buy you a really nice birthday gift but I'll be expecting you to fsck and suck for a few hours to show me appreciation"

 

I suspect what many women are objecting to here is not that you want sex, but rather that you do something that on the surface seems done out of love but that really is a gift that comes with a price tag attached.. spell your price out BEFORE extending yourself with any extra effort.

[c-riouz]

I suspect what many women are objecting to here is not that you want sex, but rather that you do something that on the surface seems done out of love but that really is a gift that comes with a price tag attached.. spell your price out BEFORE extending yourself with any extra effort.

 

Exactly! That way I bet many woman would say, "if you only do it for sex, then no thanks, keep your gift / effort / whatever to yourself."

[c-riouz]

Just why is sex so important to men? I don't understand it. To me sometimes it feels like a "take it or leave it" thing...if I could never have sex in my life again, I wouldn't be unhappy...there's always masturbation, after all.

 

And human touch can be achieved in a much more satisfying way through cuddling...to me, anyways.

 

Honestly, sex often just feels like work to me...a physical workout...no thanks.

 

I don't see sex as the end-all be-all. Cuddling and kissing is so much better...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I have no problem with this... as long as what you expect in return is clearly spelled out :IE" Honey, I'll give you a foot massage if you'll blow me afterwards" or "Dear, I'll stay home instead of going out with the boys if you'll let me do you anally" or "Sweetie, I'll buy you a really nice birthday gift but I'll be expecting you to fsck and suck for a few hours to show me appreciation"

 

I suspect what many women are objecting to here is not that you want sex, but rather that you do something that on the surface seems done out of love but that really is a gift that comes with a price tag attached.. spell your price out BEFORE extending yourself with any extra effort.

 

 

So then back to my post above citing Dan Savage, his column and his view of marriage that I discuss in post #78..... It is all part of being a good/loving/appreciative spouse.

 

I do these things out of love for my spouse, and the fact I love to see her less harried/stressed/feeling overworked/too much burden, you miss that point.

 

Tell you what read post #78 and tell me why Dan is full of crap???

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Just why is sex so important to men? I don't understand it. To me sometimes it feels like a "take it or leave it" thing...if I could never have sex in my life again, I wouldn't be unhappy...there's always masturbation, after all.

 

And human touch can be achieved in a much more satisfying way through cuddling...to me, anyways.

 

Honestly, sex often just feels like work to me...a physical workout...no thanks.

 

I don't see sex as the end-all be-all. Cuddling and kissing is so much better...

 

 

Ding ding ding...... We have a winner..... Thanks for answering what I have have pretty much thought was the case. Don't know whether to laugh or cry....

[c-riouz]

Hey, I do not represent every woman in this world....it's just that way for ME sometimes....doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else...I'm sure there plenty of women who want sex nonstop...but come to think of it - if it's really a hormonal thing, and considering that men have 20 times more testosterone than women, it makes sense that women don't want it as much. Especially not when I feel exhausted, stressed or tired...sex is the last thing on my mind then, while men seem to be able to relax through sex...gender differences, I suppose.

[c-riouz]

But - since we're already at it - why do you feel like crying? I mean, what does sex give you that cuddling doesn't? Why is not satisfying about cuddling? Serious question. What IS it about sex? Please enlighten men, might help the understanding of the sexes. Thanks.

[giotto]

mean, what does sex give you that cuddling doesn't? Please enlighten men, might help the understanding of the sexes. Thanks.

 

erm... orgasm?

 

 

We are really understanding here the big gulf between men's and women's sexuality, whatever that is...

 

Personally, I stopped asking questions a few months ago. Maybe I'm a Neanderthal as well... all I can say, is that, apparently, we have to understand women a lot (talking to their heart)... fine. We try and do that (with varying degrees of success). But I don't quite understand why women don't have to understand men, especially if they have to have sex with us... I think what we all (men) want is honesty. Are you gone off us? Well, just keep us informed and we'll arrange some outside help... for us...