Our sisterhood

[wildsoul]

So ENCOURAGING people to sleep with the husbands of others is support then? I would think it would be encouraging a life of heartache to do so.

C'mon donnamaybe. You're just being silly now.

 

You know darn well that's not what she meant, and sure as hell you know that jj33 doesn't encourage people to have affairs. Stop stirring the pot.

[Gamine]

I think the feminism point is neither here nor there, it's just throw in there to obfuscate. Who the hell even knows what type of feminism anyone is referring to anymore....

 

I think the point was more - why don't women band together. And my point is, we can't, we never have been that way and we won't any time soon. Sure, it's a nice idea to think - why can't we all demand that the people we are in love with be committed to one relationship.

 

But that's just not how it works. People will do whatever they can get away with. It's human nature.

 

 

Simply because you do not hold a sisterhood as a possibility or a reality does not mean I don't. And from what several other women have said they do too. So it is possible and it does happen and it is real.

 

I've seen it happen as well. I teach a professional culinary art and more often than not, my class is comprised almost entirely of women. At first, they are to themselves and pensive. By the end of the week they are best friends for life and they include me in that number. They cry when leaving and I hear from them for years. My clients send me pictures of their babies.

 

But I'm just a pastry chef.

 

It may be that people will do whatever is in their nature. I am happy that I know a lot of very nice women with hearts of gold. We all have human frailties. I choose to make what is whole inside of me the bigger part. The part that touches others. I don't know... it makes me happy... and if I am kind and thoughtful to others... they are also happy. And with this happiness maybe they'll do something kind for someone else.

 

I teach women who come to study with me from all over the globe and I've seen women from all parts of the world come together and form friendships and partnerships. Helping each other. Working together.

 

When I was in the corporate world my experience was much different. The dynamics were created, in part or in whole, by the 'culture' of that environment. A culture that perhaps placed a value on competitiveness and aggression.

 

I've seen how sisterhood comes together and I've seen how it enriches lives. I do not speak about this as if it is some other-wordly concept that can't exist. It does exist. And, these women are successful, accomplished, and all perfect just as they are. Through knowing one another they became more. And, that is the whole idea in the nutshell.

[boldjack]

Gamine, I believe that you are stressing the positive aspects of "sisterhood', and deliberately ignoring or minimizing the negative aspects. The positive aspects: increased self-esteem, solidarity, shared consciousness, are balanced out by the negative aspects: bigotry,sexism, and fear. You have paid lip-service to the idea of "brotherhood", and have given us males a couple of backhanded compliments, but haven't really explained how "sisterhood", would be good for humanity in general. You remind me of the old racial doctrine of "separate, but equal", you place much more emphasis on separate and very little on equal. I am at a loss, that you can't see that divisiveness is NEVER a positive thing, however positive the original, Utopian, motivations are. BTW, there is no such thing as a "perfect", human being, male or female.

[herenow]

On a large scale I love the idea of sisterhood as much as I love the idea of freedom for all humanity. But, reality isn't in my corner on this one. I don't think it has anything to do with gender, I think it has to do with respect and compassion for mankind. A nice dream, but not likely to happen.

 

However, since this is in the OW/OM forum, I have to assume it relates to the topic discussed in this forum. On that note, What happened to placing blame where blame is due? The person that is betraying is the one who promised to be faithful. If you are saying that a MM would be faithful if no OW was willing to have sex with him, I would say that just the idea that he would want to have sex with an OW is bad enough.

 

I believe that affairs aren't about the BW or the OW and are all about the MM looking for something that he is missing in himself. If the OW in my situation wasn't willing to have sex with my H, there would have been another who was. Even if there were no women in the world that would have sex with him, the issues that my H had would not have magically disappeared.

 

Sisterhood or no sisterhood, had my H not been caught and made some serious life changes, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have continued his destructive behavior.

 

So, would a sisterhood be nice? Sure! But, I don't think if would help us as individuals.

[Island Girl]

However, since this is in the OW/OM forum, I have to assume it relates to the topic discussed in this forum. On that note, What happened to placing blame where blame is due? The person that is betraying is the one who promised to be faithful. If you are saying that a MM would be faithful if no OW was willing to have sex with him, I would say that just the idea that he would want to have sex with an OW is bad enough.

 

IMO -- I'd use the word responsibility.

 

And yes, the responsibility of the betrayal of vows lies squarely on the shoulders of the MM.

 

However a woman who knowingly engages in that affair with the MM has responsibility as well. She is knowingly hurting another person in action.

 

 

I believe that affairs aren't about the BW or the OW and are all about the MM looking for something that he is missing in himself. If the OW in my situation wasn't willing to have sex with my H, there would have been another who was. Even if there were no women in the world that would have sex with him, the issues that my H had would not have magically disappeared.

 

And there are those MM who lie and say they aren't married.

 

No -- the issues your husband had wouldn't have gone away. Most certainly not.

 

But there certainly is responsibility for pain on both sides of the equation.

 

And to me being supportive of another is wanting what is best for them.

 

I could never advocate a woman putting herself in the position of being an OW. It is a painful, lonely, unfulfilled existence in most cases.

 

At the same time I could not advocate a MM cheating on his wife no matter the circumstances.

If things are that bad you either choose to work through it within the marriage or end the marriage.

 

 

I have a healthy respect for most of our male counterparts and appreciate what they bring to the table.

 

I also feel a sense of understanding with most women in thought and emotion.

 

We are different in a lot of ways after all. And I embrace those differences rather then see them a dividing point.

[Gamine]

Gamine, I believe that you are stressing the positive aspects of "sisterhood', and deliberately ignoring or minimizing the negative aspects. The positive aspects: increased self-esteem, solidarity, shared consciousness, are balanced out by the negative aspects: bigotry,sexism, and fear. You have paid lip-service to the idea of "brotherhood", and have given us males a couple of backhanded compliments, but haven't really explained how "sisterhood", would be good for humanity in general. You remind me of the old racial doctrine of "separate, but equal", you place much more emphasis on separate and very little on equal. I am at a loss, that you can't see that divisiveness is NEVER a positive thing, however positive the original, Utopian, motivations are. BTW, there is no such thing as a "perfect", human being, male or female.

 

 

 

I do not ascribe to separatism. I believe in the whole.

 

I do not ascribe to equality, because there is always the one held up to which we compare for being 'equal'.

 

I do not believe that men and women must 'merge' into being one giant endrogenous mass or humanity will suffer.

 

Throughout time, men have formed brotherhoods and it has been through these brotherhoods that ideals and countries were born.

 

No one would doubt the benefit of men joining together in strength and in wisdom to benefit the world. There have been champions. Men who have sacrificed everything to do the right thing. Men who have lost their lives protecting the innocent. Men are beautiful.

 

My life was saved by a police officer who was a man. And, when I take in the entirety of his bravery and selflessness I overflow with gratitude.

 

Men coming together, being the beautiful creatures they are have been blessings to this world. I have known men who I look upon with admiration and am humbled when I see examples of these amazing qualities in nature.

 

I recall driving along a two lane county road. I came to a halt as did the car in the opposing lane. I stopped for a male duck who stood up on his hind legs with wings outstretched... screaming at us. He stood against two cars... made of metal... 100x's his size at least...

 

He stood there, brave. He did this so that the females and the babies could cross the road.

 

Awesome.

 

That is the spirit of the male.

 

At least to me.

 

Women have had similar, quiet and unspoken understandings throughout the ages. When spoken, often, it has been met with controversy. Feminism has been a term used in this thread to redirect an oppositional direction to what is merely being shared as an acceptance of one another... a cherishing of one another. This isn't about equality, fighting, attaching a discernable 'value' to being a woman that I can 'defend'. It's about letting women love themselves and loving each other. Men have our love. We often don't know how to love ourselves and sometimes... that gets in the way of loving each other.

 

That male duck stood tall so that the females and the babies could be. I see that tender courageousness in men's hearts and I am so thankful for it. Because, through the gift of masculinity I can truly feel and be what I am... a woman... just like the mama duck and her babies.

[herenow]

IG, I understand, and agree with some of what you are saying. At the same time I can't depend on others to do what is best for me. I can't assume everyone is going to take my feelings into account when they make decisions for themselves. I have to assume that there are those who will always put their own needs and desires ahead of mine especially if they are strangers to me. I'm not just talking about affairs, I'm talking life in general.

 

As another person said on this thread. Do unto others...

I believe in that and I never wish anything bad to come to anyone even if they are strangers. I don't engage in situations that I know will hurt others, but I cant expect anyone to do the same for me. I live my life the best I can. I have to be happy with myself and my actions to be able to be happy with anyone else. That's just me, I can't tell anyone else how to live their lives.

[herenow]

No - we CAN'T tell anyone how to live, but we can ASK them; ENCOURAGE them; have discourse about the possibility. At least that.

 

I agree and I wish it were that easy. In the context of the forum, not everyone agrees that affairs are bad. If a person doesn't see the action as being hurtful, then they won't take into account the possible pain their actions may cause.

 

For a true "sisterhood" to exist we would all have to agree on what we would consider right or wrong. Since our opinions are subjective, IMO it's highly unlikely.

[boldjack]

Gamine, You are truly a good person. I love to read anything you post for it's insight and compassion, but you are beginning to really piss me off! I AGREE with everything that you have said, and will second all of your arguments, UNTIL you make it a GENDER thing. Just because men have formed "brotherhoods", in the past doesn't make it right or a good thing to do. Your story about the Daddy duck is just as true for the mommy. Don't believe me? Try to come between a Sow bear and her cub, or a cow and it's calf. All of the qualities, possessed by men are also possessed by women, and vice versa. The ONLY difference between the sexes is their role in reproduction. You are a wonderful person, I wish I knew you better, I HATE to disagree with someone I respect, as I do you , but there it is.

[Gamine]

That's it precisely.

 

I love your posts, Gamine!

 

 

Love right back at ya, Donnamaybe!!!!

[Gamine]

Gamine, You are truly a good person. I love to read anything you post for it's insight and compassion, but you are beginning to really piss me off! I AGREE with everything that you have said, and will second all of your arguments, UNTIL you make it a GENDER thing. Just because men have formed "brotherhoods", in the past doesn't make it right or a good thing to do. Your story about the Daddy duck is just as true for the mommy. Don't believe me? Try to come between a Sow bear and her cub, or a cow and it's calf. All of the qualities, possessed by men are also possessed by women, and vice versa. The ONLY difference between the sexes is their role in reproduction. You are a wonderful person, I wish I knew you better, I HATE to disagree with someone I respect, as I do you , but there it is.

 

 

 

To coin a phrase by Ron Burgundy (Anchorman).... "Agree to Disagree..."

 

I hope I at least got a smile out of you...

[Reggie]

All girls are princesses.

 

All men are princes.

 

There are no peasants.

 

We are all unique and we are individuals. Each one of us through our individuality adds to this world and to one another even if the lessons seem obtuse, irrelevant, or even unwelcome. There are decisions we each make in life to either turn our hearts cold and hard to to seek the deeper meanings. Doing so isn't weakness it is a sign of strength.

 

Anything seen through anger will appear angry. Anything seen through gentleness will appear gentle. If we wish to see the true innerworkings of our own heart we need only turn to our perceptions.

 

We are all sisters and men are all brothers. The two comprise humanity. Women have their unique path and men have their unique path.

 

We can all agree that there is a lot of kindness in this world and there is a lot of anger and resentment in this world. We can find imperfections in everything if we look hard enough. And, if we think upon our situation long enough we can justify feeling or thinking just about anything. But when setting aside the betrayal, the anger and the justifications for it aren't we all looking for peace?

 

There are females and males in the entire kingdom of living things each having their importance. Each having their own beauty.

 

It is a fallacy to believe that we should be divisional because it breeds disharmony, anger, vengefulness and hurt. Many posts refer to hurt as the origin of infidelity. Bad feelings about one's past treatment, about one's worthiness to be fully loved, about why we are justified in hurting one another.

 

A sisterhood suggests that we are really all seeking the same thing simply going about it differently. That we, while having our own individual life and experiences share more in common than we do in differences. And that, perhaps, if seen through love and compassion the way we see one another might show us another way.

 

I prefer being a peasant:bunny:.

[boldjack]

Every time I read your posts, Gamine the fair, I smile.

[NoIDidn't]

Every time I read your posts, Gamine the fair, I smile.

 

You smile? Really?

 

Fancy that.

 

LOL

[boldjack]

Yes, I do smile, and quite often, smarty. Ok, sometimes it's sort of a cruel smirk, or sinister snarl, but sometimes, it's positively, angelic:D:D.

[NoIDidn't]

Yes, I do smile, and quite often, smarty. Ok, sometimes it's sort of a cruel smirk, or sinister snarl, but sometimes, it's positively, angelic:D:D.

 

LOL

 

Needless to say, I agree with you and jj33 on this one.

 

The assumption being made is that those of us that don't agree with this sisterhood business are somehow bitter, angry "women" that have lost the ability to believe in nonsense. LOL.

 

Human behavior being what it is, does not lend itself to this utopian view. Didn't you see The Matrix Trilogy? LOL. They tried that one already (the Garden of Eden, my assumption lol) and we prefered killing and jealousy in a quest for knowledge.

 

Me, angry and bitter? No. Just realistic. And while I can bash men with the best of them, human behavior is the same in men and in women even if women don't want to admit it.

[boldjack]

Absolutely. There is no behavior in men that is not possessed by the distaff side. BTW, You would never try to bash ME, would you, darlin?

[NoIDidn't]

Absolutely. There is no behavior in men that is not possessed by the distaff side. BTW, You would never try to bash ME, would you, darlin?

 

Only if you displayed "typical" male behavior. Darlin'.

 

LOL

 

Women only pretend to be the fairer sex. We get just as dirty as we perceive men to get. Sometimes even dirtier - but mostly towards men regarding children and money. LOL

[boldjack]

"Typical", is just about the only adjective that has never been applied to me. Some of the ones that have , I won't mention.

[Gamine]

Oh come on you guys, this is a tough crowd!

 

As far as the 'utopic' view is concerned, I have it. I live it. I like it. I don't personally see the percentage in being pissed off all of the time or seeing one another as opponents. I do my 'deal' and it works. The people I interact with are happy and so am I. I always try to build others up rather than tear them down and am gentle as a pussy cat. However, I am human and I have my pair of claws. If someone hurts someone I love, well yes... the pussy cat becomes a lion.

 

I don't pick on anyone, steal, lie or cheat. I don't do that to my brothers or my sisters.

 

So, is that some elusive concept or my way of life? Well, it is my way of life and I am definitely a stiletto wearing, lip gloss toting, handbag junkie kind of woman.

 

I do believe in the sisterhood so I'm going to just continue doing my thing and for those who embrace the same values I hope you do the same. I 'get' the world. But I live coming from a kinder place.

 

The bottom line? Well, we don't need anyone to sacrifice anything for us to be anything. For if we truly are, we are. Despite the 'nay sayers'.

 

I cannot help but also hear some anger in the voices of some of the posts. I am the one waving the white flag and some pick up the red flag and wave in war. I suppose everyone is at a different place in life with different experiences.

 

I have been treated like *hit. That does not make me *hit. Nor does it make me want to treat others like *hit. So I don't. All of the nastiness and venom out there is simply that. It doesn't poison me because it is irrelevant to who I am and what I find important. Bad doesn't make me bad. Good doesn't make me good. I am simply good by choice.

 

So if I live according to some elusive concept, then so be it. I know there are others who believe as I do. But somehow I hope that those who are still waving their red flags may pause to think about what war they are fighting? Is it internal? Is it with the world?

 

So if you are out there and want to defend your right to be angry you can... I'll just smile at you and give you a big cyber hug anyway.

[Gamine]

BoldJack:

 

Note the reference to my 'brothers'.

[NoIDidn't]

So if you are out there and want to defend your right to be angry you can... I'll just smile at you and give you a big cyber hug anyway.

 

So jj33, was right? In defense of your "way of life", you have now called us dissenters angry. Hmmmm.

 

Thing is, I live pretty much the same way. In MY way of life its called the Golden Rule not some mythical sisterhood. I treat others the way I would like to be treated whether or not they treat me in that way. To treat others they way that they treat me would be lowering my standards.

 

We aren't a tough crowd, Gamine. We simply aren't looking to be converted. There is another forum for those seeking to convert others around here somewhere.

[boldjack]

Oh Donna, Donna, Donna, the "pissed off", part, was my warped sense of humor. I rarely get angry on LS (contrary to the opinions of some) because I will probably never meet any of the posters, anyway, so why get shook up? I am, however, insistent on calling a spade, a spade. Did you really think I was mad? Au contrare, I love Gamine's posts and respect her to a fair-the-well. You too.

[NoIDidn't]

Gamine, that is what I saw also. I think your views are wonderful and hopeful for anyone who longs for less enmity between the human beings on this planet.

 

The operative word being human.

 

I'm not angry. I just disagree. When one hopes for less enmity between us, one doesn't do it by calling the other angry.

[Gamine]

I am not trying to convert you or anyone here. As many dissenters there have been those in agreement. This thread was here for everyone to participate however if you did not want to why did you? In other words, you don't agree and that is okay. But when you attack my right and that of others for thinking and feeling this way, isn't that really an act of conversion? Many of us simply enjoyed talking about being good to one another. Sharing in this dialogue does not impact your right to think or feel the way you do and I never have. I never will. I do not seek to change you, convert you or do anything TO YOU.

 

You can say that our dialogue with those in agreement is trying to convert you. How can that be when we are just having an enjoyable time exploring the ideas of a sisterhood? How does this ideology attack yours?

 

Several in this thread were sharing in that. Why isn't that okay?

 

If you believe that holding up something that is inherently good and harmless to be an attack, perhaps you may be looking at it as something controlling... when it is passive.