how loving is hell?

[shoesies05]

i know it seems like a silly question.

 

But- id been a christian for most of my life. Now im agnostic, and my biggest thing holding me back with religions ( aside from the lack of knowledge on many of them) is the fact that even if someone is a good person- if they dont believe in god they go to hell.

 

To me thats not something a loving god would do... if its a system based on belief- not knowledge, then why would a god that supposedly loves us so much make us suffer for all eternity. Its not like we know it the christian god, or any other...

 

any christians have an input on this id like to hear it... for instance if you have different views on how people go to heaven or are "saved".

 

like to hear from anyone really i guess. just keep it clean please.

[Ronni_W]

To me, "hell" is what we humans do to ourselves and each other right here on Planet Earth. And same principles apply to how we can create "heaven on earth."

 

I don't buy into the whole "hell has a (metaphysical) location" theory...because it just doesn't resonate with me. I do think "hell" is a state of mind. But, like I said, so is heaven...I'm just waiting to "get there" . Well, I get there sometimes...working to be able to stay there for longer periods and on a more consistent basis, is more accurate.

 

Good luck in your journey to find your own Truth!

Namaste.

[GorillaTheater]

I've struggled with this as well as part of my own journey of faith. There's so much about the Bible (excluding some Old Testament Genesis-type stuff) that makes perfect sense, but the idea of Hell is very difficult for me to get a handle on. Jesus was pretty clear that it was a real place, and involved flames, but He also was apt to talk in metaphorical and extreme ways (like how we must hate our parents) in order to make a point, so I'm simply unsure how literally to take Him when He talks about Hell.

 

For that matter, the idea of God demanding that His son be a blood sacrifice for us has me pretty well flummoxed too, provisions of Hebrews attempting to explain that idea notwithstanding. Once made the mistake of telling the pastor that the whole idea seemed "pagan" to me.

[quankanne]

I believe there's a hell, but not the traditional take on it ... it's merely an afterlife in the absence of God. Doesn't sound bad or scary on the outset, but for those people who DO believe there is a God, being without is a pretty horrific thing to imagine. LOL, kinda like imagining life without caffeine ever again ... it's ALL you think about when you're forced apart from it, you know?

 

"if God is a loving God, he wouldn't subject us to this" ... well, HE isn't subjecting us to to this, WE do it ourselves when we make certain decisions as we exercise free will. Why should everyone collect $200 and pass go if they're not playing the game correctly? We even set up computer programs to work a certain way, and when they don't, there's "hell" to pay? If we have expectations and ramifications in everyday life, why should the "rules" be different when it comes to our spirituality?

 

yep, God *could* ensure the everyone goes straight to heaven by taking away our free will and deciding for us, but what kind of lives would we have? We'd be puppets. And that's not part of his gameplan. Instead, he gives us hope of salvation through Christ, and it's up to us to embrace it or walk away from it, the decision is ours alone.

 

I also believe that he sees into each and every heart and judges each by the content of love – you don't necessarily have to be aware of Jesus to be a good person and to act on the Golden Rule, which is to love God and love one another. Because when you love others, you're really showing God love, whether you embrace Him or not.

[wuggle]

the fact that even if someone is a good person- if they dont believe in god they go to hell. To me thats not something a loving god would do.

 

I was brought up a christian, but this, and lots of other similar contradictory things, are what eventually led me to abandon my belief in god. Why fight what your intellect seems to be telling you, ie that it doesn't make any sense. If there was a god then sureley he endowed you with this intelligence and would want you to make the best of yourself by using it (paradox ?). If this intellect leads you to the logical conclusion that god doesn't exist, please don't dismiss this idea because you have been brought up to believe in god so he must exist. Use your intellect, listen to it.

 

If you are at the point in your evolution where you're asking these questions you must read Dawkins 'The God Delusion' - brilliant book.

[quankanne]

so ... what happens if you listen to your intellect, read all the books suggested to "move past the urge" but you're still getting that call deep inside?

 

do you dismiss intellectualism and go with the visceral stuff? With that sure knowledge that there's something more than what can be explained rationally?

 

not trying to pick a fight, am merely curious if anyone has still been shadowed by the Big Guy ... and what you would say after they've tried everything within their power to quell that voice

[Enema]

The idea of hell makes perfect sense....

 

...if you realize that the concept was created to scare people into buying the product. (Religion)

 

What better way to sell a product than to promise eternal torture if you don't buy it, yet have the torture occur in another realm after we're dead so it can't ever be proven false?

 

Religion was created the day the first con-man met the first fool.

[NoIDidn't]

My take goes like this

 

Most Christians would say that they are loving parents.

 

There are a lot of Christian parents that believe in spanking their children for misdeeds.

 

In the mind of the parent, the spanking matches the misdeed. A violated trust, of sorts.

 

In the mind of the child, getting a spanking isn't something that loving parents do - yet they still get spankings and don't seem to doubt their parents' love for them.

 

I don't think my analogy is perfect (and its certainly only going to anger the non-Christians even further), but not believing is considered an affront to God, hence Hell as its consequence.

 

Or think of it this way. As a Christian, one knows that the Bible tells believers to love the Lord and reverence him as a condition for being considered his "child". One can't love what they don't acknowledge.

 

But this is only my two cents.

 

I don't have trouble with the concept/reality of Hell in the Afterlife. I have a huge problem with the living through it on Earth, though. (Not with God, though, but with humans making life Hell for one another).

[dunstable]

i... my biggest thing holding me back with religions ( aside from the lack of knowledge on many of them) is the fact that even if someone is a good person- if they dont believe in god they go to hell.

 

To me thats not something a loving god would do... if its a system based on belief- not knowledge, then why would a god that supposedly loves us so much make us suffer for all eternity.

 

Ridiculous isn't it? There are many other claims of religion that are equally nonsensical and/or self contradictory.

 

Religion was humanity's attempt to explain the origins, future, and purpose of the world when humanity was in its infancy. Humanity is grown up now and has the benefit of the far more awesome explanation provided by Darwin and his successors.

 

The only people that believe in religion now are those with childlike minds who as grown ups continue to believe what their elders told them.

[Lovelybird]

The only people that believe in religion now are those with childlike minds who as grown ups continue to believe what their elders told them.

Not true, my parents never told me about God, on the contrary, I am telling them now.

 

I found God in my 20's, lots of mysterious things happened

[dunstable]

Not true, my parents never told me about God, on the contrary, I am telling them now.

 

Ah, but I didn't say "parents" - I said "elders". I doubt you invented your own religion but followed one you had heard about from people you regarded as authorities?

[Lovelybird]

Ah, but I didn't say "parents" - I said "elders". I doubt you invented your own religion but followed one you had heard about from people you regarded as authorities?

Nope. I didn't believe there are invisible world. But some experiences led me have to believe there are. There was an invisible being communicated with me, draw my attention to God. There wasn't authorities told me. Because I couldn't explain the mysteirous things, neither pyschologist could, one day a sister gave me a Bible, and I found the answers in Bible. then later I went to church

[dunstable]

There was an invisible being communicated with me, draw my attention to God. There wasn't authorities told me. Because I couldn't explain the mysteirous things, neither pyschologist could, one day a sister gave me a Bible, and I found the answers in Bible. then later I went to church

 

We only have your word for it that you had a revelation and were never influenced (ever in your life) by authorities. Even if that is accepted, you ended up going to church - placing yourself in a position of submission to authority. Why don't you treat your revelation as a delusion - because authorities (your sister, the church) tell you it is not?

[quankanne]

Religion was humanity's attempt to explain the origins, future, and purpose of the world when humanity was in its infancy. Humanity is grown up now and has the benefit of the far more awesome explanation provided by Darwin and his successors.

 

exact same thing can be said about science, which is merely finding the words to explain the unknown. What is inexplicable then becomes rejected, simply because science (for the most part) cannot embrace the unknown. And then, one man's truth becomes another's delusion.

[dunstable]

exact same thing can be said about science, which is merely finding the words to explain the unknown. What is inexplicable then becomes rejected, simply because science (for the most part) cannot embrace the unknown. And then, one man's truth becomes another's delusion.

 

If by the "inexplicable" you mean divine revelations, they are easily explained as delusions or frauds.

[quankanne]

inexplicable in any sense. Like Nessie or the chupacabra. *Something* exists, but because it can not be quantitatively measured or proven, they're considered fraud. To ignore the possibility of the unknown is to also be susceptible to delusion, for man doesn't possess complete knowledge ...

 

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. – Hamlet

[disgracian]

It remains the best and only workable method we have to separate fact from fiction. People who niggle at science for being narrow-minded show a complete lack of understanding.

 

Science refusing to "embrace the unknown" has resulted in an explosion of knowledge and understanding. This is a good thing. Preserving mysteries by encouraging ignorance (which is what almost every form of religion on the planet does) is a bad thing.

 

Cheers,

D.

[wuggle]

To ignore the possibility of the unknown is to also be susceptible to delusion, for man doesn't possess complete knowledge ...

 

Totally agree, as I feel would the best scientific minds of our day. The wonders of what mankind has learnt should lead to a level of humility regarding what is and it not.

 

The purity and beauty of true science is that it accepts that there are things unknown for now, strives to find them and never ignores the evidence of what appears to be. It strives to present as true a picture of reality as the best evidence and sense can.

 

There may be a god, I certainly used to believe so. However each and every argument that any and all religions have presented me with for the existance of god has been totally superceded by a more logical argument from the scientific community, based on things more tangible than faith.

 

To me I don't have a problem with anyone believing in God, I just see them as having not been convinced by the arguments yet . But then again maybe I'm wrong, as a scientifically minded person I will not dismiss the possibility, but I really need to see some evidence.

[quankanne]

so it's never enough to be in the moment, absorbing what it has to offer, but rather one must analyze and compute and think it to death before he can say it's okay to accept it? We were created simply as rational beings, there's more depths to us than the one facet!

[wuggle]

so it's never enough to be in the moment, absorbing what it has to offer

 

Hell yes it IS !!. One of the main things that I have learnt is to try to do this. When you consider the infinity before you existed and the infinity after then you MUST try to live in the now, life is so precious and fantastic to not live it would be so sad. (not actually sure if I believe in infinity though, seems illogical to my mind, makes a mockery of everything )

 

but rather one must analyze and compute and think it to death before he can say it's okay to accept it?

 

A scientific approach isn't really like this. I certainly don't analyse everything to death. I see a bird I think, that's nice, I taste a beer I think, that's lovely. I try to enjoy life. But honesty to myself is important to me. I, like most inquiring minds sometimes ask why I exist. I have (however that happened) been given an inquiring and logical mind. If my elders (whoever the hell they are) tell me that a rainbow is created by god, and that this god was created by no-one, he was always there and created everything my logical enquiring mind can no longer accept this as true. The scientific community have offered me a better explanation for why a rainbow exists and my logical mind has analysed the explanation and considers it much more likely that the god explanation.

 

That being said, the scientific community still have not come up with a satisfying answer to the initial point of existance, maybe they will maybe they won't. The big bang theory still leaves the same questions unanswered. But to my mind they have come up with better arguments for almost everything back to that point.

[quankanne]

but why must there *only* be a logical or scientific explanation to our world? There's room for more than just the one explanation, and a spiritual one isn't as far-fetched as people purport it to be, simply because man has more depth to him than just logic.

 

my belief is that the true answer lies out there somewhere between science and spiritual belief ...

 

and that the Big Bang Theory is a hell of a double entendre

[wuggle]

but why must there *only* be a logical or scientific explanation to our world? There's room for more than just the one explanation, and a spiritual one isn't as far-fetched as people purport it to be, simply because man has more depth to him than just logic.

 

Agree, You might be right, I might. Who knows. In some ways I would love it if someone could give me some really great evidence that god exists, but I don't feel I need to believe in god to give my life meaning.

 

and that the Big Bang Theory is a hell of a double entendre

 

Amen to that

[shoesies05]

the whole point of my argument is that man doesnt have KNOWLEDGE of god... its all just believing in him. and i dont understand why if we didnt know he would punish us for not believing.

 

say we did KNOW and then decided not to care and turn our heads, i would understand a hell then. otherwise not...

 

for instance: a little kid takes an extra piece of candy from the store because it didnt KNOW better. would a parent that loves the child punish the kid for the rest of its life?

 

i do think it is silly to not be open minded about the possibility of things- like that there could be a god. and there couldnt be. we dont know everything and i think searching for answers is amazing- whatever answer you find ( generally speaking).

[shoesies05]

I was brought up a christian, but this, and lots of other similar contradictory things, are what eventually led me to abandon my belief in god. Why fight what your intellect seems to be telling you, ie that it doesn't make any sense. If there was a god then sureley he endowed you with this intelligence and would want you to make the best of yourself by using it (paradox ?). If this intellect leads you to the logical conclusion that god doesn't exist, please don't dismiss this idea because you have been brought up to believe in god so he must exist. Use your intellect, listen to it.

 

If you are at the point in your evolution where you're asking these questions you must read Dawkins 'The God Delusion' - brilliant book.

 

ill check out that book. thanks for the advice!

[NoIDidn't]

but why must there *only* be a logical or scientific explanation to our world? There's room for more than just the one explanation, and a spiritual one isn't as far-fetched as people purport it to be, simply because man has more depth to him than just logic.

 

my belief is that the true answer lies out there somewhere between science and spiritual belief ...

 

and that the Big Bang Theory is a hell of a double entendre

 

I agree. Research is being done now to find the separation between the Brain and the Mind/soul. Huge chunks of the brain can be removed without changing the essence of a person, but remove too much and you basically turn a person into a vegetable or kill them.

 

I don't think that science can explain this, yet or ever. Just like it hasn't been figured out why we only use about 10% of our brains conciously. Or the fact that geniuses have the same 10% as everyone else, so what makes them so much smarter?

 

I think the research will open many doors, but in regards to the initial question of soul/brain, it will be like doing a very difficult puzzle where you end up staring at the data without coming up with any new answers. At least for another hundred years, anyway.