how loving is hell?

[disgracian]

I agree. Research is being done now to find the separation between the Brain and the Mind/soul.

The separation is called reality.

Huge chunks of the brain can be removed without changing the essence of a person, but remove too much and you basically turn a person into a vegetable or kill them.

Which has nothing to do with souls, but damaging important brain functions on a physical level.

I don't think that science can explain this, yet or ever. Just like it hasn't been figured out why we only use about 10% of our brains conciously. Or the fact that geniuses have the same 10% as everyone else, so what makes them so much smarter?

Because they are really using closer to 100% of their brains?

 

How is it that through the majesty of the internet, with so much knowledge at our fingertips, people still keep coming up with this sort of stuff over and over?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Eve]

i know it seems like a silly question.

 

But- id been a christian for most of my life. Now im agnostic, and my biggest thing holding me back with religions ( aside from the lack of knowledge on many of them) is the fact that even if someone is a good person- if they dont believe in god they go to hell.

 

To me thats not something a loving god would do... if its a system based on belief- not knowledge, then why would a god that supposedly loves us so much make us suffer for all eternity. Its not like we know it the christian god, or any other...

 

any christians have an input on this id like to hear it... for instance if you have different views on how people go to heaven or are "saved".

 

like to hear from anyone really i guess. just keep it clean please.

 

H'mmmm.. although I have stopped thinking about hell as such, the idea of it used to bother me a lot. Within the New Testement there is a warning to not to go with ideas of who is or who is not going to hell or are saved, which I do follow.. mostly. Essentially, for me this ties into how those who met with Christ seemed to simply recognise Him and my own search and subsequent experiences of The Christ. However, I would say that many people who are irreligious or religious do ascribe to some level of independantly deciding who is and who is not 'good' or 'bad' in their lives. I suppose what I am saying is that even if someone chooses not to believe or follow a Biblical perception of hell or heaven they still live out the polarities in one way or another. I would go one step futher and say that most people do know which way they are going but choose to ignore it.

 

Thats my take..

 

With this in mind I have sought God to assist me primarily with my judgements. From my own spiritual experiences (which I will not go into here) I have come to the reasoning that hell is the continued place whereby all hurts are heard and felt without the buffer of God/Earth/others/our bodies between the thought and the experience. So those who choose not to follow God or what is good will continue to do so but within a continued cycle. I see the perpetuation of this cycle on a daily basis within my work and so can easily see how this can continue in the hereafter.

 

Is this fair?

 

I really dont know. I would say that it is not good to try and control someone to believe in you. Logically I would have thought it better that they simply not be born and thus avoid the whole pointless process if that is where they are going to end up - but I trust in God to discern what is going on within peoples hearts and minds but this stance is only present after much searching and prayer. I suppose many are very willing to take the chance that He does not exist and thats up to them. I dont think much further than this for those who dont believe. No point.

 

As for the science of it.. I dont know. There are many things which are unseen such as chi energy or telekenisis which people can evidence. I suppose its whether you lean towards that sort of thing or not. Whatever you search for is your truth.

 

Overall, now that I have sought to find God as honestly and fully as possible I do not have any fear of the hereafter... except if reincarnation is actually true. That would be really crap.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[elaina]

Hi. It's not a silly question at all. Anybody who thinks logically will find themselves asking that question to God and/or to other people.

 

I'm a Christian, and I'm not one bit perfect or the smartest or most spiritual Christian out there by any means! Everyday I realize more and more God's amazing love for everybody, including me.

 

Hell is sort of a confusing topic for me too. One thing though that helps me with the concept of hell is that God is alien. I know that statement conjures up pictures of weird looking creatures from outer space, but God is NOT that type of alien monsters found in sci-fi movies. What I mean is, God is not a mere earthling like you and me or any animal or plant species that calls earth home.

 

God is greater than the Milky Way galaxy. He is not of our galaxy. He is the Maker of all galaxies, and our incredibly necessary star which we call the sun, that our beloved planet goes around, isn't even a big star compared to millions of other stars in the universe!

 

How that comforts me in my understanding of hell is because it shows how tiny we humans are. Our concept of love and of God is really very tiny, like the concept of people is hardly nonexistent to the poor little ants and bugs who find themselves being killed just cause they have unintentionally wandered into a human's living quarters. I mean, honestly, do you think bugs say, ha ha ha let's go invade that human house over there? Nope. Their tiny little brains are run by instincts that have no inbuilt knowledge of people and how people can be picky about who comes into their living space.

 

Well, we people are very limited in our understanding of God. The only understanding of God that we have is what God has revealed to us. Some people get mad and say, well ok, how can God blame us then if we don't know Him. God does call anyone who wants to, to find Him, but God is Gentlemanly. He doesn't force us to seek Him.

 

God, for reasons hard for us humans to fully grasp, also has this thing about faith. For some very interesting reason, God wants us to have faith in Him even right now when we can't see Him. That's totally important to Him.

 

Now, for us humans, we think why? That's silly! If God would just show Himself, then everyone would believe in Him and we wouldn't have these silly arguments of whether He exists or loves or cares or whatever. That is very logical human thinking that makes complete sense to us, yeah? If God exists, why won't He show everybody?

 

The reason is cause faith is very important to God, and we've already established the fact that God doesn't think like a human. He is bigger and greater and more powerful than all the humans on earth, and His thinking is way more advanced that the most intelligent humans.

 

Now back to hell, there has been a lot of confusion about hell because of the Greek/Roman myths about hell. For example, that book Dante's Inferno, illustrates hell as a place of eternal torture for sins that people have committed, as ugly scary demons delight in their suffering.

 

God actually prepared hell as a place for demons (spirits that are not natives to earth that have rebelled against God)

 

In the Jewish belief, hell was not really considered a place of eternal torture for people. This idea did not really come full force until later on, from what I've studied. If I am wrong please kindly tell me.

 

I do believe that God will indeed punish people who have hurt others. I also believe that God does bring those who get to know Him into His Kingdom, into eternal life. Right now we people who are alive are not living in the Kingdom of God, in eternal life. We are living in a state of decay. God's Kingdom does not know decay. God's Kingdom is greater than anything we can imagine, and is a place where there is no sadness, no pain, no death.

 

Those who go to hell are those who I personally believe are those who have hurt people and animals and who have not truly received Gods' forgiveness AND changed their ways. I personally think they will suffer pain for awhile, I do not know how long, and then that they will simply be no more. They will not exist anymore, after they have been punished for hurting others. That is my personal belief about hell and yeah I could be wrong.

 

God is the Master Mathematician, the Original Artist, ... He knows the equations of everybody. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He cares for His Creation and He loves everyone, yet He is also All Pure, All Just, and All Righteous. He is the Beauty Maker. He doesn't like filth. He hates when someone hurts someone else. He does not just roll over and put on a love hat when people (cause God gave people free will) choose to hurt others in any way. God punishes, yet He wants people to live right for everyone's best interest, case He loves everyone.

 

Ezekiel 18: 30-32

 

" 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!"

[TaraMaiden]

Everything is Mind-wrought.

 

God only exists because people think about him. For god to exist, we have to consider him. if nobody thought about him, he would not exist.

Ergo, God only exists in the mind.

[dunstable]

The only understanding of God that we have is what God has revealed to us.

 

Were the revelations of which you speak revealed to you or to someone else?

 

If they were revealed to someone else, why do you believe them?

 

If revealed to you, what form did they take?

 

Please kindly elucidate.

[elaina]

Were the revelations of which you speak revealed to you or to someone else?

 

If they were revealed to someone else, why do you believe them?

 

If revealed to you, what form did they take?

 

Please kindly elucidate.

 

There are different ways God reveals Himself. One revelation to all people who have the ability to see the world is the breathtaking beauty, the detailed structure, the functioning order, and amazing reason of the universe. God shows He is the Master Mathematician and the Original Artist in the creation of the earth. Now, I do personally think God uses a form of evolution in His Creation, but the beauty and patterns of the earth is not by chance. They are by design, and the designer is God. God also shows His sense of humor in some of the adorable creatures He set the design for.

 

Another revelation begin with Adam and Eve, those popular figures of the Bible. They knew God in a way that nobody else ever did. God continued to speak to their descendants who would listen. Enoch, one of the most amazing people in recorded in the Jewish Torah, had such a close revelation of God, or as it is translated into English "walked with God", that it says in Genesis 5 (NIV)

 

" 21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. "

 

(At that time of the earth, people lived longer, because many of the Biblical scientists think that the ozone layer had not yet been damaged.)

 

Anyways, God gave revelations to anyone who wanted to know Him about Him, and He gave other revelations to leaders of the people. God gave Noah, for example, revelations of Himself and of the flood. God gave Abraham revelations of Himself and of the promise of descendants and a blessing for all people. God gave Moses revelations of Himself and of his plan for Israel. God gave King David revelations of Himself and a promise of the kingship that would come from his descendants for all people for all time. They are not the only ones... the history of the Jewish people is filled with people who received revelations from God. These people could either reject or accept God and His revelations.

 

The Christian Bible takes the Torah as a revelation from God, as well as various accounts of Jesus and his followers.

 

Jesus is the revelation of God in human form, for all people. After Jesus arose from the dead and ascended into Heaven, God's Holy Spirit speaks to people and reveals God to those who seek Him.

 

Yeah I know it sounds like an interesting myth to those who don't believe, but I am not trying to convince anybody. God is the One who does that, not me or any other person, except Jesus.

 

Anyways, the revelations revealed to me are the earth that I see with my physical eyes, Jesus who I see with my soul, the Bible that I read and process with my mind, and God's Spirit who speaks to my spirit.

[quankanne]

God only exists because people think about him. For god to exist, we have to consider him. if nobody thought about him, he would not exist.

Ergo, God only exists in the mind.

 

applying that statement to reality, I could also argue that the 99.9999 percent of the world's population doesn't really exist because I've never met them nor do I think about them.

[wuggle]

applying that statement to reality, I could also argue that the 99.9999 percent of the world's population doesn't really exist because I've never met them nor do I think about them.

 

Strangely enough some strands of quantum logic would appear to substantiate that, and the often quoted question "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound" springs to mind

[dunstable]

Anyways, the revelations revealed to me are the earth that I see with my physical eyes, Jesus who I see with my soul, the Bible that I read and process with my mind, and God's Spirit who speaks to my spirit.

Thanks for a good explanation, elaina, and a beautifully written closing line (quoted above).

 

None of your reasons for believing carry any weight with me, however. While I also see breathtaking beauty in the world, that does not compel me to assume that it had a designer. Everything appears explainable, or potentially explainable, without invoking a designer.

 

The bible stories that you go on to mention don't impress me as anything more than works of fiction by primitive peoples.

 

The special revelations, where god is supposed to have spoken directly with certain people, cannot count as evidence for me because I only have other peoples' word on the subject and the information said to have been revealed is often so fantastical as to be beyond credibility.

 

Finally, I don't see Jesus as a revelation but as a mythical hero for a whole host of reasons including that the Jesus story is so similar to a lot of pagan myths.

[quankanne]

*gasp* Are you calling my savior a pagan?! YOUR mama wears army boots, so there, ya heathen! :bunny:

 

the safest thing to say is that you cannot measure a highly intense, private relationship by the usual standards because it only has meaning to two people, the ones involved.

 

kinda like something I was trying to explain to my sister a couple of months ago: I could describe to her what might take place on her spiritual retreat because I was guessing it had a lot of things with those I've been on, but even then I wasn't telling her anything. Because a retreat is so highly subjective, any description would fail to do it justice. It has to be experienced in order for it to make sense, and even then, you couldn't give an explanation true justice.

[clv0116]

If you want to limit this discussion to the Bible and what's inside it, I suggest you look carefully at the etymology of the original words commonly translated 'soul' and 'hell'. They are essentially the breath of life, and the grave.

 

The interesting question is where in the history of Christianity someone stood to gain from promoting the idea of a burning place of torture.

[Enema]

The interesting question is where in the history of Christianity someone stood to gain from promoting the idea of a burning place of torture.

 

A better question, is where didn't they?

 

I started a thread a while ago about the different fear mechanisms various religions employ to recruit you and keep you hooked.

 

Hell is one of the better ones because the only people that know for sure - are dead!

[clv0116]

A better question, is where didn't they?

 

Or when. The original books don't seem to have the concept of a burning torture pit full of satan and demons poking dead-but-aware humans. I blame the Pope.

[quankanne]

be fair, the pope from way back when, because hell as a pit of fire isn't a recent proposition, but an ancient one. And somewhere, comparing the loss of a relatinship with God to the pain of being consumed by fire was literally translated to being torched.

 

i.e., lost in translation ...

[not_a_happy_camper]

I haven't read through the whole thread, just bits, but it's very interesting, and something I have spent a lot of time thinking about myself.

 

my own take on it is that MAN wrote the books that are in the Bible. Man was inspired by God to write these books. Man then chose what went in the Bible. While Man was inspired by God, no one really knows what God was thinking! I can't remember where I read it, but in one of the early books of the Old Testament, it does say that those who don't believe won't will go to Hell. I've always thought, what about people living in remote areas throughout history, who've never even been introduced to the idea of God as we have? People who are good and loving.............but they go to hell, just because they don't even know about God. This was not their choice. It was just their circumstances! This is probably a simplistic view. But do you honestly believe that the God you know to be loving, will send these people to hell, even though he created them and put them where they were? If that's the case, they never stood a chance!

 

I don't believe everything I read. We can't take the Bible literally word for word. Man wrote it, not God.

[clv0116]

They go to Sheol according to the pre-Christian Hebrew books. The burrow or grave, the destination of the righteous and unrighteous.

[wuggle]

be fair, the pope from way back when, because hell as a pit of fire isn't a recent proposition, but an ancient one. And somewhere, comparing the loss of a relatinship with God to the pain of being consumed by fire was literally translated to being torched.

 

i.e., lost in translation ...

 

Sorry, don't want to be argumentative but that's a bit too easy to dismiss. The current pope may not have been initially responsible for the conceptions of hell but he is now. According to catholic dogma, the pope is God's representative on earth, whatever he decrees (binds) on earth will be bound in heaven. So as he isn't correcting the misconceptions he IS responsible.

 

In fact if the bible or catholic dogma is to be taken literally then not only is he responsible for the misconceptions, he is actually responsible for hell itself. By this I mean that if you take as true the line from Jesus "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (and catholics are supposed to otherwise a whole heap of other stuff is redundant) then the pope has it in his power to destroy hell completely. If he was to say that hell does not exist, then in theory it would no longer exist. But this self same argument also denies free will in that if the pope can speak for god and have his every word or decree made true then I have no true free will as the pope can simply say that I am evil and going to hell and so be it.

 

And wouldn't a human who had it in his writ to banish ultimate evil himself be evil if he didn't banish it ?

 

Remind me why I don't believe this stuff again ??

[quankanne]

um, wugs, I only meant to point out that it wasn't a recent theory!

[quankanne]

pope is not, nor has every been God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit's representative on earth, but St. Peter's, the guy Jesus left in charge of things. He is the first bishop of Rome, and every bishop ordained from then on out claims a direct line to him via his own ordination.

 

as far as the pope having the power to declare something so (called "papal infallibility"), he cannot announce something willy-nilly just because he's Papa Grande and what he says, goes. Infallible teachings of a pope must not contradict sacred Tradition or Scripture. And pretty much must be vetted by the Vatican before it's pronounced as so. To date, infallibility has only been used twice: in 1854, when the dogma of the Immaculate Conception ("Mary conceived without sin") was declared, and in 1950, when the bodily assumption of the Blessed Mother was defined as an article of faith. Notice both deal with the mother of Jesus, not hell, not celibacy or anything else ... just clarifying the BVM's role in the history of the salvation of humanity.

 

all the other stuff has been decided, even as we continue to debate and delve further into those issues.

[wuggle]

um, wugs, I only meant to point out that it wasn't a recent theory!

 

Cool, no problems

 

pope is not, nor has every been God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit's representative on earth, but St. Peter's, the guy Jesus left in charge of things. He is the first bishop of Rome, and every bishop ordained from then on out claims a direct line to him via his own ordination.

 

as far as the pope having the power to declare something so (called "papal infallibility"), he cannot announce something willy-nilly just because he's Papa Grande and what he says, goes. Infallible teachings of a pope must not contradict sacred Tradition or Scripture. And pretty much must be vetted by the Vatican before it's pronounced as so. To date, infallibility has only been used twice: in 1854, when the dogma of the Immaculate Conception ("Mary conceived without sin") was declared, and in 1950, when the bodily assumption of the Blessed Mother was defined as an article of faith. Notice both deal with the mother of Jesus, not hell, not celibacy or anything else ... just clarifying the BVM's role in the history of the salvation of humanity.

 

all the other stuff has been decided, even as we continue to debate and delve further into those issues.

 

I stand corrected, I always though that the pope could do whatever he\she (can you imagine??) wanted as they were god's rep on earth. Doesn't really negate my point too much in that it still seems a bit convoluted, maybe even more so if he is allowed to bind in heaven that which he decrees but only if a load of other people agree as well

[quankanne]

I think the loosening/binding thing applies directly to forgiveness and sin, but I need to double check that with someone better grounded in theology than I ...

[clv0116]

The vast majority of Catholic theology (and protestant as well) has little to do with anything actually written in the Bible and a lot to do with using religion to govern.

 

I really think reading the Bible and the Koran at minimum should be required prior to high school graduation.

[wuggle]

I really think reading the Bible and the Koran at minimum should be required prior to high school graduation.

 

Agree, along with a proper study of Dawin\Dawkins, communist manifesto, works of Samual Adams , studies of Hinduism, Buddhism etc

 

But given that the last adminstration of US refused to accept evolution as anything more than a vague theory and not needed to be taught at school, I think you might have a problem with this. Hopefully the new adminsitration will be a little more sensible.

[NoIDidn't]

The vast majority of Catholic theology (and protestant as well) has little to do with anything actually written in the Bible and a lot to do with using religion to govern.

 

I really think reading the Bible and the Koran at minimum should be required prior to high school graduation.

 

I agree. I think that there is very little difference between Catholic theology and Protestant theology these days with the exception of a Pope and a central governing body.

 

I agree that it is used to govern than to instruct on living. Too many seem to want to live in a theocracy rather than a democracy.

[clv0116]

Agree, along with a proper study of Dawin\Dawkins, communist manifesto, works of Samual Adams , studies of Hinduism, Buddhism etc.

 

Not sure the really minority texts (in the US) would need to be must haves for the general requirement but at least reading the Bible and Koran as literature should be required. Marx would also be interesting.

 

But then we barely read anymore so I guess that's too little too late.