"When good people have affairs"

[Shadowcat]

Oops, I didn't notice there was a new page on the thread. Will read the new posts now.

[Owl]

Remember what the book is called: When Good People Have Affairs. He is a good man. I think this might very well be the issue here. That is why he has a problem ending his marriage. It is against his morals to have an affair. He had never expected that to ever happen to him. He does not want to hurt his wife whom he still loves.

 

Or do you think that he might be a "good man" who is engaged in a BAD BEHAVIOR THAT HE SEEKS TO CONTINUE???

 

A "good man" seeks to end his "bad behaviors". Is he making any real effort to do the right thing here, or is he seeking to keep both marriage and affair? Really...think about that...what is HE WORKING TO DO? Or is he simply trying to maintain the situation as it exists today?

[Shadowcat]

Owl, I must say I think you have been posting very considerately to me. I appreciate this. I have seen what you can be capable of in other threads. Thank you for showing me respect.

 

You Americans have every right to judge me by your moral values. My issue is that I did not realize what I was getting into. It was such a long time since I lived in the US, I did not understand that your morals differed so much from ours. Now I am finding myself as the other woman unable to get out of this relationship because of the strong attachment I have to MM. It is simply a cultural crash I did not foresee. He is held back by his morals in a way I did not see coming at all, since that is not the way we handle these issues here in my country.

 

Maybe it is a woman/man issue as well. He feels responsible for his family. This is important to him. He does not want his children to grow up in a broken home. As a woman, I could never not go with the man I loved. I would never have done what he does, because I would have left a long time ago. Actually I was still in a relationship when we first got in contact again, MM and I. From the start I was open to my ex boyfriend with my contact with MM. And eventually I ended my old relationship.

[Shadowcat]

Owl,

I believe he is coping as best as he can. If he can find a way out of this situation, he will take that path. He is being pulled apart at the moment. I agree with you that "a good man seeks to end his bad behaviors". Of course I worry sometimes that I think too much of him, but I do hope he will prove me right.

[Shadowcat]

Noforgiveness, it is not that simple. Our relationship took place before the time of Internet. We lost contact because I had moved when he sought me out. Internet made it possible for him to find me again.

[Shadowcat]

Thank you, Hipocrit, for your supportive words.

[Shadowcat]

jwi71,

Moving overseas would not be an issue to me. That is very easily done. I have no bond here that is stronger than my bond to him.

 

We tried to get two copies of the book. But the book seems to be sold out because there is soon to be a paperback copy available. So we have to share one book. In the extent he wants, we discuss what is in the book as he reads the chapters. There is much more for him to think about than for me. I can not tell him what conclusions to draw.

 

I know what kind of relationship I want with him. He knows what I want. Depending on whether he makes a decision or not, this will have an impact on me of course. I am struggling all the time what to do with this relationship if it remains as is.

 

Have I answered your questions now?

[pink smartie]

I avoided this website since I posted awhile back about getting involved with a man in the middle of a separation. He is still in my life and I feel like I am having an affair. He denies it but he still lives under the same roof with his wife.

 

I checked out the book "when good people have affairs" and I would like to thank you. The fact that he is a good person is what confuses me the most about the situation, along with the fact that I consider myself to be a highly moral invidual.

 

Thank you. The affair betwen us is new, so I feel it is too soon to mention the book to him. The book has helped me step away from guilt as the way to approach the situation. More importantly, it's given me a few pointers as to why he is getting involved in an affair right now. It's also given me a few pointers as to why I am getting involved into this kind of relationship. I hope knowing this will help me stay grounded and treat my relationship with him like I would treat any new relationship: with a discerning eye for compatibility.

 

In the end, like you, I want him to make the decision that's right for everyone involved.

 

I also am not from North America. Maybe this has something to do with it.

[Shadowcat]

Pinksmartie, I am glad that you also found the book supportive. Thank you for sharing.

[dobler33]

it is so difficult for people to believe sometimes that engaging in this sort of thing does not automatically make one a bad/irresponsible/insensitive/immoral person. and it IS what's confusing about this situation - that you cannot help but see the person who is cheating on their spouse as a good person, because you are in love with them. the truth is that everyone is capable of both heroic and cowardly acts, both intense tenderness and heartless insensitivity, both starved, greedy selfishness and selfless sacrifice. i see a lot of polarization happening here, right and wrong, moral and immoral. that is just not the way things go. the human psyche is a complex, winding, inscrutible thing, and thinking that we can separate the world into people who do good things and people who do bad things is a recipe for unhappiness. cat, your MM may well stay with his wife, and if he does you will be devastated and go through a period of being intensely angry at him, during which time it will be far less painful to think of him as a bad person than to sit with the pain of what you have lost. or he may leave her and stay with you, in which case she will go through the same process. these are the moments when we are most likely to polarize and split - when we are emotionally comprimised and therefore defending like mad. ambiguity is a terrifying thing. much less scary to make delineations: MP is wrong for cheating, OP is wrong for colluding, OP has no right to feel pain because BS is the legal proprietor of all feelings of betrayal by virtue of the marriage contract. or, to some of us in certain stages, MP is capable of no wrong, totally blameless, OP is fully justified in holding her/himself open in waiting for a decision from MP, BS is an obstructive non-entity who will just have to deal with themselves. how about: MP is human, has strayed for reasons known only to them. MP may be selfishly wanting cake and eating too, or may be genuinely torn between two people h/she loves very much and is struggling to make right what cannot possibly be made right. OP may be a manipulative hungry love addict who cannot find a relationship of their own and therefore seeks to destroy others, or may also be a totally moral human being who is experiencing emotions that h/she does not know how to deal with, and therefore makes some seriously bumbling errors. BS may be an absolutely innocent victim or may also have greatly contributed to the dynamic in which the affair begins to grow. there are no easy answers, and i suspect that in most cases it is all of the above; folks are admirable in love and deeply selfish about the keeping of it. love is the surest, quickest, shortest route to our most vulnerable places, and perfectly good and reputable people can easily act like squalling babies. the fact that you are on this site cat suggests that you are seeking answers, looking for the light in a truly stormy sky. it's the best we can do. i wish you well in protecting your heart while keeping it open to possibilities. it is nearly impossible, but we must all try.

[Gamine]

I have been both the BS and the WS earlier in life, mostly the BS. I have always believed in telling everything up front, in being honest. I will however not pass any judgement on my MM if his morals tell him not to. I will respect his decision.

 

Also in my country marriage and commitment are viewed differently than in the US. One only has a commitment to stay in a marriage as long as that relationship is one's primary love relationship. If the object of love changes, one is obligated to terminate the marriage and move on to the new relationship. A marriage vow is not for life here, only for as long as there is love to back it up.

 

 

Nonsense, Shadowcat. I am Swedish and nothing could be further from the truth. Then again, I was surrounded with people of more traditional value systems.

[sugarmomma]

it is so difficult for people to believe sometimes that engaging in this sort of thing does not automatically make one a bad/irresponsible/insensitive/immoral person. and it IS what's confusing about this situation - that you cannot help but see the person who is cheating on their spouse as a good person, because you are in love with them. the truth is that everyone is capable of both heroic and cowardly acts, both intense tenderness and heartless insensitivity, both starved, greedy selfishness and selfless sacrifice. i see a lot of polarization happening here, right and wrong, moral and immoral. that is just not the way things go. the human psyche is a complex, winding, inscrutible thing, and thinking that we can separate the world into people who do good things and people who do bad things is a recipe for unhappiness. cat, your MM may well stay with his wife, and if he does you will be devastated and go through a period of being intensely angry at him, during which time it will be far less painful to think of him as a bad person than to sit with the pain of what you have lost. or he may leave her and stay with you, in which case she will go through the same process. these are the moments when we are most likely to polarize and split - when we are emotionally comprimised and therefore defending like mad. ambiguity is a terrifying thing. much less scary to make delineations: MP is wrong for cheating, OP is wrong for colluding, OP has no right to feel pain because BS is the legal proprietor of all feelings of betrayal by virtue of the marriage contract. or, to some of us in certain stages, MP is capable of no wrong, totally blameless, OP is fully justified in holding her/himself open in waiting for a decision from MP, BS is an obstructive non-entity who will just have to deal with themselves. how about: MP is human, has strayed for reasons known only to them. MP may be selfishly wanting cake and eating too, or may be genuinely torn between two people h/she loves very much and is struggling to make right what cannot possibly be made right. OP may be a manipulative hungry love addict who cannot find a relationship of their own and therefore seeks to destroy others, or may also be a totally moral human being who is experiencing emotions that h/she does not know how to deal with, and therefore makes some seriously bumbling errors. BS may be an absolutely innocent victim or may also have greatly contributed to the dynamic in which the affair begins to grow. there are no easy answers, and i suspect that in most cases it is all of the above; folks are admirable in love and deeply selfish about the keeping of it. love is the surest, quickest, shortest route to our most vulnerable places, and perfectly good and reputable people can easily act like squalling babies. the fact that you are on this site cat suggests that you are seeking answers, looking for the light in a truly stormy sky. it's the best we can do. i wish you well in protecting your heart while keeping it open to possibilities. it is nearly impossible, but we must all try.

 

 

"I'm just a human" is no excuse. Without morals and standards for living, people will always remain unstable in their thinking and their behavior. Adultery causes unbearable pain.

 

The right thing to do in any situation like this is to have some integrity and respect and end the current relationship BEFORE starting a new one. Anything short of that really is heartless.

 

You are hearing this from a former OW.

 

I can be woman enough to admit that deep down I got a strange satisfaction out of the forbiddeness of being with him and had he left her I probably would have felt as if I had won something.

 

Glad I dropped him like a hot rock. Flippin cakeeater!!

[dobler33]

sugarmomma, i'd like to make clear that in no way have i suggested an excuse. as i've posted elsewhere, i know full well how painful affairs are. understanding the ambiguous and muddy reasons people do these things, trying to have compassion for the experience of all parties, seeing the humanity of each person involved is what i'm rooting for here. values and standards are important and for many of us a strong support in our daily lives, but there is no black and white. there is no such thing as "always" or "never".

[sugarmomma]

sugarmomma, i'd like to make clear that in no way have i suggested an excuse. as i've posted elsewhere, i know full well how painful affairs are. understanding the ambiguous and muddy reasons people do these things, trying to have compassion for the experience of all parties, seeing the humanity of each person involved is what i'm rooting for here. values and standards are important and for many of us a strong support in our daily lives, but there is no black and white. there is no such thing as "always" or "never".

 

 

We can agree to disagree, that's fine. I just hope to never allow my emotions to over rule my integrity and common sense ever again.

 

No relationship is ever worth that.

 

I understand that we're not pefect, but I do know right from wrong, its at the bottom of my heart.

 

My mother used to say "you can do the right thing wrong, but you can't do the wrong things right".

 

After the A, now I get it.

[boldjack]

Dobler, To say that there is no black and white or always or never is what enabling is all about. If standards of behavior didn't exist, then the value of behavior wouldn't exist. There most certainly IS black And white and absolutely there is honesty and dishonesty. While there is middle ground, without absolutes, where would that be?

[NoIDidn't]

Am I the only one that's thinking this guy is NOT reading the book? LOL.

 

Its a LDR, right?

 

This book might as well be named "When Good People Marry Bad People" from where I sit. It seems like its intended to make the MP feel that the marriage is bad and therefore must be abandoned.

 

I think this OP should read "Will He Really Leave Her for Me?" (I think that's the title) because she needs to be concerned with making her own decision about the AR if she is unhappy being the OW and he refuses to make a choice.

[dobler33]

boldjack - to quote sugarmomma, we can agree to disagree. i'm a psychoanalyst, and in my work i find that there are no absolutes, that most things are not either/or but both/and. we should always strive to follow our own standards and values. we should always strive to do what we think is right. but i can tell you from professional experience that there are no neat lines in the psyche. once again this in no way excuses my behavior. i know what i did right and what i did wrong. i'm just maintaining my position that "always" and "never" are things to shoot for, not the reality of the messy, muddy, incomprehensible world.

[NoIDidn't]

boldjack - to quote sugarmomma, we can agree to disagree. i'm a psychoanalyst, and in my work i find that there are no absolutes, that most things are not either/or but both/and. we should always strive to follow our own standards and values. we should always strive to do what we think is right. but i can tell you from professional experience that there are no neat lines in the psyche. once again this in no way excuses my behavior. i know what i did right and what i did wrong. i'm just maintaining my position that "always" and "never" are things to shoot for, not the reality of the messy, muddy, incomprehensible world.

 

Of course in the spirit of agreeing to disagree, but also of discussion, I offer this.

 

If everyone was a psychoanalyst who is simply called on to nonjudgmentally assess behaviors, then yes, there may not be absolutes as every action has a reaction of sorts.

[norajane]

Of course in the spirit of agreeing to disagree, but also of discussion, I offer this.

 

If everyone was a psychoanalyst who is simply called on to nonjudgmentally assess behaviors, then yes, there may not be absolutes as every action has a reaction of sorts.

 

However, those assessments won't help an OW/OM who has put her/his life on hold while waiting with baited breath for his/her MP to leave their spouse.

 

Life is too short to wait indefinitely for someone else's marriage to fall apart before you can be happy, and too short to wait for other couples to make decisions about what your future will be.

[boldjack]

Dobler, I don't care if you are a bus driver. If there are no absolutes, then how do you know where to set the standards? Without evil there is no good, without fiction there is no fact. Life is all about extremes and the graduations in between.

[Hi.P.O'Crit]

Dobler, I don't care if you are a bus driver. If there are no absolutes, then how do you know where to set the standards? Without evil there is no good, without fiction there is no fact. Life is all about extremes and the graduations in between.

 

For the same reasons fresh water freezes at zero Celsius. It was just chosen. You choose your standards. I choose mine. Others choose theirs. Most seem to choose roughly the same standards.

[NoIDidn't]

Dobler, I don't care if you are a bus driver. If there are no absolutes, then how do you know where to set the standards? Without evil there is no good, without fiction there is no fact. Life is all about extremes and the graduations in between.

 

A Red Light is a pretty big absolute, if she was a bus driver. LOL. Speed Limits are another matter. Maybe they are more like affairs - its all good until you get caught. LOL.

[NoIDidn't]

For the same reasons fresh water freezes at zero Celsius. It was just chosen.

 

This doesn't make any sense, to me. It seems you are saying that the fresh water actually chose to freeze at that temperature as if it could have done so at another?

 

As far as I know, physical laws don't choose themselves, they just exist as they are.

[NoIDidn't]

However, those assessments won't help an OW/OM who has put her/his life on hold while waiting with baited breath for his/her MP to leave their spouse.

 

Life is too short to wait indefinitely for someone else's marriage to fall apart before you can be happy, and too short to wait for other couples to make decisions about what your future will be.

 

Oh, I agree. I had more for that post, but decided not to post it. LOL.

 

But your post is a great non-moral example of how an affair is a poor choice, as in wrong.

 

Why waste your life waiting for someone else to do something? Life is certainly too short to give away your own free will for a prison.

[boldjack]

Hip, Water freezes at a certain temp, whether you call it 0 celsius, 32 fahrenheit or something else. Standards with out something to measure against are meaningless. If you don't know where you come from, then how do you know where you are going, or when you arrive?.............No more hijacking, Shadowcat, I promise. I think you have tried to resolve this dilema about as well as you could, given the cultural differences, and the LDR of this MM. I hope he reads your book but I hope that you realize that it might not make any difference, and prepare yourself for that outcome.