"When good people have affairs"

[Hi.P.O'Crit]

Bold, that's my point, it's arbitrarily chosen. Doesn't matter where you put the mark, so long as you put it somewhere that you're comfortable with your decision.

[boldjack]

Hip. The absolute is already there. The freezing point of water is not arbitrary. A "Standard" that is arbitrary is meaningless, and therefore Not a standard.

[Gamine]

Owl, I must say I think you have been posting very considerately to me. I appreciate this. I have seen what you can be capable of in other threads. Thank you for showing me respect.

 

You Americans have every right to judge me by your moral values. My issue is that I did not realize what I was getting into. It was such a long time since I lived in the US, I did not understand that your morals differed so much from ours. Now I am finding myself as the other woman unable to get out of this relationship because of the strong attachment I have to MM. It is simply a cultural crash I did not foresee. He is held back by his morals in a way I did not see coming at all, since that is not the way we handle these issues here in my country.

 

Maybe it is a woman/man issue as well. He feels responsible for his family. This is important to him. He does not want his children to grow up in a broken home. As a woman, I could never not go with the man I loved. I would never have done what he does, because I would have left a long time ago. Actually I was still in a relationship when we first got in contact again, MM and I. From the start I was open to my ex boyfriend with my contact with MM. And eventually I ended my old relationship.

 

 

Shadowcat, As a Swede I am taking offense of the picture you are painting of the Scandinavian 'free love' concept. This is a false statement concerning the Scandinavian culture as it may in fact just be your experience within your environs or how you have chosen to live your life and who and which reality you choose to surround yourself with. "American value systems" seemingly portrayed as being oppositional to the 'Scandinavian way'. Trust me, you are off base and you are making me feel ashamed of being Swedish. However, as the only other Scandinavian voice here I'm speaking out on behalf of the many traditional, moral people... from your neck of the woods who don't follow their hormones effortlessly from one partner to another. I find your account of the Scandinavian culture to be utterly absurd and off base.

[stillafool]

"her H"

 

I can't believe the way you Americans talk about spouses as possessions.

 

I am in no way making a decision about her life. He is (hopefully) making a decision about his life, which will have an impact on the lives of the women involved with him.

 

Who else's husband would he be than hers? How do women in your country refer to their spouses?

[Shadowcat]

Gamine,

I have spoken from my experience. You have spoken from yours. Apparently the Scandinavians are not a homogenous group. Good that you brought that to light. You might be of a different age group than me, a different social class, different amount of wealth, different job, different part of Sweden, what do I know? Do you live in Sweden now? Have you lived there for a long time?

 

Apparently we do not have the same view. This does not make my view or yours incorrect, just shows that the Scandinavians do not always have the same values and the same life experiences.

 

I have only been reading on Loveshack for about a month, but if I am not remembering wrong, I think I have been badly touched by your harsh posts. I take it you are a BS?

[Shadowcat]

Yes don't include the wife in the decision that you and her H will make about her life. Just wait until the last minute and hit her between the eyes with what you and her H have decided to do with her life.

 

Of course we refer to husbands and wives in the same way as you do. It is the bold print and the underlining which I reacted to.

[Shadowcat]

Dobler,

I think you described very well the complexity of these love triangles and the human beings involved.

[dobler33]

thanks, cat. i wish it were a lot simpler, but it's not. water freezes and i am not a bus driver, but that does not speak to the strangeness of human emotion and experience. you are causing pain, your MM is causing pain, just as i caused pain and my MM caused pain with our affair. i am sure you wish for a world in which this was not so. it is wrong to cause pain, but that is not the only relevant measure of things in this situation. looking back i wish i had done things differently. perhaps this will be your experience, perhaps not. i can say that i don't know too many cases when an affair turns into a lasting and healthy relationship. people told me that at the time and it didn't have any meaning to me. but nothing makes sense about this kind of situation. his wife forgave him, my husband forgave me, and yet his wife hates me and my husband hates him. this doesn't make any sense. he and i committed the same act of transgression, and yet it is easier and more comfortable for the two spouses to hate the other partner rather than their husband or wife. and that's fine, because it's how we're all going to heal from this trauma. merely one example of the nuttiness and unpredictability and total non-sensical nature of human emotions.

 

that being said, some things we do have better outcomes than others. having an affair does not, in my personal and professional experience, often have good outcomes. i wish you well with it - i hope you have a more positive experience and that the pain all round is minimal.

[boldjack]

Jeez, Dobler, I sort of wish that you were a bus driver. So what you're saying is that, apparently, your advice is as arbitrary as your "standards". Maybe, Cat, it would be better for all, if you TRY to take the honest route, that way if it all goes south, you can check your baggage at the door and try for a healthier relationship. JMHO.

[dobler33]

may i politely inquire about your experience as an OP, boldjack? or noididn't? or any of the folks who are sharing their ideas on moral absolutes with us? i can't tell if some of you have indeed been OP's before.

[boldjack]

I think I would best describe myself as a reformed serial cheater, or maybe ex sexual predator. Both of which I no longer do, and haven't for years,

[norajane]

may i politely inquire about your experience as an OP, boldjack? or noididn't? or any of the folks who are sharing their ideas on moral absolutes with us? i can't tell if some of you have indeed been OP's before.

 

I have been on all sides of the cheating equation. And, everyone always gets hurt, no matter which player you are. Unless you're the cheater and you don't get caught and end the affair when you get bored.

 

It's the deception and lying involved that is the cancer in all affairs.

[Gamine]

Gamine,

I have spoken from my experience. You have spoken from yours. Apparently the Scandinavians are not a homogenous group. Good that you brought that to light. You might be of a different age group than me, a different social class, different amount of wealth, different job, different part of Sweden, what do I know? Do you live in Sweden now? Have you lived there for a long time?

 

Apparently we do not have the same view. This does not make my view or yours incorrect, just shows that the Scandinavians do not always have the same values and the same life experiences.

 

I have only been reading on Loveshack for about a month, but if I am not remembering wrong, I think I have been badly touched by your harsh posts. I take it you are a BS?

 

 

You have made inference to the fact that the Scandinavian way of life is unilaterally as you have spoken and that is certainly not my experience. If anything it is the opposite. Very traditional value systems. I speak out in opposition to your posts because you have made the broad stroked statement of 'ours'. Don't throw all Scandinavians into your value system resulting in an inaccurate portrayal of an entire culture. Who here would have known otherwise had I not spoken? Everyone might have walked away with a completely skewed concept of an amazing culture. Frankly your free love attitude with no sexual boundaries tends to feed a stereotype American people have about Swedes. Not cool.

[Gamine]

We can agree to disagree, that's fine. I just hope to never allow my emotions to over rule my integrity and common sense ever again.

 

No relationship is ever worth that.

 

I understand that we're not pefect, but I do know right from wrong, its at the bottom of my heart.

 

My mother used to say "you can do the right thing wrong, but you can't do the wrong things right".

 

After the A, now I get it.

 

 

You and your mom are very wise women. When I was in my 20's I was an OW and didn't think twice about it. Sometimes through experience we grow a heart and garner wisdom.

 

I'll tell you what I really love about your posts, Sugarmomma... You tell it like it is and do not try to gloss over things. You speak of your journey and what you have learned from it. You have become a better person through and because of your life experiences. You have grown a heart.

 

It isn't so important how you learn, just that you do learn. In other words, we all 'do' things that perhaps aren't the most enlightened things on earth, but if we... as individuals can walk away from unenlightened behavior more enlightened... the hurt and destruction wasn't for nothing. It resulted in something good coming out of it. Awareness, growth, respect,.... new found ways of seeing things. Seeing them as mistakes, perhaps, but in the mistake learning why it was a mistake and transmuting it into becoming truly good.

 

Which, by the way, it sounds like you have. Thanks for sharing how we can look upon our actions, take responsibility for what they were, see them plainly and not gloss over them, and change our life for the better.

 

The difficulty I have with some posts lies in the lack of maturity. We can trip up, we can make choices that are selfish, we can hurt others, we can do a great many things that tear town our life and the lives of others. No one is impervious to screwing up.

 

But when we screw up why not just call an ace an ace and a spade a spade? Why not just say... I screwed up and learn from it instead of defending it, justifying it, wallowing in it, sounding more like a floundering fish than anything else.... when there is also the opportunity to grow and become enlightened by accepting responsibility for the entirety of the act.

 

There can be sympathy for the BS, the MM, and the OW/OM for the pain of a 'mistake', but when the error is construed as an "I can't help it I just have to love who I love" with no accountability, I believe those who believe this way are simply being immature and irresponsible with their life and the life of others.

 

The bottom line is this.... if you have hurt someone you have done wrong. Period. No justifications.

 

AND, and here is a big AND... you do not need to have what you want in life at someone else's expense.

 

Good for you Sugarmomma.

[Shadowcat]

So Scandanavians advocate sneaking and lying?

 

Where did that come from? On the contrary, I am saying that in my experience we are in Scandinavia prone to get a divorce rather than continuing on in an affair if we love another person than our spouse. Continuing a marriage whilst having a long term extramarital relationship is what promotes sneaking and lying.

[Shadowcat]

"Free love attitude with no sexual boundaries"? Can you please point out to any place where I promoted this. I am for having a monogamous intimate relationship. I am just saying that during one's life time the objects of one's love might switch, and unfortunately you might meet a new love before you have ended it with the prior one. My problem is when you then continue with both the old and the new partner and don't make a decision who to have a monogamous relationship with.

[Shadowcat]

The author of the book is American. So her opinions can not be said to represent Scandinavian values.

 

It is certainly not my choice to be hidden, nor to be the OW. MM is lying and sneaking around, I can agree on that, but it is not with my approval, so in no way can you say that this reflects on Scandinavian values. As I said I was completely open with my now ex with what was going on from start.

[Shadowcat]

Donnamaybe,

I admit there lies truth in what you are saying. However that just reflects on me personally, my actions, not the value set of my people. It also reflects on the complexity Dobler was talking about, how I who consider myself a good person can find myself caught up in a situation much more complicated than I have control over.

 

As I said, I never expected to become the OW. I expected him to leave his wife early on because of the strong emotions he held for me. Once I understood that was not the case, I was far too entangled emotionally to be able to cut myself loose. I am struggling every day to try to resolve this issue in one way or another. So far I have not succeeded.

[Shadowcat]

Well, I have given him the tools to make a decision. Whether he does that or not will show what integrity he has.

 

And yes, it does suck to be in this situation. You are right about that.

[Mimolicious]

Everyone has something called free will. Even the married man.

 

In the exercising of this free will he may choose to break his marriage contract with is wife to indulge in two woman. By choice.

 

He may choose to honor his marriage vow. He may choose to leave the marriage.

 

All free will.

 

He may choose to remain married because in the exercising of this free will he asserts that the financial and familial ties are too complex to simply walk away.

 

Again free will.

 

I assure you, your married man understands free will. It takes quite a bit of free will (and egotism) to maintain an affair. It also takes someone who really fundamentally is very much concerned with their own gratification and well being as they see it. A person in an affair, in other words, cares very much about the way they feel and are unusually focused on their needs being met.

 

I'm not going to make any judgments concerning how someone chooses to exercise free will in their life. However, I promise you that he knows what it is because he is doing precisely as he chooses.

 

Now, not unlike his wife, you are asking him to choose between you. She asked him to choose when they married and he explained (through the act of marriage) that he had chosen her. Now, you enter his life and now you are asking him to do that which he had already done with another woman. And, is likely telling his wife that she still is his choice by virtue of remaining in the marriage.

 

Basically, you are asking him to make a commitment to you while he is still committed to another woman. You are asking a man who has migrated to having chosen... to choosing two woman.... to now choose between the two of you. I promise you. He knows what making a choice is because he is married. The self help book is merely a way for you to explain to him that it doesn't mean that he is a bad boy if he loves you and chooses you over his wife.

 

Often times, but not always, MM already know about choice and marriage ... and... choose the affair because it makes their world go 'round. Again a choice. Not necessarily an uplifting choice to the lives of the women involved, but a choice nonetheless.

 

Sometimes MM get the whole thing of choice but want to have their cake and eat it too... and enjoy having the best of both worlds.

 

 

Where were you when I needed you? LOL!

[Mimolicious]

Interestingly enough the author of this book thinks one should not tell the wife in order to not inflict unnecessary pain. This point of view is a major reason why my MM is receptive to reading the book, since it is his view as well.

 

Whether his wife understands it or not, I think it is in her best interest that a choice is made. This way neither she nor I will have to share a man.

 

 

And I have a feeling that choice would be sweet if he decides to be with you. What about if he decides that you are bad for his health and ditches you. Are you going to be receptive to it and keep it humble? (just wondering)

[pink smartie]

 

I'll tell you what I really love about your posts, Sugarmomma... You tell it like it is and do not try to gloss over things. You speak of your journey and what you have learned from it. You have become a better person through and because of your life experiences. You have grown a heart.

 

It isn't so important how you learn, just that you do learn. In other words, we all 'do' things that perhaps aren't the most enlightened things on earth, but if we... as individuals can walk away from unenlightened behavior more enlightened... the hurt and destruction wasn't for nothing. It resulted in something good coming out of it. Awareness, growth, respect,.... new found ways of seeing things. Seeing them as mistakes, perhaps, but in the mistake learning why it was a mistake and transmuting it into becoming truly good.

 

 

You might be surprised to hear that this is actually the argument the author makes in the book. The author believes that most people aim to do good and wind up in affairs on their way to learning about themselves and about love. She doesn't deny that affairs hurt and that they hurt a lot of people. She herself was a BS and is now a marriage counsellor.

 

She argues that since her clients, mostly MPs in difficult marriages, get into affairs, she cannot help them by passing a moral judgement on them. She feels she can better help them by accepting them and guiding them along.

 

Those of you who feel that the book is biased towards OPs are completely wrong. She in fact encourages the WS to better understand the motivation that led them to an affair so as to better understand themselves and their marriages. Once they have done that, she guides them along the road of deciding what they feel is best for everyone.

[Mimolicious]

I have been both the BS and the WS earlier in life, mostly the BS. I have always believed in telling everything up front, in being honest. I will however not pass any judgement on my MM if his morals tell him not to. I will respect his decision.

 

Also in my country marriage and commitment are viewed differently than in the US. One only has a commitment to stay in a marriage as long as that relationship is one's primary love relationship. If the object of love changes, one is obligated to terminate the marriage and move on to the new relationship. A marriage vow is not for life here, only for as long as there is love to back it up.

 

I am sorry, but where do you live? I fairy land??? To end a marriage because it is no longer a "love relationship" doesnt necessarily translate into ending a marriage because of having an "affair" (which is what the 2 of you are doing). Moving onto a "new relationship" doesnt cut it either. He is not "moving on" he is "cheating" on his wife. That is not "moving on". I highly doubt that in your country it is an "OBLIGATION" to end a marriage for the facts that you are stating. Here in the good ole' USA, we live in a more 'free spirit' society than still many parts of the world, where there are more traditional cultures based on different factors (religion, social, economical, etc...).

[Mimolicious]

"her H"

 

I can't believe the way you Americans talk about spouses as possessions.

 

I am in no way making a decision about her life. He is (hopefully) making a decision about his life, which will have an impact on the lives of the women involved with him.

 

Sweety, that is who he is ... Her husband. What do you call him when you refer to him? Your boyfriend?

[Gamine]

Owl, I must say I think you have been posting very considerately to me. I appreciate this. I have seen what you can be capable of in other threads. Thank you for showing me respect.

 

You Americans have every right to judge me by your moral values. My issue is that I did not realize what I was getting into. It was such a long time since I lived in the US, I did not understand that your morals differed so much from ours. Now I am finding myself as the other woman unable to get out of this relationship because of the strong attachment I have to MM. It is simply a cultural crash I did not foresee. He is held back by his morals in a way I did not see coming at all, since that is not the way we handle these issues here in my country.

 

Maybe it is a woman/man issue as well. He feels responsible for his family. This is important to him. He does not want his children to grow up in a broken home. As a woman, I could never not go with the man I loved. I would never have done what he does, because I would have left a long time ago. Actually I was still in a relationship when we first got in contact again, MM and I. From the start I was open to my ex boyfriend with my contact with MM. And eventually I ended my old relationship.

 

 

Shadowcat, in this post you are discussing how the Scandinavian culture and the American culture view marriage differently and elude to a 'culture clash'. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you from the above post. I have no interest in creating a friction over this, however I do have a hard time with characterizing the Scandinavian people as casually moving in and out of marriages. The Swedes I know are married for very long periods of time, are successful, are mature, attend church, and are very traditional. Are you of Swedish/Scandinavian bloodline or are you simply living in Sweden?