"When good people have affairs"

[Shadowcat]

And I have a feeling that choice would be sweet if he decides to be with you. What about if he decides that you are bad for his health and ditches you. Are you going to be receptive to it and keep it humble? (just wondering)

 

One of the major things I took with me from that book was to respect MM's decision. The author shows a very thorough way of going about making the choice between the two women, and how to make the decision regret proof. How for the MM to not indulge in explanations to the BS/OW of why and what if. Once you realize that such a thoroughly made decision is nothing to discuss, that you can have no impact on it, there is nothing left to do other than to grieve it if it did not have the outcome you wished for. I truly hope I will be strong enough to respect whatever he decides. I am hoping you all here on Loveshack will support me and help me get through this.

[Gamine]

You might be surprised to hear that this is actually the argument the author makes in the book. The author believes that most people aim to do good and wind up in affairs on their way to learning about themselves and about love. She doesn't deny that affairs hurt and that they hurt a lot of people. She herself was a BS and is now a marriage counsellor.

 

She argues that since her clients, mostly MPs in difficult marriages, get into affairs, she cannot help them by passing a moral judgement on them. She feels she can better help them by accepting them and guiding them along.

 

Those of you who feel that the book is biased towards OPs are completely wrong. She in fact encourages the WS to better understand the motivation that led them to an affair so as to better understand themselves and their marriages. Once they have done that, she guides them along the road of deciding what they feel is best for everyone.

 

Critical in my post is the very real qualification that one learns from their actions and DECIDES through purpose backed by conviction to DO NO HARM. Generally speaking, a man or woman may be in a vulnerable period in a marriage that could have simply worked itself out but for the interference from another party. The other party exasperates things. Granted, the married person is the one inviting them into the TRIANGLE, however if the OP were not willing to violate the life of another human being in order to have someone in their life... no one would ever get hurt. There are plenty of fish in the sea... and quite frankly I think MM and MW are so darn alluring simply because of the sexual tension created over NOT BEING ABLE TO... or the struggle in winning someone over from someone else.

[Mimolicious]

You and your mom are very wise women. When I was in my 20's I was an OW and didn't think twice about it. Sometimes through experience we grow a heart and garner wisdom.

 

I'll tell you what I really love about your posts, Sugarmomma... You tell it like it is and do not try to gloss over things. You speak of your journey and what you have learned from it. You have become a better person through and because of your life experiences. You have grown a heart.

 

It isn't so important how you learn, just that you do learn. In other words, we all 'do' things that perhaps aren't the most enlightened things on earth, but if we... as individuals can walk away from unenlightened behavior more enlightened... the hurt and destruction wasn't for nothing. It resulted in something good coming out of it. Awareness, growth, respect,.... new found ways of seeing things. Seeing them as mistakes, perhaps, but in the mistake learning why it was a mistake and transmuting it into becoming truly good.

 

Which, by the way, it sounds like you have. Thanks for sharing how we can look upon our actions, take responsibility for what they were, see them plainly and not gloss over them, and change our life for the better.

 

The difficulty I have with some posts lies in the lack of maturity. We can trip up, we can make choices that are selfish, we can hurt others, we can do a great many things that tear town our life and the lives of others. No one is impervious to screwing up.

 

But when we screw up why not just call an ace an ace and a spade a spade? Why not just say... I screwed up and learn from it instead of defending it, justifying it, wallowing in it, sounding more like a floundering fish than anything else.... when there is also the opportunity to grow and become enlightened by accepting responsibility for the entirety of the act.

 

There can be sympathy for the BS, the MM, and the OW/OM for the pain of a 'mistake', but when the error is construed as an "I can't help it I just have to love who I love" with no accountability, I believe those who believe this way are simply being immature and irresponsible with their life and the life of others.

 

The bottom line is this.... if you have hurt someone you have done wrong. Period. No justifications.

 

AND, and here is a big AND... you do not need to have what you want in life at someone else's expense.

 

Good for you Sugarmomma.

 

I HEART you!

[Gamine]

I HEART you!

 

I HEART you back!

[pink smartie]

Critical in my post is the very real qualification that one learns from their actions and DECIDES through purpose backed by conviction to DO NO HARM. Generally speaking, a man or woman may be in a vulnerable period in a marriage that could have simply worked itself out but for the interference from another party. The other party exasperates things. Granted, the married person is the one inviting them into the TRIANGLE, however if the OP were not willing to violate the life of another human being in order to have someone in their life... no one would ever get hurt. There are plenty of fish in the sea... and quite frankly I think MM and MW are so darn alluring simply because of the sexual tension created over NOT BEING ABLE TO... or the struggle in winning someone over from someone else.

 

I agree that in an ideal world we would all save each other from harm. I disagree, however, that if OW/OM didn't exist, no one would ever get hurt. Affairs happen when marriages are in trouble.

 

I will refer to the author who makes the argument that most affairs happen because marriages are in difficulty and not the opposite. She believes that both spouses have a responsibility in the marriage difficulties. She says that affairs can sometimes help the WS get insight into what those difficulties are and help her guide the married couple in resolving the issues.

 

She's worked with a lot of people who gained insight from their affairs and returned to their marriage to make it stronger.

[Mimolicious]

One of the major things I took with me from that book was to respect MM's decision. The author shows a very thorough way of going about making the choice between the two women, and how to make the decision regret proof. How for the MM to not indulge in explanations to the BS/OW of why and what if. Once you realize that such a thoroughly made decision is nothing to discuss, that you can have no impact on it, there is nothing left to do other than to grieve it if it did not have the outcome you wished for. I truly hope I will be strong enough to respect whatever he decides. I am hoping you all here on Loveshack will support me and help me get through this.

 

 

I hope you are strong as well, wish you luck. I mean, the decison could be to stay with you and he can go deceiving you as well. Sounds to me like this is not a first timer for your "American Boy". LOL!

[Shadowcat]

Shadowcat, in this post you are discussing how the Scandinavian culture and the American culture view marriage differently and elude to a 'culture clash'. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you from the above post. I have no interest in creating a friction over this, however I do have a hard time with characterizing the Scandinavian people as casually moving in and out of marriages. The Swedes I know are married for very long periods of time, are successful, are mature, attend church, and are very traditional. Are you of Swedish/Scandinavian bloodline or are you simply living in Sweden?

 

 

The Swedes you know attend church? !!! Okay, where do you find that kind of Swedes? Oh, in the free churches (frikyrkorna), right? Just about the only place in Sweden where you still can find anybody religious.

 

Let's just agree that we move in very different circles here in Sweden. you and I. That does not mean that either one of us is incorrect in stating their experience. Having more than one person state their view adds to understanding the whole.

 

And yes, if you must know, I am of Swedish/Danish bloodline and have lived in Sweden for 46 out of my 50 years.

 

And I am not talking about Swedes "casually moving in and out of marriages". I am talking about the fact that it is now talked about the probability of people having 4 or 5 primary relationships during their lifetime. I can't remember where I read that, but I did read it. In my case this is my third. I was with my first boyfriend for 5 years, with the father of my children for 25 years, and now I am on the fourth year with my MM.

 

I cannot help but feel that you are twisting my words. What happened with "free love attitude with no sexual boundaries"? Where did that come from?

 

The culture crash I have referred to is very real to me. It has affected me severely since MM and I took up contact. And yes, his family has lived in the US "forever", and are also of West European origin. Could you please respect that this is my reality even if it might not be yours? This culture crash has been very painful to me and still is.

[Shadowcat]

I hope you are strong as well, wish you luck. I mean, the decison could be to stay with you and he can go deceiving you as well. Sounds to me like this is not a first timer for your "American Boy". LOL!

 

Thanks for the well wishes! However I assure you that this is not only MM's first timer, it is his "only timer". He will never do this again, he has learnt from this experience how much it costs and tears you apart to have an extramarital relationship. As have I of how much it costs to be the OW.

[Gamine]

The Swedes you know attend church? !!! Okay, where do you find that kind of Swedes? Oh, in the free churches (frikyrkorna), right? Just about the only place in Sweden where you still can find anybody religious.

 

Let's just agree that we move in very different circles here in Sweden. you and I. That does not mean that either one of us is incorrect in stating their experience. Having more than one person state their view adds to understanding the whole.

 

And yes, if you must know, I am of Swedish/Danish bloodline and have lived in Sweden for 46 out of my 50 years.

 

And I am not talking about Swedes "casually moving in and out of marriages". I am talking about the fact that it is now talked about the probability of people having 4 or 5 primary relationships during their lifetime. I can't remember where I read that, but I did read it. In my case this is my third. I was with my first boyfriend for 5 years, with the father of my children for 25 years, and now I am on the fourth year with my MM.

 

I cannot help but feel that you are twisting my words. What happened with "free love attitude with no sexual boundaries"? Where did that come from?

 

The culture crash I have referred to is very real to me. It has affected me severely since MM and I took up contact. And yes, his family has lived in the US "forever", and are also of West European origin. Could you please respect that this is my reality even if it might not be yours? This culture crash has been very painful to me and still is.

 

 

Okay, Shadowcat... Since you were married to a man for 25 years put the shoe on the other foot. How would you counsel your very own husband if he found himself in a similar situation? And, would it be as enigmatic as the self help book proclaims?

[Reggie]

Owl, I must say I think you have been posting very considerately to me. I appreciate this. I have seen what you can be capable of in other threads. Thank you for showing me respect.

 

You Americans have every right to judge me by your moral values. My issue is that I did not realize what I was getting into. It was such a long time since I lived in the US, I did not understand that your morals differed so much from ours. Now I am finding myself as the other woman unable to get out of this relationship because of the strong attachment I have to MM. It is simply a cultural crash I did not foresee. He is held back by his morals in a way I did not see coming at all, since that is not the way we handle these issues here in my country.

 

Maybe it is a woman/man issue as well. He feels responsible for his family. This is important to him. He does not want his children to grow up in a broken home. As a woman, I could never not go with the man I loved. I would never have done what he does, because I would have left a long time ago. Actually I was still in a relationship when we first got in contact again, MM and I. From the start I was open to my ex boyfriend with my contact with MM. And eventually I ended my old relationship.

 

I don't understand your logic. On the one hand, you say that in Scandanavia affairs are uncommon because when love ends, divorce takes place.Hence, very few affairs.

But, then you go on to say that his actions do no violate the values of your country. However, clearly, he is having an affair, which you claim is rare, and clearly he is not ending his marriage prior to involvement.

So, he is not acting in the same fashion as is acceptable in your country. If he ended his marriage and then became involved with you, that is exactly the same thing that is acceptable in The U.S.

Myabe I am missing something. But, it seems the values in Scandanavia are the same as in the U.S. and that your MM is violating the values of both.

Can you explain this?

[datura_noir]

Don't people in Scandinavia take breaks (longer than 6 months)between relationships/dating? Are they like monkeys, swinging from vine to vine, not letting go of one until there is another firmly at hand?

[Reggie]

Correct me if I am wrong. But, at one point didn't you represent that the view you are espousing represent the predominant view of Scandanavians, SC?

But, then, in response to Gamine's assertions that it does not, you acknowledge that the Swedes are not a homogenous group and that other views are widespread?

Which is it? These statements are inconsistent.

[pink smartie]

Correct me if I am wrong. But, at one point didn't you represent that the view you are espousing represent the predominant view of Scandanavians, SC?

But, then, in response to Gamine's assertions that it does not, you acknowledge that the Swedes are not a homogenous group and that other views are widespread?

Which is it? These statements are inconsistent.

 

As someone interested in the topic, I fail to see how this is relevant.

[Reggie]

As someone interested in the topic, I fail to see how this is relevant.

 

Just trying to get a handle on what her country's view is on this, for context. Not really concerned with your impressions re relevance.

[Mino]

Shadowcat, in this post you are discussing how the Scandinavian culture and the American culture view marriage differently and elude to a 'culture clash'. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you from the above post. I have no interest in creating a friction over this, however I do have a hard time with characterizing the Scandinavian people as casually moving in and out of marriages. The Swedes I know are married for very long periods of time, are successful, are mature, attend church, and are very traditional. Are you of Swedish/Scandinavian bloodline or are you simply living in Sweden?

Ok, what shadowcat is saying IS that not just in sweden, but I would throw in the rest of Europe, people are quicker to get a D. If a couple is having marriage problems, and one partner meets someone eles, they D their S quickly verses like an american, who rather sneak around for years decieving the S, Family, friends, ...ect. Europeans are more blunt, open.... they dont "hide " well. " Their "porn industry is open... Here people talk it down, but still look at it behind "CLOSED doors in secret. ... as long as no one see, its ok, attitude. So I think this crosses over to A as well. As long as nobody knows, its ok.... instead of making a decision to say, Oh, my M is in trouble, I better work on it with my S, Or I lay my cards on the table and set my S free. I guess it the puritans belief that is lingering in the forfront of americans belief system. I rather be upfront and deal with truth...

[datura_noir]

The "American" view comes from a mixture of many different cultures-not so homogenous as Europeans....but, just wait until the Muslim culture predominates in Europe in about 100-200 years; polygamy will be widely touted as the norm.....maybe??? Countries cultures vary according to their populace.

[Reggie]

Ok, what shadowcat is saying IS that not just in sweden, but I would throw in the rest of Europe, people are quicker to get a D. If a couple is having marriage problems, and one partner meets someone eles, they D thier S quickly verses like an american, who rather sneak around for years decieving the S, Family, friends, ...ect. Europeans are more blunt, open.... we dont "hide " well. Our "porn industry is open... Here people talk it down, but look at behind "CLOSED doors... as long as no one see me, its ok, attitude. So I think this crosses over to A as well. As long as nobody know, its ok.... instead of making a decision to say, Oh, my M is in trouble, I better work on it with my S, Or I lay my cards on the table and set my S free. I guess it the puritans belief that is lingering in the forfront of americans belief system. I rather be upfront and deal with truth...

 

Yes, but this affair, according to SC, has been ongoing for 4 years. So, their behaviors conflict with her own stated values. Sounds like a decent lenght of sneaking to me.

I see nothing to be proud of in simply abandoning a marriage if it has some problems. Are the vows different in the ceremonies in Europe? I would bet not.

[pink smartie]

Just trying to get a handle on what her country's view is on this, for context. Not really concerned with your impressions re relevance.

 

She stipulated what her network's view was on this. Why isn't that sufficient? I just don't think she has to stand trial here on this detail. My opinion only and of course you are welcomed to dimiss it and continue attacking the OP's credibility on details just so you get the "context" right.

 

 

Since she was the one who brought it up and another poster found her statements conflicting, why shouldn't he ask?

 

She has clarified that point over and over again. Does she really need to defend herself on the mores in her country once again? Why aren't people questionning Gamine on her perception of Swedes then?

[Mino]

Yes, but this affair, according to SC, has been ongoing for 4 years. So, their behaviors conflict with her own stated values. Sounds like a decent lenght of sneaking to me.

I see nothing to be proud of in simply abandoning a marriage if it has some problems. Are the vows different in the ceremonies in Europe? I would bet not.

They do leave out the "till death part:rolleyes:

[Reggie]

I think it is somewhat important since she cites the view of her country as the basis for justfiying her actions. It's the old "shifting sands do not a firm foundation make" method of challenging an allegation. Works great on cross, for the most part.

[Reggie]

They do leave out the "till death part:rolleyes:

 

So, the fidelity part is in there, then?

[Reggie]

She stipulated what her network's view was on this. Why isn't that sufficient? I just don't think she has to stand trial here on this detail. My opinion only and of course you are welcomed to dimiss it and continue attacking the OP's credibility on details just so you get the "context" right.

 

 

 

 

She has clarified that point over and over again. Does she really need to defend herself on the mores in her country once again? Why aren't people questionning Gamine on her perception of Swedes then?

 

Question away, ps. I suspect you are overmatched, though.

[pink smartie]

Question away, ps. I suspect you are overmatched, though.

 

you suspect I am overmatched? On what grounds pray you?

 

I sincerely do not see the relevance of questionning the OP on questions of nationhood. Do you mean to tell me you believe ALL Americans share the same values? Sure, she made the mistake first by describing her network's understanding or relationship as the Scandinavian way. Gamine corrected it and Shadowcat nuanced her view. My experience of Scandinavian countries does tell me that the truth lies somewhere in between Gamine's and Shadowcat's experience. Neither of them can generalize their view of relationship as being the view of all Scandinavians.

 

I feel that harping on these details are just a way to attack the OP and offer very little in terms of guidance.

[Shadowcat]

Okay, Shadowcat... Since you were married to a man for 25 years put the shoe on the other foot. How would you counsel your very own husband if he found himself in a similar situation? And, would it be as enigmatic as the self help book proclaims?

 

I have never been married, but as I said before I have been the betrayed girlfriend. He was a serial cheater, and during some of his affairs he was seriously in love with the OW. He ended our relationship twice because of other women, and then later returned to me, when he realized the bond to me was stronger. Eventually he stopped with this cheating behavior. I know what it means to be the BS.

 

If I put myself in the BS of my MM's shoes knowing what I know about MM's and my relationship and the strong emotions we harbor for each other, I would still want the MM to go through this decision process so he could hopefully find out that I, the BS, was his true love and give 100% to our marriage, since that is not possible as long as he still has emotions for the OW.

[Mimolicious]

Thanks for the well wishes! However I assure you that this is not only MM's first timer, it is his "only timer". He will never do this again, he has learnt from this experience how much it costs and tears you apart to have an extramarital relationship. As have I of how much it costs to be the OW.

 

 

NEVER SAY NEVER! Besides, nothing in life is guaranteed!