"When good people have affairs"

[Dexter Morgan]

First you say things like:

 

I am so enriched because of God's love and my life guided by such understanding and compassion.

 

Then you say this:

 

 

I did not give a crap about his wife. I did not really give a crap how I complicated his life by my being a seductress.

 

so does the following mean that you have turned over a new leaf and would never be so unfeeling again, or seduce someone elses husband?

 

 

I believe that we have a duty to do no harm. I do not want anything at anyone else's expense and cannot justify having anything if it has brought someone else pain and darkness in their life.

[OWoman]

Anybody read and/or have any experience of family therapist Mira Kirshenbaum's book "When Good People Have Affairs: Inside the Hearts and Minds of People in Two Relationships"? Mira guides the MM through the process of making a decision which woman to choose. I have given this book to my MM who seems to be pretty hopeful that it might make a difference in our relationship.

 

I am so sick and tired of being the other woman, so this book is my last hope. If things don't change after he has read it, I have decided to try to end our relationship.

 

SC, I haven't read that book but have heard good things about it. It has also been very positively reviewed by critics and in the media.

 

I disagree with some posters that giving MM a book is not going to achieve anything. I gave my H (then my MM) a book that someone (a BS...) recommended and it did help clarify things for him, in that he recognised patterns and structures in his M that were deeply unhealthy, and discussed those with his counsellor. Reading the book may not have the same effect on your MM, but it certainly can have an effect if he's receptive to thinking critically and openly about his situation - if only to have what he's feeling inside "normalised" and validated, named and acknowledged so that he can understand how it all hangs together. Right up close, in the immediacy of it all, it's sometimes just too intense to make sense of.

 

Good luck - I hope things work out for you.

[stillafool]

One of the major things I took with me from that book was to respect MM's decision. The author shows a very thorough way of going about making the choice between the two women, and how to make the decision regret proof. How for the MM to not indulge in explanations to the BS/OW of why and what if. Once you realize that such a thoroughly made decision is nothing to discuss, that you can have no impact on it, there is nothing left to do other than to grieve it if it did not have the outcome you wished for. I truly hope I will be strong enough to respect whatever he decides. I am hoping you all here on Loveshack will support me and help me get through this.

 

 

I thought this was a very natural transition in your country and accepted by all. Also you said you had the support from your friends and family. Not that we aren't here for you but your situation does not sound like that of most OW who come to this board. They do not have the outside support that you claim to have for your affair.

[Dexter Morgan]

Yes, he is a great guy, but not a perfect guy, he does lie and cheat to his wife, which I agree is a big nono in my world as well.

 

If he lies to and cheats on his wife, then no, he isn't a great guy. He is a cheater, liar, and betrayer. He is no prize...at least not to a decent woman.

[stillafool]

When my ex fell in love with another woman during our relationship, I was devastated not because she had stolen something from me or that he had betrayed me, but because he loved another women not me. I did not want to live any longer, because I did not have his love anymore. I grieved the loss of his love. This is what I can't get my head around, how anyone can think a person belongs to them just through marriage, how anyone can talk about the OP as taking something that is not theirs.

 

 

Was your ex your husband or boyfriend? Also do you believe in marriage? If you believe in marriage why would one get married unless they wanted to be completely exclusive with another person. Why would they stand up together in front of God, family and friends and repeat vows to only belong to each other if that wasn't what marriage is about. I'm sorry but you just don't make sense.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence. I have been a cheater and a betrayed gf but not a BS. I was very young (early 20's) and learned my lesson. I never cheated with a MM before so I don't know that aspect of cheating. That has always been off limits for me. We have a choice to cheat or not to cheat. When I am around someone's h and I feel chemistry I immediately redirect my attention. We all have the power of choice in those matters so the "I couldn't help myself" excuse just doesn't fly with me. Besides, I was always insulted if a MM hit on me because I thought they viewed me as a "ho" and I don't like that.

[Shadowcat]

I thought this was a very natural transition in your country and accepted by all. Also you said you had the support from your friends and family. Not that we aren't here for you but your situation does not sound like that of most OW who come to this board. They do not have the outside support that you claim to have for your affair.

 

Having the support of others who have been where I have been is something I find greatly helpful, whatever the issue. Although I had the support of my friends and family, I felt the need to go to Al-Anon for 8 years. Although I had the support of my friends and family, I felt the need to be a member of a medical patient forum when I was treating for a serious illness. That is why I come here, to discuss and support/get support of others who know what it is like to be in a love triangle.

[Shadowcat]

Was your ex your husband or boyfriend? Also do you believe in marriage? If you believe in marriage why would one get married unless they wanted to be completely exclusive with another person. Why would they stand up together in front of God, family and friends and repeat vows to only belong to each other if that wasn't what marriage is about. I'm sorry but you just don't make sense.

 

I have been on both sides of the fence. I have been a cheater and a betrayed gf but not a BS. I was very young (early 20's) and learned my lesson. I never cheated with a MM before so I don't know that aspect of cheating. That has always been off limits for me. We have a choice to cheat or not to cheat. When I am around someone's h and I feel chemistry I immediately redirect my attention. We all have the power of choice in those matters so the "I couldn't help myself" excuse just doesn't fly with me. Besides, I was always insulted if a MM hit on me because I thought they viewed me as a "ho" and I don't like that.

 

My ex was my boyfriend for 25 years. "Pojkvän" has another connotation in Swedish than it does in English, as does the Swedish word for lover: "älskare". MM and I have discussed this cultural difference, how it shows up in the words of the languages. It has affected us now and then in our discussions. We just are not talking about the same things, although it sounds like we are.

 

My ex is the father of my children. We belonged to a generation when it was very common not to get married here in Sweden. I believe in committing to a relationship as long as there is love to back it up. I am a very loyal and very faithful person.

 

Believe me, I too have learned my lesson, and will immediately redirect my attention away from MM in the future if there is any sign of chemistry.

[Reggie]

The above are examples of the wordtwisting going on here.

 

Yes, he is a great guy, but not a perfect guy, he does lie and cheat to his wife, which I agree is a big nono in my world as well.

 

I am not going to go there about the Swedes, because I have said nothing like the above at all.

 

Neither have I said anything about LDR not being longterm affairs. I don't know where you get these things from. Of course we are in a longterm affair, MM and I. This is what I said, with the emphasize on him being American and the culture crash:

 

"Did you miss out that I am in a LDR with an American who lives in America? Thus my problem. Thus the culture crash. Of course his behavior conflicts with my values, that's my problem. That's why I am trying to do something about it."

 

I am starting to wonder why you have so obvious problems understanding my posts. Is my English that bad or is it your reading comprehension, because you could not purposely be twisting my words now, could you?

 

I just cannot make sense of a lot of the stuff you are saying, SC. Like if this is against your values, why you continue in it. Or how a guy that lies and hurts his wife like this is still considered a great guy. No one is perfect, but this type of abusive behavior is many standard deviations from perfect.

I also do not get how your boyfriend betraying you was not painful. Seems that that type of betrayal has to hurt.

I'm not from Sweden. But, it is hard for me to imagine that they feel it is okay to simply dump one's spouse if one feels in love with someone else. How can someone fall in love with someone else without betraying the spouse or breaking vows? Makes no sense to me. It's not like a person cannot control falling in love. It takes time and cultivation and those things are clearly within one's control.

[Gamine]

Gam. Depending on how good of a pastry chef you are, I might kiss you on the nose as well. Can you make sweet potato pie?BTW, during my (all too brief) visit to Stockholm, I had occasion to meet Swedes from all socio-economic groups. I found them to be well-educated, generous, moral, and amusing. The stereotypical Swedes, depressed Bergmannesque vikings, or Big-boobed, blonde, sex-kittens, I found few of. It's a fine country.

 

 

Hi BoldJack! Yes, I make the most wonderful pies and it happens to be my favorite. Sweet potato pie... absolutely. My favorite is my pumpkin pie with pecan crust.

 

Thanks for showing up and for bringing a smile to my face!

[Shadowcat]

I just cannot make sense of a lot of the stuff you are saying, SC. Like if this is against your values, why you continue in it. Or how a guy that lies and hurts his wife like this is still considered a great guy. No one is perfect, but this type of abusive behavior is many standard deviations from perfect.

I also do not get how your boyfriend betraying you was not painful. Seems that that type of betrayal has to hurt.

I'm not from Sweden. But, it is hard for me to imagine that they feel it is okay to simply dump one's spouse if one feels in love with someone else. How can someone fall in love with someone else without betraying the spouse or breaking vows? Makes no sense to me. It's not like a person cannot control falling in love. It takes time and cultivation and those things are clearly within one's control.

 

Reggie,

I actually appreciated this post of yours. This post is constructive. You are telling that you cannot understand where I am at. I respect that.

[Reggie]

I think we can all agree, pie is good. One of my fantasies, early on after discovering my XWW was cheating with two men while I was at work, was to buy a nice Cocunut Cream Pie, and smush it into her face(violent, I know. But , Cagney used a grapefruit. Acetic acid is bad for the skin and eyes). I still might do it, when the kids are grown and I have the means to flee the country.

[Gamine]

First you say things like:

 

 

 

Then you say this:

 

 

 

 

so does the following mean that you have turned over a new leaf and would never be so unfeeling again, or seduce someone elses husband?

 

 

I was a self centered, narcissistic, 20 year old enjoying what I believed to be my freedom. I 'believed in God' but had yet to grow a heart of a real live woman. I was a total idiot rationalizing away anything and everything. As long as it served me and my interests I was down with it.

 

Then I grew up. I took accountability for who I am now and where I progressed from. I was never a low life, but I certainly was 'all about me'.

 

Now, I'd rather be taken out back and shot before I bring harm onto any living thing. I am happy that I have evolved into something more than I was rather than allowing circumstance to drive me to believe I am justified and doing as I please. But strangely, I am doing as I please by not....

 

Thanks for asking about these points.

[clv0116]

Those are f'd up situations, as well. Criticizing cheating and criticizing the situations you describe, are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

Perhaps his wife is making the marriage a living hell and he's staying in for some reason unknown to the wizened heads in LS. A sense of loyalty, inertia, desire to maintain some semblance of family, fear of change or any number of factors can weigh in, and I'm not willing to condemn someone for behavior in a situation I cannot possibly understand fully.

[Gamine]

Perhaps his wife is making the marriage a living hell and he's staying in for some reason unknown to the wizened heads in LS. A sense of loyalty, inertia, desire to maintain some semblance of family, fear of change or any number of factors can weigh in, and I'm not willing to condemn someone for behavior in a situation I cannot possibly understand fully.

 

 

I have a deep, sincere desire to learn from the OW and I would really appreciate it if you would help guide me on something. Please let it fly because I am truly interested in understanding.

 

Why is it believed and/or understood by the OW that the MM is somehow trapped in a marriage? So often I read throughout the forums how these guys talk about love and devotion, their crappy dynamics at home, their lousy wives, etc... and turn to the OW for comfort and/or everything they 'feel' they aren't getting at home only to learn after the affair is over that none of it may have been true at all. How does one know, with certainty, which MM is telling it like it is? I mean, how do you really know whether what he is saying is true?

 

Honestly, I didn't know about the MM lying thing until I read about it here and experienced it first hand.

 

How can a girl/woman ever know unless and until he walks the talk? Isn't it all elusive until that point in time? Doesn't the truth lie in him?

 

Speaking as a BS, I can tell you that the first thing my fella did was deny anything meant anything and backed this with walking away completely from the A.

 

I'm confused.

[Reggie]

I think we can all agree, pie is good. One of my fantasies, early on after discovering my XWW was cheating with two men while I was at work, was to buy a nice Cocunut Cream Pie, and smush it into her face(violent, I know. But , Cagney used a grapefruit. Acetic acid is bad for the skin and eyes). I still might do it, when the kids are grown and I have the means to flee the country.

 

Meant Citric acid(must have been thinking vinegar).

[Reggie]

It's a question frequently brought up, G. I don't get it either. There are two issues, actually.

The first is the guy's credibility, when you know he is, by definition, a pretty good liar by virtue of the subterfuge the OW can see him enagaing in before her very eyes. Factor in that ,in addition to demonstrating facility with being dishonest, the strong motivation to do so(justification, desire to land a new body, need to appear a victim, etc) and it is amazing to me OW's buy the story.

Then, there is the story itself. It really makes very little sense, the "trapped" thing. Divorce is so common, there is virtually no stigma. The guy will have visitation and, if he is involved in an afffair, he is already diverting time from his kids. So, the fact that he is not home full time anymore, post divorce. should not be a huge adjustment.

Financailly, studies show the vast majority of guys are better off finanacially after divorce. Myself, I only half to pay 35% of my net, and can live way better than before where my wife was siphoning off $$ for her affair.

And, if the guy is concerned about hurting his wife's feelings, divorce is less painful than betrayal, by most accounts.

This is a longwinded way of saying that OM and OW believe this stuff in spite of it's lack of relation to reality because they want to believe it.

[Reggie]

Reggie,

I actually appreciated this post of yours. This post is constructive. You are telling that you cannot understand where I am at. I respect that.

 

 

Right, I do not understand it. If we take out the influence your limbic system is having on your feelings and look at this rationally, do you get it?

I mean to me , it is simple. Guy robs banks, he is not a great guy. May be great in bed. May be funny as hell. May be an awesome golfer. Not a great guy.

I have an affair. I feel affairs are wrong. They hust others and diminish me. But, I do it anyway.

What is up with that?

[Shadowcat]

I know where MM is coming from. We spent hours and hours talking about it. I would not do what he is doing, but then I do not see a conflict between "romantic love" (his expression) and family. To me a divorce because I love someone else does not threaten my existence, my family, my children. He has tried to be the good guy and give me up, but panicked every time. He finally gave in to the fact that it was impossible for him to end our relationship. He has made it pretty clear that in many ways I have replaced his wife, which means that those parts of a marriage have already been taken away from her. Still he believes that he is protecting his wife and children since they do not know the truth. He believes he is doing the best he can of a bad situation. I do believe he is starting to realize that he can't keep this going though, something has to give.

[Shadowcat]

OWoman,

Thank you for the encouraging words. They really mean a lot to me.

[Reggie]

I know where MM is coming from. We spent hours and hours talking about it. I would not do what he is doing, but then I do not see a conflict between "romantic love" (his expression) and family. To me a divorce because I love someone else does not threaten my existence, my family, my children. He has tried to be the good guy and give me up, but panicked every time. He finally gave in to the fact that it was impossible for him to end our relationship. He has made it pretty clear that in many ways I have replaced his wife, which means that those parts of a marriage have already been taken away from her. Still he believes that he is protecting his wife and children since they do not know the truth. He believes he is doing the best he can of a bad situation. I do believe he is starting to realize that he can't keep this going though, something has to give.

 

 

The part that is missing in this analysis is the fact tath he is lying to his wife, essentially stealing her time by depriving her of information.

Look, his wife may crave the exact things you two are getting but because she is unaware that the husband is cheating, she is abiding by her vows.

This may sound simplistic, but the question is why do you and her husband get to have a fulfilling romantic life when she does not? Don't you guys want her to have what you two have? It would not affect the romance between you and her H, but would merely free her up to pursue the same.

So, what is the deal? Why does she have to stay in the dark? If her marriage is missing something, the info you provide her re the cheating frees her up to be fulfilled, as well.

Isn't what you are doing elevating yourselves and putting greater value on your own lives than you are placing on hers? She is not your pawn.SHe is a person, too, with one life here and you guys are sitting back and letting her waste precious time. Isn't she a person to you?

[stillafool]

The part that is missing in this analysis is the fact tath he is lying to his wife, essentially stealing her time by depriving her of information.

Look, his wife may crave the exact things you two are getting but because she is unaware that the husband is cheating, she is abiding by her vows.

This may sound simplistic, but the question is why do you and her husband get to have a fulfilling romantic life when she does not? Don't you guys want her to have what you two have? It would not affect the romance between you and her H, but would merely free her up to pursue the same.

So, what is the deal? Why does she have to stay in the dark? If her marriage is missing something, the info you provide her re the cheating frees her up to be fulfilled, as well.

Isn't what you are doing elevating yourselves and putting greater value on your own lives than you are placing on hers? She is not your pawn.SHe is a person, too, with one life here and you guys are sitting back and letting her waste precious time. Isn't she a person to you?

 

 

This is an excellent point Reggie. Shadowcat why don't you bring this point up to your MM and see what he says. His wife does deserve the same happiness you and MM have found in each other. Why don' t the two of you be fair and free her up to move on.

[fooled once]

I know where MM is coming from. We spent hours and hours talking about it. I would not do what he is doing, but then I do not see a conflict between "romantic love" (his expression) and family. To me a divorce because I love someone else does not threaten my existence, my family, my children. He has tried to be the good guy and give me up, but panicked every time. He finally gave in to the fact that it was impossible for him to end our relationship. He has made it pretty clear that in many ways I have replaced his wife, which means that those parts of a marriage have already been taken away from her. Still he believes that he is protecting his wife and children since they do not know the truth. He believes he is doing the best he can of a bad situation. I do believe he is starting to realize that he can't keep this going though, something has to give.

 

Iif that is true, then why the book? since in your words, it is impossble for him to end the relationship?

 

How in the heck have you replaced his wife? You are in a LDR with him. He sleeps with her every night, they have dinner, help the kids with homework, make financial decisions, go to the grocery store, etc. Seriously, how have YOU replaced HIS wife?

 

You have obviously never been divorced. Divorce DOES threaten the family. I mean, if it was so easy, like in Sweden, wouldn't everyone be doing it once they decide they are tired of their spouse? I mean, why work on the marriage when it is easier to transfer the love from one to another.

 

And I don't get how the country's morals = personal morals. I made my moral decisions based on MY views; not my country's views.

 

I hope you are prepared to accept his decision and that if he tries to contact you, you tell him NO, he made his choice.

[Shadowcat]

This is an excellent point Reggie. Shadowcat why don't you bring this point up to your MM and see what he says. His wife does deserve the same happiness you and MM have found in each other. Why don' t the two of you be fair and free her up to move on.

 

I have brought this point up with MM. I agree with you two here. I could never do what he is doing to any spouse of mine. I would have been divorced long ago and thus freed my partner to move on.

 

I bought the book as a desperate hope that it would help us to get through this limbo position we are in, where he is not able to break up with me nor I with him.

 

I wasn't married with my ex, but we had a 25 year long relationship. That is as much a divorce as far as the kids are concerned and in other ways as well.

 

I am not going to go into details, but it is obvious to me that what MM says is true, his wife is deprived of parts of her marriage she used to have. Sure enough, she got half a man, but so do I. I am not happy about this. That is why I am desperately trying to find a way to change it.

 

Of course, my country's morals do not equal my morals, but we are all affected by the culture we live in.

[boldjack]

Reg, don't know about the pie in the face thing. Sounds like a waste of good dessert. Gam....pumpkin? pecan crust? I'm there!! My wife baked a Rhubarb/cherry Saturday, the kids were home so it lasted about 5 minutes.

[Owl]

 

I am not going to go into details, but it is obvious to me that what MM says is true, his wife is deprived of parts of her marriage she used to have. Sure enough, she got half a man, but so do I. I am not happy about this. That is why I am desperately trying to find a way to change it.

 

Here's the thing...buying him a book isn't going to change it.

 

The only way that YOU can change it is by changing YOUR SIDE of the triangle.

 

If YOU end the affair...you change it.

 

Anything less will be a waste of time, effort, and hope on your part.

 

You can't change him...you can only change yourself.

 

You can't change his actions...you can only modify your own.

 

If you refuse to continue the affair...it ends.