"When good people have affairs"

[Dexter Morgan]

Thanks for asking about these points.

 

well then I can see you are one of the RARE OW, ex or otherwise, that decided to do the decent thing rather than not give a crap about anyone that was affected by your decisions.

 

kudos to you.

[clv0116]

Why is it believed and/or understood by the OW that the MM is somehow trapped in a marriage? So often I read throughout the forums how these guys talk about love and devotion, their crappy dynamics at home, their lousy wives, etc... and turn to the OW for comfort and/or everything they 'feel' they aren't getting at home only to learn after the affair is over that none of it may have been true at all. How does one know, with certainty, which MM is telling it like it is? I mean, how do you really know whether what he is saying is true?

 

Well being a single man, I've never been the other woman ....

 

However I can say that people are complicated and often as not can even fool themselves on various points of fact. How to tell someone is telling the absolute truth sounds like a setup for a journey into philosophy.

[Shadowcat]

Here's the thing...buying him a book isn't going to change it.

 

The only way that YOU can change it is by changing YOUR SIDE of the triangle.

 

If YOU end the affair...you change it.

 

Anything less will be a waste of time, effort, and hope on your part.

 

You can't change him...you can only change yourself.

 

You can't change his actions...you can only modify your own.

 

If you refuse to continue the affair...it ends.

 

I see what you are saying. I am just not there yet.

[Owl]

I see what you are saying. I am just not there yet.

 

I hope you get there soon, my friend. For everyone involved and impacted in this, but mostly for YOU.

 

It's where YOU need to be...FOR you.

[Owl]

I see what you are saying. I am just not there yet.

 

Here's your problem, my friend. Until you "get there"...you're going to stay right where you're at.

 

If you change nothing...nothing changes.

[OWoman]

Why is it believed and/or understood by the OW that the MM is somehow trapped in a marriage? So often I read throughout the forums how these guys talk about love and devotion, their crappy dynamics at home, their lousy wives, etc... and turn to the OW for comfort and/or everything they 'feel' they aren't getting at home only to learn after the affair is over that none of it may have been true at all. How does one know, with certainty, which MM is telling it like it is? I mean, how do you really know whether what he is saying is true?

 

The first is the guy's credibility, when you know he is, by definition, a pretty good liar by virtue of the subterfuge the OW can see him enagaing in before her very eyes. Factor in that ,in addition to demonstrating facility with being dishonest, the strong motivation to do so(justification, desire to land a new body, need to appear a victim, etc) and it is amazing to me OW's buy the story.

 

I can't speak for others, but speaking for myself, when I was the OW: I didn't "believe the MM"; in fact, the MM never said any such thing to me. What I was told about his M came from others - family, colleagues, friends of his - who all independently cited credible evidence that they themselves had witnessed. I'm highly skeptical by nature, but when confronted with the kind of evidence that would stand up in court, consistently and solidly, one starts to concede that there may be some truth in the allegations. And, with time, I came to witness things directly myself, corroborating the claims.

 

My H has never lied to me. Any "lies" to his xW were lies of omission - and given how separately they lived, there was no reason for them to engage in discussions so it wasn't as if he was blatantly avoiding the issue either. When he did tell her, she didn't believe him - just as she'd not believed others who'd told her previously. It was only once he'd been apart from her for more than 6 months, once he and I had been living openly together as a family with the kids, once even school teachers and shop staff were mentioning him and I as a couple to her, that she acknowledged that there may indeed be "someone else". This had little to do with his "lying cheating character" and much to do with the robustness of the alternative reality she'd constructed for herself.

 

Then, there is the story itself. It really makes very little sense, the "trapped" thing. Divorce is so common, there is virtually no stigma. The guy will have visitation and, if he is involved in an afffair, he is already diverting time from his kids. So, the fact that he is not home full time anymore, post divorce. should not be a huge adjustment.

Financailly, studies show the vast majority of guys are better off finanacially after divorce

 

This depends on the situation, IME. My H is indeed far better off financially after the D, as his xW was a serious financial drain given her compulsive shopping habits which he'd been suckered into subsidising despite their finances being separate. However, objectively, for many Dd couples the expenses are higher, as they now have two households to maintain instead of one (leading to duplication of certain expenses, both outlay and recurrent costs).

 

On the kids front - not all MMs are diverting time away from their kids - some spend more time with their kids during an A (whether through guilt or otherwise) than they would "normally" during a run-of-the-mill alienated M. The outcome post-D of child access / custody seems to vary from place to place and by individual circumstances, but in most places these days the best interests of the child are held to be paramount, and custody / access decided in that light. And, when a D'd parent has the child/ren, they have them all to themselves, and can focus on them fully, rather than tuning them out to play in the yard while they veg out in front of the TV, so yes, post D the child situation CAN be much better. But, if you're the parent who doesn't land up with significant custody, then the threatened loss of every-day rituals such as reading bedtime stories or driving them to school can be a dealbreaker.

[dobler33]

well then I can see you are one of the RARE OW, ex or otherwise, that decided to do the decent thing rather than not give a crap about anyone that was affected by your decisions.

 

kudos to you.

 

i would like to suggest, though i suspect i might be gunned down on main street for doing so, that the OP cannot always be said to "not give a crap about anyone that was affected by" their decisions. sometimes they might care very deeply and suffer enormous guilt and remorse, but still feel that the relationship they are pursuing is the right one for them, and therefore make the same decisions they would if they did not in fact give a crap. i am anticipating the potential response here: if you gave a crap then you could not possibly hurt the other person. to which i say that it just is not that simple. it's another act of splitting that makes it easier for the injured party to cope with the injury, and as such is a legitmate short-term healing strategy. but it is incredibly one-dimensional and does not take into account all the deeply conflicted and above all complex emotions of the injurer, who is human like everyone else. there is no one-to-one ratio here, despite the assertions of some posters that support a black-and-white platform on infidelity. good people do bad things. bad people do good things. the ambiguity and unpredictability of the world is terrifying and we have a lot of ways of defending ourselves against it. one of them is splitting: if you were a good person/gave a crap/had morals you simply wouldn't do this. i'm telling you it just ain't the reality of things.

 

alert to boldjack - here is one of those places where i fully recognize that my training affects my viewpoint. i'm up to my elbows every day in the mud and muck of the human psyche and it's hard to make these kinds of clear delineations when you see all that goes on under the surface of our daytime faces. but i'm also drawing from my own experience, having been torn and guilt-ridden and utterly effed unto the lord by all the conflicting emotions i went through. and i consider myself a moral and compassionate person. i am not a serial murderer or a bank robber. i do not eat puppies. giving a crap or not giving a crap is not an adequate measure of data in these situations.

[OWoman]

i would like to suggest, though i suspect i might be gunned down on main street for doing so, that the OP cannot always be said to "not give a crap about anyone that was affected by" their decisions. sometimes they might care very deeply and suffer enormous guilt and remorse, but still feel that the relationship they are pursuing is the right one for them, and therefore make the same decisions they would if they did not in fact give a crap. i am anticipating the potential response here: if you gave a crap then you could not possibly hurt the other person. to which i say that it just is not that simple. it's another act of splitting that makes it easier for the injured party to cope with the injury, and as such is a legitmate short-term healing strategy. but it is incredibly one-dimensional and does not take into account all the deeply conflicted and above all complex emotions of the injurer, who is human like everyone else. there is no one-to-one ratio here, despite the assertions of some posters that support a black-and-white platform on infidelity. good people do bad things. bad people do good things. the ambiguity and unpredictability of the world is terrifying and we have a lot of ways of defending ourselves against it. one of them is splitting: if you were a good person/gave a crap/had morals you simply wouldn't do this. i'm telling you it just ain't the reality of things.

 

alert to boldjack - here is one of those places where i fully recognize that my training affects my viewpoint. i'm up to my elbows every day in the mud and muck of the human psyche and it's hard to make these kinds of clear delineations when you see all that goes on under the surface of our daytime faces. but i'm also drawing from my own experience, having been torn and guilt-ridden and utterly effed unto the lord by all the conflicting emotions i went through. and i consider myself a moral and compassionate person. i am not a serial murderer or a bank robber. i do not eat puppies. giving a crap or not giving a crap is not an adequate measure of data in these situations.

 

It's also seldom that an AP doesn't care about ANYONE impacted by their actions - often there are many different people affected (the CS, the BS, any kids on either side, broader families, friends, colleagues...) and their interests and needs may be in conflict... so the AP will need to prioritise one set of needs and interests over others, and is likely to foreground the needs and interests of those who matter most and are most important to her / him - which is most likely to be the CS (rather than the BS, say).

 

It's very seldom that everyone's interests align neatly to make choices that simple. Matters of the heart - or the hormones - are often messy.

[NoIDidn't]

giving a crap or not giving a crap is not an adequate measure of data in these situations.

 

I totally agree. My H didn't think about me at all when he was talking with his OW. He was purely in the moment.

 

Did that mean that he was a heartless bastard? Not to me. It meant that he was escaping his reality. All of it. And that included me.

 

I totally agree with that sentiment. Its not a dig at the betrayed or a kudos to the OP. It just is what it is.

[Reggie]

Most people, other than pure sociopaths, feel some level of remorse or have qualms about the acts they are about to commit. So, what makes one person go ahead and do it anyway, and another refrain( assuming external deterents are equal)?

In cases where committing the act involves hurting or damaging another person, I'd suggest that the one refraining has a greater capacity for empathy and compassion and is less self absorbed.

So ,even if a cheaters gives a crap, it is probably a smaller crap than a non-cheater:). Sound right?

[dobler33]

i object to your suggestion that my crap is smaller than someone else's crap. you have no idea the size and dimensions of my crap. my crap could be COLLOSSAL.

 

sorry, couldn't resist that one. i'm a freudian, i can't pass up an opportunity to talk about poop. or size.

[stillafool]

I have brought this point up with MM. I agree with you two here. I could never do what he is doing to any spouse of mine. I would have been divorced long ago and thus freed my partner to move on.

 

I bought the book as a desperate hope that it would help us to get through this limbo position we are in, where he is not able to break up with me nor I with him.

 

I wasn't married with my ex, but we had a 25 year long relationship. That is as much a divorce as far as the kids are concerned and in other ways as well.

 

I am not going to go into details, but it is obvious to me that what MM says is true, his wife is deprived of parts of her marriage she used to have. Sure enough, she got half a man, but so do I. I am not happy about this. That is why I am desperately trying to find a way to change it.

 

Of course, my country's morals do not equal my morals, but we are all affected by the culture we live in.

 

So what does he think about telling her and making a choice? Is he close to telling her or making his choice or do you know that yet?

[Reggie]

i object to your suggestion that my crap is smaller than someone else's crap. you have no idea the size and dimensions of my crap. my crap could be COLLOSSAL.

 

sorry, couldn't resist that one. i'm a freudian, i can't pass up an opportunity to talk about poop. or size.

 

Yes, you got me dobler. Okay, some of your crap is truly colossal(does

not stink, either). I'm guilty of crap envy, I admit it.

 

What's Jung's take on this?

[dobler33]

why, that all crap has common threads of archetypal crappitude, and is shared in the collective crapconcious, of course! sha.

[Reggie]

The "collective crapconcious":). Can I use that? I'm going to work it into virtually every conversation I have on the golf course this weekend. Excellent. Alliteration, as well. Really good.

[dobler33]

i didn't spend no 85 grand on a grade A psychological education for nothing, bebe. please feel free to quote me.

[Reggie]

Okay. Let's copyright it. Split licensing fees.

Thing about it is, using the collective crapconcious theory, someone has already come up with this before you, right. Some person form the ice age might have thought of it and it's imbued in all of us.

[dobler33]

oh, undoubtedly. depressing, isn't it? damn cave men.

[Shadowcat]

So what does he think about telling her and making a choice? Is he close to telling her or making his choice or do you know that yet?

 

Telling BS and in that way setting her free to make her own choice when it comes to love was my gut reaction, so this was a point I made pretty early on. It didn't have any impact on MM. Based on his knowledge of her he believes that she would rather look the other way as long as he stays with her and they keep the family intact. In fact she might already be looking the other way, not wanting to see the reality of what is going on.

 

Is he close to making a choice? Let's say the book is of no help. In that case I wonder if he will ever be able to make a choice. He doesn't like things the way they are, but I wonder if there is any better alternative available to him. He can not make himself leave me, and he cannot make himself divorce his wife. So I doubt he can make a decision entirely on his own as long as everything is as it is now. If he could he already would have. However, things might change. The pressure on him is very high. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some physical or psychological reaction to all the stress in his life, which would push him over the edge.

[Shadowcat]

Because she's not using it as an excuse for anything.

 

You know when you tell of a very painful experience such as a culture crash inside your intimate relationship, it is pretty humiliating to have someone call it an excuse.

[Owl]

Telling BS and in that way setting her free to make her own choice when it comes to love was my gut reaction, so this was a point I made pretty early on. It didn't have any impact on MM. Based on his knowledge of her he believes that she would rather look the other way as long as he stays with her and they keep the family intact. In fact she might already be looking the other way, not wanting to see the reality of what is going on.

 

Is he close to making a choice? Let's say the book is of no help. In that case I wonder if he will ever be able to make a choice. He doesn't like things the way they are, but I wonder if there is any better alternative available to him. He can not make himself leave me, and he cannot make himself divorce his wife. So I doubt he can make a decision entirely on his own as long as everything is as it is now. If he could he already would have. However, things might change. The pressure on him is very high. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some physical or psychological reaction to all the stress in his life, which would push him over the edge.

 

Shadowcat, you've got to realize something here.

 

This story isn't unique. These situations are almost always "textbook"...so much so that they seem to follow a script.

 

He's following the 'standard script'. He claims that she'd rather not know. He's done nothing...absolutely nothing to change the situation. He's not sitting still for her benefit...if his concern was for her well-being, he wouldn't have started an affair with you to begin with. He's certainly not sitting still for YOUR benefit...clearly this situation is HURTING you. No...following that 'script', he's staying right where he's at because it's what he wants.

 

He enjoys this situation more than you or her ever will. He has two women in his life...two women meeting his needs (both emotionally and physically). No matter how much he laments otherwise, the truth is, he's exactly where he wants to be at the moment. That is your bottom line reason why nothing has changed in this situation for so long.

 

You cannot expect that he's going to take any action to change the status quo...because he's worked hard to create and maintain this specific status quo.

 

The ONLY way that this situation is going to change is if you, or her, change it for him.

 

Either she discovers the affair and leaves him or forces him to end it....or you decide that this situation is no longer what you want and FORCE the end by breaking off the affair and insisting that the only relationship you'll have with him is when he's no longer with her.

 

Until you make that choice...or she finds out about the affair and forces a change...there's very little that you're going to be able to do to change the situation.

[silktricks]

It's funny how often BSs describe an "affair fog" and talk about the CS "rewriting marital history" to cast it as more horrid than they experienced before the A; while on this very board we get to see reborn CSs doing just that with rewriting the history of the A, to recast it as "s/he never meant anything to me; it was just about sex" once the A is over - a convenient lie to help them reconstruct their M and to convince the BS that they are still invested in the M so that the BS doesn't leave them. There are few CSs who stayed with the BS who are honest enough to admit that they "settled" for something less; that the A - while not perfect, and perhaps not sufficient to lure them away from the whole package that "M" entails (family home, comforts, friends, etc) - was of value to them and the connection to the AP deep and meaningful. I guess it's an inevitable part of the rebonding process - fake it till you make it - but it does tend to bias the picture presented.

 

Come now, OWoman, this is the most obvious sophistry. You are saying that CS you agree with are telling the truth and those you don't agree with are lying. Obviously some CS who remain with their spouses do regret the A, and the affair partner really did mean nothing to them. And just as obviously some CS who remain with their spouses are settling for less.

 

This is just as far off-topic, though, as has been much of this thread....

 

SC, I will say that I don't approve of what you are doing (having an affair, whether long-distance or not is IMO not a good way to spend any portion of your life), however, that said, I do think it was a good idea to send the MM the book. Anything that will help stop the affair is good.

 

Obviously, you sent it to him in hopes that he would "choose you", but it sounds like you are pretty much done in by the fact that he hasn't done that yet, anyway. I personally, am more the type of person who likes to make my own choices rather than depend on anyone else to make them for me.

 

I believe that most (much?) of the flack you have received is because one of the three people in the triangle is not getting a choice, and that is really not fair, either.

[silktricks]

I totally agree with that sentiment. Its not a dig at the betrayed or a kudos to the OP. It just is what it is.

Ain't that the truth!!

[Shadowcat]

That wasn't my goal at all. I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

Apology accepted. Thank you.

[Shadowcat]

Owl, I agree with you. That is a fair way to describe it.