"When good people have affairs"

[Shadowcat]

SC, I will say that I don't approve of what you are doing (having an affair, whether long-distance or not is IMO not a good way to spend any portion of your life), however, that said, I do think it was a good idea to send the MM the book. Anything that will help stop the affair is good.

 

Exactly my opinion. Whether it means he chooses me or her. I just felt I had to do something, and I could not make myself leave him. If he leaves me, I will just have to deal with that.

[Reggie]

Owl, I agree with you. That is a fair way to describe it.

 

A good example a BS helping out and supporting. No cheerleading.

[silktricks]

Exactly my opinion. Whether it means he chooses me or her. I just felt I had to do something, and I could not make myself leave him. If he leaves me, I will just have to deal with that.

 

What if he doesn't leave you, or leave her??? It appeared from earlier posts that you could no longer bear to keep the status quo. What if his choice is again, no choice? What will you do?

[Shadowcat]

What if he doesn't leave you, or leave her??? It appeared from earlier posts that you could no longer bear to keep the status quo. What if his choice is again, no choice? What will you do?

 

That's how I felt when I wrote it. I struggle with this situation every day. The author of that book describes how we go from rollercoasters to accepting the situation as is to rollercoasters and on and on. Today I am in a calmer mood. The future will show what it holds. Today I am not ready to leave him.

[Dexter Morgan]

And in continuiong with the A, you are playing right into the cake eater's hand while, at the same time, continuing to aid in the deception of an innocent party. So sad that the W doesn't get to make a choice here.

 

yes but remember, the cheating, lying, betraying husband is a "good person":o

[Reggie]

Haven't read the book. But, the fact that it is in print and authored by someone claiming some qualifications does not mean it is right.

[Dexter Morgan]

Haven't read the book. But, the fact that it is in print and authored by someone claiming some qualifications does not mean it is right.

 

I'd say the title of the book is an oxymoron.

[NoIDidn't]

I'd say the title of the book is an oxymoron.

 

Oh come on, Dexter. Don't you think you are projecting a lot?

 

They could certainly be "good" people behaving "badly" at that time. Just like people that speed down the highway knowing that speeding could potentially harm alot of people.

[clv0116]

For FOUR YEARS!?

 

Probably about 5 years since the wife gave him a BJ. Just a theory.

[Shadowcat]

Probably about 5 years since the wife gave him a BJ. Just a theory.

 

Well, everybody knows that in affairs men give flowers and women give BJs. That's no news.

[GreenEyedLady]

yes but remember, the cheating, lying, betraying husband is a "good person":o

 

Hmm, I think that is what causes most BS's to keep their WS's no?

 

Because they think they're a good person deep down? Go read at SI, they seem to think their WS's are good people and that's why they give them another chance.

 

Interesting they are considered bad people when talking to AP, and good people when talking to their own BS.

[Mino]

Hmm, I think that is what causes most BS's to keep their WS's no?

 

Because they think they're a good person deep down? Go read at SI, they seem to think their WS's are good people and that's why they give them another chance.

 

Interesting they are considered bad people when talking to AP, and good people when talking to their own BS.

Gel, You hit it on the nose, If you posted as a bs, they are good, come back as ap, they are bad, lol to funny:rolleyes: And its all 1 and the same person..Look at him from the back, he is good, look at him from thre front he is bad! LOL LOL What is he from the side????? .

[SidLyon]

" yes but remember, the cheating, lying, betraying husband is a "good person"

Hmm, I think that is what causes most BS's to keep their WS's no?

 

Because they think they're a good person deep down? Go read at SI, they seem to think their WS's are good people and that's why they give them another chance.

 

Interesting they are considered bad people when talking to AP, and good people when talking to their own BS. "

 

Gel, You hit it on the nose, If you posted as a bs, they are good, come back as ap, they are bad, lol to funny:rolleyes: And its all 1 and the same person..Look at him from the back, he is good, look at him from thre front he is bad! LOL LOL What is he from the side????? .

 

You have of course hit the nail on the head - I'm a BS trying very hard to forgive and move on from my H's affair.

 

It's why many BSs don't think in terms of whether their H/W is/was a bad person.

 

If I had concluded that he was a bad person all round then I probably wouldn't still be trying. I'm guessing that those BSs who don't stay with their WSs probably do think in terms of him/her being a bad person.

 

I know there is an old saying "love the sinner, hate the sin". I'm an atheist but the meaning behind such a saying is clear.

 

No the "cheating lying husband" referred to above is not behaving in a "good" manner - the behaviour is deserving of every insult hurled on this discussion board by BSs. For that matter the OPs can hurl the same sort of insults. While either the marriage or the affair continue though, both BS and OP are perhaps believing that the WS/MP is basically a good person.

 

I get the impression from reading this and the Infidelity list that most people (both OP and BS) want the WS/MP to choose between them and this seems to me to be the hallmark of whether the WS/MP will be regarded as "good" or "bad". After d-day a WS/MP who continues to vacillate is generally reviled by all. Well so it seems to me.

 

S

[SidLyon]

[... While either the marriage or the affair continue though, both BS and OP are perhaps believing that the WS/MP is basically a good person.

 

I get the impression from reading this and the Infidelity list that most people (both OP and BS) want the WS/MP to choose between them and this seems to me to be the hallmark of whether the WS/MP will be regarded as "good" or "bad". After d-day a WS/MP who continues to vacillate is generally reviled by all. Well so it seems to me...

 

S

 

Sorry what I wrote probably appears contradictory. What I meant is:

 

While either the marriage (after d-day and the A is over) or the affair (before d-day) continue though, both BS and OP are perhaps believing that the WS/MP is basically a good person.

 

Not sure if this makes it clearer - I'm intending to examine the thoughts of the BS once the A is revealed but finished, compared with the thoughts of the OP while the A is ongoing but secret.

[GreenEyedLady]

If I had concluded that he was a bad person all round then I probably wouldn't still be trying. I'm guessing that those BSs who don't stay with their WSs probably do think in terms of him/her being a bad person.

 

For that matter the OPs can hurl the same sort of insults. While either the marriage or the affair continue though, both BS and OP are perhaps believing that the WS/MP is basically a good person.

 

I get the impression from reading this and the Infidelity list that most people (both OP and BS) want the WS/MP to choose between them and this seems to me to be the hallmark of whether the WS/MP will be regarded as "good" or "bad". After d-day a WS/MP who continues to vacillate is generally reviled by all. Well so it seems to me.

 

S

 

You bring up an interesting point that I wasn't even thinking about when I posted. I am a FOW who married her MM. I did not even think to categorize him as a good or bad person. I knew he was a good person and I think his XW would agree. He just didn't handle things the way he should have. It would made things so much easier to handle for everyone.

 

You see, he lied to me about his marital status for over a year. So I just thought he was a single divorced guy with issues. When I found out, I decided to continue the R with him. (yeah I know, I'm an evil OW now.) But my focus wasn't on getting him to leave, per se. It was for him to treat me right, which he did. And far more than I even expected. In the end, it was about me feeling right about my life. About not being involved with a married man. I loved him dearly and it hurt me beyond compare to walk away and say work it out her. But I didn't think it was fair that he have me and be married to her. For any one of the three of us. I remember telling him that I deserved a man to be with me only and she deserved her husband to be faithful. He finally made the choice when he realized he still had one.

 

So it's not really like the OW is scheming and trying to lure her MM to leave his W. It's just that it gets really old to feel the way an OW does. As good as my now H was to me, I could not feel like I was less than number one at all.

 

I guess too that I don't consider PEOPLE as good or bad. Instead I look at their actions and consider that a smart thing to do or not so smart thing to do. I think that most people are just trying to do the best they can. And there's a million reasons why they fail and do bad things and hurt people. And I think that it is not done on purpose but people just get lost along the way.

 

I know you are a BS and I honestly hope that you and your H's reconciliation goes smoothly and you are happier and have a stronger M than ever.

 

Maybe that is really my point here. People who have affairs are just like people who don't have affairs. People are people. Some people just act in more destructive ways than others. But I believe that for the most part, people are good and try to do what's right. But people are not infallible and

are prone to making mistakes.

[SidLyon]

You bring up an interesting point that I wasn't even thinking about when I posted. I am a FOW who married her MM. I did not even think to categorize him as a good or bad person. I knew he was a good person and I think his XW would agree. He just didn't handle things the way he should have. It would made things so much easier to handle for everyone.

 

You see, he lied to me about his marital status for over a year. So I just thought he was a single divorced guy with issues. When I found out, I decided to continue the R with him. (yeah I know, I'm an evil OW now.) But my focus wasn't on getting him to leave, per se. It was for him to treat me right, which he did. And far more than I even expected. In the end, it was about me feeling right about my life. About not being involved with a married man. I loved him dearly and it hurt me beyond compare to walk away and say work it out her. But I didn't think it was fair that he have me and be married to her. For any one of the three of us. I remember telling him that I deserved a man to be with me only and she deserved her husband to be faithful. He finally made the choice when he realized he still had one.

 

So it's not really like the OW is scheming and trying to lure her MM to leave his W. It's just that it gets really old to feel the way an OW does. As good as my now H was to me, I could not feel like I was less than number one at all.

 

I guess too that I don't consider PEOPLE as good or bad. Instead I look at their actions and consider that a smart thing to do or not so smart thing to do. I think that most people are just trying to do the best they can. And there's a million reasons why they fail and do bad things and hurt people. And I think that it is not done on purpose but people just get lost along the way.

 

I know you are a BS and I honestly hope that you and your H's reconciliation goes smoothly and you are happier and have a stronger M than ever.

 

Maybe that is really my point here. People who have affairs are just like people who don't have affairs. People are people. Some people just act in more destructive ways than others. But I believe that for the most part, people are good and try to do what's right. But people are not infallible and

are prone to making mistakes.

 

Thanks for your good wishes GEL.

 

In many ways we are in a similar situation. We are both with a man who lied and cheated and who, when it came to the crunch chose us. The fact that our men chose us over another woman (in my case the OW and in yours his former W) gives us a reason to go on and to try to make the best marriage we can in the circumstances. However underlying both our marriages is some abysmal behaviour on the part of our Hs. In both our cases I imagine there has been another woman who is has been through utter devastation (me too!) because of what happened. Hopefully you and I both have truly remorseful Hs who never want to inflict that sort of pain or hurt on anyone again.

 

It will of course be terrible if either do anything like this again. And if they do sadly we will both be told the same thing - that we should have realised that a "leopard doesn't change its spots" or maybe "once a cheater always a cheater". People will inevitably blame us for being with them.

 

That perhaps is the sad consequence that both BSs who "keep" their Hs and OW who "end up with" their MM have to live with. My counselor said I now have to live with mindful trust rather than blind trust. I would guess you need to as well.

 

S

[GreenEyedLady]

It will of course be terrible if either do anything like this again. And if they do sadly we will both be told the same thing - that we should have realised that a "leopard doesn't change its spots" or maybe "once a cheater always a cheater". People will inevitably blame us for being with them.

 

That perhaps is the sad consequence that both BSs who "keep" their Hs and OW who "end up with" their MM have to live with. My counselor said I now have to live with mindful trust rather than blind trust. I would guess you need to as well.

 

S

 

You are very insightful and you make me laugh..

 

I am sure you saw changes that made you believe he was worth the second chance. I saw the changes as well. Changes that affected him as a person and how he related to other people, not just me. If he remained the same, I know that history would repeat itself. Same behavior, different woman.

 

I trust because I have no reason not to. I think it is in his best interest not to give me a reason. And I know he loves me as I love him and I believe that that is enough. So I'm crossing my fingers because I know the odds...

 

A wing and a prayer, I think that should be my motto...

 

Funny how life is...

[bentnotbroken]

Some of us (BS) will never feel like they were good people ever again, so we move on. My rational is, if I can't trust you, I can't be with you.

[SidLyon]

You are very insightful and you make me laugh..

 

I am sure you saw changes that made you believe he was worth the second chance. I saw the changes as well. Changes that affected him as a person and how he related to other people, not just me. If he remained the same, I know that history would repeat itself. Same behavior, different woman.

 

I trust because I have no reason not to. I think it is in his best interest not to give me a reason. And I know he loves me as I love him and I believe that that is enough. So I'm crossing my fingers because I know the odds...

 

A wing and a prayer, I think that should be my motto...

 

Funny how life is...

 

Hmm perhaps if I had more insight - my d-day would have happened much sooner. But part of that is that I did have blind trust - for example the discovery of a brand new necklace hidden away in the computer desk, about 3 years ago should have alerted me but I was naive.

 

Yes my H has made significant changes and the fact that we have been doing so well is mainly down to the changes he has made. I too have made changes and while I doubt that I will ever not nag him; I'm trying not to "sweat the small stuff" as they say.

 

At the moment, 7 months out from d-day he is doing everything right. Sometimes I'm unhappy that it means when the OW contacted him he had to be unfriendly towards her and not meet with her. I don't like that our marriage partly relies on him being mean to someone else - but that is what NC is all about.

 

Whatever happens I will still keep a watchful eye on him (not like before) but ultimately I'm not his gaoler and marriage is not a prison for him. His mother went through something a very similar 30 years ago and she tells me she still has her moments of doubt and on a bad day still ponders that her husband could have been unfaithful and hurt her that way.

 

In one way my H have a good example to follow now, as you couldn't meet a happier couple than his parents. On the other hand I wonder whether in some ways he was following his dad's example - I'll never know.

 

S

[dobler33]

this is a fascinating exchange. and you're right, whoever gets left is going to view the leaver as bad, at least for a while. i'm in the middle of the process of getting out of a good/bad binary w/ the MM who chose to stay w his wife. for the first two weeks after he ended it i was devastated and suicidal, thinking there was nothing i wanted in the world but him. the second two weeks i was enraged and convinced he was a bastard who carelessly ruined my life. of course neither is true, and both are true. i've mentioned this before, but the process of healing is all about integration, the ability to accept the good and the bad in someone else, and also in oneself. at the moment i'm in a decent balance; there is still some anger, but i'm aware that most of that anger has to do with the fact that i truly believed he would leave for me, and that was what i wanted most. the fact that i did not get what i wanted does not have much to do with him being a good or bad person. i still don't know what it has to do with, am still working on that one. is he a better person for staying with his wife and working to reconcile with her? possibly. is he a worse person for having started something that he was not prepared to follow through with, for having made promises to me that he broke? possibly. it is not really my responsibility or my priority anymore to try to figure this out. i'm working on the daily process of flushing him out of my system, like a drug that i'm drying out from, and that takes up all of my mental capacity. i can see him now as a good person who did a bad thing, something that hurt both me and his wife. and i'm a good person who did a bad thing, something that hurt both his wife and my husband. we both made this together, and now we are all - all four of us adults in this horrible mess - in the process of unmaking it.

[SidLyon]

Some of us (BS) will never feel like they were good people ever again, so we move on. My rational is, if I can't trust you, I can't be with you.

 

And this is a valid viewpoint too. It reinforces what I wrote earlier that maybe many BSs who don't forgive, do that because they don't believe their WS is a good person and maybe objectively they weren't. It could be because there were other factors at play or just that the BS realises they cannot ever view the WS as a good person again. I struggle with this too.

 

S

[SidLyon]

this is a fascinating exchange. and you're right, whoever gets left is going to view the leaver as bad, at least for a while. i'm in the middle of the process of getting out of a good/bad binary w/ the MM who chose to stay w his wife. for the first two weeks after he ended it i was devastated and suicidal, thinking there was nothing i wanted in the world but him. the second two weeks i was enraged and convinced he was a bastard who carelessly ruined my life. of course neither is true, and both are true. i've mentioned this before, but the process of healing is all about integration, the ability to accept the good and the bad in someone else, and also in oneself. at the moment i'm in a decent balance; there is still some anger, but i'm aware that most of that anger has to do with the fact that i truly believed he would leave for me, and that was what i wanted most. the fact that i did not get what i wanted does not have much to do with him being a good or bad person. i still don't know what it has to do with, am still working on that one. is he a better person for staying with his wife and working to reconcile with her? possibly. is he a worse person for having started something that he was not prepared to follow through with, for having made promises to me that he broke? possibly. it is not really my responsibility or my priority anymore to try to figure this out. i'm working on the daily process of flushing him out of my system, like a drug that i'm drying out from, and that takes up all of my mental capacity. i can see him now as a good person who did a bad thing, something that hurt both me and his wife. and i'm a good person who did a bad thing, something that hurt both his wife and my husband. we both made this together, and now we are all - all four of us adults in this horrible mess - in the process of unmaking it.

 

I sometimes think that trying to ascertain if the MP who has been stringing along a W (usually in ignorance) and an OP (with sometimes vague, sometime specific promises of a future together ) as either a good or bad person is an exercise in futility if trying to sort out the post affair mess. It is probably better to focus on what is to happen and on getting a change in behaviour from those that need to change in order to move on.

 

On the other hand seeing the MP as a bad person is probably helpful for someone, either a BS or an OP, who has made the unequivocal decision that they will end the relationship whether it be the marriage or the affair.

 

 

S

[bentnotbroken]

And this is a valid viewpoint too. It reinforces what I wrote earlier that maybe many BSs who don't forgive, do that because they don't believe their WS is a good person and maybe objectively they weren't. It could be because there were other factors at play or just that the BS realises they cannot ever view the WS as a good person again. I struggle with this too.

 

S

 

 

I don't think forgiveness and trust are the same thing. I forgive him. If I didn't it would only end up hurting me and my children. But if you put my life in danger one time, there won't be a second. I can't live my life following a grown person around checking to see if they told me the truth or not. That isn't what a marriage should be. I must admit trust is only one aspect for me. Respect is the other. It was clear that he didn't respect me, our marriage, our family or our lives together. And I knew that I could never respect the man that he had become and I didn't trust that he could become something different. I have much respect for the BS who chose to take that leap of faith.

[SidLyon]

I don't think forgiveness and trust are the same thing. I forgive him. If I didn't it would only end up hurting me and my children. But if you put my life in danger one time, there won't be a second. I can't live my life following a grown person around checking to see if they told me the truth or not. That isn't what a marriage should be. I must admit trust is only one aspect for me. Respect is the other. It was clear that he didn't respect me, our marriage, our family or our lives together. And I knew that I could never respect the man that he had become and I didn't trust that he could become something different. I have much respect for the BS who chose to take that leap of faith.

 

You are correct that forgiveness is not the same as re-establishing trust and neither of these are the same as reconciling. Perhaps I should have referred to marriages where the BS does not reconcile. Which could be for a number of reasons including the belief that the WS is not a good person, lack of respectful behaviour, lack of forgiveness or not re-establishing trust perhaps because the WS is not trustworthy anyway - after all they have cheated and have an enormous hurdle to overcome.

 

Continually having to check up on my H is not how I want to live my life in the long run and he knows it. If it eventuates that I cannot move on from this position or he repeatedly acts without respect or in an untrustworthy manner then our marriage will not survive. Essentially I am trying to draw a line under past reprehensible behavior because despite all that has happened he is the person I want to be with and I believe him when he says he want to be with me. We are not staying together just for the sake of children or for financial reasons but nevertheless we both have appreciated the life we have built together.

 

If I am betrayed again then I will no longer want to be with him and will sadly go the same way as you have.

 

S

[norajane]

Gel, You hit it on the nose, If you posted as a bs, they are good, come back as ap, they are bad, lol to funny:rolleyes: And its all 1 and the same person..Look at him from the back, he is good, look at him from thre front he is bad! LOL LOL What is he from the side????? .

 

It doesn't matter if they're good or bad - when they're cheating, they're hurting people. They're hurting both their spouse, and the OW/OM who is in love with them and desperately hoping...hoping...waiting...for years, sometimes.

 

If the cheaters are fortunate enough to be forgiven by their spouse or by their affair partner, that reflects what's in the heart of the one who is hurt and chooses to forgive, not the goodness of the one who is forgiven.