"When good people have affairs"

[Shadowcat]

I don't understand your logic. On the one hand, you say that in Scandanavia affairs are uncommon because when love ends, divorce takes place.Hence, very few affairs.

But, then you go on to say that his actions do no violate the values of your country. However, clearly, he is having an affair, which you claim is rare, and clearly he is not ending his marriage prior to involvement.

So, he is not acting in the same fashion as is acceptable in your country. If he ended his marriage and then became involved with you, that is exactly the same thing that is acceptable in The U.S.

Myabe I am missing something. But, it seems the values in Scandanavia are the same as in the U.S. and that your MM is violating the values of both.

Can you explain this?

 

I am not saying that affairs do not happen or are few in Scandinavia. People often fall in love here as well while they are still in another relationship and start a new relationship before ending the prior one. I am saying that more often than not once an affair becomes serious and the primary relationship has become the one with the OP, then the most common practice is to get a divorce. So I believe that long term affairs are more uncommon here. I do not see at all the flaming of affair partners here, there is an understanding that things like these happen.

 

I can give you an example. Last year I believe it was at the Eurovison Song Contest, Sweden's national contest prior to the big European one, the show host Luuk and his new woman Carina were celebrated with a song of one of Sweden's most famous comedians Björn Gustavsson. Luuk and Carina had both been married/in long term relationships and have kids I believe when they started working together. They soon discovered they were in love and eventually broke up their prior relationships. As I said this was celebrated with a song in national television. No stigma here.

 

And yes, my MM is violating the values of both countries by sustaining a long term extramarital relationship.

[Shadowcat]

Don't people in Scandinavia take breaks (longer than 6 months)between relationships/dating? Are they like monkeys, swinging from vine to vine, not letting go of one until there is another firmly at hand?

 

This discussion about cultural differences is getting out of hand.

[Shadowcat]

Correct me if I am wrong. But, at one point didn't you represent that the view you are espousing represent the predominant view of Scandanavians, SC?

But, then, in response to Gamine's assertions that it does not, you acknowledge that the Swedes are not a homogenous group and that other views are widespread?

Which is it? These statements are inconsistent.

 

I did, and I stand by my representation of the predominant view here in Scandinavia. But I am not a researcher who has done the statistics about this so I am open minded to that Gamine's experiences are correct as well, although it is hardly anything I have encountered. I never said anything about widespread, I am just not excluding other views. Predominant does not mean it is the only view.

 

I am an OW, writing on a forum which claims to support OW. I am writing my experience and my emotions. I am not writing a paper. When people talk to each other there will be generalizations. It is just like you cannot say that all Americans think the same about this issue, of course the Swedes don't either.

 

And I agree with Pinkie, we are losing focus here.

[Shadowcat]

Ok, what shadowcat is saying IS that not just in sweden, but I would throw in the rest of Europe, people are quicker to get a D. If a couple is having marriage problems, and one partner meets someone eles, they D their S quickly verses like an american, who rather sneak around for years decieving the S, Family, friends, ...ect. Europeans are more blunt, open.... they dont "hide " well. " Their "porn industry is open... Here people talk it down, but still look at it behind "CLOSED doors in secret. ... as long as no one see, its ok, attitude. So I think this crosses over to A as well. As long as nobody knows, its ok.... instead of making a decision to say, Oh, my M is in trouble, I better work on it with my S, Or I lay my cards on the table and set my S free. I guess it the puritans belief that is lingering in the forfront of americans belief system. I rather be upfront and deal with truth...

 

Thank you, Mino, you got it exactly!

[Shadowcat]

Yes, but this affair, according to SC, has been ongoing for 4 years. So, their behaviors conflict with her own stated values. Sounds like a decent lenght of sneaking to me.

I see nothing to be proud of in simply abandoning a marriage if it has some problems. Are the vows different in the ceremonies in Europe? I would bet not.

 

Did you miss out that I am in a LDR with an American who lives in America? Thus my problem. Thus the culture crash. Of course his behavior conflicts with my values, that's my problem. That's why I am trying to do something about it.

 

We don't abondon marriages simply because we have problems. We abondon marriages if we have fallen profoundly and primarily in love with someone else.

[Shadowcat]

I think it is somewhat important since she cites the view of her country as the basis for justfiying her actions. It's the old "shifting sands do not a firm foundation make" method of challenging an allegation. Works great on cross, for the most part.

 

Have I justified my own actions? OK, if you say so, I was not aware of that. In my eyes, I was simply explaining that I did not expect to become a long term OW. I have written too many posts now to keep track of what I have or have not said.

[norajane]

One of the major things I took with me from that book was to respect MM's decision. The author shows a very thorough way of going about making the choice between the two women, and how to make the decision regret proof. How for the MM to not indulge in explanations to the BS/OW of why and what if. Once you realize that such a thoroughly made decision is nothing to discuss, that you can have no impact on it, there is nothing left to do other than to grieve it if it did not have the outcome you wished for. I truly hope I will be strong enough to respect whatever he decides. I am hoping you all here on Loveshack will support me and help me get through this.

 

Seriously? The book does not recommend that the MM discuss his marriage with his wife at all before deciding to end it? His wife is just handed down his decision without even a hint that he is at all unhappy or that he's considering ending their marriage?

[Shadowcat]

Seriously? The book does not recommend that the MM discuss his marriage with his wife at all before deciding to end it? His wife is just handed down his decision without even a hint that he is at all unhappy or that he's considering ending their marriage?

 

Pinkie, help me here, I do not have the book handy since I handed it over to MM.

 

As I remember it, MM is to concentrate on the how and when. Questions like economy and the kids, to make her feel secure that the practicalities will be provided for, to make the transition easier for her.

 

Remember this is a man who has just chosen one woman over another. That issue is not something that can be helped by discussing it with the woman not chosen. The author states to, once the decision is made, wait a couple of days before telling to make certain you stand by your decision and have no change of heart.

 

To me it was a relief to read this. To trust the man that he is capable of making a regret proof decision which I would have to respect. MM has so many times "ended" our relationship only to in the next moment or the next day take it back. If there is a way in which he can find his internal answer, that will benefit us all.

 

I read a review by a BS who had gotten the book from her therapist after D-day. She stated it helped her so much to understand what had happened, why her husband had become involved in an affair. I suggest those BS questioning the book, read it themselves and get their own opinion of it. You might be surprised, there might be something for you to learn as well.

[Reggie]

Well, why doesn't the book recommend the guy tell his wife, upfront, that he intends to have a relationship with another women, before he does it? This whole moving on into another relationship for years behind someone's back is a demonstation of dishonesty.

Do you ever consider that the BS is relying on representations your MMhas made and continues to make which are totally false? How can this be a good person, if he is so dishonest and defrauding his wife?

Presumably, although I do not know, the two celebrities you mention that are heralded with the national song, were upfront with their spouses before embarking on their relatioship. If not, I think it is a sad statement that they are applauded.

Tell us, don't you have some question about this MM's character, since he has done this? And why were you complicit if it violates your values?

[Reggie]

Ok, what shadowcat is saying IS that not just in sweden, but I would throw in the rest of Europe, people are quicker to get a D. If a couple is having marriage problems, and one partner meets someone eles, they D their S quickly verses like an american, who rather sneak around for years decieving the S, Family, friends, ...ect. Europeans are more blunt, open.... they dont "hide " well. " Their "porn industry is open... Here people talk it down, but still look at it behind "CLOSED doors in secret. ... as long as no one see, its ok, attitude. So I think this crosses over to A as well. As long as nobody knows, its ok.... instead of making a decision to say, Oh, my M is in trouble, I better work on it with my S, Or I lay my cards on the table and set my S free. I guess it the puritans belief that is lingering in the forfront of americans belief system. I rather be upfront and deal with truth...

This is not true. In many european countries men remain in their marriages and have mistresses. It's a time honored tradition. Where did you come up with this quick divorce no sneaking notion?

[Reggie]

you suspect I am overmatched? On what grounds pray you?

 

I sincerely do not see the relevance of questionning the OP on questions of nationhood. Do you mean to tell me you believe ALL Americans share the same values? Sure, she made the mistake first by describing her network's understanding or relationship as the Scandinavian way. Gamine corrected it and Shadowcat nuanced her view. My experience of Scandinavian countries does tell me that the truth lies somewhere in between Gamine's and Shadowcat's experience. Neither of them can generalize their view of relationship as being the view of all Scandinavians.

 

I feel that harping on these details are just a way to attack the OP and offer very little in terms of guidance.

 

If the views of her country are not relevant, why did she bring them up? I say the "nuancing" was more backtracking when she found that she had an audience containing a member equipped to refute her allegations.

I live in a part of the US that is filled with folks of swedish descent and I've met many vistors from Sweden. I played golf with a buddy from Sweden last week. I think it is hogwash that the Swedes jsut cast aside their marriages if they are attracted to someone else. And, many are religous as hell.

And, now, the fact that it is a LDR with an American is supposed to have some meaning in terms of the 4 year affair not being longterm. Explain that one to me.

Look, bottom line, cultural differences notwithstanding, is that the type of behavior demonstrated in this situation , is the standard lying, deceiving, robbing time and resources from another, that is inherent in all affairs. Even if one were to accept the preposterous position that it is no big deal in Sweden, it is cruel, hurtful behavior. Why not be honest with the BW from the start, so she can make some informed decisions re here life.

[Reggie]

Pinkie, help me here, I do not have the book handy since I handed it over to MM.

 

As I remember it, MM is to concentrate on the how and when. Questions like economy and the kids, to make her feel secure that the practicalities will be provided for, to make the transition easier for her.

 

Remember this is a man who has just chosen one woman over another. That issue is not something that can be helped by discussing it with the woman not chosen. The author states to, once the decision is made, wait a couple of days before telling to make certain you stand by your decision and have no change of heart.

 

To me it was a relief to read this. To trust the man that he is capable of making a regret proof decision which I would have to respect. MM has so many times "ended" our relationship only to in the next moment or the next day take it back. If there is a way in which he can find his internal answer, that will benefit us all.

 

I read a review by a BS who had gotten the book from her therapist after D-day. She stated it helped her so much to understand what had happened, why her husband had become involved in an affair. I suggest those BS questioning the book, read it themselves and get their own opinion of it. You might be surprised, there might be something for you to learn as well.

 

Again, decisions re the BW's life without any input from her. Just like the initial decison to cheat. It is unconscionable.

[Shadowcat]

Well, why doesn't the book recommend the guy tell his wife, upfront, that he intends to have a relationship with another women, before he does it? This whole moving on into another relationship for years behind someone's back is a demonstation of dishonesty.

Do you ever consider that the BS is relying on representations your MMhas made and continues to make which are totally false? How can this be a good person, if he is so dishonest and defrauding his wife?

Presumably, although I do not know, the two celebrities you mention that are heralded with the national song, were upfront with their spouses before embarking on their relatioship. If not, I think it is a sad statement that they are applauded.

Tell us, don't you have some question about this MM's character, since he has done this? And why were you complicit if it violates your values?

 

I am not sure about the two celebrities, and it wasn't the national song by the way. My impression was that they had had a hidden affair before telling their spouses.

 

The book is trying to help MM end the affair by making a choice of one of the two women or what is closest to his heart, not judge him or tell him what he should have done. It states that feeling guilty is actually in the way of ending the affair, so the author tries to relieve the guilt to further taking action instead.

 

I do not have any questions about MM's character. He is a good man. As I said, too good, he just does not want anybody to get hurt. Which of course is impossible.

 

It violated my values to stay in a long term affair, not to engage with a MM whom I already was in love with and he with me. Remember we had history, we had just lost contact. "All's fair in love and war."

[Shadowcat]

Again, decisions re the BW's life without any input from her. Just like the initial decison to cheat. It is unconscionable.

 

Yeah, I can just hear that discussion:

 

"Honey, do you think you are my one true love or that the OW is?"

[Reggie]

Yeah, hurt whoever you want. It's "love" right. The end justifies the means. What a way to go through life.

You need to look more closely at this guy. He's been cheating on his wife for 4 years, now. I bet he cheats at golf.

[Reggie]

Yeah, I can just hear that discussion:

 

"Honey, do you think you are my one true love or that the OW is?"

How old is this guy? Christ, is he still a teenager. One true love for how long. You've seen how this goes in past relationships. Can this guy keep his word and honor his committments? Obviously not.

[Shadowcat]

"And, many are religous as hell."

 

According to Wikipedia:

"Sverige är ett av världens minst religiösa länder. Religionssociologiska undersökningar visar att 46–85% av Sveriges befolkning kan kategoriseras som ateistisk, agnostisk eller icketroende (på Gud)."

 

My translation:

"Sweden is one of the least religious countries in the world. Social studies concerning religion show that 46-85% of Sweden's population can be cathegorized as atheistic, agnostic or non-believing (in God)."

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I bet he cheats at golf.

 

A self-proclaimed serial cheater once said to me... "a man who cheats at golf is only cheating himself."

 

Aparently cheating in a marriage isn't cheating ones self but ones partner...maybe that's the difference????

[Shadowcat]

Reggie,

I am new on this board so I would be interested in hearing what your background is. Were you the reformed serial cheater or was that someone else? In that case I don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to a long term extramarital relationship like ours between two good people who are trying to do the best of a troublesome situation.

[norajane]

Pinkie, help me here, I do not have the book handy since I handed it over to MM.

 

As I remember it, MM is to concentrate on the how and when. Questions like economy and the kids, to make her feel secure that the practicalities will be provided for, to make the transition easier for her.

 

Remember this is a man who has just chosen one woman over another. That issue is not something that can be helped by discussing it with the woman not chosen. The author states to, once the decision is made, wait a couple of days before telling to make certain you stand by your decision and have no change of heart.

 

To me it was a relief to read this. To trust the man that he is capable of making a regret proof decision which I would have to respect. MM has so many times "ended" our relationship only to in the next moment or the next day take it back. If there is a way in which he can find his internal answer, that will benefit us all.

 

How does it benefit the betrayed wife if he decides to stay with her? She's getting a cheater who has been lying and cheating for 4 years and she doesn't even know it!

 

Doesn't she get a say in making a decision about whether she wants to be with him after he's been cheating, lying, and manipulating her for years???

 

How does she benefit by him making her life decisions for her without even a hint of what he's been up to behind her back? Maybe she'd rather decide to leave his cheating ass!

 

You want to trust that a man who is selfish enough to lie for years to the woman he committed to in marriage, and who is selfish enough to also string along another woman for years in an affair - all for his own self-centered wants - to make a decision that will benefit everyone?

 

That must be some magic formula in that book to turn a selfish man into one with integrity, and regret-proof, no less.

[Gamine]

If all of this running around resulted in everyone's happiness I'd be a fool not to 'support' it.

 

No one wins when you have to destroy someone else to 'have who or what' you want. Trust me, the ends do not justify the means.

 

I suppose the entire topic of an OW providing a MM a self help book to encourage him to 'choose' between his mistress and his wife seems... well, for lack of a better word... in bad taste.

 

The reality is that this MM is not a nincumpoop. And... handing him this book is not enigmatic and certainly not altruistic. It seems like a false benevolence and I suppose that is why it bothers me so much.

 

It's like ... lookie here... this is what you need to do. You need to choose... and here is a workbook and some sheets of paper and a No. 2 pencil so read pages 1-100 tonight, complete the exercises, and give me a book report in the morning. As if he is a child.

 

Frankly, I can't comment on a book I haven't read. However, it doesn't require someone to be a genius to list the pros and cons of staying or leaving a job, a location, moving to a new house, or getting a new pair of shoes. Of course, it helps to view things logically when lost in the midst of pure emotions and when one is doing things that are illogical. It certainly makes sense to approach a decision that affects many people's lives with LOGIC. However, after the logic subsides and we have reduced people who love us into glorified chess pieces in our private game called life... where have we parked our conscience? Where have we parked our compassion?

 

But people ARE NOT possessions. They are living, breathing, feeling, vulnerable creatures with each having their own hopes and dreams. Inasmuch as Shadowcat didn't enjoy being cheated on it is doubtful if her MM's wife enjoys it either. This MM is sharing himself with his mistress. His mistress knows he is married and has agreed to share him with another woman... who happens to be his wife. His wife is the only person in this triangle getting duped. That is why it is wrong. If all players are on equal footing... fine. Each is in possession of the facts and has something to say about their own destiny. Why would a MM's mistress believe for one moment that she should be the arbiter of another woman's life?

 

When I leave this world I plan on going to heaven. I plan on laying my head down with a big smile knowing that I lived well. I don't want a scarf from Bergdorf's if I have to shoplift it.

 

I look close to 20 years younger than my years. 48 yrs. old... and I recently sat next to a young man on a plane en route to Amsterdam who thought I was 28. I look good, have had no plastic surgery... BECAUSE I live right. I'm not weighed down with baggage and with lying and deceit. You'd be surprised how that ages you.

 

I am not uplifted by tearing you down. I am not joyous because I have brought you sorrow. I am not proud because I have shamed you.

 

We do not have to live our lives at another's expense. If you have hurt someone you have done wrong. You have done wrong and I don't care how many books say otherwise. No one needs to die inside so that you have what you want in life.

 

Living with generosity of spirit and with love in your heart is so much better.

[Shadowcat]

Gamine,

Your English is better than mine. You use many words I do not know. So I am a bit curious about how long you have lived in Sweden and are you really living there now? Are you of Swedish bloodline, or maybe you are of Swedish bloodline but born in America or at least living there now? If you really are living in Sweden, you obviously belong to the religious minority since you are planning to go to heaven.

[Reggie]

I've not cheated, SC. I've never murdered anyone either, yet I know the charming, good man, Ted Bundy, was a monster. Our actions define us. Hitler liked dogs.

Regardless of the stats on religion, the Swedes I know are highly ethical. Take God out of this, then. How about the ethics of what you two are doing.

[Reggie]

it is so difficult for people to believe sometimes that engaging in this sort of thing does not automatically make one a bad/irresponsible/insensitive/immoral person. and it IS what's confusing about this situation - that you cannot help but see the person who is cheating on their spouse as a good person, because you are in love with them. the truth is that everyone is capable of both heroic and cowardly acts, both intense tenderness and heartless insensitivity, both starved, greedy selfishness and selfless sacrifice. i see a lot of polarization happening here, right and wrong, moral and immoral. that is just not the way things go. the human psyche is a complex, winding, inscrutible thing, and thinking that we can separate the world into people who do good things and people who do bad things is a recipe for unhappiness. cat, your MM may well stay with his wife, and if he does you will be devastated and go through a period of being intensely angry at him, during which time it will be far less painful to think of him as a bad person than to sit with the pain of what you have lost. or he may leave her and stay with you, in which case she will go through the same process. these are the moments when we are most likely to polarize and split - when we are emotionally comprimised and therefore defending like mad. ambiguity is a terrifying thing. much less scary to make delineations: MP is wrong for cheating, OP is wrong for colluding, OP has no right to feel pain because BS is the legal proprietor of all feelings of betrayal by virtue of the marriage contract. or, to some of us in certain stages, MP is capable of no wrong, totally blameless, OP is fully justified in holding her/himself open in waiting for a decision from MP, BS is an obstructive non-entity who will just have to deal with themselves. how about: MP is human, has strayed for reasons known only to them. MP may be selfishly wanting cake and eating too, or may be genuinely torn between two people h/she loves very much and is struggling to make right what cannot possibly be made right. OP may be a manipulative hungry love addict who cannot find a relationship of their own and therefore seeks to destroy others, or may also be a totally moral human being who is experiencing emotions that h/she does not know how to deal with, and therefore makes some seriously bumbling errors. BS may be an absolutely innocent victim or may also have greatly contributed to the dynamic in which the affair begins to grow. there are no easy answers, and i suspect that in most cases it is all of the above; folks are admirable in love and deeply selfish about the keeping of it. love is the surest, quickest, shortest route to our most vulnerable places, and perfectly good and reputable people can easily act like squalling babies. the fact that you are on this site cat suggests that you are seeking answers, looking for the light in a truly stormy sky. it's the best we can do. i wish you well in protecting your heart while keeping it open to possibilities. it is nearly impossible, but we must all try.

 

Actually, people that have strong boundaries and abide by them are some of the happiest folks I know. Folks with a strong moral code have a sense of certainty that makes life and the decisons involved simpler and less stressful. They have less anxiety.

And, no , not every human is capable of this type of cowardice and cruelty. It may be some comfort to folks that do this type of thing to think so, but it is not true.

Life really is not all that complicated and things are really not all gray. I've done things in my life of which I am deeply ashamed. But, I have no illusions that everyone is capable of this type of ******* behavior. I know my mom is not. I know lots of people that would not stoop to the levels I have, in the past.

[GreenEyedLady]

I'm reading this and scratching my head here...

 

Is it that crazy that an OW post her thoughts in THE OW FORUM?

 

I really am at a loss here. I had to check the top of the forum and make sure I was in OM/OW forum.

 

Guess what people?! The OP's here love their MP's and want to take the risk! So get off your high horses people! Your words fall on deaf ears here!

 

OP: He doesn't need a book to get him to choose. YOU MAKE THE CHOICE FOR HIM. He has REJECTED you how many times here? You must take the initiative. He will never choose because he doesn't want to. He wants what he has and you're letting him have it. Make him RESPECT you. Don't give him a book. Give him a wake up call. Or accept that what you have, is all you'll get.

 

GEL