any contact w/ the spouse of MM/W?

[Owl]

 

I can't put words to the pain involved for the OW in this situation, I can't speak for the BW but in my case she made up some VERY severe and damaging lies about me to tell her H when he told her he was thinking of leaving for me. And these got round the small community. It was the enormity of these lies which made me see that actually she was absolutely never any friend of mine anyway. So I have too much anger towards her and don't respect her enough to want to get on my knees.. I do have fantasies about giving her a huge hug and both of us just bursting into tears but ... any formal apology - I'd feel I was just rubbing it in her face. It's bad enough that she has to pass my house every day. Do you have to see her regularly Dobler? If so it might be less awkward if you do settle things properly now... and the letter was definitely a good move if so.

 

Consider this...she was likely trying to find a way...any way that she could...to attempt to hurt you as much as you hurt her.

 

She likely WAS your friend, just as much as you were hers.

 

But the scope of your betrayal likely turned the depth of that friendship into an equal depth of hatred. It happens...when you feel strong emotions for someone, and then something changes the situation...often you end up feeling equally strong but opposite emotions towards that person.

 

If you take time to consider the whole thing from her view...just how big and deep that betrayal was...you might understand why her friendship turned to hatred...and why she tried to hurt you as deeply as you hurt her.

 

I'm not saying her lies were justified...what I'm saying is, you might be able to see it from her viewpoint.

[Stepone]

I am also curious as to how you feel that you could not help being in love. That seems odd to me, as true love requires some cultivating. And, how could this guy be in love with you before you were in love with him? I can understand his being attracted or infatuated or having admiration. But, love? How'd he do that without some reciprocity? How did he do that without a level of intimacy that was inappropriate.

Perhaps your therapist is asking these questions and you are figuring them out.

But, the allegation that you guys could not help it seems irresponsible. And, the allegation that he already loved you without some reciprocity does not ring true.

 

Matters of the heart are not so clear cut

These things can develop very innocently. Even just a shared humour, being close to someone on a regular basis, seeing them in different situations.. getting used to their aura, the way they look, smell, smile.. look after their kids.. play with yours.. love can build without any bad intentions. Finding you are looking forward to seeing the other person's spouse more than your own.... after years of all this, how how HOW do you stop yourself kissing them? In my case - I sometimes even think that first explosive forbidden kiss was worth every second of Hell that followed.

 

If someone is a serial affair partner/cheater it's different. But the first time... I don't know many people with the resources to deal with it wisely. You live and learn. The moral of the story is don't hang around with married people!!

[dobler33]

hey, fast and furious now! i can't keep up! reggie, you ask very good questions that i'll be trying to figure out for years. in terms of the irresponsibility of the thing, my education and training as well as all my personal life experience tells me that we cannot in fact control the way we feel, only what we do about it. i can't answer any of the questions you pose to him - how could he have been in love without reciprocity, etc. - i can only report what he told me. we had slowly become very close friends, which for me turned into attraction, which turned into love. that was my experience. i can't prove or disprove it. according to him, he had known he was in love with me for some time and had believed that being a close friend would be enough. i'm sure he deeply regrets having missed the red flags along the way, or perhaps even ignored them, as do i. i make no excuses for myself. i only report the way i experienced it.

 

stepone, that must be very painful to have to run into these folks, and also to have been slandered in your small town. the OW/M is usually the one that takes the brunt of the social ostracization. i'm still waiting to see how much of that will go on in my case. i don't think anyone from that social circle really knows what happened, and the folks who are my friends of course saw me go through it and have been very supportive. it is possible but not likely that i'll run into her or him, but i hope it won't be for a long time to come, as i am just totally unprepared for that at this point.

[2sure]

Composing and sending a response to the wife's response of your original response to the affair ending....

 

Is just another venue to keep the affair an active part of your life.

 

Stop it.

[Stepone]

Consider this...she was likely trying to find a way...any way that she could...to attempt to hurt you as much as you hurt her.

 

She likely WAS your friend, just as much as you were hers.

 

But the scope of your betrayal likely turned the depth of that friendship into an equal depth of hatred. It happens...when you feel strong emotions for someone, and then something changes the situation...often you end up feeling equally strong but opposite emotions towards that person.

 

If you take time to consider the whole thing from her view...just how big and deep that betrayal was...you might understand why her friendship turned to hatred...and why she tried to hurt you as deeply as you hurt her.

 

I'm not saying her lies were justified...what I'm saying is, you might be able to see it from her viewpoint.

 

Thanks Wise Owl! To be honest though I can't see it from her viewpoint (yet?) - it's complicated really. I just can't help thinking she hated me all along. From the very beginning of our friendship she sat me down, before I had even met her H, and said "you are his exact type in every way".. it was like she was trying to push us together or something.. she taunted him about it too. i dunno, she has issues. But I can hardly blame him for wanting an affair, all she ever does is clean. her faucets sees more action than him. i just wanted to make the man feel appreciated and desired for once as he is amazing and so hot and sexy. and i did.. at a price

[Owl]

Stepone I'd bet you a considerable sum that she has very similar doubts about YOUR motives as well.

 

She's probably firmly convinced that your goal from the very beginning was to be with him...and that your friendship with her was nothing more than a convenient lie to get to that point.

 

I am not saying that this is true...on the contrary, I believe that you were good friends.

 

But having lived through what she's gone through, I'd tell you that I struggled with this same thought myself for a long time, and even after my time here and on other boards, I still go back and forth as to whether or not there really was anything to my supposed "friendship" with OM.

 

All of this just adds to my belief that once the affair is started, the friendship is dead with no hope at all of resurrection.

 

It's death is part of the "price of an affair" if you will.

 

I'd suggest that you not spend time stressing over what you can't fix or change. Heal...and learn from what happened.

[herenow]

As much as the OW may not owe the BW anything, the BW doesn't owe the OW anything either. It's unreasonable to expect a BW to act any more compassionate towards the OW than the OW acted towards the BW. Just because the affair is over, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

If you are looking for your "friend" to put aside her anger because you are writing some nice words to her, you are bound to be disappointed. Actions speak so much louder than words and your actions were not the least bit friendly.

 

You can write al the letters you want, but it's clear IMO that they are only written to make you feel better. As some have said , if you really cared about your friendship, you wouldn't have a reason to be writing these letters in the first place.

 

You are making your guilt the BW's problem and that is just a selfish as what you did with her H. Leave her alone. You (and more importantly her H) have already done enough harm, if you have even the slightest bit of compassion for your ex-friend, let her be. If at all possible get out of her life completely ASAP. If she wants to talk to you she knows how to reach you.

 

This is her time to heal her marriage without anymore of your interference. You should not be part of her life and she should deal with her H and only her H when it comes to the affair. Any interference from you hinders the reconciliation process. Unless that's what you are trying to do. This is no longer about you. You need to move on. JMO

[herenow]

Composing and sending a response to the wife's response of your original response to the affair ending....

 

Is just another venue to keep the affair an active part of your life.

 

Stop it.

 

Yes, yes , yes. STOP IT NOW! Unless of course you don't want your friend to be able to fix her marriage.

[Reggie]

Thanks Wise Owl! To be honest though I can't see it from her viewpoint (yet?) - it's complicated really. I just can't help thinking she hated me all along. From the very beginning of our friendship she sat me down, before I had even met her H, and said "you are his exact type in every way".. it was like she was trying to push us together or something.. she taunted him about it too. i dunno, she has issues. But I can hardly blame him for wanting an affair, all she ever does is clean. her faucets sees more action than him. i just wanted to make the man feel appreciated and desired for once as he is amazing and so hot and sexy. and i did.. at a price

 

How noble of you. Looks like you have issues, as well, bigger ones. Sorry to TJ, but this was just too much.

[Reggie]

dobler, you are obviously bright. But, really, do you feel we cannot help how we feel? I'm not talking about the intial attraction thing. But, this thing progressed.

In my ancietness, I have come to realize that I can control how I feel. If I am attracted to someone and that person is off limits, I can definitely nip any feelings in the bud. I've done this a lot. I've been approached by very attractive married women.

It also seems somewhat childlike(sorry if this is insulting) that you feel what you two had was truly love. I know you had the good sense not to use the term soulmate, but that seems to be what you are describing.

Ask yourself this, if this guy truly loved you, why did he participate in something bound to cause you pain and damage? I guess the same thing could be asked about whether you were ever truly friends with his wife.

One can come up with countless analogies. If I really like my good frind's golf clubs and steal them, how much did I really care about the guy? Stuff like that.

It makes you take a hard look at yourself, eh?

Glad that your H is seeking help. Making any restitution, in additon to stopping the affair and getting help? Have you taken the initiative in getting MC for the two of you? Have you fully disclosed all details if he's requested them?

[Stepone]

How noble of you. Looks like you have issues, as well, bigger ones. Sorry to TJ, but this was just too much.

 

Yeah true. But "Issues"? Noone's ever called 'em that before

[Reggie]

Well work on them ,step. And, beware of gravity.

[Stepone]

LOL no worries Reg, I have a very uplifting and supportive "therapist"!

[2sure]

Stepone -

 

I'm just going to say it.

You aren't sorry for the affair.

Not yet anyway. Not really. Sorry for something, sorry for yourself most likely. And if thats what I read here, I cant help but think that thats what came through to the wife in your letter of apology.

 

Read your own posts, disparaging both her and her marriage. You are justifying the affair and apologizing to her at the same time.

 

Now, none of the above means you are a bad person, it simply says that right now your emotions are conflicting. You shouldn't be sending anything.

[Stepone]

Stepone -

 

I'm just going to say it.

You aren't sorry for the affair.

Not yet anyway. Not really. Sorry for something, sorry for yourself most likely. And if thats what I read here, I cant help but think that thats what came through to the wife in your letter of apology.

 

Read your own posts, disparaging both her and her marriage. You are justifying the affair and apologizing to her at the same time.

 

Now, none of the above means you are a bad person, it simply says that right now your emotions are conflicting. You shouldn't be sending anything.

 

Hey 2

 

I am really sorry but I appear to have unwittingly committed a major t/j . My situation is fairly similar to dobler's but I am not the OP! I never sent the BW in my case any apology for the very reasons you stated - at the moment, I am indeed too angry to be sorry and in my heart, I am sorry not really at what I have done, but for what I have lost by doing it. Because I stopped the affair after a matter of days, I feel doing this was more valuable to her than any apology on my part. Dobler really does seem sorry so it was right for her to send the letter IMO.

[2sure]

I am SO sorry. I dont know how I did that.

I do it at cocktail parties too.

[Mr. Lucky]

there was some implication that i slept with the MM, which i did not. throughout the entirety of the affair we both tried desperately to deal with the fact that we were in love (which we couldn't help) by acting as responsibly as possible (which we could). there were a couple of slip-ups, short but intense make-out sessions, but we always managed to keep our clothes on and stop the train.

While (as you mention) this point may be important to you, I doubt that his wife would find much comfort in it. In fact the reverse may be true - it might have been easier for her to handle, understand and forgive a physical relationship than an emotional "in love" one. I'm surprised that your background doesn't give you more insight into this...

 

Mr. Lucky

[dobler33]

wow. i'm going to respectfully remove myself from this thread, as it seems to me that the focus of the conversation has become the project of convincing me and others like me that we are wrong and unforgiveable. of course we know it was wrong. of course we wish we had done things differently. of course we wish that our actions had not hurt those we care about, and that we ourselves had not been hurt. we all make our decisions based on what seems best to us at the time, and in retrospect we can sometimes see that another choice would have been better. i made my choices based on a relationship i thought i wanted and would have access to. i was clearly wrong on at least one of those points, and i continue to pay the price - in my marriage, in my community, in my heart. i assure those of you who seem to suggest that i am unaware of or trying to dodge those consequences that nothing could be farther from the truth. i accept the price of my affair. i accept the guilt of having lost a friend because i betrayed her horribly. i wish it had never happened. i wish i had done things differently, both because of the heartbreak it caused the people i love and the heartbreak it has caused me. i promise you that i am penitently paying every day.

 

it seems to me that some folks might want to be posting in another forum. i'm new to LS so i humbly accept that i might be wrong here, but i had thought this particular forum was for OW/M. that is why i felt safe enough to pose the original question; because it seemed like people who had been through something similar might offer the support and guidance of their own experience. this does not seem to be the case here, as i have seen a number of posters who are - quite validly, i will point out - coming from the other side of that experience. i absolutely respect the pain and suffering caused by the person who stood in my position for you folks and wish you strength and love to recover from what is undoubtedly one of the most traumatic things that has ever happened to you. but there is another side as well, as there is to all human experience, and we should all try to respect each other's humanity.

 

thanks.

[datura_noir]

I stay out of this forum for the most part-but the OP's situation and the fact that I have more time on my hands at the moment compels me to respond:

 

I have no doubt you feel remorse for what this situation has led to. And as women, we tend to over-analyze and psychologically vomit these events into a trap of our own design. As the BS (sorry for intruding here), you must see that she needs the final say in this mess in order for her heart to heal and forgive her H.

 

So, let her feel any way she must. Don't respond, respect the space that has been created. She and her Husband now must deal with their marriage. And as much passion as you two must have felt, it ultimately was not meant to be.

 

Reconcile your own relationship with your Husband at this point; as hard as it is, focus on the two of you. whether that means divorce or reconciliation.

 

Peace to you.

[bentnotbroken]

wow. i'm going to respectfully remove myself from this thread, as it seems to me that the focus of the conversation has become the project of convincing me and others like me that we are wrong and unforgiveable. of course we know it was wrong. of course we wish we had done things differently. of course we wish that our actions had not hurt those we care about, and that we ourselves had not been hurt. we all make our decisions based on what seems best to us at the time, and in retrospect we can sometimes see that another choice would have been better. i made my choices based on a relationship i thought i wanted and would have access to. i was clearly wrong on at least one of those points, and i continue to pay the price - in my marriage, in my community, in my heart. i assure those of you who seem to suggest that i am unaware of or trying to dodge those consequences that nothing could be farther from the truth. i accept the price of my affair. i accept the guilt of having lost a friend because i betrayed her horribly. i wish it had never happened. i wish i had done things differently, both because of the heartbreak it caused the people i love and the heartbreak it has caused me. i promise you that i am penitently paying every day.

 

it seems to me that some folks might want to be posting in another forum. i'm new to LS so i humbly accept that i might be wrong here, but i had thought this particular forum was for OW/M. that is why i felt safe enough to pose the original question; because it seemed like people who had been through something similar might offer the support and guidance of their own experience. this does not seem to be the case here, as i have seen a number of posters who are - quite validly, i will point out - coming from the other side of that experience. i absolutely respect the pain and suffering caused by the person who stood in my position for you folks and wish you strength and love to recover from what is undoubtedly one of the most traumatic things that has ever happened to you. but there is another side as well, as there is to all human experience, and we should all try to respect each other's humanity.

 

thanks.

 

 

I believe that you are sincere and honest in your attempt to make things right. You did the right thing in sending the letter the first time. Yes you were wrong, but unforgivable, never. We can all be forgiven, all we have to do is ask, and it seems that you have done just that. And whether you see it or not, you are different than a lot who come here. You came here already on the road to totally recovery and healing. You faced yourself, accepted what you needed to change and started the steps to do just that. You have shown remorse and a commitment to try to apologize(don't send another letter, you already did what you need to, the rest is on her) and that to me speaks volumes. Many blessings.

[sugarmomma]

I think tha she would view the situation a little differently had she ended the A as opposed to him.

 

It is different based on who ends the A, MM or OW. When the MM ends it, its more of a betrayal to the OW who he has finally proven himself to be a liar to.

 

Whereas, when the OW ends it she is usually refuses to wait or the reality of the situation kicks in.

 

For the ne OW that posts I am always going to suggest to get out unless they are comfortable in their situation like Lizzie and I can respect that.

[Lyssa]

When they were still married, FMM's W emailed me a few times. It just a few months into the relationship. It was decent. Now we all get along just fine.

[OWoman]

I've had fleeting contact with the xBW of my H, but only since the D. Mostly she tries very hard to avoid places or situations she suspects we'll be, and when she misjudges she leaves as soon as she's aware we're there.

 

I did once consider contacting her in response to some behaviour that was causing a great deal of upset, but bit my tongue and let her get over herself instead. Although she did her reputation some damage in the process, the difficulties did resolve themselves and I'm glad I didn't engage, as it would likely have taken on a life of its own.

 

My H still has minimal occasional contact with her about the kids, but beyond that she no longer exists to him. The kids also don't mention her when they're here, and likely don't mention us to her. They have one photo of her that I put in their study, which they took down and put in a drawer, but aside from that it's as if she's been airbrushed from history.

[Owl]

in terms of the irresponsibility of the thing, my education and training as well as all my personal life experience tells me that we cannot in fact control the way we feel, only what we do about it.

 

I find it very difficult to believe that a psychoanalyst would come to this conclusion.

 

Would you NOT agree that things/emotions/relationships only grow when we FEED them? When we invest our own energy and focus into them?

 

They certainly DIE when we don't feed them, when we STOP investing in them...would you agree with this?

 

Given that...we CAN control "what we feel". We ARE responsible for our relationships.

 

You weren't INSTANTLY in love with this guy. You were ATTRACTED to him initially...and then, you FED that attraction. You invested energy, time, effort into building that relationship...until it blossomed from attraction into love.

 

You didn't FALL into this...you chose to be here.

 

It was a CHOICE...not an accident.

 

And, as a therapist, I'm sure that you'd agree that the first step towards recovery is TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE SITUATION/PROBLEM.

 

Saying you couldn't help yourself isn't doing this.

 

Recognizing how you contributed to the situation would be. Seeing how you CHOSE this path, and therefore have control on what happens from here is your first step.

 

I don't understand how someone well trained in your field would view this any differently.

[nocontact2]

in pains of labor, alone again, 2nd child....i called the home telling her i was sorry i didnt know about her and wanted to make sure her and i werent getting played against each other and lied too.....

 

she said she was in middle of dinner party took down my name and number (which i found odd since he swore he told her about me and kids)

 

she never called me....

 

few days later, a baby lighter, i called her...she just said call our attorneys and dont call my house again then hung up.

 

dont know if that helps you....MM still continued to see me, we are preg. with number 3 now...and i just completed my 1st day ever of NC victory dance:bunny::bunny: