Athiests, where do you get your moral values?

[westernxer]

How about self-interest? So...what makes "us" so special, that our decisions are driven by self-preservation and interest?

 

You have to admit that self-preservation and self-interest, are a form of self-created dogma...thus, we're ALL living by rote.

 

I believe those are core concepts in our decision making process that trigger action (or lack of), but without some sort of record stored in the mind that can be utilized as precedent, self-preservation and self-interest would not exist, aside from the most fundamental of activities that don't require complex thinking: eating, sleeping, watching television, and hitting on my neighbor's wife. LOL

[Trialbyfire]

I believe those are core concepts in our decision making process that trigger action (or lack of), but without some sort of record stored in the mind that can be utilized as precedent, self-preservation and self-interest would not exist, aside from the most fundamental of activities that don't require complex thinking: eating, sleeping, watching television, and hitting on my neighbor's wife. LOL

I'm not debating that experience drives our decision-making. I'm just stating that at the core of all our decisions made, is instinctual dogma. Otherwise, there would be more truly altruistic deeds facilitated. Most of the current altruistic deeds facilitated, are to make ourselves feel good, rather than sole interest in others.

[westernxer]

Most of the current altruistic deeds facilitated, are to make ourselves feel good, rather than sole interest in others.

 

I agree with you there.

 

Like that one time I allowed those Nigerian scam artists to access my bank account because I felt for their situation. I felt great about helping them out -- until I looked at my bank statement. LOL

[dunstable]

Okay, I'm calling you out for the bolded phrase. Prove it.

The bolded phrase was "I think restraint over killing other human beings is instinctive". You ask me to prove it. I doubt I can do that but my belief in it is based partly on armchair logic - if we all went about killing each other at every opportunity, our species would have died out. Seems common sense to me. Additional support may be found in evolutionary game theory, which shows that a strategy of unmitigated aggression does not pay off in the long run - you can look it up.

 

You've managed to avoid answering all my direct questions. They were specifically targeted to you, not the entire human species. In essence, what drives you. Now go back and answer my questions.

I'm sorry but I didn't see any direct questions aimed at me. Perhaps you could kindly restate them. Your summary question "In essence what drives you" is unclear to me - drives me in what respects?

[Trialbyfire]

I agree with you there.

 

Like that one time I allowed those Nigerian scam artists to access my bank account because I felt for their situation. I felt great about helping them out -- until I looked at my bank statement. LOL

Those Nigerians are clever people, albeit grammatically challenged!

[nobody's girl]

If it harms others, it's probably wrong. If nobody gets hurt, then go for it.

 

I don't do things based on what "God" thinks I should do. I do things based on whether I would want it to happen to me. I wouldn't want to be robbed, so I don't steal. And so on.

 

Depending on what religion a person is connected to, they may not eat certain foods, wear certain clothes, cut their hair, etc. I just don't get that. Does god really have a dress code?

 

So I guess you could say it's just following the old golden rule. Whether it came from god or oz the great and terrible, it seems like a logical rule to follow. IMO.

[D-Lish]

I would be completely free to do anything without guilt. (doesn't sound too bad actually)

 

anyway, Atheists, where do you get your moral values/judgements and how do you decipher whats "wrong"?

 

I'm not sure how one equates a lack of spiritualism and being devoid of morality.

 

It's silly to believe that a person cannot feel any guilt because they don't read the bible. A conscience is a moral compass.

 

I live my life according to my conscience. I strive to be a good person simply for the sake of being a good person- not because I am worried lightning will strike me down or a plague will strike my community. Certainly not because I am terrified that I will spend my afterlife enduring eternal torture.

 

I'm not going to get in to all the horrible things that have been inspired by religious doctrine. Doctrine is subject to interpretation.

 

I have surely done things in my life that I know are wrong, and I always feel like crap as a result.

 

Law and order pre-dates spirituality.

[Woggle]

I am not an atheist but my morality comes from treating others as I would like to be treated myself. I don't want wrong done to me so I extend the same courtesy to others. Also while I do not believe that lightning will strike me I do believe that what you do to others eventually comes back to you. If you screw enough people over one of them will eventually give you a taste of your own medicine.

[TaraMaiden]

I'm not talking about cannabalism since spread of disease is the originating reason for not partaking. I'm talking about "thou shalt not kill" other men. What is so very special about mankind, that we shouldn't be weeded out, allowing evolution of the brightest and strongest, to continue?

 

Our capacity to Reason.

 

We are elevated amongst animals by virtue of the fact that we are able to discuss, argue, analyse, reason and cogitate. We ponder and debate.

 

This does not make it right.

 

because the history of mankind is littered with the cock-ups resulting from such activities.

But we're egotistic, you see....

we rely less on Nature and more on Nurture.

On conditioning, influence, social ethics, mores and customs - and we arrogantly believe we are right to do so.

But in sacrificing our natural tendencies, we now hang precipituously on the edge of self-destruction...

ma\ny years ago, the mentally and physically handicapped would indeed have been left to die, as the weaker of the specise. Survival of the fittest, means a natural gleaning, a separation of the wheat form the chaff.

But since our minds began to evolve, and since social groups began to form, protectionism, Rights and equality came to the fore.

now, we pass judgement on those who do not conform, and show mercy to those who cannot.

 

But consider then, the ethical dilemmas doctors face when they have the problem of whom to medicate...who deserves it most, who has a more logical right to live?

By assuming the mantle of the superior animal, we have created a far greater range of problems for ourselves, than those experienced, for example, by the Chimpanzees.....

 

As a Buddhist, I am taught to develop a sense of Compassion and Loving Kindness for my fellow sentient beings.

But there's no need to be an idiot about it.....

Wisdom and Compassion are the two wings of the bird. if one does not correctly function, the bird cannot fly.

 

My moral values come from the teachings of a man we consider enlightened. A state achievable by anyone, within the right conditions....

 

• Do not wilfully or intentionally harm or kill.
  
• Take nothing that has not been freely given or offered.
  
• Avoid immoral or inappropriate sexual misconduct
  
• Watch your mouth, and don't lie.
  
• Don't indulge in substances that can alter the way you think, and confuse your ability to reason logically.
  

 

Pretty straightforward, really.

[dunstable]

Our capacity to Reason.

 

We are elevated amongst animals by virtue of the fact that we are able to discuss, argue, analyse, reason and cogitate. We ponder and debate.

 

...

 

As a Buddhist, I am taught to develop a sense of Compassion and Loving Kindness for my fellow sentient beings.

But there's no need to be an idiot about it.....

Wisdom and Compassion are the two wings of the bird. if one does not correctly function, the bird cannot fly.

 

My moral values come from the teachings of a man we consider enlightened. A state achievable by anyone, within the right conditions....

 

• Do not wilfully or intentionally harm or kill.
  
• Take nothing that has not been freely given or offered.
  
• Avoid immoral or inappropriate sexual misconduct
  
• Watch your mouth, and don't lie.
  
• Don't indulge in substances that can alter the way you think, and confuse your ability to reason logically.
  

 

Pretty straightforward, really.

I have attended Buddhist meetings many times over the years, and once went on a wonderful weekend retreat.

 

Although I am an atheist, the Buddhist values of "compassion and loving kindness" resonate with my own values.

 

I find the group meditations very helpful (I have tried meditating on my own many times but find I can't do it without the group energy).

 

I also find the Buddhist teachings valid with one partial exception. While I do not believe in reincarnation, I find it a good discipline to act as if it were true. For example, if I am incensed by someone plotting to hurt me, I remember the teaching that in one of my infinity of former lives my worst enemy was my mother and gave me life... I find this calms me down, helps me see things in perspective, and helps me act in a more considered way when responding to the situation.

[TaraMaiden]

I have attended Buddhist meetings many times over the years, and once went on a wonderful weekend retreat.

 

Although I am an atheist, the Buddhist values of "compassion and loving kindness" resonate with my own values.

 

I find the group meditations very helpful (I have tried meditating on my own many times but find I can't do it without the group energy).

 

I also find the Buddhist teachings valid with one partial exception. While I do not believe in reincarnation, I find it a good discipline to act as if it were true. For example, if I am incensed by someone plotting to hurt me, I remember the teaching that in one of my infinity of former lives my worst enemy was my mother and gave me life... I find this calms me down, helps me see things in perspective, and helps me act in a more considered way when responding to the situation.

 

Remember, there is a distinction between Reincarnation, and re-birth.....

 

Only Tibetan Buddhism, of all the schools, ascribes to a reincarnated being.

 

It is taken as read, in Tibetan Buddhism that a Realised Lama may direct his own re-birth into a specific entity, who is then sought by other Lamas and people of high standing within that Tradition, and several scrupulous tests are made to verify that they have indeed located the chosen Tulku (reincarnated Lama). HH the Dalai lama was located when he was 4.....

 

A person of an un-realised state enters a bardo (time-phase) of usually 49 days, between their death and re-birth. This can vary according to their Karma..it could be more, it could be less, depending on the state of their accumulated Positive Karma, against the level of accrued Negative Karma.

 

There is no concept of reincarnation in Theravada.

 

There is no Bardo, or waiting period for re-birth from one conscious sentient being to the next.

 

Many Buddhists would argue that given the constant progress, inexorable and unstoppable, towards dying, that you undergo rebirth all the time.

your Mind-stream is not one constant mind stream, but a series of new mind-sets... reborn all the time....

 

take for example, the idea of going to buy yourself a brand new car. You have the money, you've searched for the best deal, for the best car you can afford, and you're ready to leave the house.

 

But it's raining cats and dogs, so you delay going out.

 

Later, when it stops raining, you could go out, but you've 'changed your mind'....

 

Is this the same mind that earlier decided with all research and investigation, to buy a car?

 

You think?

[Trialbyfire]

Our capacity to Reason.

 

We are elevated amongst animals by virtue of the fact that we are able to discuss, argue, analyse, reason and cogitate. We ponder and debate.

Actually, we've elevated ourselves. I doubt your average chimpanzee looks at humans and says, "Hey boss, yu're speshul".

This does not make it right.

To reinforce this point, we're also the only animal that rationalizes killing our environment, which contains our food, water and air that we breathe. It's like the person who's solely book smart, who runs around spouting ideals but when it comes down to living, can barely get by, since they lack any form of common sense.

[TaraMaiden]

Exactly, this was my point precisely.

 

In response you your first comment, and by way of supporting the second, I think we have just got too big for our own boots.

 

Underpin the human existence with a certain arrogance, and there you have it.....crazy, huh?

 

[Rooster_DAR]

I actually think morality in modern man has evolved through many avenues and influences. I do think that morality in itself started from the dawn or human intelligence and coalesced as we progressed as a social entity.

[mental_traveller]

 

I think to myself, if I didn't feel accountable to God, how would I make my moral judgements?

 

I feel like if I didn't have these moral values based on Christian principles, there would be no "wrong" I could do.

 

I would be completely free to do anything without guilt. (doesn't sound too bad actually)

 

anyway, Atheists, where do you get your moral values/judgements and how do you decipher whats "wrong"?

 

I get moral principles from my ethical intuitions & feelings (e.g. treat others as you'd like to be treated, conscience), and develop that into an overall morality by logical reasoning based on these core principles.

[NoIDidn't]

I think some people, though, regardless of any religious leanings or lack thereof, treat people the way they want to treat them with no thought of how that person actually might feel about it.

 

Instead of treating others the way we want to be treated, I think its more respectful to treat others in a way that they've shown they prefer to be treated (if you know it already, that is). This would take into consideration cultural differences more than an American treating an Iranian the way an American would want to be treated.

 

My 2.

[dunstable]

I feel like if I didn't have these moral values based on Christian principles, there would be no "wrong" I could do. I would be completely free to do anything without guilt.

 

A question to the OP. Don't you think you have some innate moral values that would survive even if you lost your Christian faith?

[NoIDidn't]

A question to the OP. Don't you think you have some innate moral values that would survive even if you lost your Christian faith?

 

I am not the OP, but wanted to answer from my perspective and experience. Growing up in church, this is exactly what some push you into believing. It took going to college and meeting other equally moral, but non-Christian people, to challenge that mindset. It took that because almost everyone I grew up with before then, had the same teaching and seemed to feel the same way about non-Christians somehow not having morals.

 

When you grow up with one value system and its morals included, its hard to imagine that others without that value system could have morals similar to the ones your value system supports (when you aren't exposed to them).

[dunstable]

When you grow up with one value system and its morals included, its hard to imagine that others without that value system could have morals similar to the ones your value system supports....

I think there are many sources of moral values including our genes, the values of the society in which we live, religion, philosophy, and our personal reasoning. While there will be some differences in moral values of religious and non-religious people, there will also be a lot in common due to the other influences on moral values. Also, the moral values of the religious are not homogeneous but vary widely even within a single religion.

 

One could argue that Christian people are not particularly moral because they act out of fear of punishment or desire for reward. True morality is acting right even when there is the ability to get away with doing wrong.

[Enema]

I've heard it argued that we all get our morals from god to keep us from destroying ourselves.

 

Even if you're an atheist, you've got em coz god put them there.

[wuggle]

I've heard it argued that we all get our morals from god to keep us from destroying ourselves.

 

Even if you're an atheist, you've got em coz god put them there.

 

But I don't beleive in God, therefore by your logic I can have no morals, but I know I do, so does this disprove the existance of god or do I get my Morals from somewhere else. Or are you saying that a god I don't believe in or respect (as he doesn't exist) gives them to me regardless, In which case as I dont believe in him I would be totally justified in disowning them as they were forced on me by him, but I don't want to disown them even if they were forced on me , which would seem to imply that they are my morals after all and not forced on me by another.

 

I think this is silly. My morals are mine not god's.

[Trialbyfire]

But I don't beleive in God, therefore by your logic I can have no morals, but I know I do, so does this disprove the existance of god or do I get my Morals from somewhere else. Or are you saying that a god I don't believe in or respect (as he doesn't exist) gives them to me regardless, In which case as I dont believe in him I would be totally justified in disowning them as they were forced on me by him, but I don't want to disown them even if they were forced on me , which would seem to imply that they are my morals after all and not forced on me by another.

 

I think this is silly. My morals are mine not god's.

You don't need to believe in God, for God to exist. He's everywhere and loves you, just like he loves everyone else.

[dunstable]

Even if you're an atheist, you've got em coz god put them there.

Or evolution and natural selection produced our moral values in the first instance and then our reasoning refined them.

[wuggle]

You don't need to believe in God, for God to exist. He's everywhere and loves you, just like he loves everyone else.

 

If he loves me and wants to imbibe me with free will, why does he then impose a moral code on me ?

[Trialbyfire]

If he loves me and wants to imbibe me with free will, why does he then impose a moral code on me ?

God is our parent. He raises us with a strong foundation but then, has to let go at some time, believing in our ability to make the right choices.

 

Keep in mind that if you don't follow the tenets given, you'll be disinherited.