reconcilliation? how goes it?

[boldjack]

All BS'S stories are different and their reasons for staying in the marriage are also different. The key determining factors are probably the character and maturity of the BS. Weak people (doormats) will stay because they are intimidated by the WS and afraid of being alone, like a cur dog that returns to the master, who beats it. Strong people will stay because they are mature enough to try to repair a relationship that has meaning for them, without giving up any of their options or morals. I used to have very little respect for most of my MW's husbands, I felt that If they were real men, their wives wouldn't be cheating in the first place. Of course now I realize that I was merely using this to salve my own guilt. When I began to meet and talk to them, most weren't the "weak sisters", that I thought they were.

[Snowflower]

you know, jwi, i'm a little reluctant to answer that question, as it has been my experience on this board that saying where your head was at or what your emotional state was at the time of your infidelity usually invites people to come at you with fists raised, invalidating everything you felt and telling you there was no excuse for your behavior. i'd be happy to tell you what i was feeling and what pulled me to the OM, where my marriage was at, how i rationalized it to myself..... are you genuinely interested or do you have an axe to grind? forgive my paranoia, i'm just a bit gun-shy at this point.

 

 

I get what you are saying here, dobler. I am a BS - so I am on the opposite side of the fence as you but I don't like to see WS receive such a bashing here.

 

It seems if a WS tries to explain why they had an affair then they are told that there are justifying, rationalizing or excusing their behavior. They are usually bashed severely by some of the BS on this board.

 

I have always said that an explanation is not an excuse. My husband and I have had many talks about his mindset and his explanations regarding his affair. It does not excuse it, but he and I had to figure out why it happened.

 

I would think as a WS, it is critical to figure out why you had an affair, no matter what ultimately happens to your marriage. It is an important piece of self-discovery.

[HsMomma]

Sometimes, I find myself defending my husband, my marriage, myself here on LS, just because I stayed. While I can understand the views of others...nothing has been more valuable to me than the advice and stories of those who have stayed. Regardless of the ultimate results.

 

I dont like insinuations that BS who stay are less of a person. The opposite is often true.

 

2sure - I think it takes an incredible person to be willing to stay after a betrayal. I am sorry you've felt you had to defend your position. While I think it's wonderful that so many people here are willing to help BS's with useful advice, I also have seen the flip side, where it seems they come on here to judge others' choices and put people on the defensive.

 

I commend you for making the decision to stay in your marriage and work things out - I think it is MUCH harder to do that than to leave (and I'm one of the ones who DIDN'T stay with the WS).

 

Cheers!

[2sure]

HsMomma - That was really really nice. Thank you. Sincerely.

[dobler33]

 

I would think as a WS, it is critical to figure out why you had an affair, no matter what ultimately happens to your marriage. It is an important piece of self-discovery.

 

you are absolutely right, SF. i was only reluctant because i have explained to many people on these boards - some genuinely curious and some downright absusive - what was going on for me when i strayed. it gets tiring, especially when every time you do it you open yourself up for a whole new slew of people who haven't read your previous posts to come on board and start questioning your logic/morals/sanity/right to breathe. i know exactly why i had the affair - i was lonely and dissatisfied with my husband and my life, and a man opened his heart to me and gave me everything i felt i was missing. as far as self-discovery, it was the first time i've ever felt truly loved in all the darkest and most shameful shadowed corners of my psyche, which was most certainly a discovery and something i hope to find now in my marriage. i'm not glad it happened, although maybe someday i will be because it gave me a much clearer view of what i want out of relationships and how little i was settling for in my own marriage, and right now the hope is high that because of this trauma we'll be stronger and able to give each other more than pre-affair. the jury is still out on that. hopefully my sharing this with you doesn't cause people to feel justified in reminding me how i shouldn't have had an affair. that part is pretty clear at this point.

[jwi71]

you know, jwi, i'm a little reluctant to answer that question, as it has been my experience on this board that saying where your head was at or what your emotional state was at the time of your infidelity usually invites people to come at you with fists raised, invalidating everything you felt and telling you there was no excuse for your behavior. i'd be happy to tell you what i was feeling and what pulled me to the OM, where my marriage was at, how i rationalized it to myself..... are you genuinely interested or do you have an axe to grind? forgive my paranoia, i'm just a bit gun-shy at this point.

 

It has been my experience that the more you share the better and more specific our advice becomes.

 

Think of it like this, if a patient were to come in to your office and ask for help then proceed to say nothing else...where would you be?

 

So...what is your problem and how can we help? What do you expect of us and how do you think we can help?

 

You seem to have answered that well...you want to forget/move on past your OM. I must say I noticed you spend far more postings speaking of yourself and/or your A (OM) and NOT your H and your M. Which is interesting.

 

And when you do speak of your H, we get scant details of his positives and laundry lists of his depression and his failures as an H. Again...why?

 

So, to answer YOUR question...I ask so that whatever neurons and synapses I have left may try and help.

[Snowflower]

While I can understand the views of others...nothing has been more valuable to me than the advice and stories of those who have stayed. Regardless of the ultimate results.

 

Thanks, 2sure. I agree with you. I like to read about how others coped with, grew from and ultimately moved forward from infidelity. No matter what ends up happening.

 

I also try to help others here because I feel "I got off lucky" in what I had to deal with when compared to others that I read about on these boards. My husband's affair was a shallow, short-lived event that threw him into such inner turmoil that it was not even about the OW, it was about him. I try to share what I have learned if it is appropriate to the thread because then I feel like something good might come out of my difficult experience.

[Snowflower]

and right now the hope is high that because of this trauma we'll be stronger and able to give each other more than pre-affair. the jury is still out on that. hopefully my sharing this with you doesn't cause people to feel justified in reminding me how i shouldn't have had an affair. that part is pretty clear at this point.

 

Thanks for sharing, dobler. I hope your marriage recovers and is made stronger. The painful life lessons are probably the best ones to learn.

[dobler33]

It has been my experience that the more you share the better and more specific our advice becomes.

 

Think of it like this, if a patient were to come in to your office and ask for help then proceed to say nothing else...where would you be?

 

So...what is your problem and how can we help? What do you expect of us and how do you think we can help?

 

You seem to have answered that well...you want to forget/move on past your OM. I must say I noticed you spend far more postings speaking of yourself and/or your A (OM) and NOT your H and your M. Which is interesting.

 

And when you do speak of your H, we get scant details of his positives and laundry lists of his depression and his failures as an H. Again...why?

 

So, to answer YOUR question...I ask so that whatever neurons and synapses I have left may try and help.

 

hey jwi (in my head when i see this it sounds like "jweee":))! so one of the reasons i was reticent was that i'd already gone into all the details in previous posts. of course you cannot be expected to have read every word i've written (although i simply CANNOT imagine why you wouldn't want to;)) but i have learned to be a little careful about restating history here considering the kind of flaming i've seen. you seem not to want to yell at me, which is nice. as for your observation about my posts largely being affair-related as opposed to marriage related, i think that's because it's only been recently that i've felt like my marriage is going to a) survive this and b) be worth saving. also i should make the point that this thread was moved by the moderators from the OM/OM board, which was where i first started posting. i was very, very disillusioned about our prospects before the affair. since the end i've been mainly trying to recover from heartbreak, because for good or ill i really did love the MM. wish i didn't, but there you have it. i do still love my H very much (and i do think it's possible to love two people, although there are many who will disagree) and that love heals up and grows stronger every day we survive this. when i first came on LS i was still in the getting-over-MM stage, and now as time moves on i'm more focused on the rebuilding-my-marriage stage. as for the laundry list of my H's faults, that was mainly in response to people's questions about what was going on for me when i got into the affair - i wasn't justifying it but i was definitely explaining some of the very serious stressors our marriage had been under pre-affair, most of which had to do w my H's depression and refusal to address it. of course i think he's got good qualities - i wouldn't have bothered if not. he's a brilliant musician and intellectual, he cracks me up, he's awesome in bed, he's handsome as hell, and he makes a mean posole. when he's conciously trying to be, he is very supportive and compassionate. he's a great spooner. he can mimic our cat so well that if i'm not looking at them i can't tell who's talking. he sings harmony with me when we're cooking. he can sing and air-guitar the entire law & order theme song. my neice and nephew use him as a jungle gym. my father thinks he walks on moonbeams. on nights when he comes to bed at the same time as me he reads to me. i like him a lot. i think he's a pretty cool guy. i'm grateful that he chose to forgive me, and it was this proof of the strength of his love that stopped me from giving up on him.

 

is that a good laundry list of his good bits?

[tami-chan]

Posole, huh? how about Menudo?

 

Anyway Dopler, does your husband fit the stereotypical "artist type"? my xOM's wife is an artist and was, according to him, diagnosed with BPD. But , apparently, she is suspicious about the meds she is supposed to take, as it takes away/curtails her creativity. Their marriage did not survive and are going through divorce, as we speak. He said , he just coudn't deal with the emotional highs and lows and she couldn't understand, why he couldn't.

[jwi71]

hey jwi (in my head when i see this it sounds like "jweee":))! so one of the reasons i was reticent was that i'd already gone into all the details in previous posts. of course you cannot be expected to have read every word i've written (although i simply CANNOT imagine why you wouldn't want to;)) but i have learned to be a little careful about restating history here considering the kind of flaming i've seen. you seem not to want to yell at me, which is nice. as for your observation about my posts largely being affair-related as opposed to marriage related, i think that's because it's only been recently that i've felt like my marriage is going to a) survive this and b) be worth saving. also i should make the point that this thread was moved by the moderators from the OM/OM board, which was where i first started posting. i was very, very disillusioned about our prospects before the affair. since the end i've been mainly trying to recover from heartbreak, because for good or ill i really did love the MM. wish i didn't, but there you have it. i do still love my H very much (and i do think it's possible to love two people, although there are many who will disagree) and that love heals up and grows stronger every day we survive this. when i first came on LS i was still in the getting-over-MM stage, and now as time moves on i'm more focused on the rebuilding-my-marriage stage. as for the laundry list of my H's faults, that was mainly in response to people's questions about what was going on for me when i got into the affair - i wasn't justifying it but i was definitely explaining some of the very serious stressors our marriage had been under pre-affair, most of which had to do w my H's depression and refusal to address it. of course i think he's got good qualities - i wouldn't have bothered if not. he's a brilliant musician and intellectual, he cracks me up, he's awesome in bed, he's handsome as hell, and he makes a mean posole. when he's conciously trying to be, he is very supportive and compassionate. he's a great spooner. he can mimic our cat so well that if i'm not looking at them i can't tell who's talking. he sings harmony with me when we're cooking. he can sing and air-guitar the entire law & order theme song. my neice and nephew use him as a jungle gym. my father thinks he walks on moonbeams. on nights when he comes to bed at the same time as me he reads to me. i like him a lot. i think he's a pretty cool guy. i'm grateful that he chose to forgive me, and it was this proof of the strength of his love that stopped me from giving up on him.

 

is that a good laundry list of his good bits?

 

Given that, why step out?

[HeidiB125]

Some people don't appreciate what they have until it's gone....or almost gone. I saw on Doctor Phil recently that the husband made no attempt whatsover to work on his marriage, even with her pleadings, UNTIL another man wanted what he was rejecting. Then it was like two dogs fighting over a bone. I just don't understand why she didn't divorce or seperate from, him BEFORE starting up with the other man. THAT seems to be the big question with WS's. Why must everything go on in secret. I think what hurts SO MUCH is not that a partner finds another person that they have a deep connection with or desire to "BE" with but that it's done with such deception. Believe it or not...as much as it would have hurt, I would have respected my husband coming to me and filling me in on his feelings and we could have come to a mutual decision. Again...difficult time understanding someone cheating with the excuse that they thought the marriage was over, or almost over, anyway.

 

We use to have a dog that would bite. Everytime he did it we would say that we just wouldn't allow the same situation to happen where he would bite again. Little did we realize that we could not be on top of every situation that he may decide to bite. It was just in his nature. Once a biter always a biter. Until we finally put him down. Not saying people are like dogs....but something to think about.

[Spark1111]

Some people don't appreciate what they have until it's gone....or almost gone. I saw on Doctor Phil recently that the husband made no attempt whatsover to work on his marriage, even with her pleadings, UNTIL another man wanted what he was rejecting. Then it was like two dogs fighting over a bone. I just don't understand why she didn't divorce or seperate from, him BEFORE starting up with the other man. THAT seems to be the big question with WS's. Why must everything go on in secret. I think what hurts SO MUCH is not that a partner finds another person that they have a deep connection with or desire to "BE" with but that it's done with such deception. Believe it or not...as much as it would have hurt, I would have respected my husband coming to me and filling me in on his feelings and we could have come to a mutual decision. Again...difficult time understanding someone cheating with the excuse that they thought the marriage was over, or almost over, anyway.

 

We use to have a dog that would bite. Everytime he did it we would say that we just wouldn't allow the same situation to happen where he would bite again. Little did we realize that we could not be on top of every situation that he may decide to bite. It was just in his nature. Once a biter always a biter. Until we finally put him down. Not saying people are like dogs....but something to think about.

 

Maddiesue, couldn't agree more. It is normal to develop feeling for another person. Afterall, we are all human and ....it happens.

 

It is the secrecy of the affair, which forces the WS to lie and sneak as they betray their spouse that is sooooooo despicable. That betrayal of trust is what remains so hurtful. I mean, own your feelings and your choices, communicate them honestly to your SO and stop justifying, justifying, justifying.

[Owl]

Maddiesue, couldn't agree more. It is normal to develop feeling for another person. Afterall, we are all human and ....it happens.

 

It is the secrecy of the affair, which forces the WS to lie and sneak as they betray their spouse that is sooooooo despicable. That betrayal of trust is what remains so hurtful. I mean, own your feelings and your choices, communicate them honestly to your SO and stop justifying, justifying, justifying.

 

Here's the thing tho...those feelings don't happen overnight. The ATTRACTION might occur from the first moment you meet someone...but 'falling in love' takes an emotional investment in building that attraction up.

 

You have to feed the attraction so that it grows into "love".

 

It doesn't "just happen".

 

And that's why there's always the secrecy. Because the WS had to feed that attraction secretly in order for the love to grow. Clearly they couldn't have done so openly, or their spouse would have seen it and take action to prevent it from happening.

 

Add into that mix the human penchant for never wanting to admit that they did something wrong/hurtful to someone else...the lies and justifications are inevitable.

[dobler33]

sometimes it does just "happen". sorry, but it's true. and i sort of resent the biting dog analogy, both because i don't consider myself a serial cheater (only 6 weeks in 10 years, and never again) and don't think that making that mistake once definitively means that you will do it again, and also because i really don't want to be "put down". and jwi, i have explained a BAZILLION times why i "stepped out". i'm exhausted. i encourage you to read my former posts if you are truly interested - if you are just trying to re-prove the point that affairs are bad, nothing i say is going to illuminate anything for you.

 

sorry guys, just woke up and clearly did so on the wrong side of the bed.

[dobler33]

and may i also respectfully add (from here on the wrong side of the bed), that claims of wanting to "help" are a bit thin - this thread was initially about advice for rebuilding the marriage, not a constant littany of how bad it was that i strayed. so when folks say "i just want to help" and then hit that hammer on the head over and over, it merely confirms my original wariness about explaining myself to begin with. i very much appreciate folks - BS or OP, doesn't matter - who have proffered constructive insights, and there have been plenty. i am just about over folks who merely want to tell me i'm a bad girl because a) i know it and b) my husband is really the only person who should be able to do so.

 

grrr. maybe i should get back in bed and try again, what do you think?

[boldjack]

Sokay Dobie, you're cute when you're crabby.

[dobler33]

why thank you, my leige. increased coffee consumption is helping. also i just reread my last post and what the hell does "hit that hammer on the head" mean? ai dios. does not bode well for the rest of my day, which will be full of felonious teenagers and daft school administrators. hopefully i will remember how to speak english by the time i leave the house.

[Owl]

sometimes it does just "happen". sorry, but it's true. and i sort of resent the biting dog analogy, both because i don't consider myself a serial cheater (only 6 weeks in 10 years, and never again) and don't think that making that mistake once definitively means that you will do it again, and also because i really don't want to be "put down". and jwi, i have explained a BAZILLION times why i "stepped out". i'm exhausted. i encourage you to read my former posts if you are truly interested - if you are just trying to re-prove the point that affairs are bad, nothing i say is going to illuminate anything for you.

 

sorry guys, just woke up and clearly did so on the wrong side of the bed.

 

 

HOW did it "just happen"?

 

There is no way that someone is completely, totally, 100% in love the very first second they meet someone else.

 

They may be ATTRACTED to that person...certainly.

 

But LOVE takes development. You build love by emotional communication. By sharing emotionally charged conversation, by spending time and energy in learning about and learning to appreciate each other.

 

You feed attraction...and it can then become love.

 

Ergo...NO relationship "just happens". Affairs don't "just happen"...at least emotional affairs cannot. There's always a conscious, intentional CHOICE to invest in the relationship.

 

People who claim that love "just happens" are normally trying to avoid accepting the responsibilty of CHOOSING to feed that attraction...they typically don't want to admit that they intentionally worked to create the relationship.

 

Again...how does someone get a degree in psychoanalysis without understanding the basic premises of relationships?

 

One more thought...paragraphs and punctuation would help us to read your responses MUCH easier, Dobler.

[jwi71]

Sokay Dobie, you're cute when you're crabby.

 

Yeah its EASY to say THAT when all of cyberspace is between you and her...

 

I, for one, am grateful for ANY distance between ME and a crabby, grumpy woman.

[dobler33]

it is my degree in psychoanalysis that leads me to the conclusion that love does sometimes just "happen". if you would like some reading material to back this up i will gladly suggest some. is it your degree in psychoanalysis that is informing your dissent? if so then we can swap relevant articles. there are many types of love; perhaps that is where we are getting into disagreements. and paragraphs i'll give you, but i believe my punctuation is entirely correct.

 

what side of the bed did you get up on?

[HeidiB125]

Don't take the dog analogy personally, Dobler, I just put it out there as food for thought. My meaning behind it is that when someone cheats...it's not a "mistake", even if it happens suddenly or "only" once in their lifetime. You have found out, within yourself, that you are capable of making the decision to cheat. This process takes rationalizing the situation you're in and going forward with your choice to engage in an adulterous relationship with another person. After the affair is found out usually comes the justification and the focusing on the BS's shortcomings as to how and why they could not resist the temptation. (not saying this is you)

 

I do believe that individuals can find the affair so distasteful and the repercussions so hurtful that they will never cheat again. I also know that they can relapse and go through the whole thing again and still feel so very very sorry about it. Time will only tell.

[jwi71]

sometimes it does just "happen".

 

Sorry...defensive and snide and generally pissy attitude this morning aside...NOTHING EVER just happens in AN A. There are NO ACCIDENTS.

OWL said it better than me and I fully concur with him.

 

and jwi, i have explained a BAZILLION times why i "stepped out". i'm exhausted. i encourage you to read my former posts if you are truly interested - if you are just trying to re-prove the point that affairs are bad, nothing i say is going to illuminate anything for you.

 

Care to post a link then? I have read many of your posts and the only explanation I have seen is you were unhappy with your depressed H who was not fulfilling your needs. Which seems incongruous with what you earlier posted to me. And dobler I do have a point...there is a place I want you to go in this...and you may already be there (but I wouldnt know that so I ask questions).

 

Or perhaps another here can summarize her reasons why (presuming I got wrong above).

[Owl]

it is my degree in psychoanalysis that leads me to the conclusion that love does sometimes just "happen". if you would like some reading material to back this up i will gladly suggest some. is it your degree in psychoanalysis that is informing your dissent? if so then we can swap relevant articles. there are many types of love; perhaps that is where we are getting into disagreements. and paragraphs i'll give you, but i believe my punctuation is entirely correct.

 

what side of the bed did you get up on?

 

I'm ALWAYS on the wrong side of the bed...LOL!

 

As far as the correct punctuation...capitals start sentences, and "I" is normally capitalized when it's a pronoun referring to yourself.

 

Yes, I misuse the heck out of the ellipses. And I'm ok with that, because my posts are very easy to read that way.

 

I'd look forward to read anything you've got that talks about instantaneous/spontaneous love, ESPECIALLY as it relates to romantic love (given that this is the focus of "love" as we refer to it in affairs and marriage). Post a thread here on LS with links to the articles, and I'd really enjoy reading them.

 

Any explanations that you can give from your learnings as a psychoanalyst (watered down for us poor laymen, of course) on the subject would be welcomed as well.

[Dexter Morgan]

I know the comment was made in regards to "love", but here is my take on people that say things just "happen".

 

When in the context of an affair, if someone subscribes to the idea that affairs "just happen".....then that is justification for breaking off any marriage or relationship, as if cheating wasn't the only justification one would need in the first place.

 

If someone said to me that their cheating "just happened", this insinuates they had no control over it and things that "happen" can "happen" any other given time.

 

So if someone thinks they have no control over keeping it in their pants or keeping their legs crossed to someone other than their partner and it "just happens"....then the one they betrayed should know that "happenings" can and will "happen" in the future.