reconcilliation? how goes it?

[tml-13]

dobler33

 

Out of curiosity, have you made any "restitutions" towards your BS?

 

I am a BS and am having a hard time dealing with my WWs attitude of "Get Over It!" without any real remorse (at least that's the way I perceive it)....

 

I'm just interested to find out what you are doing for your BH that is helping him...

 

Basically, I need to figure out if I am the "Road block" to recovery....

[dobler33]

tml13 - i have allowed my H to guide me in what he needs to recover from my infidelity. i've answered any question he's asked, but in all honesy he hasn't really wanted to know very much. he's sort of dealing with it by not dealing with it. my best restitution has been to have as much patience as possible, letting him take as much time as he needs. he seems to be on the mend, but i won't be at all surprised if it boils to the surface sometime in the years to come. and when it does i hope to give him the patience and time he needs to work through it.

 

does that sound about right?

[boldjack]

Dobe, Your situation is about as convoluted as it gets. I would suggest a trial separation. Did you say that your H knows that you still have feelings for the MM (family friend!!)? I think that I would have withdrawl issues too, if my woman still had the hots for her ex affair partner. Also, as an analyst, if you knew that your husband had depression and intimacy/connection issues, what could have possessed you to have an affair , in the first place? You had to suspect that it would make him worse. Did you think to "shock", him into seeking treatment? Did you think that it would "force", him to reconnect? I think that you had an affair for your own selfish gratification. While very intoxicating, hardly likely to bring about the changes that you want from your husband. Your husband needs to have treatment by somebody who has no connection to you or recommended by you. He is, after all, your husband, not your patient. You need to deal with your own issues of loyalty, these lingering feelings for the MM, and your lack of respect for your H. There is no such thing as a respectful cheater. You and your H have tried to salvage your marriage, but are only existing with each other. In my situation, I made the decision (bitterly opposed by my then wife)to end the marriage for both our sakes and never regretted that decision. I hope that you don't consider this "bashing", because , nothing could be further from the truth. I like and respect you but IMO, your marriage as it is now , is unworkable.

[boldjack]

But hell, what do I know, I'm just a farmer.

[dobler33]

oh my, boldjack. again with this??? i did not think to shock my H into treatment. i am most gratefully not his analyst. of course my affair was selfish. were you thinking i had convinced myself that i'd had an affair in order to improve my marriage? as deluded as i was, i was never that deluded. i left it entirely to him to decide, when he had all the information, whether or not he wanted to try to reconcile. and although i committed to and continue to do whatever is needed to regain his trust, taking his lead on it entirely, i was honest with him about what i would need in order for ME to want to stay and work it out. one of those things was that he seek treatment for his long-standing depression (not, may i point out, by anyone i know or recommend. ai dios. do you think i'm a moron?). it's another one of those pesky both/ands that seem to rattle you so. i take full and complete responsibility for the unforgiveable actions of the affair. whatever he needs from me in order to help him recover from that he has. while at the SAME TIME it is also true that the problems that existed before the affair, which my H recognizes and agrees with, contributed to the dynamics of the situation in which the affair began. therefore, while i work dilligently to regain his trust and provide an accepting and supportive environment in which he can recover, he has taken up the challenge of dealing with his own depression and withdrawal and shutting me out, which he recognizes and agrees had been happening LONG before the affair was even a concept. my actions were indeed disrespectful and i consider myself lucky that he was willing to work through this with me, in light of the fact that i broke my vows to him. but he himself realizes that he broke his vows to me long before that, by not being a friend or partner, by not taking responsibility for his depression in order to keep it from destroying our marriage, by not being reliable or present for much of the time no matter how many times and in how many ways i begged for it. i told him straight out: i was lonely, i was weak, i ask your forgiveness. but i was lonely for YOU, not the OM, have been lonely for you for years, so lonely in fact that i had no idea how lonely i was until someone offered me a solace from loneliness. should i have dealt with it in another way? yes. am i suggesting that my actions were blameless or unreprehensible? no. is there a more complicated reality in which both of us have effed it up and need to work to reconcile ourselves with the promises we both have broken? oh my yes. i still don't know if it's going to work out. we've both been very honest about that. he may not be able to open up and be present in the way i need him to. i might not be able to regain his trust completely. this might be too broken to fix, no matter how much we love each other. these are strong possibilities. but we're working, and both seeking support in our way. it remains to be seen whether or not it is workable. i've seen it go both ways: the affair is symptomatic of larger insurmountable issues and is the breaking point from which the marriage cannot recover. or, the affair is symptomatic of larger issues which are brought inescapably to the fore and the couple is able to deal with them with an honesty and pragmatism that was not possible before the affair. right now we're patiently sifting through the rubble trying to figure out which it's going to be for us. as for my residual feelings for the OM, i consider them my responsibility to deal with. that's a pain i suffer on my own, and is by no means his burden to bear. whatever energy is not being devoted to our reparation is taken up by the active and focused project of ridding myself of those feelings. i have no desire for torch-carrying.

 

did i address all your points?

[boldjack]

Pretty much, yes you did. My problem is that I don't subscribe to the myth that marriages can emerge from affairs, "stronger", or "better", than before. It has been my experience that such ideas are for relieving guilt, and salvaging pride. You and your H can work on the issues that currently divide you, with courage and the best of intentions and good will, but you can't "work", yourself back in love. You can't unmake the past. I have always thought that after an affair there should be an automatic divorce. Then if the love and desire is still present, you can marry again and start anew. I very much respect what you and your husband are trying to do, I hope that you can somehow regain , what you BOTH, let slip away. In a like situation I have tried to do exactly what you are trying to do. I was fully transparent, absolutely available, and compliant with all of my ex wife's demands or issues, we stayed married, made love, laughed and cried, but it was not the same, and after a while, I knew that it would never be. I took a warm, beautiful girl, and by my actions, changed her into a bitter , cynical woman. How's that for guilt.

[jwi71]

I divorced my WW. Well..in process...stupid slow courts.

 

Why? She never bothered to change. OH she did all the easy things...no cell phone, quit her job (it was her boss), all emails and so on.

 

But. She never worked on herself. She didnt do any of the heavy lifting. I eventually got tired of it and filed.

 

But good luck to you...its unimaginably hard for the BS...

[Owl]

My marriage is now officially five years past d-day...and we're doing great.

 

But...it took a LOT of work in that first year after d-day for us to recover...on both sides. That first year was rough...it had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows all through it...sometimes in the same day.

 

We did MC for about a year after d-day with a counselor who was outstanding, and I think that was a major factor in our ability to recover.

 

A marriage CAN recover and be great after an affair...but I'd suggest that there are a number of factors in there. A great foundation...great relationship at some point prior to the affair to "remind" the both of you how good things can be. A truly remorseful WS who actually does want to recover the marriage (although that's impossible to know until after NC is established and withdrawl from the affair is dealt with). The willingness on BOTH sides to do what it takes to recover (the WS has to become an "open book", to allow the BS to rebuild their trust in them). The BS has to truly learn to forgive the WS...and this can take a lot of time and effort. The anger and pain can last a long time.

 

It can be done...my marriage is proof.

 

But it isn't easy.

[boldjack]

Owl, You seem to be well-adjusted to your marriage and many of the issues have been dealt with, but is it the same or better? Do these same issues ever come back to haunt you or your wife? Do you trust her completely? I did everything you said and so did my ex wife. She was after a while, even able to trust me again. But in her heart of hearts, she never trusted other women around me. Our marriage was very good before the A , and we tried to build on that love, but the affair changed us as people, we were not the same two (in love) kids, post affair, that we were, before. If you are satisfied and "happy", now, then why are you on the affair forums here at LS? I suggest that you have learned to accept that these issues will never go away and that you are dealing with them constantly, although successfully. But your marriage will never be totally free from these issues as it may have been in the beginning. Mine wasn't.

[Dexter Morgan]

for folks who cheated on a spouse and remained with them after d-day: how are things going? what has the process been like? does it feel like the marriage will recover, possibly even be stronger, or does it feel like something is broken that can't be fixed? i'm in the process with my husband and it's tough to tell some days how we're doing in the larger scheme of things, so i thought i'd get some perspective from other peoples' experience.

 

Not a WS, never was, but what you might want to think about is, no matter how good things may seem, if you think your BS isn't thinking about what you did and reeling inside, think again.

 

You may just have to worry whether or not your BS would be trying to justify in his own mind that he might be entitled to go out and get "his", since you got "yours".

 

Now of course if a BS is truly wanting to recover the marriage, lord knows why, then he/she won't do this. But still, he WILL think about what you did from time to time and may even look at you with resentment here and there while trying to "recover".....whatever that really entails.

[Dexter Morgan]

thanks, texas. that's definitely what we're working on. my H has agreed to go into therapy - i'm already in and we tried couples a while back but nothing is going to change until he's ready to deal with his depression and withdrawal

 

 

so even though YOU cheated, this is on him? NOTHING is going to change unless he gets over it?

 

 

and i'm hoping that makes a difference. when i told him about the affair i said that while i take total responsibility for my actions and ask for no leniency, if he wanted to stay together he was going to have to work on his total emotional unavailability or it was never going to work for us. he's been working hard but i'm not sure if it's going to be enough.

 

so basically he is trying, working at it....all the while doing so in an attempt to appease someone who cheated that may end up deciding its not enough?? Sounds like he has been emotionally extorted.

 

 

here's the big vulnerable exposure - i can't tell if the dissatisfaction i feel is just the lingering residue of loving and missing someone else and will therefore fade in time or if it's the true echo of the problems we had before any of this happened, and if so, if there's a way to get past that. i just can't tell yet. my heart got broke SOOOOO bad

 

how do you think your H feels? and the thing is, after what you did to him, he is trying...is he not? something tells me he is going to get burned with his efforts and they will all be for nothing

 

 

and yes, i'm totally expecting to be gunned down for this inconvenient ambiguity of emotions. hit me, y'all grumpy people. hit me witcha best shot.

 

nice to see you have such a casual and cavalier attitude about a situation in which you betrayed your husband and towards people that were in the same boat as he.

[dobler33]

thanks, dexter, i was waiting for that.

 

i can't convince you of the validity of both my husband's and my positions. of course he continues to struggle with it. it is also for this reason that he agreed to go into therapy - because he wanted to have someone to talk to about the affair-related feelings he doesn't yet feel comfortable sharing with me. i believe that you misread or possibly failed to read the context of my original statement about him going to therapy - i did not say that nothing would change until he "got over" the affair, i pointed out that although we had been in couples therapy pre-affair, nothing changed because he was still unwilling to address his depression and emotional withdrawal. this was the opinion of the couples therapist as well, and my H now agrees with it. to reiterate, that was PRE-AFFAIR and has nothing to do with "getting over" the affair. and yes, i too am in therapy. i ecourage you to reread my more recent post, in which i once again point out the both/and of the situation - that is to say, in which i fully take responsibility for my actions, as i have done with my H, while at the same time taking into consideration all the difficulties that existed before the affair. if that post is not clear to you or if you disagree, i can't convince you. all i can tell you is that so far my H continues to want to stay and work things out - which includes both me working to regain his trust in me and him working to regain my trust in him. it is not my place to judge him or question his desire to stay; nor, may i point out, is it yours.

[Owl]

Owl, You seem to be well-adjusted to your marriage and many of the issues have been dealt with, but is it the same or better? Do these same issues ever come back to haunt you or your wife? Do you trust her completely? I did everything you said and so did my ex wife. She was after a while, even able to trust me again. But in her heart of hearts, she never trusted other women around me. Our marriage was very good before the A , and we tried to build on that love, but the affair changed us as people, we were not the same two (in love) kids, post affair, that we were, before. If you are satisfied and "happy", now, then why are you on the affair forums here at LS? I suggest that you have learned to accept that these issues will never go away and that you are dealing with them constantly, although successfully. But your marriage will never be totally free from these issues as it may have been in the beginning. Mine wasn't.

 

Bold, you raise some excellent and valid points.

 

Here's my view and thoughts...but remember...I only know the "recovered marriage" side of this, and am speculating on what life would have been had we not recovered.

 

I'd agree...my marriage is not the same as it was pre-affair. My trust in her is not the same, nor will it ever be the same again. I would never "blindly trust" again.

 

But...that change has nothing to do with if I were with her, or with someone else. It's a change IN ME. In how I now view ALL relationships...not just my current one.

 

I don't "blindly trust" my wife anymore. I have occasional flashes of worry. But...I honestly believe that I would have those SAME flashes of worry if I were with someone else. My "blind trust" is shattered...regardless of WHO I'm trusting.

 

If it were my wife, or if I'd ended my marriage and been with someone else, I now KNOW that there is nothing special that would prevent this from happening again. I now know the warning signs, the "red flags"...and I'd be watching for those with ANY woman I were with...not just my wife.

 

I'd have the same flashes of doubt, if it were her, or someone else.

 

So...knowing that...and knowing how much the BOTH of us had learned through all of this...and knowing how much she regrets what happened...why would I end my marriage and try it with someone else....someone else who would have to go through all the same steps to begin building trust with me...and with whom in the end I'd STILL have those "flashes of doubt", and would still never blindly trust?

 

I love my wife. The doubt would be the same here or anyone else...but with her, I KNOW that she's learned a hard lesson that someone else may not have. And I KNOW how much she loves me...because I know how hard she fought to save our marriage when it all hit the fan.

 

In the end, you're right...my marriage will never be "totally free". But it's not my marriage that's changed...it's me. NO relationship I could get into after this would be "totally free".

 

I'm not sacrificing anything by staying in my marriage...on the contrary, I'm still in the best possible place I could be.

 

Last thought...I don't hang out on these forums because of doubt or fear...I'm not here "seeking" anything anymore. Bluntly, I hang out on these forums out of sheer self-satsifaction...because I get a lot of joy in seeing someone take my advice and something good come from that. I went through some years of doubt and "seeking", even well after my marriage was on it's way to recovering. But it's been a darn good while since I've been looking for any new answers or even questions on these forums.

[Reggie]

dobler, as a therapist, weren't you aware that having an affair, particularly with his friend(must have been terribly humiliating for him) might push an already depressed person over the edge.

See, this is what I don't get. I will accept your story that he was not the best husband and was not trying to address his depression. But, the choice to have an affair instead of divorcing or seperating seems to indicate a lack of insight into the gravity of the harm you were going to cause him.

 

Sure, divorce may have been painful or it may have awakened him to the need to work on himself. But, the cheating, with its attendant trauma seems to be the most counter-productive thing you could have done. This is especially true in that you chose to do it with his friend.

 

This makes me wonder if, on some level, perhaps concious or maybe not, your resentment over his failings , caused you to want to hurt him, in addition to seeking gratification for yourself.

 

I say this because your choice of an affair partner, coupled with your training, must have made you know that this was going to be a body blow to an already vulnerable person.

 

I mean if you guys were planning to be together, but the OM backed out, what did you envision this futere realtionship that did not materialize would be like for your H and your friend?

 

Also, I wonder how your H feels knowing that but for the OM's resistance, you would have left your H. He must have tremendous doubt re your motivation for staying with him. I would think the resentment this would bring him maight be the basis for resiting getting help in the future.

 

The extortion characterization by Dex is accurate and , if he is like most people, it must be very difficult for your H to get help knowing that.

[boldjack]

You know, Dobie, this is almost religious. Most ws's, who go back with their bs, WANT SO MUCH for the marriage to recover, that it is almost an article of faith, that somehow it can.

[Dexter Morgan]

thanks, dexter, i was waiting for that.

 

i can't convince you of the validity of both my husband's and my positions. of course he continues to struggle with it. it is also for this reason that he agreed to go into therapy - because he wanted to have someone to talk to about the affair-related feelings he doesn't yet feel comfortable sharing with me. i believe that you misread or possibly failed to read the context of my original statement about him going to therapy - i did not say that nothing would change until he "got over" the affair, i pointed out that although we had been in couples therapy pre-affair, nothing changed because he was still unwilling to address his depression and emotional withdrawal. this was the opinion of the couples therapist as well, and my H now agrees with it. to reiterate, that was PRE-AFFAIR and has nothing to do with "getting over" the affair.

 

Ok, so that was "PRE-AFFAIR". he agreed with it PRE-AFFAIR, as you said, so i assume he started working on those issues.....PRE-AFFAIR.

 

So if he was working on his issues of depression, well gee......I'd think because of your affair, he really has his work cut out for him now.

 

So if you were in counseling PRE-AFFAIR, said counseling is pretty much a waste of time seeing as how you had your affair after....even though he agreed and started working on his problems.

 

So here he was working on his problems.......while you went in the opposite direction of what counseling was suppose to do for you and engaged in an affair.

 

 

and yes, i too am in therapy. i ecourage you to reread my more recent post, in which i once again point out the both/and of the situation - that is to say, in which i fully take responsibility for my actions, as i have done with my H, while at the same time taking into consideration all the difficulties that existed before the affair. if that post is not clear to you or if you disagree, i can't convince you. all i can tell you is that so far my H continues to want to stay and work things out - which includes both me working to regain his trust in me and him working to regain my trust in him. it is not my place to judge him or question his desire to stay; nor, may i point out, is it yours.

 

1st, it is my place to say whatever I like. The whole decrying of "judging" is bunk. "judging" happens all the time...everyone does it.....you, me, and those that say they don't are lying to themselves.

 

Ok, that out of the way, you said in your most recent post that you are having patience with him and doing everything you can to win his trust.

 

So you are having patience with him?....while you are feeling broken hearted over the xOM? This tells me that you wouldn't most likely be working on the marriage if the OM hadn't broken it off.

 

And just how is it you are trying to regain your H's trust if you are basically in broken hearted mode over the OM?

[2sure]

I know for sure that I am a better person since my H's infidelity. I know for sure that he is better person since then as well. The crisis made us both look very very deeply at ourselves and what we wanted, and what we were willing to do to reach our goals. The crisis made us aware of our capabilities , good and bad, and our limits.

 

So, although we are both, perhaps, better people as individuals since then...it doesnt mean the marriage is better. I think mine is, but we weren't married long at all when it happened. So, there wasnt a lot of history there to begin with.

 

Also, crisis happens. Tragedies happen, life happens. Do they improve your life?? These things just make up the long list of experiences that ARE life. If there is infidelity, remorse, and forgiveness - if two people weather that together and survive...I dont know, it seems like that would form a bond, a strong one. Thats history.

[Spark1111]

You have to really, really want to. You have to really, really love each other to overcome this pain, because, hands down, it is the worst. As a BS, you spend months in a whorl of distrust and confusion. Cutting and running is easier, or prudent, depending on the depth of your feelings and commitment you are willing to make. Every day you scrutinize your WS to assess the sincerity of their remorse, and their commitment to reconciliation.

 

Sorry dobler, you sound a bit cavaliere to me. You may be "talking the talk," but not walking the walk. If your heart is not in your BS, and still residing with your xOM, all the counseling in the world won't make your BS feel more secure.

 

If you used your husband's depression to justify your affair, your BS intuitively knows that too.

 

Sorry, don't mean to malign your profession. Just know that words, not backed by heart and soul, are meaningless to a BS. What if he CAN't FIX his depression. Still want to be married to him?

 

Or would you feel justified to have another affair to meet your unmet needs?

[Reggie]

Yes, but it rarely works that way, 2Sure. The stats are pretty clear that the majority, a large majority , of relationships dissolve after infidelity.

I really do think many peole are influenced by false representations made on sites promoting their marriage saving services for a fee. Obviously, money is tha motivation to give out false stats.

There is no information on how many of those "recovered" marriages limp along for the duration.Also, factor in that thoe coming to the site are the ones where the spouses agree they want to reconcile. A large number of folks, after the initial shock wears off, simply get out without seeking help.

I read a survey done by a researcher that focused on BH's and their satisfaction in staying with a WW. The BH's that stayed were questioned between 1 and 2 years after the reconciiation process began. The author reported that she found almost no men who were happy with their decison to stay. She found that their initial motivation to reconcile was driven by fear and a sense of competition with the OM. Once these had abated, the guys were really unhappy with having "won".

One cannot predict the outcome in each individual case. But, apparently, the relationship is often forever denatured by this act.

Boldjack realized this and divorced. In the long run, he probably made his wife's future life much easier, as well as his own.

I had to do the same in my first marriage. Once her affair crumbled and she sobered up, there were a few overtures made by my XWW re reconciling. I was pretty mad at her and that was part of my unwillingness to reconcile. But, a large part was knowing myelf and how I would not ever get over it. I am a reasonably forgiving person and Iwanted to be in a relationship where this would not be in the back of my mind.This happened before the internet and all this information being available. So, I did beat myself up about what I perceived to be a major limitation in my personality, this inability to forgive and forget. It did not jibe with my image of myself as a non-vindictive type.

I have since learned that I am typical in this regard.

[2sure]

Oh yes, I know about the stats, the demographics, etc.

DAUNTING. But I think its important for people that really want to reconcile to know that is is possible to come to terms with it, and sincerely, I think we have.

 

Yes - the biggest thing I had to ask myself (as a BS)and be as sure of the answer as I could be was not so much - Can I forgiver him....

 

It was Can the Marriage be better from this?? The answer has got to be YES.

 

I really do, I think its completely possible. BUT I can be honest here -

I do see and acknowledge that a marriage that has suffered infidelity has a better chance of recovery when the BS was the male.

 

Those are stats. And boy, do they speak volumes.

[Reggie]

I agree. The stats seem to be better when the WS is a male. Lots of theories on this and , I suspect the reason is a combo of the extent of atachment by the WW to the OM , as well as the capacity of men to get past this.

[Owl]

Dobler, I'm curious...have you gone through the "withdrawl" at the end of your affair with OM?

 

Have you dealt with the full grieving process of the "death" of the affair and the loss of the OM?

[dobler33]

i'm totally frustrated cause i had responded to a bunch of points and then somehow lost the post. grr. now i have to remember what i said and paraphrase cause i'm tired of typing.

 

 

dexter: pre-affair was when we were in therapy, and no, it was not particularly effective, mostly because my H was not willing to get treatment for his depression. he was not working on those issues pre-affair. let me repeat: he was NOT working on those issues pre-affair. he will be the first person to state this. that was a dynamic of but not an excuse for the affair. he seems to want to work on them now because he has recognized post-affair - and partly because of the affair - that he hasn't been happy either and wants better for himself and our marriage. this is his report, not mine. and you're absolutely right - i wasn't thinking of him. i was thinking of my own loneliness and pain from years of rejection and how wonderful it felt to be wanted again. it was indeed selfish and caused a tremendous amount of pain all around. the fact that HE HAS CHOSEN to forgive me and try to work on our problems is a testament to his strength of character. i am not defending my actions to him or to anyone else. i'm not sure what is confusing about this.

 

reggie - as an analyst you will never hear me argue about the nasty unconcious motives for any actions. eros and thanatos live side by side and operate the same psyche and body. i have been very very angry w my H for failing to be a partner and a friend, as he vowed he would. the fact that i too broke vows does not escape me - neither makes up for the other. of course it does not conciously feel to me as though i chose his friend by design, as he pursued me and offered everything he knew i had been denied by my H, but again, i know that choice and no choice are often illusions. i absolutely accept that my angry and unflattering unconcious aggression must also have played a part. i have been doing my best to take stock of what i want and need, what was missing in my marriage and myself that made the pursuit by the OM so attractive.

 

boldjack - there is of course an article of faith present in this for both of us. we have to, for the moment at least, assume that all the work we're doing is worth it. that goes for both of us, though, not just me. i left this decision entirely up to him and he chose reconcilliation. we're both working as hard as we can and can only see where it goes.

 

2sure - thanks for the encouragement. i'm glad it's been a positive change for you, as painful and traumatizing as it must have been.

[Reggie]

On the flipside, dobler, what do you think his "friend's" motivation was. Was he angry at your H, as well?

And, what impression did his friend make on you with his willingness to both betray a friend and his wife.

I realize that all MM who cheat are betraying their wives. But, in this instance, we see a hardened heart that may be a few standsrd deviations form normal, in that his wife was your friend and your H was his own.

so, I wonder, was there not a part of you that questioned the character of this particular man( I imagine you are asking the same thing about yourself and his wife is asking this abut you, as well). It all seems so incestuous with the potential for great pain and a limited potential for happiness even if you wound up with this guy.

Has your husband's illness, depression, been exacerbated by the trauma? Has this action made recovery from the illness less likely or more difficult?

[Reggie]

Sorry to keep asking questions. But, in addition to the affair, were there denials and gaslighting such that it impacted your H's perceptions re his sanity? If he was depressed, this could have pushed him further down.

HAs his friend appolgized to him as you did your friend?