reconcilliation? how goes it?

[jwi71]

Let me ask you a question dobler if I may.

 

Why did you cheat?

[Reggie]

reggie - what you're saying, in terms of trends, can often be seen if you're looking for it. but one of the first things you learn in grad psych studies, when you're having to memorize the DSM (Diagnostic & Statistical Manual - the bible of the field), is that everyone you know, including yourself, is disordered in some way. if you ever get the opportunity to watch a 1st year grad psych class undergoing psychopathology class, i highly recommend it. everyone comes in the second week freaking out because their mom/boyfriend/coworker/kid is borderline or obsessive or ADHD or schizoid...... we're ALL crazy, baby. pick up a DSM one day and i challenge you NOT to find at least 5 relevant diagnoses for yourself. they're helpful for paperwork and prognostication, but the truth is that everyone does borderline/obsessive/ADHD/schizoid stuff.

 

that being said, it sounds like this particular diagnosis has been helpful for you in understanding and contextualizing what was clearly an abusive relationship.

 

i want to just slip in there that abuse and mental illness are not interchangeable. you can be a survivor of abuse and not be diagnosable, and you can be certifiable without ever having experienced abuse. of course they are often covalent, but it's not a fait accompli.

 

sorry, dobler's psych fact of the day.

 

I agree. I try to look at it as an abusive relationship that I needed to get out of.

[2sure]

Dobler -

 

After I decided that I wanted to be able to forgive my H, he as the WS actually said to me after the 100th time I wanted to "rehash"....

"NO. Enough. I have emotionally battered you. If you emotionally battering me was only hurting me, I would take it forever. But its hurting me and YOU. Its harming our progress, our marriage."

 

And he was right. It had to stop. At the time, I thought he was being callous or a coward. But I see that as one of the biggest hurdles of our recovery , and my own.

 

Before making the decision together to reconcile you have to have the facts. You have to know what your dealing with, what you are deciding to forgive or what you are deciding your goal is. In my opinion, the details like when , where and how many times are not required facts. They are just stones.

 

My point is, when you decide to reconcile that means rehashing is done.

[HeidiB125]

I think that all the psychological insights are great and are totally necessary in defining why an affair happens on a deeper level....BUT according to my husband he said that it just felt soooooo good and he chose not to resist it. He acknowledges he was a dick for doing it.....

[Dexter Morgan]

I think that all the psychological insights are great and are totally necessary in defining why an affair happens on a deeper level....BUT according to my husband he said that it just felt soooooo good and he chose not to resist it. He acknowledges he was a dick for doing it.....

 

WOW!!, is he in the hospital for saying that? Thats like a major slap in your face.

 

You should have said, "hmmm...interesting. I think I'll go out and get something that feels sooooooo good too"

[HeidiB125]

Maybe it's more of a male thing, not making excuses, but we weren't having sex, nor had we had any in a long time. He said that when she offered him the invitation to her house to bring her work computer and she opened her doors (and her legs) he didn't think too far down the road and went with the moment. I knew he wanted her that way but it was her invitation that "made it happen". Don't get me wrong, he's not off the hook for his part in it and it probably would have happened anyway but their first time was in her finished basement when her husband was at work and her kids were in daycare. After that it was a few times in the woods at lunch. When I take a step back I still can't believe that this all happened to ME. I'm still here but not sure for how long.

[Spark1111]

That's good, dobler, as those disorders are fairly intractable. I'd never heard of thenm before my therapist and my lawyer, a former counselor, suggested I research them. This was after i described the incredible spendin, the insistence our kids sleep in our bed(for 7 years), getting doused repeatedly with cold water when I showered and lots of emasculating verbal abuse.

I think the remorseless cheaters have a fairly high incidence of PDs as do the serial cheaters. You seem to have remorse and insight and empathy.

It's tough to overcome childhood abuse. I've noticed that while this type of abuse often lays in the history of the disordered, it seems to be present in a fairly high percentage of the folks that get involved with the disordered, as well.

It is interesting that abuse often leads to either a disorder or the type of unhealthy issues that lead one to tolerate the disordered way too long(like co-dependency). I've read that on some level, either subconciously or conciously, the disordered target overly tolerant types. And, the overly tolerant types are drawn to the disordered.

 

Dobler, truer words have never been spoken. While MC has enabled us to improve communication in the marriage, it is in IC that the serious progress is being made. I, too, begged a depressive husband to seek counseling for many, many years thinking, maybe naively, "Well, if he was happier within himself, he'd be happier with me, us."

 

Not only is he learning how is actions distanced me and led to the decline of our marriage, I am learning why i tolerated it for so long. All positive and life-transforming discoveries.

 

Have you thought of your plan b? If he sinks into a major depression, will you once again stay and try to work it out?

 

I, for one, could not. It has already robbed my life of too much joy. As long as effort is being made, I have taken a "wait and see" attitude. But I will not go back to where we were.

[Dexter Morgan]

Maybe it's more of a male thing, not making excuses, but we weren't having sex, nor had we had any in a long time. He said that when she offered him the invitation to her house to bring her work computer and she opened her doors (and her legs) he didn't think too far down the road and went with the moment. I knew he wanted her that way but it was her invitation that "made it happen". Don't get me wrong, he's not off the hook for his part in it and it probably would have happened anyway but their first time was in her finished basement when her husband was at work and her kids were in daycare. After that it was a few times in the woods at lunch. When I take a step back I still can't believe that this all happened to ME. I'm still here but not sure for how long.

 

does her husband know? if not.........make sure he does know.

[HeidiB125]

He knows now but it took me a year to finally tell him. My husband kept telling me what if he hurts himself, hurts her, etc. Or why can't I just leave them alone to work on their marriage? Finally I wised up and told him but I left out all the specifics. I doubt she would ever tell him that she bought another man into his house and had sex with them. I had hoped that when he found out he would force her to quit her job...I guess that may have happened if they were going to work on THEIR relationship. It's been six months and she's still there. When this first happened I told my husband that I didn't think he was the kind of man that could rise up and help in my recovery. As much as he said he could....he's not. I always call our times of discussions my monologes. I talk to him while he looks at me and blinks. Then when I'm finished, and angry, he goes about his business. What the hell is wrong with me that I"m even still here?????....I thnk that I still have hope that he will change. I don't want to hijack the thread ...but thanks for listening.

[Dexter Morgan]

He knows now but it took me a year to finally tell him. My husband kept telling me what if he hurts himself, hurts her, etc.

 

too bad...thats not your problem.

[datura_noir]

My husband and I have been happily reconciled for two+ years. In fact, we were living together for 8.5 years when he had his affair. A month after d-day, we agreed to get married.And, we married exactly one year to the day of his goodbye to her.

 

We have our moments like any other couple, but we can't imagine not growing old together....we just lost each other in the midst of a hectic life.We just recently had OW's brother and his wife over, and I hadn't seen or talked to them in two years. It went well.

 

As far as trust? Well, it will never be blindly given again, but I don't think it should have been blindly given in the first place-it probably caused me to take him for granted, and vice versa.

 

So, it can be done, but the BS has to let go of ALOT of pain & anger, and that is hard for someone sensitive who likes to nurse their wounds (like me!!)

[Reggie]

I think it is sad , though, DN, that there can be no complete trust. Is it possible to just relax and enjoy the relationship without trust like that? Do you fear getting hurt again?

 

I really feel that blind trust is really a nice thing to have in a partner. Guess we all make compromises, but this is an awfully big one.

[Snowflower]

 

As far as trust? Well, it will never be blindly given again, but I don't think it should have been blindly given in the first place-it probably caused me to take him for granted, and vice versa.

 

 

Interestingly enough, I'm not sure I ever "blindly trusted" my WH ever-even long before his affair. The trust issues had more to do with me than him at that point. That being said, I did trust him and had no reason to believe, until right before d-day that he had given me a reason not to trust him.

 

As weird as it sounds, I did maintain some deep level of trust in my H even after admitted his A. I won't go into it here-it is long, but there was still something in me that trusted him.

 

After we began the work of recovering our marriage, I asked how he could have so sorely abused and thrown away my trust. He said he would do whatever it takes, as long as it takes to earn my trust. I responded to him, "well, maybe you shouldn't have done something to lose my trust in the first place."

 

My H responded with something I will always remember. I strongly believe his bad decision changed him fundamentally-for the better-afterward. My H told me, "earning your trust again is like having to work for your first car vs. being just handed a car when you get your driver's license. Which one do you think you take better care of? The car that you were "given" freely or the one you worked to get? You will take care of the vehicle you worked for much more carefully. This is how I will treat your trust in me once I've earned it back."

 

It is an on-going process but things are going very well.

[boldjack]

Snowflower, you need to watch your husband like a hawk. He is way too glib. He said exactly the right thing.

[datura_noir]

Reggie, I may or may not get hurt again-either by infidelity or some other issue. Who knows?? I can't sit around and wait for him to F&*% up, I have to live and give my best to the marriage. We all do the best we can, and both of us are content. It's not like it was in the beginning, but we have our wild times. I don't feel like I had to compromise so much by letting go of the blind trust; In my life I have given that trust too freely to too many people, not just my husband, and been burned. So now I look out for my heart.

 

It is interesting, though-I find that he now pays close attention to me whenever another man talks to me, or looks at me. Although I know that I would never give him reason to be worried-I don't do drama well.

[herenow]

i would love insight from BS's, herenow, as long as we can all agree that it isn't necessary to continue to let me know that i did a bad thing by having an affair. i am genuinely interested in hearing what was helpful in recovering from the affair.

 

Well first off there is no quick fix.

 

For my own self worth I needed time away from my H after D-day. We separated and we were both able to take the time to work on our individual issues before we even touched the possibility of trying to make our marriage work. I needed to know that if I gave us a second chance it was not out of fear or insecurity. Once I knew that my kids would be fine and I would be able to be happy with or without being married to my H, I was able to think about reconciling. I really had nothing to lose by trying.

 

My H has an addictive personality. He has never been a drinker or taken drugs, but in the past he has shown that behavior in work, hobbies, sports, etc. Eventually his addiction turned to an affair. There is no doubt in my mind that had he not gotten help and started working a 12 step program, he would have continued on his self destructive path. Thankfully we had a great MC and she worked with both of us to figure out the whys and the solutions.

 

My H has made a significant life change and I'm glad we worked together to build a stronger, healthier marriage. I have made some personal changes as well that have made me a better person and a better wife. It does take two and the ability to look deeply at ones self.

 

I would never want the marriage I had before affair or no affair. We both needed to take a step back and realize that a marriage is always evolving. Just like any relationship, it should never be taken for granted.

[dobler33]

thanks for all the great insights, y'all. it sounds like peoples' experiences have been widely varied. thanks for sharing them all with me.

 

i wanted to report an awesome conversation w the H last night before falling asleep, one that gives me so much hope that we will come out of this stronger than before. i expressed gratitude and admiration for his forgiveness of me, and he said that part of him hadn't had a choice, because he loves me and didn't want to lose me. when i said that i was very grateful to that part of him he chuckled and said, "you should be grateful to the part that DID have a choice." to which i of course agreed. i checked in w him about his anger and he said it was still there, that it was like a splinter or a piece of glass in your foot - it works its way in and you sometimes forget about it until something moves it and it hurts all over again, that sometimes it works itself out of your body and sometimes it stays there forever. i once again told him that he had ever right to express that anger and that he wouldn't be pushing me away with it, that i expect him to be angry and distrustful and am prepared to hear about it whenever he's ready. he opened up and told me that he has a fear about this upcoming tour, a fear that he never had before going away. i said i'd been thinking about that, the fact that he would have a lot of anxiety about leaving me for 2 months, and said that i wanted to do whatever he needed me to do to help ease that anxiety for him. and he nodded, and said that he wanted to do whatever he needed to do too; i asked what he meant and he said "i want to do whatever i need to do to get better and make our marriage better, so that you don't want to be with anyone else. i don't want to lose you." of course at this point i'm bawling. i told him that i didn't want him to lose me either, that that's what it felt like, like i'd been lost, like he'd lost me out there in all the uncertainty of the world. we use the phrase "stray from the marriage", and that's what it felt like; lost and wandering far from home. i said that i was very glad that i got to come home.

 

thought i'd share that little conversation. it feels like a big movement in our recovery and i'm not sure i would have had the insights to have it without the insights of the folks who've been supportive on LS. thanks, y'all.

[datura_noir]

Well first off there is no quick fix.

 

For my own self worth I needed time away from my H after D-day. We separated and we were both able to take the time to work on our individual issues before we even touched the possibility of trying to make our marriage work. I needed to know that if I gave us a second chance it was not out of fear or insecurity. Once I knew that my kids would be fine and I would be able to be happy with or without being married to my H, I was able to think about reconciling. I really had nothing to lose by trying.

 

My H has an addictive personality. He has never been a drinker or taken drugs, but in the past he has shown that behavior in work, hobbies, sports, etc. Eventually his addiction turned to an affair. There is no doubt in my mind that had he not gotten help and started working a 12 step program, he would have continued on his self destructive path. Thankfully we had a great MC and she worked with both of us to figure out the whys and the solutions.

 

My H has made a significant life change and I'm glad we worked together to build a stronger, healthier marriage. I have made some personal changes as well that have made me a better person and a better wife. It does take two and the ability to look deeply at ones self.

I would never want the marriage I had before affair or no affair. We both needed to take a step back and realize that a marriage is always evolving. Just like any relationship, it should never be taken for granted.

 

********************************

 

 

I took the same approach after d-day also-I moved 300 miles away and basically we started over on a new page. That time away gave us both the clarity we needed to renew ourselves, and for him to know that even if we did split, I would be fine. He had so much guilt over the affair, that he wasn't sure I wanted us anymore. I wasn't sure I wanted us, either. But we found out that we truly loved and desired each other, and that he was willing to do whatever it took to restore my faith in him.

[dobler33]

Let me ask you a question dobler if I may.

 

Why did you cheat?

 

 

you know, jwi, i'm a little reluctant to answer that question, as it has been my experience on this board that saying where your head was at or what your emotional state was at the time of your infidelity usually invites people to come at you with fists raised, invalidating everything you felt and telling you there was no excuse for your behavior. i'd be happy to tell you what i was feeling and what pulled me to the OM, where my marriage was at, how i rationalized it to myself..... are you genuinely interested or do you have an axe to grind? forgive my paranoia, i'm just a bit gun-shy at this point.

[sadintexas]

You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last. How is your H doing with the trust issue, is this the reason behind his depression and in what way is he withdrawn? What are you doing ,in a personal way, to ease his anxiety? and what of your own issue of this lingering affection for the OM, is your H aware of this? ................Texas, In what way did your A help fix what was wrong in your marriage? You blame your ex and his NPD, but who's to blame for the A? Both of you ruined the marriage, not just him. Exceptance of responsibility is crucial to your own well being, even if you did get a divorce.

 

You misread what I wrote. I was the BS in my marriage. My then H cheated on me. I was an OW post divorce (which is what brought me to this site) but one doesn't have anything to do with the other. Only told her that so she knew a little about my background.

 

His A didn't break or fix anything. We were already broken. The one thing I guess it did do was propelled me to seek counseling to get through my grief which helped me grow stronger. It helped me get to a position where I could leave an abusive marriage.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post about what happened.

[sadintexas]

I agree that continuing to address the damge a cheater inflicts goes on in some threads after the cheater has owned it.

But, I think what triggers folks may be two things. First, there really is no way a cheater understands the real extent of the damage, IMO. But, continually bringing it up will not accomplish that, so I try to avoid it.

The second thing I think triggers it is mentioning the BSs pre-affair issues that many that cheat feel set the stage for their actions. I really think they are irrelevant and there is no casual connection between the decision to cheat and the pre-A issues. To BSs hearing this, it may sound like justification. Thus the desire to emphasize the extent of the trauma so as to demonstrate the inadequacy of the justification.

I say this because there are so many alternatives to cheating. To me , it is like saying "my wife has bad breath. Therefore , I bought a corvette and bankrupted us."

Perhaps you can explain your rationale , dobler, for presenting allegations that your H was depressed and inattentive. I imagine it may seem relevant to establish your state of mind. BUt, that makes no sens to me in that if you wanted those problems addressed, you chose such an ineffective , actualy counter-productive way of trying to get him help.

 

I can totally understand her point of view. She is not saying that she was justified in having the affair because of her h's depression, but it is what drove her to that point in her mind. Yes, there are other choices, but problems pre-A can be and often are the catalyst for the bad decision to have an A instead of addressing the problems in a more constructive way.

 

I totally get that exploration of the marital issues pre-A are at the forefront of her mind, because this is what was broken to her to begin with. If those issues can't be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties, working through the effects of the A together, as in to save the marriage, is rather moot in my opinion. That was my experience as well, and that was from my viewpoint as a BS.

[Snowflower]

Snowflower, you need to watch your husband like a hawk. He is way too glib. He said exactly the right thing.

 

 

Thanks for the warning, but I was just trying to share my perspective.

 

But there is more to the story than I have posted here. Things are good between us and better than what we ever had before.

 

If he does this again, it's done and he knows this. Yes, I could have dumped him since he did this to me. But I believe he has learned his lesson. I don't like the advice of "just go find someone else." Who is to say that this new person wouldn't do the same thing? I certainly have read where that very thing happens on these boards.

[boldjack]

Tex, No prob. Your post makes more sense now , anyway. Sf, I don't disagree, I'm just saying that he seems to have all the right answers to all the wrong questions. Keep your eyes open.

[Snowflower]

Sf, I don't disagree, I'm just saying that he seems to have all the right answers to all the wrong questions. Keep your eyes open.

 

Again, thanks for the heads-up. I'm wondering what a better answer from my WH would have been in regards to trust?

 

His actions are continuing to prove trustworthy and that is what I am really watching. Talk is cheap.

[2sure]

I really really enjoy reading posts from other BS like myself, whose marriages have survived since D-Day. In my opinion for a marriage to truly survive infidelity it has to improve from it.

 

Sometimes, I find myself defending my husband, my marriage, myself here on LS, just because I stayed. While I can understand the views of others...nothing has been more valuable to me than the advice and stories of those who have stayed. Regardless of the ultimate results.

 

I dont like insinuations that BS who stay are less of a person. The opposite is often true.