Snooping 101

[DNU1]

I am a strong believer in " for better or worse". But there comes a time when all is lost and you have to end it for your sanity, its all her fault. I gave a 100% trying to save my marriage in the beginning, she gave 20%, the other 80% was spent with her telling lies to continue the affair. Im still not Divorced yet because she is constantly stalling. Yet her boyfriend still staying with her. Problem now is the kids,doing whats fair for them. As far as giving God a chance????? I am starting to believe there is no God. How can things go this far otherwise.

 

NM: I too am a believer in "for better or worse..." But there came a time when I just could not live with the lies, the constant wondering where she was, what she was doing...and there is no way, no way in the world that I was going to set myself up for another DDay!

 

Yes, we gave it 100% trying to save our marriages...probably more like 110%! And my STBx now admits that while she thought she was giving it her all for the past six months, she now realizes she was not. She still claims DrX affiar was over and still is over. But what she doesn't understand at this point in time, that even if the physical part is in the past, there is still something there when she sees the OM every day at work.

 

Case in point, even yesterday when I said "I'd like to ask you a few questions after getting home from my IC session..." she admitted to me that there was this glimmer of hope, ever so small, that I might give her just one more chance(??!!!) It's been over a month since DDay papers...and she's tried to secude me and asked at least 4 times for "just one more chance."

 

If she holds on to hope that long, how can she look me in the face and say she stopped it with DrX/OM long ago. She's a fence sitter and is probably still holding out hope that she can hook up with DrX when our divorce is all over...

 

NM: there is a God. He's watching you and me. And somewhere down the road, somewhere out there is hope. I'm positive that when this is all over, when I've had a chance to heal myself and take care of my kids, that I am going to find a woman who will be honest with me, meet my needs and allow me to meet hers. It will be 50/50 instead of the dysfunctional 90/10 that my STBx and I had.

 

The Big Man only throws stuff at us that we can handle. It makes us stronger.

 

I told my STBx again last night...I'm proud of how I handled my self through this mess. I'm proud of the person I've become. I'm stronger, confident, rock-solid, know what I want, have good boundaries, and above all (this one just thrown in for her) know how to honor my wedding vows.

 

Be strong NM! It's going to get better...

[Owl]

How would you know if the cheater is being transparent or not?

 

Exactly.

 

What CLV is ignoring is the sheer addictive nature of affairs. He doesn't get that most WS's, when they get involved in an affair will immediately lie in order to maintain the affair.

 

So you ask your spouse for transparency...but as Jasminetea asked, how do you KNOW that they're telling you the truth when they tell you that they're being transparent?

 

Typicaly, they'll just take the cheating more underground for a while.

 

CLV says that their ACTIONS would be dealbreakers...ok...what specific ACTIONS are you considering as dealbreakers?

 

Remember that most BS's complain about a widening emotional distance, distraction from the day to day, more likely to criticize or complain about the BS and their actions, etc... Are these your "dealbreakers" CLV? Are these sufficient for you to end the marriage over?

 

For most of us, they weren't. They were sufficient for us to want to find out the REASONS BEHIND THEM, but the actions themselves weren't enough to make us decide to end the marriage on the spot.

 

So, most of us DID try to ask out spouses what the problem was. DID insist on transparency. Many of us may have suspected a deepening relationship with someone specific...and asked our spouses point blank about it. And we were told "Oh, we're just good friends.". We asked for inclusion and transparency on that friendship...and what we got was far from sufficient...on the contrary, it made us suspect even more.

 

But again...what in here is your "deal breaker" that would have ended the marriage without KNOWING it was an affair? For many of us, there simply wasn't ONE THING that was a deal breaker...it was a number of small things that added up to the belief and feeling that something was very wrong. But without proof, it was just a feeling that something was wrong.

 

And you can't "fix" a feeling. You can't address the problem if you don't know what the problem is, only the symptoms of it.

 

You believe that the snooping does nothing to help "fix the problem".

 

But you're just flat wrong.

 

Once I knew what the problem was...my wife was no longer able to deny/deflect/avoid it. She was faced with the final decision much, much sooner than her or OM had anticipated. They weren't ready for that. It created a strain on their relationship that it wasn't able to handle...it crumpled that relationship.

 

And with the truth out there...my wife had no choice to either work on it or leave.

 

She chose to work on our marriage, rather than leave.

 

She finally got "out of the fog" and realized that she was going to lose EVERYTHING if she didn't take drastic steps to change what she was doing.

 

Had I not got that "proof"...by snooping mind you...her affair would have gone on, continued to grow, and probably would have ended our marriage.

 

But since then, we've learned a LOT about marriages, how to maintain them, what we SHOULD have been doing all along...and we've done a lot since then to make our marriage a much better place to be for both of us.

 

But CLV, you can't get to that point until the truth is out in the open. There is no way to get that truth out in the open without taking active measures to find the truth yourself, because the WS won't ever become transparent (and you won't know if they are or aren't), they won't ever tell you that truth as long as they're still addicted to the affair. The ONLY way to get to the bottom of it all is to get your own proof...to "snoop".

 

I'm curious, CLV...you are so dead set against snooping...what is it you're afraid your spouse would learn about you if they "snooped" on you? Would you rather divorce than to let your wife have your email/IM/cell phone accesses?

[clv0116]

How would you know if the cheater is being transparent or not?

 

So you're going to assume the person you promised to love and trust is a cheater and spy on them to find out? That's unacceptable behavior and I would terminate a relationship over that. "Nightmare' listed things like staying 4-5 nights a week away from home, hiding communications, etc.

 

I would promote the idea that it's best to simply put your cards on the table, tell him or her that you need to spend more time together and share the details of your daily lives with each other. You're essentially saying "I want to share my life with you" - if they refuse, well there is your answer.

 

In my case I'm always clear about sharing everything including explaining precisely what things I cannot share and why. I'ts not complex and it should be expected in a relationship.

[clv0116]

I'm curious, CLV...you are so dead set against snooping...what is it you're afraid your spouse would learn about you if they "snooped" on you?

 

Nothing. I share everything and I tell the truth when I'm asked questions. I've learned that keeping secrets, even 'innocent' ones, is poison to a relationship. For that reason I believe it's critical to find an SO who can accept you as you are and with whom you can confidently share everything without fear of being adversely judged for any of the little quirks we all have.

 

The only things I do not share are things I cannot, and for those things I clearly enumerate (if asked) what they are and why I cannot divulge them at the moment. Most are time sensitive and when they become public I try to remember to point them and and comment that "this is one of those things we discussed".

 

 

 

Would you rather divorce than to let your wife have your email/IM/cell phone accesses?

 

If she 'stole' it then I'd have trouble trusting her ever again. Ironically she would learn that I am trustworthy. It would be a major issue, and she would also have made herself a criminal. If she asked I would give what I could, but some things would fall into the category of things I cannot share at the moment.

[Owl]

You're glossing over the fact that the entire reason we're talking about snooping is because the WS is acting in an untrustworthy manner in the first place.

 

What if you were acting in a manner that was completely untrustworthy? What if you somehow clearly made her feel that you were lying and being dishonest? What if you WERE being dishonest and lying to her about something? Would it still be a dealbreaker for you if she snooped then?

[Nightmare]

So you're going to assume the person you promised to love and trust is a cheater and spy on them to find out? That's unacceptable behavior and I would terminate a relationship over that. "Nightmare' listed things like staying 4-5 nights a week away from home, hiding communications, etc.

 

I would promote the idea that it's best to simply put your cards on the table, tell him or her that you need to spend more time together and share the details of your daily lives with each other. You're essentially saying "I want to share my life with you" - if they refuse, well there is your answer.

 

In my case I'm always clear about sharing everything including explaining precisely what things I cannot share and why. I'ts not complex and it should be expected in a relationship.

First off the original signs were just her behaving different. Acting too nice, too much sex, constantly working out. Those things most people wouldnt have an issue, but I knew she wasnt being her true self. I didnt not begin snooping at first. I would ask her what was going on with her and she said "nothing". It progressed from there to the locked phone, going out more often ( but I never said 4 or 5 nights a week). She didnt have to, she worked with him. Amd he was married as well. So in reality there contact outside of work was minimal. When you know someone for so long. You start to know them better than themselves. So odd behavior that in reality is not that odd, becomes something your not use to seeing from that person, the only option is to snoop. I couldnt say to her.... I WANT A DIVORCE... Your being to nice to me, giving me too much sex, and getting yourself in greatshape. Are those dealbreakers for you, they werent to me at the time. Cheaters show more signs at the affair progresses. Its not like overnight everything changed. It gradually got worse, to a point where i had to start snooping.

[jasminetea]

So you're going to assume the person you promised to love and trust is a cheater and spy on them to find out? That's unacceptable behavior and I would terminate a relationship over that. "Nightmare' listed things like staying 4-5 nights a week away from home, hiding communications, etc.

 

I would promote the idea that it's best to simply put your cards on the table, tell him or her that you need to spend more time together and share the details of your daily lives with each other. You're essentially saying "I want to share my life with you" - if they refuse, well there is your answer.

 

In my case I'm always clear about sharing everything including explaining precisely what things I cannot share and why. I'ts not complex and it should be expected in a relationship.

 

The point is - no one who is emotionally healthy, is going to enter a long term, committed relationship thinking their partner will cheat on them, thus no one, emotionally healthy, is going to snoop or be suspicious unless they are given good reason.

 

When that happens, i.e. when a WS starts acting suspciously and the BS notices, s/he, invariably, will bring it up with their WS and more often than not, the WS will deny any issue and turn it around on the BS, often accusing them of paranoia, insecurity and other 'broken' traits. Thus the BS has no option but to act on his/her own in dealing with a relationship that is 'broken'.

 

Now in your world, after that converstation takes place, the BS should either just suck it up and carry on as before, or leave. Sometimes one of those things does happen, but because most people love their partner and as a consequence want their marriage to be happy, they will undertake research in establishing what the problem is and how to fix it and this is something that they have to do on their own as their WS shirked any responsibility - both by having an affair in the first place and then not taking any ownership of the situation when asked by the BS.

 

That's all snooping is - research to understand a problem and trying to fix it. The fixing it could be either by having good reason to leave and never having to wonder 'what if', unlike if they left without doing the research, or being able to confront the WS with their actions and get resolution to the circumstances leading to the affair.

 

clv0116, I am fully aware that nothing will change your mind on this, but you've also made it quite plain that that's got more to do with obstinance than any logic you may have. Black is white.

[clv0116]

It gradually got worse, to a point where i had to start snooping.

 

So what was it like when you decided to start snooping?

[clv0116]

That's all snooping is - research to understand a problem and trying to fix it. The fixing it could be either by having good reason to leave and never having to wonder 'what if', unlike if they left without doing the research, or being able to confront the WS with their actions and get resolution to the circumstances leading to the affair.

 

So you only snoop after you're sure there's an affair? Because you don't list finding out they're NOT having an affair as a possible outcome.

[seibert253]

In my instance snooping was nothing more than gathering evidence to what I already suspected.

 

I had a pretty good idea of what was going on and confronted WW about it. This was prior to gathering any evidence. I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, own up to what she was doing, and recommit to our marriage. She did not. Her reaction was like most cheaters, lies, anger toward me for "suspecting", "we're just friends", "he's someone I just talk to", yada, yada, yada.

 

Now I could have put my blinders on and accepted her explainations, but my gut kept telling me something is amiss. So I went into evidence gathering phase.

 

When I confronted her the second time, I had copies of emails, texts, and credit card receipts. Her head dropped, she went silent, then I knew.

 

Point is, without evidence I'm convinced my wife would have never admitted to what was going on, and either would still be involved with the OM, or left me altogether.

 

My decision to "snoop" was very hard. My emotional side was telling me this wasn't right, while my logical side showed me I deserved to know the truth.

 

The decision to "snoop" I feel is a personal one. I'm not going to say it is right in each circumstance, because each is different. All I'm saying in my case it was the right decision, and in the long run all worked well.

[Owl]

So you only snoop after you're sure there's an affair? Because you don't list finding out they're NOT having an affair as a possible outcome.

 

Again...you're just deliberately choosing not to "get it".

 

By the time most of us finally broke down enough to snoop...it was obvious that something MAJOR was going on...and given that we're all here on the infidelity board, how hard would it be to infer that what we all found WAS an affair?

 

If we hadn't found an affair...we wouldn't be here. DUH!!!

 

So...what you're not tracking is that most of us didn't find "nothing"...so no one lists anything about that so much.

 

But, my thought is that the vast majority of people who are going to read this thread, and enter this discussion are all going to find something if they snoop. For the same reasons the rest of us did...because they've started to suspect something, and they're here on this forum. Again...DUH!!!

 

So why are you being deliberately obtuse on this? Is your only goal here to pick a fight?

 

Can you give me a solid, step by step, WORKABLE method for figuring out if your spouse is having an affair (assuming you suspect one) that doesn't entail snooping in some fashion?

[Reggie]

I cannot follow civ's logic ,either. Most of us were in denial for a good long time, being gaslit despite our instincts telling us something was badly amiss.

There is a phenomenon I've read about called the lie bias. Essentially, it causes a Bs to believe some really obvious untruths due to the natural inclination to accept things from a person we believe we can trust. If we heard the stories our WSs were telling us from a friend describing his spouses stories, we would never buy them. But, with this inclination in place, we let a lot go for way too long.

At some point, the denial does not work anymore and we overcome this bias. That is when snooping begins, a natural activity to ferret out the truth and reconcile our life expieriences with the crap we are being fed.

It seems to be, really, the only way to uncover what is going on. It has nothing to do with not being a trusting person, in general. It seems, if anything, most BSs were overly trusting.

[clv0116]

.... Her reaction was like most cheaters, lies, anger toward me for "suspecting", "we're just friends", "he's someone I just talk to", yada, yada, yada.

 

Now I could have put my blinders on and accepted her explainations....

 

Those are not explanations, they are excuses. Why would any man accept those sort of responses from a woman? Those are the issues, right there in front of you out of her own mouth so what more do you need?

[Owl]

Those are not explanations, they are excuses. Why would any man accept those sort of responses from a woman? Those are the issues, right there in front of you out of her own mouth so what more do you need?

 

So what should he have done? Slapped her down and beat her until she told the truth?

 

You're right...they were excuses. I'd agree that accepting them would be foolish...nor do I think he DID accept them. He continued to challenge them, and she continued to lie.

 

HOW was he supposed to get from the excuses to the truth?

[Reggie]

Snooping is a manifestation of not accepting the lies. Seems like the logical thing to do.